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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:21 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:09 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture? He built a spire planning to use it. But after it finished, he ended up not using it for anything at all, because he realized that he'd lose his third if he did. So he researched lurker late in order to protect the third. There's no way to explain the spire otherwise. Calm just got totally fucked over. The following list is stuff that was either simply unlucky for calm or brilliant by Fantasy. - cross positions made his 9 pool less effective - Fantasy sent out marines into the map to kill his overlord even though he knew lings were running around... on the surface a risky decision - Fantasy is known for playing mech so Calm got a useless hydra den - Fantasy scouted the third base BEFORE it went up - cross positions kept Calm from scouting the fact that Fantasy wasn't going mech - the drones lolololol im sorry but youre wrong
Unhelpful.
Even funnier because he's right. Do you seriously think  Calm went into the game with some kind of awful build order that he had never tested? Seriously?
Calm's strategy could have been really devastating except  fantasy made a number of small moves which motbob notes above that turned the game into an utter disaster for zerg. To say (as you did earlier) that the overlord snipes didn't make a difference is pure folly. Calm didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but fantasy was just waaay ahead of him, and never let go.
EDIT: To the post below
+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2009 10:31 Holgerius wrote:
Enough of this ''Enough of this "it was more Calm's loss than fantasy's win" garbage''-garbage. There is no excuse for not having a single Lair unit (barely any fighting units at all for that matter) and 30-40 in food around the 9 minute mark. Losing 2 Overlords does not put you in that situation. Clam played like an ass, period. He knew Fantasy scouted his intention to expand to 4, by then he clearly knew Fantasy was going Bio, and still he went for it without anything to back it up with. It was like he completely forgot basic rules of ZvT such as ''Get Lair units to defend your third gas''. I'm sorry, but do you think you could have played better in that situation? Maybe losing two overlords doesn't set you that far back. How about having your build scouted - and it being revealed to be a poorly chosen build- marines parading at your front, and then your expansion scouted and delayed? Don't presumptious enough to suggest that Calm somehow forgot to make units in 9 minutes, or that Calm somehow decided he was above building defensive units. Recognize the difference between bad play and bad play forced by the excellent and destabilizing play of your opponent.
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Enough of this ''Enough of this "it was more Calm's loss than fantasy's win" garbage''-garbage. There is no excuse for not having a single Lair unit (barely any fighting units at all for that matter) and 30-40 in food around the 9 minute mark. Losing 2 Overlords does not put you in that situation. Clam played like an ass, period. He knew Fantasy scouted his intention to expand to 4, by then he clearly knew Fantasy was going Bio, and still he went for it without anything to back it up with. It was like he completely forgot basic rules of ZvT such as ''Get Lair units to defend your third gas''.
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i dont know what makes you guys think you're right, with the supply and timer overlay it's pretty easy to figure out what was going on in that game, and it was pretty clear what was going on which is not that he never planned on going lurkers, etc, etc.
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On November 26 2009 10:30 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:21 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 26 2009 10:09 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture? He built a spire planning to use it. But after it finished, he ended up not using it for anything at all, because he realized that he'd lose his third if he did. So he researched lurker late in order to protect the third. There's no way to explain the spire otherwise. Calm just got totally fucked over. The following list is stuff that was either simply unlucky for calm or brilliant by Fantasy. - cross positions made his 9 pool less effective - Fantasy sent out marines into the map to kill his overlord even though he knew lings were running around... on the surface a risky decision - Fantasy is known for playing mech so Calm got a useless hydra den - Fantasy scouted the third base BEFORE it went up - cross positions kept Calm from scouting the fact that Fantasy wasn't going mech - the drones lolololol im sorry but youre wrong Unhelpful. Even funnier because he's right. Do you seriously think Calm went into the game with some kind of awful build order that he had never tested? Seriously? Calm's strategy could have been really devastating except fantasy made a number of small moves which motbob notes above that turned the game into an utter disaster for zerg. To say (as you did earlier) that the overlord snipes didn't make a difference is pure folly. Calm didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but fantasy was just waaay ahead of him, and never let go.
