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On January 19 2010 05:07 SimonB wrote:
Flash lost his last couple series with Bisu, so yeah. Over the last year and half, his PvT is as good as Stork's if not better. It's pretty damn scary.
Edit: That is to say, I still give a ton of credit to Stork for having such a great PvT over so many years, but as of late, I'm not as impressed with his play as I have been with Bisu in that matchup.
That's partly because you're blind then or something.
Again I think people sometimes have a complete lack of thought when it comes to the time involved. Flash wasn't playing at all like he is now.
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You guys think Movie was planning on his proxy robo being scouted in game 1? I doubt it. He knew that flash's reaction to the gas steal would be 1rax no gas expand, and it makes sense to try to punish that with fast reavers.
He did make a good decision to let the proxy finish but not use it after it was scouted, but it seems unlikely that that was his plan. How can you plan on Flash having that ridiculous starsense?
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On January 19 2010 08:15 nodule wrote:
You guys think Movie was planning on his proxy robo being scouted in game 1? I doubt it. He knew that flash's reaction to the gas steal would be 1rax no gas expand, and it makes sense to try to punish that with fast reavers.
He did make a good decision to let the proxy finish but not use it after it was scouted, but it seems unlikely that that was his plan. How can you plan on Flash having that ridiculous starsense?
I'm pretty sure Movie practiced the triple nexus reaction he had to Flash scouting it at least a few times.
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On January 19 2010 08:15 nodule wrote:
You guys think Movie was planning on his proxy robo being scouted in game 1? I doubt it. He knew that flash's reaction to the gas steal would be 1rax no gas expand, and it makes sense to try to punish that with fast reavers.
He did make a good decision to let the proxy finish but not use it after it was scouted, but it seems unlikely that that was his plan. How can you plan on Flash having that ridiculous starsense?
I personally think that he had not actually planned it in the exact meaning of that word but he was prepared for that possibility. Remember that Movie had lots of time to prepare for the final. If Flash hadn't scout it, he would have gone reaver and try to harass Flash to death. Had Flash scouted (as it happened) he prepare double expand. Definitely great preparation from Movie 
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I'm very glad Flash won but some of you are foooolish to count JD out in the MSL final. I don't care for analyzing the specifics of their game play, but just force/spirit wise you know it's gonna be a good match.
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Edit: Whoops wrong thread ROFL
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Double expand is the perfect reaction to a scouted robo proxy. I am positive Movie contemplated the possibility that Flash would get a scout into his main and smell a rat.
Movie's strategy was pretty flawless, and got him a big lead. It's too bad that once he had the advantage, his attack was so poorly executed.
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I have to ask this question, is Flash just too good?
Jaedong has been dominate for a long time, however he has chinks in the armor. He loses games, and at times looks.... almost normal. Now I know flash has been flawed in the past, but lately he has seemed almost god like. You know he will not lose, before the match has even started.
I really don't like watching flash play anymore, he is sooooo good he looks like a wolf amonst sheep. I truely hope that Jaedong gives him a run in the MSL. I don't care who wins really, I just want it to be a series, as Flash has been so dominate to date that it makes his accomplishments seem almost trivial. Of course they are not trival, but it loses some of it sense of scale when he just decimates people without even breaking a sweat.
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On January 19 2010 07:34 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2010 07:09 darktreb wrote:
You know if Stork had played like Movie did in this finals, it would have been one of his better finals appearances. Probably his second best.
His series against Jaedong wasn't really that close, he won the first game, then got ee-haned in the second game and freaked out after that. His series against Bisu was close but Stork was a superior PvP player at the time (people forget how shaky Bisu's PvP and PvT were in early-mid 2007) and it was a massive choke to even play down to Bisu's level. His series against Flash you're going to blame on GSI? I'm going to blame it on Stork being a brainless robot at the time and not having the game sense to discern heavy 2 base pushes coming in games 1 or 3.
StorkHwaiting, the reason why people are annoyed at your interpretations of things is that you're holding players to an enormous double standard.
Yes, a great legendary P like Stork deserves more benefit of the doubt than Movie, but it's funny that you're able to excuse away far worse finals performances from your hero himself (the biggest finals choker of all time, Yellow wasn't as hard of a choker as much as someone who just couldn't finish the job).
If Movie, a rookie, a Royal Roader, had forgotten goon range in a game you would have eviscerated him. If Movie had displayed the complete lack of any game sense whatsoever that Stork did against JD and Flash you would have eviscerated him. If Movie had failed to scout a hidden expo while ahead and it was clearly the only way his opponent could hope to get back in the game you would have eviscerated him. At a certain point fair has to be fair - you've basically said "Movie isn't that good because he wasn't perfect in his first rookie finals, compare to a great player like Stork (except he is the worst finals player ever) Movie just proved he isn't good".
