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On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup.
What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year.
Stork has lost to some scrubby Terrans before but the last BoX he lost was a Bo3 to MVP in a non-sanctioned tourney. And that was while he was in MSL and OSL, so it's pretty easy to see why he lost that.
Bisu on the other hand dropped PvT series when they mattered. I'm not saying Bisu's PvT is even close to bad. But I'd tilt it towards Stork in PvT. PvZ is definitely Bisu all the way. And PvP is a toss up between them imo.
But in the end, credit where it's due. Bisu is more clutch and has cleaner mechanics than Stork. He's the top protoss right now, no doubt. Stork's PvZ still needs serious work. He plays it like it's a PvT, which is terribad. And Stork gambles on his PvP's way too much sometimes.
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I still agree Bisu is still PvZ king but Gosl(flying) and Movie are gonna be fighting hard for that title but I am gonna have to give PvP to Stork especially after raping the shit out of Best and Bisu in one day.
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On January 18 2010 16:30 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2010 16:01 MrHoon wrote:So daily esports released an article about who Flash practiced with All KT Protosses and check it out, 3 Top Dragons!  Kal, Stork and JangBi have practiced with Flash rigorously for the final yikes Amazing. Flash sure has some good contacts outside his team.
It's probably more like this:
Stork - Hey there, so our terrans all suck, so uhm, Jangbi and I thought we could help you with OSL practice?
Flash- Uh sorry bro, I'm busy practicing with stats and violet, but maybe I can squeeze in a game or two tomorrow.
Stork- yea cool, I'll be waiting.
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On January 19 2010 05:54 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2010 16:30 Lebesgue wrote:On January 18 2010 16:01 MrHoon wrote:So daily esports released an article about who Flash practiced with All KT Protosses and check it out, 3 Top Dragons! Kal, Stork and JangBi have practiced with Flash rigorously for the final yikes Amazing. Flash sure has some good contacts outside his team. It's probably more like this: Stork - Hey there, so our terrans all suck, so uhm, Jangbi and I thought we could help you with OSL practice? Flash- Uh sorry bro, I'm busy practicing with stats and violet, but maybe I can squeeze in a game or two tomorrow. Stork- yea cool, I'll be waiting.
You're dreaming if you think Flash would want to play with Stats over Stork.
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On January 19 2010 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup. What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year.
did you see that game vs Bogus? proxy 2-fact all-in vs something like 1-gate expand. Pure BO loss that no one could have defended. Plus you mention the 3-0 teamkill but fail to acknowledge that he 2-0'd Fantasy much more recently, which should be rather important if you are focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single loss and trying to magnify them.
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What has this thread become? Of course Stork or Bisu would have done better than Movie in this match, and of couse it doesn't matter because Movie's the one who actually got there.
Movie shows a lot of promise. He didn't push Flash to the limit (like Bisu did in the semis of Bacchus 08), but he put up a much better fight than I was expecting and his strategies were excellent. If he hadn't been completely defeated in the micro battles in games 2 (elevator) and 4 (late bunker rush), the series might have been a lot closer. Game 3 really impressed me; down 0-2 against the best player in the world, he didn't lose his cool, but just played a really strong game.
Basically Movie showed that he has excellent preparation skills and nerves of steel, but that his execution isn't on Flash's level.
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On January 19 2010 05:57 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:54 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On January 18 2010 16:30 Lebesgue wrote:On January 18 2010 16:01 MrHoon wrote:So daily esports released an article about who Flash practiced with All KT Protosses and check it out, 3 Top Dragons! Kal, Stork and JangBi have practiced with Flash rigorously for the final yikes Amazing. Flash sure has some good contacts outside his team. It's probably more like this: Stork - Hey there, so our terrans all suck, so uhm, Jangbi and I thought we could help you with OSL practice? Flash- Uh sorry bro, I'm busy practicing with stats and violet, but maybe I can squeeze in a game or two tomorrow. Stork- yea cool, I'll be waiting. You're dreaming if you think Flash would want to play with Stats over Stork.
You're dreaming if you think any progamer has any amount of practice time with other team players. When he "practiced" with Stork he probably had a game or two with him.
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On January 19 2010 05:57 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:54 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On January 18 2010 16:30 Lebesgue wrote:On January 18 2010 16:01 MrHoon wrote:So daily esports released an article about who Flash practiced with All KT Protosses and check it out, 3 Top Dragons! Kal, Stork and JangBi have practiced with Flash rigorously for the final yikes Amazing. Flash sure has some good contacts outside his team. It's probably more like this: Stork - Hey there, so our terrans all suck, so uhm, Jangbi and I thought we could help you with OSL practice? Flash- Uh sorry bro, I'm busy practicing with stats and violet, but maybe I can squeeze in a game or two tomorrow. Stork- yea cool, I'll be waiting. You're dreaming if you think Flash would want to play with Stats over Stork.
