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On November 26 2009 09:06 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 09:05 TwoStep wrote:
Jaedong's shoddy in ZvZ, Flash is shoddy in TvP. Man, this just seems so weird to say, but it's true. :>
It IS weird. Who would have thought that JD's ZvZ would be his weakest matchup out of the 3 MU's now. Granted he is still strong in all 3 of em (I especially admired his ZvZ when it used to be 80+%, was 82% career-wise at one point) but while he's performance in ZvZ declined, he's definately stepped up his ZvT and ZvP (looks fucking sharp nowadays). Same goes for Flash, he used to be an impenetrable brick wall for the Protoss but now he looks somewhat fragile just like JD's ZvZ. Now it's his TvZ and TvT that's scary. If you ask me though, I think both players made the right trade-off. Be strong in 2 MU's and decent in 1 rather than decent in 2 and strong in 1. Or maybe that's just the way I think. :p
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yeah stx fail!
so happy about the results last night, but god damn did zero make me hate defiliers so much... i mean so many times he just ran up and swarm/plagued right in a row all of hwasins shit
hwasin should have gone sea style and just lined the whole top ridge with tanks and shit on everything lolol
flash and JD winning also = huge smiles 
fantasy smoked calm so bad too.. bu thats what you get when you try to be tricky and they call you on your bullshit
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On November 26 2009 09:14 yhnmk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 09:04 Holgerius wrote:On November 26 2009 08:34 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 08:23 SuperArc wrote:On November 26 2009 08:17 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 08:15 SuperArc wrote:On November 26 2009 07:50 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 07:32 Malinor wrote:On November 26 2009 07:26 Orbifold wrote:On November 26 2009 07:19 Holgerius wrote:[quote] Jaedong with the Golden Mouse begs to differ.  How many OSLs had JD won when he was 17? How long has it been since Flash won a StarLeague? How many MU's is jaedong on a 10+ game win streak in? Yeah and who is the player who won OSL twice, #3 WCG Korea, #1 WCG Grand finals, #2 WL, #2 PL finals this year? You can brag all you want at Flash's current streak, but JD is clearly THE player of 2009. We arent talking [and never were] about who is the more accomplished player, just who the better player is. Flash is on two 10+ winstreaks in seperate mu's and is breaking his [and likely everyones] elo peak. Jaedong is 55% in zvz since he lost to yellow in the group stages of bachus. Jaedong results have declined recently, Flash's have drastically improved. Flash is the better player, without question, without debate, without reservation. Why should Flash be the better player when he had way less matches to play than JD (not due him being in Oz, but because he got much farther in SLs than Flash)? I also forgot to put in #3/4 MSL for JD's accomplishments in 2009. Flash started to rape last quarter of 2009 whereas JD was hot all year. What the hell are you talking about? Did you just fly over my post and pretend it said something other than it did? I am not arguing Flash is the better player career wise, I am calling him the better player AT THIS MOMENT, because he is playing MUCH better than Jaedong at this moment, and THAT is without question except moron jaedong fan boys. Thats why hes number 1 on the pr. Thats why his win rate is far superior. Thats why there are threads wondering when he will lose a tvt again. And Flash *has* played far more than JD lately, furthur cementing the already pitifully evident fact that you didnt actually understand my post. It is not ''without question, without debate, without reservation'' certain that Flash is the better player even right now. If they were to face in a Bo5 today JD would have AT LEAST 50% chance of winning. He's coming straight from raping the 2 best protoss players in the world in Bo3's. Sorry, haha, I mean, you might be able to make an arguement that Jaedong is of comparable quality to Flash overall, but Flash's tvz is far better than jaedong's zvt atm. If I were to give him a 50% chance, it would purely be based on Flash's tendency to suck shit in b0x's, if I were to disregard that and look purely at abilities than I would 100% bet on Flash. In THAT match up.
And what do you base that on? Since the OSL semifinals against Fantasy last season (which he won btw) he has played a Bo3 vs Hwasin (who has really good TvZ) which he won, and a PL game vs Miracle who he assraped so hard it wasn't even funny. That's it. We don't have a lot to judge his ZvT by at the moment, and Jaedong is a player who deserves a crapton of benefit of doubt. There's no way Flash is a big favourite against Jaedong if they were to play a BoX right now. People screamed out ''SLUMP'' after JD's losses vs 815 and Hyuk. What did he do after that? He responed by taking down Stork and Bisu in Bo3's to win the WCG.
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This is getting pretty silly.
Yes, Flash is on fire. Flash is my favorite player. But you can't just say that he's a 'clear favorite over Jaedong'.
JD is the two-time past OSL winner and just won WCG, as well. He wins games when they COUNT. Flash may be in better form at the moment, but JD is not an underdog to anyone in a Bo5 in a starleague when it matters.
