On February 27 2010 13:07 Kazius wrote: WTF? Snow? AGAIN?
... They have Movie, EffOrt, Iris, sKyHigh, and Savior. Hell, even Hydra is better.
Why not? Snow's not bad by any stretch, and by playing him in a relatively unpressurized situation, he'll get better and better for CJ. He did pretty solidly in the last qualifiers. Also, Hydra is good, bro.
Kal holds; but I think he came out with like 1 less goon. Reavers and shuttle out for both. KAL SNIPES BOTH BIG MISTAKE FROM SNOW. Kal's reaver still alive. For some reason not babysat by his shuttle.
Looks like snow's reavers got killed fairly quickly? Snow in kals nat, but not enough goons to win. Sniped a couple gas probes. Backup goons from both. Kal has 4 goon sin his base from his new gates, didn't rally them.
On February 27 2010 13:50 koreasilver wrote: It's so painful being a CJ fan this Winner's League season.
they havent lost yet lol, its only 1-1
Yeah, sure they haven't lose this one. But they are doing terribly in WL... Last year they were cruising through the WL and this year... Disappointing performance.
Snow looked like he was rushing his attacks and not managing them properly. Hopefully Movie can take out kal here, because kal with momentum is dangerous.
On February 27 2010 13:57 dukethegold wrote: Umm...other than Effort, CJ doesn't have any vP specialists. I guess Movie is the best they got if they want to reserve Effort.
Effort used to be P killer. But who knows in what shape is he now. He's been playing like crap recently... CJ better hope Movie win. Otherwise they will be in big troubles.
On February 27 2010 13:57 dukethegold wrote: Umm...other than Effort, CJ doesn't have any vP specialists. I guess Movie is the best they got if they want to reserve Effort.
The problem is that STX players are kinda good vZ.
I'm guessing Effort is slumping so much vT that they want to keep him for Calm and not risk him getting taken out by Hwasin or even Frozen if he beat Kal.
On February 27 2010 13:57 dukethegold wrote: Umm...other than Effort, CJ doesn't have any vP specialists. I guess Movie is the best they got if they want to reserve Effort.
Effort used to be P killer. But who knows in what shape is he now. He's been playing like crap recently... CJ better hope Movie win. Otherwise they will be in big troubles.
Effort's slump makes no sense. Just very recently, he destroyed both Jangbi and Stork in WL. Now he's slumping hardcore with losses against Hyun, Bogus, MVP and Lomo. What the hell?
Whether he's slumping or not vP has yet to be tested. His loss against Stats doesn't mean much as Stat's build was the Goon rush one that Movie used to defeat Jaedong.
The first observer misses the DTs, but Kal has blocked the small ramp with goons. DTs have to go around and the second observer is out in time to stop them!
Movie starts warping in his fourth at bottom right but a ninja strike force of 4 zealots and a DT denies it! Movie almost loses his main nexus to a DT drop as well.
Somehow movie wins that battle? WTF. Kal had high ground AND more storms. Movie pushing into kals nat now? But good storms melt the remaining units and his backup goons come out.
25 kill templar lmfao. He should really get rid of that. Kal moving his army around. Not sure what' hes doing. Patrol move? Goin to kill movie's little 7 zealot 1 archon army. Wow finally nice storms from movie. Kal has too many goons though.
3 base each atm but kal losing his third, storms clear out Movie;s natural. Movie with zlot-archon while Kal is really goon heavy. HUGE STORM ON THE GOON CLUMP, Kal still rolls over movie
Movie kills Kals 3rd gas, but he loses a bunch of probes to storm drops. Big army rolling out for Kal, working its way out onto the map. If Movie holds it off he's in decent shape.
I'll give movie props for going up that hill and taking out 2 expos. But he definately threw that away after getting owned by that one templar with 20+ kills.
Kal kills movies base but cant defend his own. he still has a min-only that Movie doesnt though. no more arbiter =( guess its not worth it with armies this small now
On February 27 2010 14:21 Redshirt wrote: Kal seems to hve an arbiter for whatever reason.
arbiters are a fucking awesome unit? HUGE STASIS ON ABOUT 10 ZLOTS Thats why he has an arbiter
I'm really not sure the resources invested into that single arbiter was really worth it. Stargate + arbiter tribunal + stasis upgrade + the arbiter itself doesn't come cheap (600 minerals and 800 gas).