Honestly if you want to talk about Movie not being that good go to PL (where his lack of refinement really shows) or something. To use this series is ridiculous because you can't take a poor finals performance ALONE as evidence that a player is not elite. Actually, when Stork loses, I do eviscerate him lol. I have to admit, I get kind of pissed off when people show up in a thread, read the most recent page of posts and immediately want to jump in and debate. If you took the time to read how this entire debate progressed, you'd see that I never said Movie was a bad player or that he should be bashed because he didn't play perfect. What I said was it's silly for people to say Movie's PvT is as good or has the potential to be better than Stork/Bisu's. Go back in the thread, read the people who posted that, then realize why I am saying Stork's PvT > Movie's. It's as simple as that. That's been my one and only point the entire time. Movie is NOT S-Class and he's not > PvT than Stork/Bisu. Nobody is using this poor finals performance alone, I just don't care enough to try to dredge up every mistake Movie's ever had to try to prove my point. Probably because I have nothing against Movie and think he's actually a decent player. I just don't think he's at TaekBang level.
I've been here for the whole thread. I've also been here for lots of other threads in which you talk about Stork.
You say that you're not using this "poor finals performance" as an example, but all you're doing is asserting that Movie's not S-class. You aren't bringing up other examples (there are plenty of good PL examples of Movie playing subpar PvT), and you aren't backing up your claims by pointing to specific things. You're just saying "Movie's not as good as Stork and Bisu, Movie did not play well in this finals". You come off as insulted that people would think Movie is good to S-class at PvT. Basically you come off as really butthurt that another P is considered good besides your beloved Stork (and his buddy Bisu who is unfortunately just too good to leave out of the discussion).
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Some moderator to change the title of the thread to: Who has the best PvT and is Movie S-class vs Terran yet or soon? Please, now.
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I really think that in game 1 Movie lost because he felt he had "something to prove." He had the advantage being up on expansions, his economy was rolling, and he was in a great position. Then, he frittered away his army on pointless attacks which he just couldn't manage well enough to break the back of the terran tank army. Here's an idea, why not save his arbiter energy for when Flash inevitably decides to attack with a few tank/several vulture harass group? Bring the arbiter over the harass troupe, recall on top of them, bang, no more harassment at very little cost. He could have probably saved his bottom right expansion with a defensive recall…
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On January 17 2010 18:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 18:52 PoP wrote:
Well, there was absolutely no reason to lose the first reaver. He dropped it behind Flash's mineral line, a good scarab went off and then his shuttle should have gathered it back right away. It didn't and that was quite damn bad to me.
And he shouldn't have lost the DT either. He saw the turret building, he could see the HPs. The shuttle was there. Not as big a deal as the reaver since (I think) scan was on its way but still, it was quite bad.
Also basically every break he attempted was quite poorly executed imo (at least compared to any S-class PvT players like Stork), especially that time when he dropped the reaver/zealots right in the middle of Flash's defensive army and THEN sent his army in. That's again pretty damn bad synchronisation-wise.
Again, nervousness probably isn't helping, but Movie's execution has been quite abysimal these games, imho. (His builds are very good though but it's another story.) Strategically he raped Flash game 1 too. He used the gas steal into proxy elevator rush (see liquipedia) but Flash was too good and scouted it. He then transitioned into hardcore macro play, did a sexy twin observer to get in and see flash's fact count (this was HUGE) and stole Flash's 4th. That is also huge because Flash can always take and hold that base eventually but Movie can do the same with his. They're safe bases. Every mineral Movie mined there was a mineral Flash couldn't. It was insanely good strategically. He then followed it up with twin forge twin stargate fast arbiter while running his army around pretending to be aggressive. And Flash bought it hook, line and sinker and was a long way behind. If you put a Protoss and Terran player of the same skill in that game at that time it'd be over. It was just Flash was so incredible at dealing with it that Movie couldn't win. Flash blocked recalls with a line of turrets and mines, Movie hallucinates beyond the mines. Flash has to mine everywhere and Movie feints at the main with hallucinations and smashes into the mineral only. Everything Movie did that game was genius. Incredible strategic play. Had it been anyone but Flash they'd have lost it several times over. It is unfortunate to Movie that despite being easily the 3rd best player in the world right now he's thrown against the 1st.
Great post. This deserves to be quotes again incase someone missed it the first time.
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On January 18 2010 18:16 darktreb wrote:
I love how StorkHwaiting loves Stork so much that he forgets how TERRIBLE Stork played (if you can even call it that) in three finals until finally salvaging a 4th.