I don't know who would win if they played eachother right now, and neither do any of you, so stop the theorycrafting and go back to cheering for your favorite player. This whole thing is embarrassing.
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On November 26 2009 09:28 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 09:14 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 09:04 Holgerius wrote:On November 26 2009 08:34 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 08:23 SuperArc wrote:On November 26 2009 08:17 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 08:15 SuperArc wrote:On November 26 2009 07:50 yhnmk wrote:On November 26 2009 07:32 Malinor wrote:On November 26 2009 07:26 Orbifold wrote:
[quote]
How many OSLs had JD won when he was 17? How long has it been since Flash won a StarLeague? How many MU's is jaedong on a 10+ game win streak in? Yeah and who is the player who won OSL twice, #3 WCG Korea, #1 WCG Grand finals, #2 WL, #2 PL finals this year? You can brag all you want at Flash's current streak, but JD is clearly THE player of 2009. We arent talking [and never were] about who is the more accomplished player, just who the better player is. Flash is on two 10+ winstreaks in seperate mu's and is breaking his [and likely everyones] elo peak. Jaedong is 55% in zvz since he lost to yellow in the group stages of bachus. Jaedong results have declined recently, Flash's have drastically improved. Flash is the better player, without question, without debate, without reservation. Why should Flash be the better player when he had way less matches to play than JD (not due him being in Oz, but because he got much farther in SLs than Flash)? I also forgot to put in #3/4 MSL for JD's accomplishments in 2009. Flash started to rape last quarter of 2009 whereas JD was hot all year. What the hell are you talking about? Did you just fly over my post and pretend it said something other than it did? I am not arguing Flash is the better player career wise, I am calling him the better player AT THIS MOMENT, because he is playing MUCH better than Jaedong at this moment, and THAT is without question except moron jaedong fan boys. Thats why hes number 1 on the pr. Thats why his win rate is far superior. Thats why there are threads wondering when he will lose a tvt again. And Flash *has* played far more than JD lately, furthur cementing the already pitifully evident fact that you didnt actually understand my post. It is not ''without question, without debate, without reservation'' certain that Flash is the better player even right now. If they were to face in a Bo5 today JD would have AT LEAST 50% chance of winning. He's coming straight from raping the 2 best protoss players in the world in Bo3's. Sorry, haha, I mean, you might be able to make an arguement that Jaedong is of comparable quality to Flash overall, but Flash's tvz is far better than jaedong's zvt atm. If I were to give him a 50% chance, it would purely be based on Flash's tendency to suck shit in b0x's, if I were to disregard that and look purely at abilities than I would 100% bet on Flash. In THAT match up. And what do you base that on? Since the OSL semifinals against Fantasy last season (which he won btw) he has played a Bo3 vs Hwasin (who has really good TvZ) which he won, and a PL game vs Miracle who he assraped so hard it wasn't even funny. That's it. We don't have a lot to judge his ZvT by at the moment, and Jaedong is a player who deserves a crapton of benefit of doubt. There's no way Flash is a big favourite against Jaedong if they were to play a BoX right now. People screamed out ''SLUMP'' after JD's losses vs 815 and Hyuk. What did he do after that? He responed by taking down Stork and Bisu in Bo3's to win the WCG.
Those are different MUs, though. It's like how FBH can still be good at TvT while slumping because his TvT is stellar. The vice versa is true, though, as Jaedong can be suffering in ZvZ while being S class elsewhere at the same time.
On November 26 2009 09:35 Hinanawi wrote:
JD is the two-time past OSL winner and just won WCG, as well. He wins games when they COUNT. Flash may be in better form at the moment, but JD is not an underdog to anyone in a Bo5 in a starleague when it matters.
Some would argue that he is vs Calm.
I wouldn't, but he did convincingly lose 1-3 to the tricky bastard.
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It's different MU's, ya, but we have absolutely zero evidence that JD's ZvT is anything but S-class.
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On November 25 2009 20:18 konadora wrote:
Okay listen guys
Calm didn't do anything wrong that game.
Fantasy just played the ENTIRE game so perfectly, right from the start with the SCV scouting and 2 early overlord snipes, as well as the constant expansion scouting. His 2nd SCV scout also helped a lot by scouting what tech Calm went for, through seeing the hydralisk at the natural. That completely threw off Calm and made the game flow slowly into Fantasy's planned game layout. Basically, Fantasy had completely read Calm.
The only mistake Calm may have made was a rather slower-than-usual lurker morph at 5 (which Fantasy could have easily countered with a dropship, which was already there when Fantasy was destroying 5 o'clock).
calm forgot to research lurker..., he did everything wrong and fantasy merely capitalized on it, the overlord kills didn't do anything.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 09:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 20:18 konadora wrote:
Okay listen guys
Calm didn't do anything wrong that game.