Movie is a good protoss, he has creative builts against Terran and Zergs, but in PvP he just seems lost and can't seem to do anything creative when it comes to micro or strategy.
On February 27 2010 14:21 Redshirt wrote: Kal seems to hve an arbiter for whatever reason.
arbiters are a fucking awesome unit? HUGE STASIS ON ABOUT 10 ZLOTS Thats why he has an arbiter
I'm really not sure the resources invested into that single arbiter was really worth it. Stargate + arbiter tribunal + stasis upgrade + the arbiter itself doesn't come cheap (600 minerals and 800 gas).
army is cloaked so you get free hits until he brings up an observer he has to worry about you sniping his one and only observer stasis took 10 zlots out of the battle (1000 mins) and all of the goons meat shields im pretty sure arbs are worth it, it just never gets there, just like queen/defiler in zvz
Effort is still very good vP so he has a good chance of winning, but he'll just get rolled by Hwasin or Frozen afterwards. Then CJ sends out Skyhigh to deal with the Terrran, and he gets finished off by Calm. 4-3 STXXX
On February 27 2010 14:37 snowdrift86 wrote: Effort is still very good vP so he has a good chance of winning, but he'll just get rolled by Hwasin or Frozen afterwards.
On February 27 2010 14:27 numLoCK wrote: GG from Movie. He kinda got rolled
except for that push in the middle. he got manhandled in that battle, lost his 3rd and 4th as a result. but made up for it with great templar drops
Nah, Kal was just screwing around by that point. In the rep they showed that right after Kal lost that fight, he already had 2 units queued in all his gateways, AND he had an arbiter building.
He easily could have pumped out 4-5 archons with the money he threw into that nonsense arbiter tech and totally raped that fight vs movie, but I think he was too busy goofing off because he knew he was ahead.
Actually, I have no clue at all why Kal went arbiter tech lol. It really doesn't make any sense.
On February 27 2010 14:37 snowdrift86 wrote: Effort is still very good vP so he has a good chance of winning, but he'll just get rolled by Hwasin or Frozen afterwards.
Also Kal is not that strong against zergs.
No, it's not... Kal's PvZ used to be one of the beastliest. Him, Free, and Bisu used to be the most solid PvZers... He had July as a practice partner. PvP is Kal's weakest matchup. He's very inconsistent in it.
On February 27 2010 14:27 numLoCK wrote: GG from Movie. He kinda got rolled
except for that push in the middle. he got manhandled in that battle, lost his 3rd and 4th as a result. but made up for it with great templar drops
Nah, Kal was just screwing around by that point. In the rep they showed that right after Kal lost that fight, he already had 2 units queued in all his gateways, AND he had an arbiter building.
He easily could have pumped out 4-5 archons with the money he threw into that nonsense arbiter tech and totally raped that fight vs movie, but I think he was too busy goofing off because he knew he was ahead.
Actually, I have no clue at all why Kal went arbiter tech lol. It really doesn't make any sense.
Wasn't arbiter tech used in old school PvP in the late game? I have some vague memory of some huge 200/200 battles with arbiters from years ago but can't remember hen and where as I wasn't following sc really closely that time.
[QUOTE]On February 27 2010 14:40 StorkHwaiting wrote: [QUOTE]On February 27 2010 14:38 FireGuyX wrote: [QUOTE]On February 27 2010 14:37 snowdrift86 wrote: Effort is still very good vP so he has a good chance of winning, but he'll just get rolled by Hwasin or Frozen afterwards.[/QUOTE] PvP is Kal's weakest matchup. He's very inconsistent in it. [/QUOTE]
On February 27 2010 14:27 numLoCK wrote: GG from Movie. He kinda got rolled
except for that push in the middle. he got manhandled in that battle, lost his 3rd and 4th as a result. but made up for it with great templar drops
Nah, Kal was just screwing around by that point. In the rep they showed that right after Kal lost that fight, he already had 2 units queued in all his gateways, AND he had an arbiter building.
He easily could have pumped out 4-5 archons with the money he threw into that nonsense arbiter tech and totally raped that fight vs movie, but I think he was too busy goofing off because he knew he was ahead.
Actually, I have no clue at all why Kal went arbiter tech lol. It really doesn't make any sense.
