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On January 19 2010 01:51 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 01:29 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 18 2010 18:16 darktreb wrote:
I love how StorkHwaiting loves Stork so much that he forgets how TERRIBLE Stork played (if you can even call it that) in three finals until finally salvaging a 4th.
Oh by the way, in that 4th final, Stork also played terribly in 2 of the 5 games, and even in the 5th game that he won he managed not to scout the one expansion on the map where Fantasy had a hidden expo (he never even found it) in spite of being way ahead and checking for hidden expos repeatedly. Fortunately he was too far ahead to allow yet another 5th game choke job catch up to him. It's a good thing Flash GGPlayed himself out of that OSl because he would have beaten Fantasy in the BO5 and Stork too.
My point is simply this - Stork was an S-class player when he lost to Bisu (the legendary goon range game is an all time great game 5 choke job), he was an S-class player when he got crushed by Jaedong, and he was an S-class player when he got absolutely MURDERED by Flash.
Movie is not an S-class player yet in my opinion, but to base that off of not playing perfectly in a final and acting as if Stork and Bisu would have is ridiculous. Especially STORK who choked away THREE finals in which he came in as probably the favorite. Stork is a great player but if anything he is proof that just because you're an elite S-class player doesn't mean you're immune to playing well below (or in Stork's case, well, well, well, well, well below) your level in a final.
I didn't even get into Bisu vs Mind.... Movie didn't even make it to game 5. What are you talking about? Also, Stork didn't play terrible in 2 of the 5 games. He got caught by strats he wasn't prepared for. It happens to anyone in a bo5. Your point should be this. Stork vs Bisu was close. Stork vs JD was close. Stork vs Flash was not at all close, but it was because Stork and Flash had just played a very close series in the Star Invitational. Stork went into the OSL finals so screwed in the head by Flash's mind games. And Stork vs Fantasy was close, with Stork prevailing. Since then, Fantasy has more than shown he is a legit top tier player. So all you've really done is say Stork played plenty of close series versus other S-class players but lost due to a few dumb mistakes that were out of character. Movie vs Flash on the other hand wasn't lost on one crucial choke mistake or obviously playing below Movie's normal skill level. Does anyone here think Movie choked? I doubt it. He just played at his normal level and got curbstomped. That's the difference. Movie is NOT a great player and he wasn't playing well below his level in the finals. He was playing the same as he always does in his PvT's and stinking butt. he did not play at his normal level. his normal level is sub 50 percent winning rate against Terran; he played against the best player on the earth and showed amazing play in 2 out of the 4 games (games 1 and 3). he was not curbstomped; that is your non-authoritative opinion that you're asserting for whatever biased reason. most people, including the commentators as well as flash, found his play to be high level. and it's fine that you have an opinion, but to assert it as some sort of fact is idiotic; you are not the lone genius withstanding the mob of ignorance -- in this case you are wrong.
He got curbstomped. Flash is being polite. The commentators are doing their job hyping the series.
He didn't show amazing play. Game 1 he lost even though Flash LET him expand like mad by never pushing out.
Game 3 he won because Flash used a bad strat on EotS.
It doesn't take a genius to see this.
And actually, I don't get why you're trying to use a ton of other people to buttress your opinion. What I see in the thread is the vast majority of people agreeing that Movie was nowhere close and then there are a few Movie fanboys screaming he's the next S-class protoss.
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Simple, movie got raped playing standard as expected, he was never close to the tanks. Sure, there was some good strategy thought out by him but it was never coming close. Mostly sub-standard execution and he did not deserve to win. His play can't be compared to stork and bisu. Until then movie/effort/leta who only play strictly textbook games are not S class but can perform well for proleague. Now and then my s-class mindset on stork,bisu,jd,flash never changed. Looking at the past few finals there was always rookie playing in it which is sort of disappointing. Seems the player avoided his worst MU and advanced to the finals.
Game 1 and 2 really dissappointed me. Game 2 some harrass reserved for random proleague game but not for osl final, dt reaver double tech should've made gg right away but he lost them for nothing. Flash just expand every time knowing its safe as movie is inferior in large army control.
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I dont understand why people keep ranking Bisu so high though. Hes only done well in PL recently....
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movie, effort and LETA play "textbook"?
:/
Sometimes I seriously wonder about this place.
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Effort does play really standard. Probably the most "textbook" Zerg player around, it's just that his style of play is rather reminiscent of old-school Zerg, which differentiates him from other Zerg players.
Saying that LETA only plays textbook games is mad lols though.
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I'd say Movie is definitely not textbook either. But w/e, these threads always devolve into weird "facts" being thrown around.
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effort does play standard but his management and mechanics is very impressive reminiscent savior
leta and movie don't play so standard just most times
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On January 19 2010 02:43 dogabutila wrote:
I dont understand why people keep ranking Bisu so high though. Hes only done well in PL recently....
maybe cause he's Bisu aka the best protoss player thats ever lived? hes not playing not playing at his best atm, but hes better than most people regardless. Basically its a judgement based on skill rather than performance cause we all know if he plays like he can very few people can beat him.
Flash will not become the 5th best Terran if he has a bad month while Fantasy, Really, Sea, and Leta all tear it up at the same time.
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On January 19 2010 02:43 dogabutila wrote:
I dont understand why people keep ranking Bisu so high though. Hes only done well in PL recently....
That doesn't change the fact that if Bisu were playing vs Flash in this OSL he actually would have had a chance at winning. Movie has shown results (albeit mostly vZ), but he hasn't exactly shown spectacular or exemplary play. Sure, he pulled some interesting strategies vs Flash, but most people still see Bisu as a much better player, even if he fails in individual leagues (blame it on the OSL curse).
