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On December 02 2009 20:37 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:35 Vasoline73 wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 cUrsOr wrote:
Look at the timing in that game, the number of expos Stork had... his unit control and his macro. Anyone whos calling this cheese and abuse is pretty much retarded. He steamrolled him with literally, every different unit.
Call the DT drop cheese, IDC that is 1 unit (all-inish) abuse, but not this. Well it's not cheese but I don't think anyone's really calling it that. It definitely is abuse of the map/PvT trends/etc. Can't blame Stork for his pretty awesome build but it sucks Flash had to face both Bisu and Stork on this map in pretty important ways.. both of them abusing the map pretty hard. At least this means chances are both Flash and Stork will advance... HOPEFULLY O_O So we can all call Flash abusive on Destination, cause thats what he does. He abuses Destination TvP.
I guess what I'm saying is that Stork's build is pretty much a one time use build and that's how he abused the MU and map. It's not like Stork could use the build he just used every game like Flash uses his Destination build the same way every game.
One is being standard and the other one is abusing T's lack of early scouting and hoping it works out as planned. He couldn't use this build every game... and not on everymap. Flash's Destination build is pretty much just his TvP build most of the time.. it's not really much different than his Bluestorm build when you think about it right?
I'm not taking away from Stork, I'm just saying this isn't really too telling of Flash against Protoss. Stork chose a good build and executed it well.. that's really all I can say
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On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something
Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks.
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On December 02 2009 20:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
if type-b beats flash
SOOOOOOOO many people will hate him
especially if it's cheese
I think more people would hate Flash for disappointing his fans again.
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This was the first live match I've gotten to watch. Watched it with like four other people from my door, was a very fun two hours despite the time 
To me, the two defining moments were when Storks three dragoons destroyed four tanks, which to be honest seemed to be a little more than luck in initial positioning, and a bit better micromanagement in actually getting them in for the kill.
And then the break on break, with Stork's forcing Flash to split. He microed his carriers very well and used ground forces excellently to back them up. A good chunk of the games I've ever watched where 'toss go Carriers ends in tear when Goliaths destroy every last one of them very quickly because they don't have the ground troops to back it up.
I think in the end, it was the exercising of map control and macro that made it unwinnable. I was surprised Flash never went after the bottom right expansion to try and catch up, since he was at a slight disadvantage almost the entire game.
I'm not educated enough to talk about "game imba" etc. etc., it was just a very fun match. I had no idea who was going to win till the last several clashes.
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So, uh, guys, not to rain on anyone's parade, but...
- It's extremely likely that go.go and Hwasin are out.
- The only other two Terrans, Flash and Fantasy, are 1-1 each and could very well be knocked out.
- Stork is the only P who has a chance, the other Ps will roll over and die to Z (sorry Movie).
Are you psyched for another ZvZ final? Maybe even an all-Z semifinals?
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On December 02 2009 20:41 Nevuk wrote:
Even if the ninja third had been scouted, if Flash had pushed to it, Stork would already have benefited from the economic advantage of it by the time it was taken out. Pushing to the position Flash did is excellent because it can allow tanks to hit every unit moving through the choke, denying Stork from reinforcing an attempt to take out his third. If done in reverse, then the best possibility is Stork losing the expo while being able to make a massive army that would totally negate Flash's 4 fac push, leaving them in similar positions.
Flash's decision to push was excellent, the only reason his push was broken was due to Stork being intelligent enough to flank with the extra 3 goons that were at his third - that is the reason why Stork is such a good player.
uh no? that 3rd had gone up shortly after the natural, which came after flash's natural. i'd say 10-12 probes mined from it for about 3 minutes at most, and thats when flash's push came. if flash had known about that 3rd, he would have gone there and killed it. its a no-brainer because flash's push wasnt all-in, which would have been more than enough to destroy that 3rd. after having destroyed stork's 3rd, flash could have had his own 3rd, being ahead in terms of bases at 3-2 for a little while.
ninja expo won the game. we all know it.
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On December 02 2009 20:43 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:41 MrHoon wrote:On December 02 2009 20:40 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Are you guys really thinking Flash didn't know about the 3rd expansion, really? He is an S-Class progamer and I'm pretty sure he knew about an expo anywhere on the map. Stork had too less units to just have expanded at his nat.
And if he had only one expansion it would have been either 2 base carrier or fast arbiter (less likely with no dt opening). Against both those strategies, the early 4 fact push makes sense.. Flash didn't know about the 3rd until it was too late an FPVOD was seen during the game with him blind on 5 oclock it was until he scanned it that he found out about it He doesn't to scout it to know it. Starsense. Why do you think he pushed? As I said, he either expected: - 2 base carrier - 2 base arbiter - 3rd expo on the map = Push Flash could not push the 3rd expansion because 1) didn't know where it is 2) Stork would counter.
While he pushed Flash explicitly scanned Stork's natural 3rd and saw nothing.
If he was so sure there was a 3rd (as opposed to 2 base Arbs) then why not send Vultures to at least check if there's a hole or something? He didn't even check for a good 4 or 5 minutes after his push failed, not even with 2 Vultures - I really think he didn't know.
Flash's push micro still needs a little work. A few of those mines he burned on trying to force them against Stork's goons (Stork lost basically nothing for that) really could have been used to block those 3 flank goons.
Tough loss to swallow, Flash played great but he could have played better.
Also, while it doesn't really apply to this game that much, TvP is getting to be pretty bad (on the order of ZvP). It's just less noticeable because you see so few TvPs nowadays. Protoss has just so many options.
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On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks.