Wasn't arbiter tech used in old school PvP in the late game? I have some vague memory of some huge 200/200 battles with arbiters from years ago but can't remember hen and where as I wasn't following sc really closely that time.
It's because Kal is all about style, and arbitors pvp is very style
Kal kills Effort's hydra den. Goon range seems to be finished and he's going to try to brank the front now! Kills a hatch, but there's a lurker there. No obs visible for Kal.
Nice plague. gets all of the zealots. But storm too good T_T
Ultras out. 3-2? I couldn't tell.
Effort at least has a hatch building at every possible expo. Not that they're actually building anything. Drop does nothing. Cows get owned by reavers.
Drop kills the nexus. He smartly picks up the ultras and HES DORPPING IN THE MAIN NOW? I'm sorta loling. Unfortunately 3 shuttles full of reavers arrive and kill everything.
Kal's mining out at his third. Effort's doing a good job of making kal walk bakc and forth with his army but Kal's having no more of that. Giant ball of death moving out.
I DONT THINK KAL HAS ANYPLACE TO PUT MORE GATEWAYS BUT EFFORTS LOOSING ALL HIS TECH IN HIS MAIN DOESNT MATTER KAL"S ARMY GETS DESTROYED BECAUSE HE HAS NO BACKUP
On February 27 2010 15:05 muramasa wrote: Kal's army is invincible right now, but he hasn't really done any damage the whole game. He's just killing Effort's shit when he gets attacked.
Okay, he's attacking now. he'll probably completely roll Effort.
Oh man, Effort is countering and killing all of Kal's bases.
I dont know why but this post seemed like the lol/turning point of the match
On February 27 2010 15:09 muramasa wrote: Effort seemed to be playing so bad there. I guess Kal just spent way too long being passive and let Effort build unlimited amounts of Ultras.
I didn't think Kal was being that passive... but I guess once you've got that many ultras there's not much a toss can do.
On February 27 2010 15:09 muramasa wrote: Effort seemed to be playing so bad there. I guess Kal just spent way too long being passive and let Effort build unlimited amounts of Ultras.
I didn't think Kal was being that passive... but I guess once you've got that many ultras there's not much a toss can do.
He did some nice harassment early on. But after his DT drop failed, he never really hurt Effort after that.
Effort did a good job of making Kal run back and forth with his army and denying his fifth with that sneaky 3 ultra drop in the main and diversion at the third, and when Kal got frustrated effort went and destroyed 1 of his 2 mining bases. Then Guardians! Saved Effort's third and fourth with the wall off at the choke.
I'm not sure if Kal turning back would've saved the game, but it sure didn't win him the game.
I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
Kal made the mistake of abandoning all defense for offense.
Effort made the smart decision of shutting down Kal's production line to stop reinforcement and just outlast Kal's doom gas heavy tech army with sunkens and guerrilla hit and run tactics. Guardians were actually used effectively as defense. Great game!
On February 27 2010 15:12 NeoOmega wrote: I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
I think the closest thing I've seen to Zerg beating a huge army like that is ych[z-zone] vs free last preseason. But I'd never seen Zerg actually WIN that.
On February 27 2010 15:09 muramasa wrote: Effort seemed to be playing so bad there. I guess Kal just spent way too long being passive and let Effort build unlimited amounts of Ultras.
I didn't think Kal was being that passive... but I guess once you've got that many ultras there's not much a toss can do.
He did some nice harassment early on. But after his DT drop failed, he never really hurt Effort after that.
I agree. Kal had a much greater opportunity for harassment that he never took. Kal just ended up walking around the middle of the map trying to play content off of 4 base toss vs 6 base (and gas) Zerg. It just doesn't work that way man
On February 27 2010 15:12 NeoOmega wrote: I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
I always thought 3/3 Tank/Goli/Vessel was far worse.
On February 27 2010 15:12 NeoOmega wrote: I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
I always thought 3/3 Tank/Goli/Vessel was far worse.
I'd tend to agree if Terran micros good enough. Vessel is the real imba part :/
modesty's only good at zvz. specially planned 10hatch9pool in anticipation of a stupidly aggressive kwanro. he plays pretty smart in zvz, wouldn't be too surprised if he took the match.