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Uh, movie played great in these finals, i believe he choked and made several dumb mistakes that cost him several games ( we all know how great flash is at capitalizing on mistakes ). game 2 could have been his if he didn't elevator the troops so early. game 1 he had a big lead and fell apart in mid-game. Either way, movie is a great protoss, his pvt is a little unorthodox, but he still shows strong play.
Btw, how did this thread devolve into an argument about stork?
edit: movie isn't s-class by any means, but he's still very good and relatively new. I thought he played pretty well in this series.
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On January 19 2010 03:59 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 02:43 dogabutila wrote:
I dont understand why people keep ranking Bisu so high though. Hes only done well in PL recently.... maybe cause he's Bisu aka the best protoss player thats ever lived? hes not playing not playing at his best atm, but hes better than most people regardless. Basically its a judgement based on skill rather than performance cause we all know if he plays like he can very few people can beat him. Flash will not become the 5th best Terran if he has a bad month while Fantasy, Really, Sea, and Leta all tear it up at the same time.
Stork JangBi Anytime Nal_rA Reach GARIMTO Grrrr... Much DaezanG BeSt and more...
This series was less about Movie playing bad and more about Flash simply being on another level from everybody else.
On January 19 2010 04:08 stoned_rabbit wrote:
Uh, movie played great in these finals, i believe he choked and made several dumb mistakes that cost him several games ( we all know how great flash is at capitalizing on mistakes ). game 2 could have been his if he didn't elevator the troops so early. game 1 he had a big lead and fell apart in mid-game. Either way, movie is a great protoss, his pvt is a little unorthodox, but he still shows strong play.
Btw, how did this thread devolve into an argument about stork?
I'm not certain but I think he elevatored the units to kill the turret for his DT
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On January 19 2010 04:08 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 03:59 Chen wrote:On January 19 2010 02:43 dogabutila wrote:
I dont understand why people keep ranking Bisu so high though. Hes only done well in PL recently.... maybe cause he's Bisu aka the best protoss player thats ever lived? hes not playing not playing at his best atm, but hes better than most people regardless. Basically its a judgement based on skill rather than performance cause we all know if he plays like he can very few people can beat him. Flash will not become the 5th best Terran if he has a bad month while Fantasy, Really, Sea, and Leta all tear it up at the same time. Stork JangBi Anytime Nal_rA Reach GARIMTO Grrrr... Much DaezanG BeSt and more... This series was less about Movie playing bad and more about Flash simply being on another level from everybody else.
i fail to see the relevance of this list of protss players. The only one that you could reasonably put next to Bisu are Nal_ra and Stork, maybe Garimto i dont know too much about him, the rest are just random toss players that have either won or reached a final or two. Bisu still has the most starleague wins of any toss
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Bisu has the highest winning percentage, the most individual leagues, by far the highest peak ELO (and current ELO). He is the best Protoss ever.
I would still take Bisu over any other Protoss in every matchup, and second place for that isn't particularly close. Just because he's had a rough time in the last couple individual league seasons doesn't mean he's a has-been. It's the same logic people used when Flash was knocked out of the leagues early and people started touting Leta/Fantasy as the premiere Terran (which was never close to true, even if they got further in leagues sometimes).
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Yeah anyone saying Bisu is not the best protoss ever is a fool.
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On January 19 2010 04:27 SimonB wrote:
Bisu has the highest winning percentage, the most individual leagues, by far the highest peak ELO (and current ELO). He is the best Protoss ever.
I would still take Bisu over any other Protoss in every matchup, and second place for that isn't particularly close. Just because he's had a rough time in the last couple individual league seasons doesn't mean he's a has-been. It's the same logic people used when Flash was knocked out of the leagues early and people started touting Leta/Fantasy as the premiere Terran (which was never close to true, even if they got further in leagues sometimes).
ANY matchup? You would pick him over stork's pvt? that's a joke.
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Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup.
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Nal_rA is the best protoss ever.
I mean maybe not statistically or talentwise, but he's totally the best and I refuse to concede otherwise. >:[
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On January 19 2010 05:03 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 04:27 SimonB wrote:
Bisu has the highest winning percentage, the most individual leagues, by far the highest peak ELO (and current ELO). He is the best Protoss ever.
I would still take Bisu over any other Protoss in every matchup, and second place for that isn't particularly close. Just because he's had a rough time in the last couple individual league seasons doesn't mean he's a has-been. It's the same logic people used when Flash was knocked out of the leagues early and people started touting Leta/Fantasy as the premiere Terran (which was never close to true, even if they got further in leagues sometimes). ANY matchup? You would pick him over stork's pvt? that's a joke.
although stork has a better win % verse T, bisu currently has a higher ELO verse T
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doesn't matter. Stork's PvT has always, always been ridiculous.
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On January 19 2010 05:03 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 04:27 SimonB wrote:
Bisu has the highest winning percentage, the most individual leagues, by far the highest peak ELO (and current ELO). He is the best Protoss ever.
I would still take Bisu over any other Protoss in every matchup, and second place for that isn't particularly close. Just because he's had a rough time in the last couple individual league seasons doesn't mean he's a has-been. It's the same logic people used when Flash was knocked out of the leagues early and people started touting Leta/Fantasy as the premiere Terran (which was never close to true, even if they got further in leagues sometimes). ANY matchup? You would pick him over stork's pvt? that's a joke.
nvm
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EPT