Oh by the way, in that 4th final, Stork also played terribly in 2 of the 5 games, and even in the 5th game that he won he managed not to scout the one expansion on the map where Fantasy had a hidden expo (he never even found it) in spite of being way ahead and checking for hidden expos repeatedly. Fortunately he was too far ahead to allow yet another 5th game choke job catch up to him. It's a good thing Flash GGPlayed himself out of that OSl because he would have beaten Fantasy in the BO5 and Stork too.
My point is simply this - Stork was an S-class player when he lost to Bisu (the legendary goon range game is an all time great game 5 choke job), he was an S-class player when he got crushed by Jaedong, and he was an S-class player when he got absolutely MURDERED by Flash.
Movie is not an S-class player yet in my opinion, but to base that off of not playing perfectly in a final and acting as if Stork and Bisu would have is ridiculous. Especially STORK who choked away THREE finals in which he came in as probably the favorite. Stork is a great player but if anything he is proof that just because you're an elite S-class player doesn't mean you're immune to playing well below (or in Stork's case, well, well, well, well, well below) your level in a final.
I didn't even get into Bisu vs Mind....
I base S-class on how they do overall, not just one matchup or a series. When Stork plays, especially his TvP, no one can doubt he is the huge favorite. His PvP is also as good. Stork's PvZ is good, but not that good. Win or lose, Stork is definately S-class while with Movie, it's too early to tell. Even I'm a bit skeptical about how long good results from Movie's PvZ will last which is his best matchup.
Anyways, I don't want to sound like I'm taking away from Movie's movement to shine in this OSL. Movie definately deserve to be in the finals. He won TWO BoX SERIES AGAINST ZERG! That is most protoss' nightmare 
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On January 19 2010 23:41 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 18:55 KwarK wrote:On January 17 2010 18:52 PoP wrote:
Well, there was absolutely no reason to lose the first reaver. He dropped it behind Flash's mineral line, a good scarab went off and then his shuttle should have gathered it back right away. It didn't and that was quite damn bad to me.
And he shouldn't have lost the DT either. He saw the turret building, he could see the HPs. The shuttle was there. Not as big a deal as the reaver since (I think) scan was on its way but still, it was quite bad.
Also basically every break he attempted was quite poorly executed imo (at least compared to any S-class PvT players like Stork), especially that time when he dropped the reaver/zealots right in the middle of Flash's defensive army and THEN sent his army in. That's again pretty damn bad synchronisation-wise.
Again, nervousness probably isn't helping, but Movie's execution has been quite abysimal these games, imho. (His builds are very good though but it's another story.) Strategically he raped Flash game 1 too. He used the gas steal into proxy elevator rush (see liquipedia) but Flash was too good and scouted it. He then transitioned into hardcore macro play, did a sexy twin observer to get in and see flash's fact count (this was HUGE) and stole Flash's 4th. That is also huge because Flash can always take and hold that base eventually but Movie can do the same with his. They're safe bases. Every mineral Movie mined there was a mineral Flash couldn't. It was insanely good strategically. He then followed it up with twin forge twin stargate fast arbiter while running his army around pretending to be aggressive. And Flash bought it hook, line and sinker and was a long way behind. If you put a Protoss and Terran player of the same skill in that game at that time it'd be over. It was just Flash was so incredible at dealing with it that Movie couldn't win. Flash blocked recalls with a line of turrets and mines, Movie hallucinates beyond the mines. Flash has to mine everywhere and Movie feints at the main with hallucinations and smashes into the mineral only. Everything Movie did that game was genius. Incredible strategic play. Had it been anyone but Flash they'd have lost it several times over. It is unfortunate to Movie that despite being easily the 3rd best player in the world right now he's thrown against the 1st. Great post. This deserves to be quotes again incase someone missed it the first time.
completely agree. thought the exact same thing as i was watching the games.
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A bit painful to watch that series considering Movie could have won 2 of those games imo. Just some slip-ups in execution that set him back really (sloppy attacks/recalls). Hope Movie stays in top form, really fun watching him. As for Flash, he played his style and did it well. I almost puked when I saw those supply depots on HBR but w/e works I suppose. Decent series all around.
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On January 20 2010 05:55 Mazer wrote:
I almost puked when I saw those supply depots on HBR but w/e works I suppose.
Flash: I don't like the open terrain on this map. Let's see, I'll pretend this is StarEdit and draw a wall here, then a wall here...
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i'm glad flash won osl. too bad he's not gonna win msl
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why would idra make a prediction?
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On January 20 2010 06:45 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 05:55 Mazer wrote:
I almost puked when I saw those supply depots on HBR but w/e works I suppose. Flash: I don't like the open terrain on this map. Let's see, I'll pretend this is StarEdit and draw a wall here, then a wall here...
Hahah, exactly.
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EPT