Basically, EffOrt needed a fifth base, or else Kal was going to starve him out on even bases. There was a stretch where Kal was moving back and forth, and EffOrt was constantly expanding/canceling in desperation. EffOrt actually snuck a drone past a group of zealots that Kal had and was able to expand to 10 and when Kal finally pulled that group of zealots back and saw the expo morphing, EffOrt had enough lings to defend it. Because of this, EffOrt can also expand to 9.
At this point, Kal needs to go an kill off these expos again. EffOrt however does a heroic job with low cost ling/defiler drops to keep Kal occupied, while sniping zealots with lings, and saving some of his ultras. This was crucial for EffOrt to keep attacking, and keep moving. EffOrt delayed long enough, and got lucky with a drop at 4 while Kal's army was out of position. His feint towards the main, and then second attack on the warping in nexus at 4 was crucial, and suddenly, EffOrt was at 6 bases, and Kal at 4.
Kal has an unstoppable army though, with a ridiculous amount of archons/zealots to eat up the ultra/ling/defiler combo that EffOrt prefers. Kal turns to attack EffOrt's fifth and sixth, but EffOrt counter attacks in three different places with the ultras he was able to preserve and produce while delaying. This was pretty brilliant in an of itself. but Kal knows all he needs to do is cannonwhore at his last remaining expo, and sit tight with a few hts and a reaver there, while his ball of death kills everything.
He goes for the 11 and 12 expos, and EffOrt pulls out just enough lings to delay for the morphing guardians. Suddenly, Kal's ball of death is going to take a huge hit if he commits to the top base. He does the only thing he can do, go kill off EffOrt's nat and main, but at this point, he simply can't answer the guardians, and it's obviously gg.
On February 27 2010 15:12 NeoOmega wrote: I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
I always thought 3/3 Tank/Goli/Vessel was far worse.
I'd tend to agree if Terran micros good enough. Vessel is the real imba part :/
On February 27 2010 15:12 NeoOmega wrote: I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
I always thought 3/3 Tank/Goli/Vessel was far worse.
I'd tend to agree if Terran micros good enough. Vessel is the real imba part :/
On February 27 2010 15:22 tree.hugger wrote: Basically, EffOrt needed a fifth base, or else + Show Spoiler +
Kal was going to starve him out on even bases. There was a stretch where Kal was moving back and forth, and EffOrt was constantly expanding/canceling in desperation. EffOrt actually snuck a drone past a group of zealots that Kal had and was able to expand to 10 and when Kal finally pulled that group of zealots back and saw the expo morphing, EffOrt had enough lings to defend it. Because of this, EffOrt can also expand to 9.
At this point, Kal needs to go an kill off these expos again. EffOrt however does a heroic job with low cost ling/defiler drops to keep Kal occupied, while sniping zealots with lings, and saving some of his ultras. This was crucial for EffOrt to keep attacking, and keep moving. EffOrt delayed long enough, and got lucky with a drop at 4 while Kal's army was out of position. His feint towards the main, and then second attack on the warping in nexus at 4 was crucial, and suddenly, EffOrt was at 6 bases, and Kal at 4.
Kal has an unstoppable army though, with a ridiculous amount of archons/zealots to eat up the ultra/ling/defiler combo that EffOrt prefers. Kal turns to attack EffOrt's fifth and sixth, but EffOrt counter attacks in three different places with the ultras he was able to preserve and produce while delaying. This was pretty brilliant in an of itself. but Kal knows all he needs to do is cannonwhore at his last remaining expo, and sit tight with a few hts and a reaver there, while his ball of death kills everything.
He goes for the 11 and 12 expos, and EffOrt pulls out just enough lings to delay for the morphing guardians. Suddenly, Kal's ball of death is going to take a huge hit if he commits to the top base. He does the only thing he can do, go kill off EffOrt's nat and main, but at this point, he simply can't answer the guardians, and it's obviously gg.
WOW really nice explanation. i agree with everything.
On February 27 2010 15:12 NeoOmega wrote: I think Archon/Reaver/High Templar is as close to imbalanced as starcraft gets. Zerg Just cant directly engage it. Effort doing a pimp job of being everywhere and cutting Kal appart.
I always thought 3/3 Tank/Goli/Vessel was far worse.
