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No Terran wins that game in my opinion.
Great game - I'm so sad it had to be on Heartbreak though. Seriously, a TvZ on Heartbreak and a TvP on a map that ISN'T HEARTBREAK would have been so much better.
Flash could have thrown away less Goliaths defending the counter - I don't think you can say he should have base traded because Stork had top left and bottom right and Flash wasn't sure how many Carriers he had exactly either. There's no way you can justify a base trade there, though having a couple of Tanks behind the Depot wall would have helped A LOT.
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4/4 ... but since I am normally the worst liquibetter alive, that doens't help me much 
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On December 02 2009 20:33 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them He did push out early, dont call it bullshit. He did it with starxsense because how easy is it to scout szomething with scvs when goons roam the map due to early preassure? elaborate on that please
He had Stork contained, send 1 unit to patrol the expos to make sure no funny business is going on.
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On December 02 2009 20:31 cUrsOr wrote:
Look at the timing in that game, the number of expos Stork had... his unit control and his macro. Anyone whos calling this cheese and abuse is pretty much retarded. He steamrolled him with literally, every different unit.
Call the DT drop cheese, IDC that is 1 unit (all-inish) abuse, but not this.
Well it's not cheese but I don't think anyone's really calling it that. It definitely is abuse of the map/PvT trends/etc. Can't blame Stork for his pretty awesome build but it sucks Flash had to face both Bisu and Stork on this map in pretty important ways.. both of them abusing the map pretty hard.
At least this means chances are both Flash and Stork will advance... HOPEFULLY O_O
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On December 02 2009 20:32 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:30 SilverskY wrote:
But seriously, the most amazing thing about that game that really got me was. Both gamers, who have an intense history, started the match off with happy smiles. And even after the game, even Flash who lost the game, both finished with smiles. Real sportsmanship and spirit coming through, mad props to both. Very true, I think that is why they are S-Class, such good attitudes
Thats what is really important in the end.. Doesnt really matter to me in the end who wins, as long as the game is good and real sportmansip and spirit is shown,,
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On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases
There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned.
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On December 02 2009 20:34 UGC4 wrote:
did flash really play that well?
- stork double-expanded and still fought off the push. it was a rather weak push. perhaps a bunker+rines would have made it stronger
- flash scouted the hidden expo super late
- flash did nothing about that hidden expo
- flash let stork get up to 5 bases by the end of the game
- flash did nothing to harass any of stork's bases
i mean, yeah, he played well, but i wouldn't say he played all that great. i did like his game sense though, he expected the carriers even before he scanned them seeing that stork's ground army wasnt getting any bigger. but thats about all i can commend flash for this game sadly. and his decision to back off and defend at the elimination race moment was not good i dont think. i'd say he could have taken those carriers, and destroyed at least the natural and then gone back.
oh well im happy stork won
He had good timing even not knowing about the hidden expo =O
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I'm pretty sure Flash knew Stork had a expansion somewhere even without having to see it. The only reason Flash pushed out at that timing was to take advantage of the fact that stork just spent a lot of money on getting a expansion up. If Stork stuck to 2 base, Flash wouldn't have pushed, he would have turtled.
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On December 02 2009 20:34 UGC4 wrote:
did flash really play that well?
- stork double-expanded and still fought off the push. it was a rather weak push. perhaps a bunker+rines would have made it stronger
- flash scouted the hidden expo super late
- flash did nothing about that hidden expo
- flash let stork get up to 5 bases by the end of the game
- flash did nothing to harass any of stork's bases
i mean, yeah, he played well, but i wouldn't say he played all that great. i did like his game sense though, he expected the carriers even before he scanned them seeing that stork's ground army wasnt getting any bigger. but thats about all i can commend flash for this game sadly. and his decision to back off and defend at the elimination race moment was not good i dont think. i'd say he could have taken those carriers, and destroyed at least the natural and then gone back.
oh well im happy stork won
Flashs push execution was amazing. I'm Terran myself and can tell that every fucking amateur protoss would have died to it. They won't even have a chance to scratch that push. Stork did amazing vs that early aggression. It was no all-in push, thats why Flash still had a 3rd expo (after he lost his push) and could build a huge force (he didnt cut eco)...