Fantasy just played the ENTIRE game so perfectly, right from the start with the SCV scouting and 2 early overlord snipes, as well as the constant expansion scouting. His 2nd SCV scout also helped a lot by scouting what tech Calm went for, through seeing the hydralisk at the natural. That completely threw off Calm and made the game flow slowly into Fantasy's planned game layout. Basically, Fantasy had completely read Calm.
The only mistake Calm may have made was a rather slower-than-usual lurker morph at 5 (which Fantasy could have easily countered with a dropship, which was already there when Fantasy was destroying 5 o'clock). calm forgot to research lurker..., he did everything wrong and fantasy merely capitalized on it, the overlord kills didn't do anything.
Forgot to research lurker? He wasn't planning to go lurker in the first place... he only built the hydra den because he didn't know whether Fantasy was going mech or not.
konadora is right. Calm just got really, really unlucky that game.
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roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture?
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No, he wasn't just really, really unlucky. Having no Lair units at all like 9 minutes into the game is not being unlucky. He played like an ass.
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On November 26 2009 05:09 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 22:06 LetMeShine wrote:On November 25 2009 21:11 meeple wrote:On November 25 2009 21:01 Holgerius wrote:On November 25 2009 20:54 meeple wrote:On November 25 2009 20:50 Holgerius wrote:On November 25 2009 20:48 meeple wrote:On November 25 2009 20:46 Holgerius wrote:On November 25 2009 20:45 meeple wrote:On November 25 2009 20:43 De4ngus wrote:
[quote]
Haha yeah. Fantasy vs Calm wtf? That was a perfect game... so what if it was a one-sided rape. Flash vs Kwanro was also a perfect game and I wouldn't recommend it. Flash vs Kwanro wasn't a perfect game... Flash just had awesome timing and Kwanro played greedy and didn't put 3 sunks like he should've The same thing goes for Fantasy vs Clam; Clam expanded without making any Lair units and died. He had lurkers on the way when he expanded, its just that fantasy took them out before they could do anything. So; Fantasy attacked before lurkers were made, Flash attacked before sunkens were made. Both of them made zero mistakes in the games whereas their opponents played like B-teamers. None of the games were very entertaining from an objective perspective. To be fair, fantasy was scouting incessantly for the expo so he could time his attack, which isn't so common for other terrans, and the lurkers weren't that late. Flash just made the normal early game mnm push that every other terran does and when he noticed that Kwanro didn't make enough sunkens he rushed in. I would say its more Kwanro's mistake than Flash's skill. Calm's build probably could've worked on most other terrans. If those terrans are called FBH or Casy then maybe. Against good terrans like Sea or Light, it would not have any chance of working. Calm's gameplan wasn't bad because he needed to catch up economically and whatnot after he lost the overlords. But the 5 o'clock expo was absolute suicide due to the disparity between the number of terran and zerg ground units...I can't believe he thought it had a chance of working: Fantasy's SCV (who was simply sitting there) saw the two hydralisks and lone drone if I'm not mistaken. The drone massacre during the transfer simply sealed the outcome of the game. Fantasy had so many units piling outside of Calm's natural that he had to use lurkers to hold a impending break and even then, if Fantasy was daring enough and microed correctly he could probably have taken those lurkers, which had little zergling support. Also the fact Calm had no mutalisks meant that Fantasy could just enter macro mode and completely skip turrets thus saving tons of minerals for tanks, marines, and more barracks. Fantasy's game, overall, probably required less unit control than Flash's game as there was simply little requirement to as Fantasy played solidly, Calm had no units, was behind the whole game, and made a really, really awful decision which resulted in around 1k minerals lost. Flash's game was even worse, but at least it was laughable because of how quickly Kwanro lost; the Fantasy vs. Calm game was simply a massive disappointment because a good player like Calm completely didn't deliver the goods while Fantasy obviously brought his A game with him. Seriously people, only the Hwasin vs. Zero game could be considered good to watch and that is not because of Hwasin's overall play but because of Zero's amazing plagues and his comeback. All the other games showed bad play overall by the loser, though Pusan's cheese was kind of cute. ROFL. since when does a sunk break require unit control? did you watch the game at all? A-move the marines at the 1 colony and keep 1 firebat behind the M&M to protect against ling backstab. that level of control should be child's play for any B level ICCUP terran. Yeah Fantasy had a huge advantage but he still had to deal with swarm and lurkers, which requires something other than A-move.
It was hardly an A move and its often why terrans like FBH screw it up amongst other things. There's a reason why pincer attacks don't work very well against Flash and that is because he controls and positions his units very well. Flash could have easily blown that attack if he mismicroed.