I'd tend to agree if Terran micros good enough. Vessel is the real imba part :/
On February 27 2010 15:31 Fredflintstone wrote: one day.. skyhigh is going to break out with amazing tvz/tvp. his style will of course be iris(in his prime)-like
That would be pretty good, except the TvP part. Iris TvZ was so sick
On February 27 2010 15:32 QM wrote: ZvZ now really balance,that's why JD and Effort not good as last WL season
mirror matchups have always been balanced =.=
Not really, although it may seem intuitive to think so.
I think QM meant it in a different way (Jaedong was just so ahead of the curve, that JvZ was imbalanced) but a match-up which is determined by the opening to builds to such a degree is anything but balanced. It's balanced in the way that rock/paper/scissors is 'balanced' but not to the degree that arm wrestling is balanced, given two totally even competitors.
On February 27 2010 15:42 meeple wrote: Skyhigh is the last hope for CJ... thankfully Modesty is rather mediocre
If Modesty can't take him Calm will easily
I'm not really into SkyHigh, but as a Calm fan, I can say I have very little confidence in his ZvT at the moment. It's actually been quite poor this season.
On February 27 2010 15:42 meeple wrote: Skyhigh is the last hope for CJ... thankfully Modesty is rather mediocre
If Modesty can't take him Calm will easily
I'm not really into SkyHigh, but as a Calm fan, I can say I have very little confidence in his ZvT at the moment. It's actually been quite poor this season.
Yeah, but skyhigh's tvz is always bad.
Skyhigh moves out with first group of mnm. Sunken break? Nope. Doesn't have enough and he knows it. Modesty hiding some lings at the back of his base too. Mutas building. Skyhigh should back off. Yo he even scanned that. Why does he go in still only to get raped by like 24 lings.
Now hes fucked.
I know we're not supposed to call early... but hes pulling all his scvs. Shit gets owned.
Don't worry CJ fans.... nothing lasts forever and this little period of turmoil and frustration will end and I'm sure we will see our heroes rise again (hopefully)
That was such a bad attack by Skyhigh. He may not have seen the flanking lings, but didn't he see a ton of lings in the corner with the scan? MnMnF is strong but not that strong.
Skyhigh saw half of the flanking lings. Scanned the masses of lings at the corner (which was already more than enough IMO). STILL attacks, even without the few reinforcements he had coming.
I don't know how his TvZ is so bad. Maybe it's just because he gets raped by the CJ zergs all the time and never gets good at it.
skyhigh has gone from reverse all-killing hwaseung in the previous winners league finals and not to mention killing jd many times during that period... to this
On February 27 2010 16:09 lFrostmourne wrote: skyhigh has gone from reverse all-killing hwaseung in the previous winners league finals and not to mention killing jd many times during that period... to this
Reverse all killing Hwaseung isn't really anything special when you actually pay attention to the actual details. Skyhigh beat Jaedong's 4pool, crushed two Oz protoss players who weren't Backho, and then played the only matchup he's actually good at.
Many of the CJ cheese builds used to snipe are probably Much's builds because I seriously doubt guys like Skyhigh are even smart enough to dream of using the floating barracks trick + fake bunker rush against Jaedong. Without Much, they've lost much of their sniping ability and thus are a pretty weak team since the vast majority of players are pretty much autolose in certain matchups and they lack a solid ace player like Jaedong or Flash.
On February 27 2010 16:09 lFrostmourne wrote: skyhigh has gone from reverse all-killing hwaseung in the previous winners league finals and not to mention killing jd many times during that period... to this
Reverse all killing Hwaseung isn't really anything special when you actually pay attention to the actual details. Skyhigh beat Jaedong's 4pool, crushed two Oz protoss players who weren't Backho, and then played the only matchup he's actually good at.
Many of the CJ cheese builds used to snipe are probably Much's builds because I seriously doubt guys like Skyhigh are even smart enough to dream of using the floating barracks trick + fake bunker rush against Jaedong. Without Much, they've lost much of their sniping ability and thus are a pretty weak team since the vast majority of players are pretty much autolose in certain matchups and they lack a solid ace player like Jaedong or Flash.
it was special, it was the damn finals. talk about being clutch
Honestly yeah it was clutch but come on, it was Spear and Young. The most impressive thing he did was not fail to nerves, and I'm saying this as a fan of both teams.
On February 27 2010 16:44 dukethegold wrote: Has the loss of Savior got to their nerves?