Both played well, but Stork was just better this game.
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On December 02 2009 20:35 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:31 cUrsOr wrote:
Look at the timing in that game, the number of expos Stork had... his unit control and his macro. Anyone whos calling this cheese and abuse is pretty much retarded. He steamrolled him with literally, every different unit.
Call the DT drop cheese, IDC that is 1 unit (all-inish) abuse, but not this. Well it's not cheese but I don't think anyone's really calling it that. It definitely is abuse of the map/PvT trends/etc. Can't blame Stork for his pretty awesome build but it sucks Flash had to face both Bisu and Stork on this map in pretty important ways.. both of them abusing the map pretty hard. At least this means chances are both Flash and Stork will advance... HOPEFULLY O_O
So we can all call Flash abusive on Destination, cause thats what he does. He abuses Destination TvP.
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Flash should take his game off type-b. However if he doesn't, the super terran maps in the MSL should lead him to a victory :o
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On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned.
There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Flash lost the minute he went 4 Fac
Flash should've just sat in his base and 200/200 with 3/3 upgrades
That was the only way for him to beat 3 Nexus
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On December 02 2009 20:35 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:33 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them He did push out early, dont call it bullshit. He did it with starxsense because how easy is it to scout szomething with scvs when goons roam the map due to early preassure? elaborate on that please He had Stork contained, send 1 unit to patrol the expos to make sure no funny business is going on.
People say this every time a ninja expo works - fact of the matter is, it was smart and it happens. When was the last time you saw a P take bottom right as their 3rd on Heartbreak?
I will say this much - Stork knew Flash wasn't going Dropships and that made ninja-ing a 3rd a lot easier of a decision. Really smart.
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On December 02 2009 20:30 SilverskY wrote:
But seriously, the most amazing thing about that game that really got me was. Both gamers, who have an intense history, started the match off with happy smiles. And even after the game, even Flash who lost the game, both finished with smiles. Real sportsmanship and spirit coming through, mad props to both.
Yeah, that made me happy. 
Anyone who says Flash played bad in that game is a fool. He played great; it's just that he was up against the best PvT'er of all time.
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On December 02 2009 20:35 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:34 UGC4 wrote:
did flash really play that well?
- stork double-expanded and still fought off the push. it was a rather weak push. perhaps a bunker+rines would have made it stronger
- flash scouted the hidden expo super late
- flash did nothing about that hidden expo
- flash let stork get up to 5 bases by the end of the game
- flash did nothing to harass any of stork's bases
i mean, yeah, he played well, but i wouldn't say he played all that great. i did like his game sense though, he expected the carriers even before he scanned them seeing that stork's ground army wasnt getting any bigger. but thats about all i can commend flash for this game sadly. and his decision to back off and defend at the elimination race moment was not good i dont think. i'd say he could have taken those carriers, and destroyed at least the natural and then gone back.
oh well im happy stork won He had good timing even not knowing about the hidden expo =O
isn't the general rule for pvt to have 1 extra base
flash probably knew about the double expo since he himself expanded early
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On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something
yeah stork is just gonna let his expo die when his army is bigger and with complete control of the center
Flash really lost all mobility and harass opportunity after his push was broken.
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I think that the scouting prevention of stork is the best among all the pros, don't you think?
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On December 02 2009 20:37 MrHoon wrote:
Flash lost the minute he went 4 Fac
Flash should've just sat in his base and 200/200 with 3/3 upgrades
That was the only way for him to beat 3 Nexus
When Flash does this, people complain that he isn't being aggressive.
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On December 02 2009 20:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something yeah stork is just gonna let his expo die when his army is bigger and with complete control of the center so ez why is flash such an idiot he shoulda just killed his expos duh
How did Stork have control of the Center when flash was running Tanks and vultures at his natural?!
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EPT