Yes swarms and shit was out in Fantasy's game but all Fantasy had to do was move his units backwards because Calm had no units to make anything good out of the swarm. Seriously, the game was completely over when Calm lost his third along with more drones than I can count with my fingers - overall Fantasy's game definitely did not require more precise control than Flash's game as Flash could have easily screwed that timing attack like so, so, so many terrans often do while Fantasy fucked Calm over long before and could probably kill all of Calm's offensive units with his science vessels.
Seriously, around 9 minutes in Calm had 40 food less than Fantasy and I don't think he was trying to play a management style like Savior. Fantasy if he wanted to could have won the game there if he wanted to leave the outcome of the game to a single micro battle as Calm's only offensive units were 6 lurkers with piss poor zergling support and without defiler support.
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also at about 4:40 calm saw 3 rines plus the 4 that just killed his overlord, I'm pretty sure calm knew by then fantasy wasn't meching
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture?
He built a spire planning to use it. But after it finished, he ended up not using it for anything at all, because he realized that he'd lose his third if he did. So he researched lurker late in order to protect the third.
There's no way to explain the spire otherwise. Calm just got totally fucked over. The following list is stuff that was either simply unlucky for calm or brilliant by Fantasy.
- cross positions made his 9 pool less effective
- Fantasy sent out marines into the map to kill his overlord even though he knew lings were running around... on the surface a risky decision
- Fantasy is known for playing mech so Calm got a useless hydra den
- Fantasy scouted the third base BEFORE it went up
- cross positions kept Calm from scouting the fact that Fantasy wasn't going mech
- the drones lolololol
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lol, poor bisu. like 2 or 1 months ago everyone was going on and having big fights about whos best, Jaedong or Bisu. How times change.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
How well did  fantasy control his units against  Calm?
Try this.
When is the first point that the observer spots fantasy losing a marine?
+ Show Spoiler +The first non-scv units fantasy loses in the game come when Calm attacks fantasy's drop at 11:02. This drop kills off at least two control groups of zerglings before falling. Only at 13:13 does fantasy actually lose units in the field- three or four marines in the process of killing the same amount of lurkers. Enough of this "it was more Calm's loss than fantasy's win" garbage. This was stellar play from fantasy.
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On November 26 2009 09:05 TwoStep wrote:
Jaedong's shoddy in ZvZ, Flash is shoddy in TvP.
Bisu is shoddy in PvZ.
What the hell..
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On November 26 2009 10:09 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture? He built a spire planning to use it. But after it finished, he ended up not using it for anything at all, because he realized that he'd lose his third if he did. So he researched lurker late in order to protect the third. There's no way to explain the spire otherwise. Calm just got totally fucked over. The following list is stuff that was either simply unlucky for calm or brilliant by Fantasy. - cross positions made his 9 pool less effective - Fantasy sent out marines into the map to kill his overlord even though he knew lings were running around... on the surface a risky decision - Fantasy is known for playing mech so Calm got a useless hydra den - Fantasy scouted the third base BEFORE it went up - cross positions kept Calm from scouting the fact that Fantasy wasn't going mech - the drones lolololol
im sorry but youre wrong
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:16 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 09:05 TwoStep wrote:
Jaedong's shoddy in ZvZ, Flash is shoddy in TvP. Bisu is shoddy in PvZ. What the hell..
The world has collapsed. JD's ZvZ is questionable, Bisu's PvZ is mediocre, and Flash's TvP is unproven.
Oh how the times change.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:21 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:09 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture? He built a spire planning to use it. But after it finished, he ended up not using it for anything at all, because he realized that he'd lose his third if he did. So he researched lurker late in order to protect the third. There's no way to explain the spire otherwise. Calm just got totally fucked over. The following list is stuff that was either simply unlucky for calm or brilliant by Fantasy. - cross positions made his 9 pool less effective - Fantasy sent out marines into the map to kill his overlord even though he knew lings were running around... on the surface a risky decision - Fantasy is known for playing mech so Calm got a useless hydra den - Fantasy scouted the third base BEFORE it went up - cross positions kept Calm from scouting the fact that Fantasy wasn't going mech - the drones lolololol im sorry but youre wrong
Only an idiot could disagree with your position; there's no need to refute my points. Right?
Jesus. Stop being so condescending.
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sorry i dont mean to come off like this but I really don't know how else I can explain that he knew mech was not coming and he was planning on going lurkers. The spire was for the larva fake, its a zvt build where you hide your den and morph hydras instead of mutas when spire is done. If he planned to build mutas then he wouldn'tve built 2 hydras that early. Please believe what I say.
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EPT