Considering how bad they were doing to the WL before Savior was announced to be removed as Captain and as an A-teamer, I'd say the "loss" of Savior has nothing to do with tonight's performance.
On February 27 2010 16:39 Kyuukyuu wrote: Spear and Young.
Honestly yeah it was clutch but come on, it was Spear and Young. The most impressive thing he did was not fail to nerves, and I'm saying this as a fan of both teams.
doesn't matter. The fact that Spear and Young are playing in a Finals match says a lot about the atmosphere at the time. Stop trying to discredit the guy.
On February 27 2010 16:39 Kyuukyuu wrote: Spear and Young.
Honestly yeah it was clutch but come on, it was Spear and Young. The most impressive thing he did was not fail to nerves, and I'm saying this as a fan of both teams.
doesn't matter. The fact that Spear and Young are playing in a Finals match says a lot about the atmosphere at the time. Stop trying to discredit the guy.
Skyhigh is doing a pretty good job of discrediting himself.
On February 27 2010 16:09 lFrostmourne wrote: skyhigh has gone from reverse all-killing hwaseung in the previous winners league finals and not to mention killing jd many times during that period... to this
Reverse all killing Hwaseung isn't really anything special when you actually pay attention to the actual details. Skyhigh beat Jaedong's 4pool, crushed two Oz protoss players who weren't Backho, and then played the only matchup he's actually good at.
Many of the CJ cheese builds used to snipe are probably Much's builds because I seriously doubt guys like Skyhigh are even smart enough to dream of using the floating barracks trick + fake bunker rush against Jaedong. Without Much, they've lost much of their sniping ability and thus are a pretty weak team since the vast majority of players are pretty much autolose in certain matchups and they lack a solid ace player like Jaedong or Flash.
it was special, it was the damn finals. talk about being clutch
Yeah and the Oz players, Hiya especially, weren't under similar conditions. Once Skyhigh got rid of Jaedong, who 4 pooled, it was game considering he would either play scrubs or against a terran who is much weaker than him at TvT.
On February 27 2010 16:39 Kyuukyuu wrote: Spear and Young.
Honestly yeah it was clutch but come on, it was Spear and Young. The most impressive thing he did was not fail to nerves, and I'm saying this as a fan of both teams.
doesn't matter. The fact that Spear and Young are playing in a Finals match says a lot about the atmosphere at the time. Stop trying to discredit the guy.
It does matter because the Oz players were in a similar situation, especially Hiya. Imagine the pressure Hiya had when he had to play one of the best TvTers in a matchup he's generally been pretty poor at.
On February 27 2010 16:27 Ace wrote: seriously that was a very worthless post. Gj undermining the SH's and the rest of CJ's ability.
I really don't think so. Their current lineup does better in normal proleague than Winner's League since you actually know who you are playing in normal proleague and thus can prepare accordingly.
Let's look at the big three of CJ:
Movie is better than the majority of protoss players at PvZ but is pretty ordinary at PvT and PvP. OK you can bring the EVER OSL example here but he had a pretty easy route to the finals. In the Ro16, all he had to do was beat Go.go and Pusan to get into he Ro8. In the Ro8 he had to beat Zero who is not only extremely streaky but also prone to choking extremely hard in high pressure situations. In the Ro4 he had to beat Shine who has the worst hive tech play out of all the A team zergs.
Skyhigh is one of the best TvTers but is extremely shit in TvP and TvZ. If your team has a good zerg or protoss player, just send him out and Skyhigh will pretty much lose automatically.
Effort is a solid ace option but doesn't even compare to the likes of Jaedong or Flash. He's slumping too and the fact that all zergs basically play ZvZ well these days means to get rid of him you just throw all the zergs you have at him.
Yeah, you have Iris (who is far too aggressive), Savior (a really watered down Effort these days), and Hydra and Snow (both are no way near as good as Effort or Movie) but you can't send all this depth out because there's only 7 sets max in Winner's League and 5 sets max in normal proleague.
They're doing extremely badly in Winner's League because not only have they lost most of their sniping ability, most of their players are extremely easy to snipe assuming your proleague team has good players of all three matchups.