Flash speaks very highly of Stat's PvT in practice. Maybe not.
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On January 19 2010 06:08 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:57 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 05:54 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On January 18 2010 16:30 Lebesgue wrote:On January 18 2010 16:01 MrHoon wrote:So daily esports released an article about who Flash practiced with All KT Protosses and check it out, 3 Top Dragons! Kal, Stork and JangBi have practiced with Flash rigorously for the final yikes Amazing. Flash sure has some good contacts outside his team. It's probably more like this: Stork - Hey there, so our terrans all suck, so uhm, Jangbi and I thought we could help you with OSL practice? Flash- Uh sorry bro, I'm busy practicing with stats and violet, but maybe I can squeeze in a game or two tomorrow. Stork- yea cool, I'll be waiting. You're dreaming if you think Flash would want to play with Stats over Stork. You're dreaming if you think any progamer has any amount of practice time with other team players. When he "practiced" with Stork he probably had a game or two with him.
So like all the interviews where Stork and Flash both say they practiced heavily with each other are just talking about a game or two?
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On January 19 2010 06:01 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup. What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year. did you see that game vs Bogus? proxy 2-fact all-in vs something like 1-gate expand. Pure BO loss that no one could have defended. Plus you mention the 3-0 teamkill but fail to acknowledge that he 2-0'd Fantasy much more recently, which should be rather important if you are focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single loss and trying to magnify them.
I fail to acknowledge it because in that same MSL Bisu lost to Iris right after. Maybe if you were focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single win and trying to magnify them, you'd see that.
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On January 19 2010 05:16 johnnyspazz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:03 d(O.o)a wrote:On January 19 2010 04:27 SimonB wrote:
Bisu has the highest winning percentage, the most individual leagues, by far the highest peak ELO (and current ELO). He is the best Protoss ever.
I would still take Bisu over any other Protoss in every matchup, and second place for that isn't particularly close. Just because he's had a rough time in the last couple individual league seasons doesn't mean he's a has-been. It's the same logic people used when Flash was knocked out of the leagues early and people started touting Leta/Fantasy as the premiere Terran (which was never close to true, even if they got further in leagues sometimes). ANY matchup? You would pick him over stork's pvt? that's a joke. although stork has a better win % verse T, bisu currently has a higher ELO verse T
Your point? that doesn't take into account ability it's merely stats.
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On January 19 2010 06:27 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 06:08 dcberkeley wrote:On January 19 2010 05:57 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 05:54 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On January 18 2010 16:30 Lebesgue wrote:On January 18 2010 16:01 MrHoon wrote:So daily esports released an article about who Flash practiced with All KT Protosses and check it out, 3 Top Dragons! Kal, Stork and JangBi have practiced with Flash rigorously for the final yikes Amazing. Flash sure has some good contacts outside his team. It's probably more like this: Stork - Hey there, so our terrans all suck, so uhm, Jangbi and I thought we could help you with OSL practice? Flash- Uh sorry bro, I'm busy practicing with stats and violet, but maybe I can squeeze in a game or two tomorrow. Stork- yea cool, I'll be waiting. You're dreaming if you think Flash would want to play with Stats over Stork. You're dreaming if you think any progamer has any amount of practice time with other team players. When he "practiced" with Stork he probably had a game or two with him. So like all the interviews where Stork and Flash both say they practiced heavily with each other are just talking about a game or two?
On January 19 2010 06:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 06:01 Chen wrote:On January 19 2010 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup. What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year. did you see that game vs Bogus? proxy 2-fact all-in vs something like 1-gate expand. Pure BO loss that no one could have defended. Plus you mention the 3-0 teamkill but fail to acknowledge that he 2-0'd Fantasy much more recently, which should be rather important if you are focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single loss and trying to magnify them. I fail to acknowledge it because in that same MSL Bisu lost to Iris right after. Maybe if you were focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single win and trying to magnify them, you'd see that.
Dude you are so fucking cocky. At first I thought your attitude in the Avatar thread was justified, looking from your point of view. But here, you're just trying to nitpick and start some fights.
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You know if Stork had played like Movie did in this finals, it would have been one of his better finals appearances. Probably his second best.
His series against Jaedong wasn't really that close, he won the first game, then got ee-haned in the second game and freaked out after that. His series against Bisu was close but Stork was a superior PvP player at the time (people forget how shaky Bisu's PvP and PvT were in early-mid 2007) and it was a massive choke to even play down to Bisu's level. His series against Flash you're going to blame on GSI? I'm going to blame it on Stork being a brainless robot at the time and not having the game sense to discern heavy 2 base pushes coming in games 1 or 3.