I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 02 2009 20:44 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:37 MrHoon wrote:
Flash lost the minute he went 4 Fac
Flash should've just sat in his base and 200/200 with 3/3 upgrades
That was the only way for him to beat 3 Nexus turtle to 200/200 + 3/3 ups doesnt work against dragons They'll just outexpand you then. Why do you think Flash never does that when he plays them?
Oh no not this time, I'm not going to feed anymore trolls this week!
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All of the terrans lost... :O
If this continues, I think the OSL might be dominated by zergs again.
Also really surprised hwasin hasn't learned his lesson about DTs yet =[
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On December 02 2009 20:49 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks. I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that
God I'm not even going to bother anymore. You're that same dude who thinks spawning pools cost 200 minerals.
Stork wouldn't need to bulldog if Flash sends 1/3rd of his units to try to bust the 3rd!! HELLO!?
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^
ugh, doesnt it cost 200? :S
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On December 02 2009 20:49 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:44 SuperArc wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 MrHoon wrote:
Flash lost the minute he went 4 Fac
Flash should've just sat in his base and 200/200 with 3/3 upgrades
That was the only way for him to beat 3 Nexus turtle to 200/200 + 3/3 ups doesnt work against dragons They'll just outexpand you then. Why do you think Flash never does that when he plays them? Oh no not this time, I'm not going to feed anymore trolls this week!
I actually think SuperArc is right. Imagine Flash vs Shuttle on HBR... except Shuttle is replaced by Stork. Yikes. Flash would have had a difficult time.
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On December 02 2009 20:49 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:43 G.s)NarutO wrote:On December 02 2009 20:41 MrHoon wrote:On December 02 2009 20:40 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Are you guys really thinking Flash didn't know about the 3rd expansion, really? He is an S-Class progamer and I'm pretty sure he knew about an expo anywhere on the map. Stork had too less units to just have expanded at his nat.
And if he had only one expansion it would have been either 2 base carrier or fast arbiter (less likely with no dt opening). Against both those strategies, the early 4 fact push makes sense.. Flash didn't know about the 3rd until it was too late an FPVOD was seen during the game with him blind on 5 oclock it was until he scanned it that he found out about it He doesn't to scout it to know it. Starsense. Why do you think he pushed? As I said, he either expected: - 2 base carrier - 2 base arbiter - 3rd expo on the map = Push Flash could not push the 3rd expansion because 1) didn't know where it is 2) Stork would counter. While he pushed Flash explicitly scanned Stork's natural 3rd and saw nothing. If he was so sure there was a 3rd (as opposed to 2 base Arbs) then why not send Vultures to at least check if there's a hole or something? He didn't even check for a good 4 or 5 minutes after his push failed, not even with 2 Vultures - I really think he didn't know. Flash's push micro still needs a little work. A few of those mines he burned on trying to force them against Stork's goons (Stork lost basically nothing for that) really could have been used to block those 3 flank goons. Tough loss to swallow, Flash played great but he could have played better. Also, while it doesn't really apply to this game that much, TvP is getting to be pretty bad (on the order of ZvP). It's just less noticeable because you see so few TvPs nowadays. Protoss has just so many options.
If you decide to push, you push the natural expansion.. thats just how you play TvP. Its like TvZ vs fast swarm, if you don't hit the main / nat of the zerg before he got swarm, you are basically fucked. Doesn't matter if you can beat zergs 3rd and leave him with swarm/plague he can fight back...
If he beat his main, his 3rd is worthless.
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On December 02 2009 20:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:49 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks. I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that God I'm not even going to bother anymore. You're that same dude who thinks spawning pools cost 200 minerals.
Pretty sure Spawning Pools cost 200 minerals -_-
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Oh sheat can't belive I missed this...me so saaad  was loking forward and had to do something...I really wish sometimes I don't have "real" life j/k
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On December 02 2009 20:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:49 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:On December 02 2009 20:24 Roffles wrote:
Once again, the lesson learned here is: Scout. Scout, scout, and more scouting. Failure to scout = Lose. He scouted it in time with comsat. The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT. Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster. Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants. Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous! Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks. I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that God I'm not even going to bother anymore. You're that same dude who thinks spawning pools cost 200 minerals. Stork wouldn't need to bulldog if Flash sends 1/3rd of his units to try to bust the 3rd!! HELLO!?
wait
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On December 02 2009 20:54 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:49 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:29 StylishVODs wrote:
[quote]
He scouted it in time with comsat.
The lesson learned is that protoss is favoured PvT.
Protoss can sacrifice 1 really early probe to take the gas, put enourmus preassure on terran early on and get still better economy even though terran gets his expansion much faster.
Terran still have to worry about DTs and reaver while protoss is pretty much safe to do what he wants.
Then protoss can just switch to whatever he want like in this case 4-5 stargates carriers and still survive because terran imobility, while expanding at the corners of the map with 1 cannon enough as defense. It's rediculous!
Flash fighting Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken. Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks. I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that God I'm not even going to bother anymore. You're that same dude who thinks spawning pools cost 200 minerals. Stork wouldn't need to bulldog if Flash sends 1/3rd of his units to try to bust the 3rd!! HELLO!? wait
Count the drone
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On December 02 2009 20:54 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:54 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:49 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:
[quote]
Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken.
Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks. I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that God I'm not even going to bother anymore. You're that same dude who thinks spawning pools cost 200 minerals. Stork wouldn't need to bulldog if Flash sends 1/3rd of his units to try to bust the 3rd!! HELLO!? wait Count the drone
Well might as well count the minerals an SCV isn't collecting while constructing a building to determine its cost
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EPT