On February 27 2010 16:09 lFrostmourne wrote: skyhigh has gone from reverse all-killing hwaseung in the previous winners league finals and not to mention killing jd many times during that period... to this
Reverse all killing Hwaseung isn't really anything special when you actually pay attention to the actual details. Skyhigh beat Jaedong's 4pool, crushed two Oz protoss players who weren't Backho, and then played the only matchup he's actually good at.
Many of the CJ cheese builds used to snipe are probably Much's builds because I seriously doubt guys like Skyhigh are even smart enough to dream of using the floating barracks trick + fake bunker rush against Jaedong. Without Much, they've lost much of their sniping ability and thus are a pretty weak team since the vast majority of players are pretty much autolose in certain matchups and they lack a solid ace player like Jaedong or Flash.
it was special, it was the damn finals. talk about being clutch
Yeah and the Oz players, Hiya especially, weren't under similar conditions. Once Skyhigh got rid of Jaedong, who 4 pooled, it was game considering he would either play scrubs or against a terran who is much weaker than him at TvT.
On February 27 2010 16:39 Kyuukyuu wrote: Spear and Young.
Honestly yeah it was clutch but come on, it was Spear and Young. The most impressive thing he did was not fail to nerves, and I'm saying this as a fan of both teams.
doesn't matter. The fact that Spear and Young are playing in a Finals match says a lot about the atmosphere at the time. Stop trying to discredit the guy.
It does matter because the Oz players were in a similar situation, especially Hiya. Imagine the pressure Hiya had when he had to play one of the best TvTers in a matchup he's generally been pretty poor at.
On February 27 2010 16:27 Ace wrote: seriously that was a very worthless post. Gj undermining the SH's and the rest of CJ's ability.
I really don't think so. Their current lineup does better in normal proleague than Winner's League since you actually know who you are playing in normal proleague and thus can prepare accordingly.
Let's look at the big three of CJ:
Movie is better than the majority of protoss players at PvZ but is pretty ordinary at PvT and PvP. OK you can bring the EVER OSL example here but he had a pretty easy route to the finals. In the Ro16, all he had to do was beat Go.go and Pusan to get into he Ro8. In the Ro8 he had to beat Zero who is not only extremely streaky but also prone to choking extremely hard in high pressure situations. In the Ro4 he had to beat Shine who has the worst hive tech play out of all the A team zergs.
Skyhigh is one of the best TvTers but is extremely shit in TvP and TvZ. If your team has a good zerg or protoss player, just send him out and Skyhigh will pretty much lose automatically.
Effort is a solid ace option but doesn't even compare to the likes of Jaedong or Flash. He's slumping too and the fact that all zergs basically play ZvZ well these days means to get rid of him you just throw all the zergs you have at him.
They're doing extremely badly in Winner's League because not only have they lost most of their sniping ability, most of their players are extremely easy to snipe assuming your proleague team has good players of all three matchups.
Movie defeated Shine before it got even to high tech. Do not discredit his win over the destroyer of both Bisu AND Stork ON THE SAME MAPS.
On February 27 2010 16:09 lFrostmourne wrote: skyhigh has gone from reverse all-killing hwaseung in the previous winners league finals and not to mention killing jd many times during that period... to this
Reverse all killing Hwaseung isn't really anything special when you actually pay attention to the actual details. Skyhigh beat Jaedong's 4pool, crushed two Oz protoss players who weren't Backho, and then played the only matchup he's actually good at.
Many of the CJ cheese builds used to snipe are probably Much's builds because I seriously doubt guys like Skyhigh are even smart enough to dream of using the floating barracks trick + fake bunker rush against Jaedong. Without Much, they've lost much of their sniping ability and thus are a pretty weak team since the vast majority of players are pretty much autolose in certain matchups and they lack a solid ace player like Jaedong or Flash.
it was special, it was the damn finals. talk about being clutch
Yeah and the Oz players, Hiya especially, weren't under similar conditions. Once Skyhigh got rid of Jaedong, who 4 pooled, it was game considering he would either play scrubs or against a terran who is much weaker than him at TvT.
On February 27 2010 16:49 Ace wrote:
On February 27 2010 16:39 Kyuukyuu wrote: Spear and Young.
Honestly yeah it was clutch but come on, it was Spear and Young. The most impressive thing he did was not fail to nerves, and I'm saying this as a fan of both teams.
doesn't matter. The fact that Spear and Young are playing in a Finals match says a lot about the atmosphere at the time. Stop trying to discredit the guy.