StorkHwaiting, the reason why people are annoyed at your interpretations of things is that you're holding players to an enormous double standard.
Yes, a great legendary P like Stork deserves more benefit of the doubt than Movie, but it's funny that you're able to excuse away far worse finals performances from your hero himself (the biggest finals choker of all time, Yellow wasn't as hard of a choker as much as someone who just couldn't finish the job).
If Movie, a rookie, a Royal Roader, had forgotten goon range in a game you would have eviscerated him. If Movie had displayed the complete lack of any game sense whatsoever that Stork did against JD and Flash you would have eviscerated him. If Movie had failed to scout a hidden expo while ahead and it was clearly the only way his opponent could hope to get back in the game you would have eviscerated him. At a certain point fair has to be fair - you've basically said "Movie isn't that good because he wasn't perfect in his first rookie finals, compare to a great player like Stork (except he is the worst finals player ever) Movie just proved he isn't good".
Honestly if you want to talk about Movie not being that good go to PL (where his lack of refinement really shows) or something. To use this series is ridiculous because you can't take a poor finals performance ALONE as evidence that a player is not elite.
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oh well great run, Movie went as far as he could, but Flash is Flash.
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On January 19 2010 06:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 06:01 Chen wrote:On January 19 2010 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup. What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year. did you see that game vs Bogus? proxy 2-fact all-in vs something like 1-gate expand. Pure BO loss that no one could have defended. Plus you mention the 3-0 teamkill but fail to acknowledge that he 2-0'd Fantasy much more recently, which should be rather important if you are focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single loss and trying to magnify them. I fail to acknowledge it because in that same MSL Bisu lost to Iris right after. Maybe if you were focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single win and trying to magnify them, you'd see that.
did i ever say he was better than Stork at vT? ever? I'm just questioning your decision to highlight a BO loss as a horrible defeat, and to mention a MUCH earlier BoX rather than the most recent one.
Also you talk about Stork vT performances, his last BoX's were vs Fantasy, given a rape but Bisu did the same thing, 2-0 vs Upmagic. 2-1 to Lomo, LOMO. and lost 1-2 to MVP. I'm not going to argue on whether loss to Bo3 loss to MVP is worse than Bo1 loss to Bogus
In the same time Bisu has beaten FLASH 2-1, lost to Iris in an epic 5 game Bo5 that he granted should have won easily, then 2-0'd Fantasy after he got embarrassingly 3-0'd by him a season earlier.
Also stats lie alot but it is interesting to note
Bisu PvT in the last year 32-14 69.57%
Stork PvT in the last year 23-14 62.16%
is this balanced enough for you or am i still being more "biased" than you are?
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On January 19 2010 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup. What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year. Stork has lost to some scrubby Terrans before but the last BoX he lost was a Bo3 to MVP in a non-sanctioned tourney. And that was while he was in MSL and OSL, so it's pretty easy to see why he lost that. Bisu on the other hand dropped PvT series when they mattered. I'm not saying Bisu's PvT is even close to bad. But I'd tilt it towards Stork in PvT. PvZ is definitely Bisu all the way. And PvP is a toss up between them imo. But in the end, credit where it's due. Bisu is more clutch and has cleaner mechanics than Stork. He's the top protoss right now, no doubt. Stork's PvZ still needs serious work. He plays it like it's a PvT, which is terribad. And Stork gambles on his PvP's way too much sometimes.
You know Iris is the same player who crushed your PvT "god" with 2 facs? :p Losing to Iris is no shame. Hes one of the best non-bonjwa terrans ever.
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On January 19 2010 07:23 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 06:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 06:01 Chen wrote:On January 19 2010 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup. What? As of late? Bisu as of late has lost to Bogus and CuteAngel. Before that he lost a Bo5 to freaking Iris lol. And he was shut down 0-3 vs Fantasy. Sorry, Stork has fielded way better performances than that in PvT in the last year. did you see that game vs Bogus? proxy 2-fact all-in vs something like 1-gate expand. Pure BO loss that no one could have defended. Plus you mention the 3-0 teamkill but fail to acknowledge that he 2-0'd Fantasy much more recently, which should be rather important if you are focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single loss and trying to magnify them. I fail to acknowledge it because in that same MSL Bisu lost to Iris right after. Maybe if you were focusing on objectively looking at recent results rather than tunnel-visioning to every single win and trying to magnify them, you'd see that. did i ever say he was better than Stork at vT? ever? I'm just questioning your decision to highlight a BO loss as a horrible defeat, and to mention a MUCH earlier BoX rather than the most recent one. Also you talk about Stork vT performances, his last BoX's were vs Fantasy, given a rape but Bisu did the same thing, 2-0 vs Upmagic. 2-1 to Lomo, LOMO. and lost 1-2 to MVP. I'm not going to argue on whether loss to Bo3 loss to MVP is worse than Bo1 loss to Bogus In the same time Bisu has beaten FLASH 2-1, lost to Iris in an epic 5 game Bo5 that he granted should have won easily, then 2-0'd Fantasy after he got embarrassingly 3-0'd by him a season earlier. Also stats lie alot but it is interesting to note Bisu PvT in the last year 32-14 69.57% Stork PvT in the last year 23-14 62.16% is this balanced enough for you or am i still being more "biased" than you are?