It does matter because the Oz players were in a similar situation, especially Hiya. Imagine the pressure Hiya had when he had to play one of the best TvTers in a matchup he's generally been pretty poor at.
On February 27 2010 16:27 Ace wrote: seriously that was a very worthless post. Gj undermining the SH's and the rest of CJ's ability.
I really don't think so. Their current lineup does better in normal proleague than Winner's League since you actually know who you are playing in normal proleague and thus can prepare accordingly.
Let's look at the big three of CJ:
Movie is better than the majority of protoss players at PvZ but is pretty ordinary at PvT and PvP. OK you can bring the EVER OSL example here but he had a pretty easy route to the finals. In the Ro16, all he had to do was beat Go.go and Pusan to get into he Ro8. In the Ro8 he had to beat Zero who is not only extremely streaky but also prone to choking extremely hard in high pressure situations. In the Ro4 he had to beat Shine who has the worst hive tech play out of all the A team zergs.
Skyhigh is one of the best TvTers but is extremely shit in TvP and TvZ. If your team has a good zerg or protoss player, just send him out and Skyhigh will pretty much lose automatically.
Effort is a solid ace option but doesn't even compare to the likes of Jaedong or Flash. He's slumping too and the fact that all zergs basically play ZvZ well these days means to get rid of him you just throw all the zergs you have at him.
They're doing extremely badly in Winner's League because not only have they lost most of their sniping ability, most of their players are extremely easy to snipe assuming your proleague team has good players of all three matchups.
Movie defeated Shine before it got even to high tech. Do not discredit his win over the destroyer of both Bisu AND Stork ON THE SAME MAPS.
Oh please, if you actually watched Stork from the start you should know that Stork loses PvZs in the dumbest ways possible.
As for Bisu, the guy is obviously slumping hard. Heck, he can't even beat Killer right now and that's pretty bad.
I'm going to damn well discredit his wins against Shine. After Shine's wins against Stork and Bisu, it was extremely obvious his later game macro was poor and totally depended on all ins. Unlike Stork or Bisu, neither had the benefit of hindsight like Movie did.
He's mostly right. The top CJ players are too specialized at this point. That's good for proleague but hurts in WL when opposing teams will just send someone in their worst matchup to take them down. And Movie was always overrated -- his PvZ is mostly semi all-ins off of two bases that work well against greedy zergs. In all other respects he's terribly sloppy.
On February 27 2010 17:12 snowdrift86 wrote: He's mostly right. The top CJ players are too specialized at this point. That's good for proleague but hurts in WL when opposing teams will just send someone in their worst matchup to take them down. And Movie was always overrated -- his PvZ is mostly semi all-ins off of two bases that work well against greedy zergs. In all other respects he's terribly sloppy.
His PvZ isn't overrated considering that he always goes for two bases all - ins and it works most of the time it means he is doing something right . While other protosses except for Stork can't win a PvZ if their life depended on it .
The difference between CJ before and now is that before Iris was an all-around beast at that time and now he barely even gets to play , and savior was actually winning some games , even Much was there for strategic advice .
On February 27 2010 17:12 snowdrift86 wrote: He's mostly right. The top CJ players are too specialized at this point. That's good for proleague but hurts in WL when opposing teams will just send someone in their worst matchup to take them down. And Movie was always overrated -- his PvZ is mostly semi all-ins off of two bases that work well against greedy zergs. In all other respects he's terribly sloppy.
His PvZ isn't overrated considering that he always goes for two bases all - ins and it works most of the time it means he is doing something right . While other protosses except for Stork can't win a PvZ if their life depended on it .
The difference between CJ before and now is that before Iris was an all-around beast at that time and now he barely even gets to play , and savior was actually winning some games , even Much was there for strategic advice .
Yeah the younglings aren't doing well with all the pressure.
Especially Iris was damn important with his TvP. Much, Savior and Iris were all three all around beasts while Skyhigh is only good with TvT and Movie with PvZ. Effort slumping hurts CJ a lot.
And CJ fails yet again. I went to bed after I saw Kal losing to Effort but I was pretty sure that STX will take it. CJ is just failing soooo much this WL.
I wonder why is that. They have decent player a yet lose to everyone...
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Snow <Judgement Day> 
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He's saying go to mbc.ferron.pe which isn't working