Chen you need to chill out and think about what you're screaming. You quoted me when I was replying to someone else who WAS claiming Bisu > Stork PvT. You then try to debate my points with me, therefore you're assuming the position of the other guy, who was claiming Bisu > Stork PvT.
If you can't understand this simple dynamic, just stop talking to me.
And yes, you're being horribly biased. Stork > Bisu PvT. Live with it. Your man lost to CuteAngel. That can't be salvaged. I'm sorry.
Edit: This is tongue-in-cheek btw 
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On January 19 2010 07:09 darktreb wrote:
You know if Stork had played like Movie did in this finals, it would have been one of his better finals appearances. Probably his second best.
His series against Jaedong wasn't really that close, he won the first game, then got ee-haned in the second game and freaked out after that. His series against Bisu was close but Stork was a superior PvP player at the time (people forget how shaky Bisu's PvP and PvT were in early-mid 2007) and it was a massive choke to even play down to Bisu's level. His series against Flash you're going to blame on GSI? I'm going to blame it on Stork being a brainless robot at the time and not having the game sense to discern heavy 2 base pushes coming in games 1 or 3.
StorkHwaiting, the reason why people are annoyed at your interpretations of things is that you're holding players to an enormous double standard.
Yes, a great legendary P like Stork deserves more benefit of the doubt than Movie, but it's funny that you're able to excuse away far worse finals performances from your hero himself (the biggest finals choker of all time, Yellow wasn't as hard of a choker as much as someone who just couldn't finish the job).
If Movie, a rookie, a Royal Roader, had forgotten goon range in a game you would have eviscerated him. If Movie had displayed the complete lack of any game sense whatsoever that Stork did against JD and Flash you would have eviscerated him. If Movie had failed to scout a hidden expo while ahead and it was clearly the only way his opponent could hope to get back in the game you would have eviscerated him. At a certain point fair has to be fair - you've basically said "Movie isn't that good because he wasn't perfect in his first rookie finals, compare to a great player like Stork (except he is the worst finals player ever) Movie just proved he isn't good".
Honestly if you want to talk about Movie not being that good go to PL (where his lack of refinement really shows) or something. To use this series is ridiculous because you can't take a poor finals performance ALONE as evidence that a player is not elite.
Actually, when Stork loses, I do eviscerate him lol.
I have to admit, I get kind of pissed off when people show up in a thread, read the most recent page of posts and immediately want to jump in and debate. If you took the time to read how this entire debate progressed, you'd see that I never said Movie was a bad player or that he should be bashed because he didn't play perfect.
What I said was it's silly for people to say Movie's PvT is as good or has the potential to be better than Stork/Bisu's. Go back in the thread, read the people who posted that, then realize why I am saying Stork's PvT > Movie's.
It's as simple as that. That's been my one and only point the entire time. Movie is NOT S-Class and he's not > PvT than Stork/Bisu.
Nobody is using this poor finals performance alone, I just don't care enough to try to dredge up every mistake Movie's ever had to try to prove my point. Probably because I have nothing against Movie and think he's actually a decent player. I just don't think he's at TaekBang level.
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I agree Movie's PvT isnt as good as Stork/Bisu's.
But why are you saying it doesnt have the potential to be better? Can you see in the future and say how Movie will play from now on?
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On January 19 2010 07:36 SuperArc wrote:
I agree Movie's PvT isnt as good as Stork/Bisu's.
But why are you saying it doesnt have the potential to be better? Can you see in the future and say how Movie will play from now on?
That's a strawman argument.
People are positing what Movie showed today is the potential to be an S-class PvTer. I contend that it's not.
I'm not saying Movie will never be S-class. I'm only saying that I don't think what he showed today was anything that screamed S-class potential to me. There's a big difference between the two statements, and I'd rather you not twist my words please.
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EPT