its a very standard 3 hatch lurker with spire build, he simply forgot to research lurkers. Look at the supply overlay, when did he get stuck besides when losing his first lord?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
sorry i dont mean to come off like this but I really don't know how else I can explain that he knew mech was not coming and he was planning on going lurkers. The spire was for the larva fake, its a zvt build where you hide your den and morph hydras instead of mutas when spire is done. If he planned to build mutas then he wouldn'tve built 2 hydras that early. Please believe what I say.
He built the first two hydras way before the spire finished... so he can't have been doing the larva fake build.
I continue to maintain that the den was built in response to a mech possibility. If I were Calm, after Fantasy rashly sent his marines out to kill the overlord, I would assume that he didn't care that much about his marines' well being; that is, he had vultures following up.
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On November 26 2009 10:42 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
sorry i dont mean to come off like this but I really don't know how else I can explain that he knew mech was not coming and he was planning on going lurkers. The spire was for the larva fake, its a zvt build where you hide your den and morph hydras instead of mutas when spire is done. If he planned to build mutas then he wouldn'tve built 2 hydras that early. Please believe what I say. He built the first two hydras way before the spire finished... so he can't have been doing the larva fake build. I continue to maintain that the den was built in response to a mech possibility. If I were Calm, after Fantasy rashly sent his marines out to kill the overlord, I would assume that he didn't care that much about his marines' well being; that is, he had vultures following up.
Even if that was the case, please explain less than 40 in food count and no Lair tech units until around the 9 minute mark.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it.
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you cant have 7+ rines AND go vultures, he knew he was going bio...
Also he got queens nest really early, he was planning to go lurker and quick hive but didnt have the eco, he mightve not planned to a larva fake but he certainly planned to go lurkers, what makes you think otherwise?
If you still can't see how scouting 7 marines at 4 minutes means no mech then we can't really continue with this because you don't understand basic build orders.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:46 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:42 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
sorry i dont mean to come off like this but I really don't know how else I can explain that he knew mech was not coming and he was planning on going lurkers. The spire was for the larva fake, its a zvt build where you hide your den and morph hydras instead of mutas when spire is done. If he planned to build mutas then he wouldn'tve built 2 hydras that early. Please believe what I say. He built the first two hydras way before the spire finished... so he can't have been doing the larva fake build. I continue to maintain that the den was built in response to a mech possibility. If I were Calm, after Fantasy rashly sent his marines out to kill the overlord, I would assume that he didn't care that much about his marines' well being; that is, he had vultures following up. Even if that was the case, please explain less than 40 in food count and no Lair tech units until around the 9 minute mark.
I've already explained this. Calm built a hydra den until he realized that Fantasy was going MnM. He then built a spire, but going muta would have meant the death of his third. So he went lurkers, which were waaaay late.
As for the 40 supply thing, the game was just a fucking disaster lol.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:48 zulu_nation8 wrote:
you cant have 7+ rines AND go vultures, he knew he was going bio...
Also he got queens nest really early, he was planning to go lurker and quick hive but didnt have the eco, he mightve not planned to a larva fake but he certainly planned to go lurkers, what makes you think otherwise?
If you still can't see how scouting 7 marines at 4 minutes means no mech then we can't really continue with this because you don't understand basic build orders.
The den went up before he saw the other 3 rines. The game observer sees the den right before it finishes.
If you still can't see how scouting 7 marines at 4 minutes means no mech then we can't really continue with this because you don't understand basic build orders.
Stop being so fucking condescending.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:39 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:30 tree.hugger wrote:On November 26 2009 10:21 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 26 2009 10:09 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
roflmao why did he send two hydras to his expo then, to defend vs vulture? He built a spire planning to use it. But after it finished, he ended up not using it for anything at all, because he realized that he'd lose his third if he did. So he researched lurker late in order to protect the third. There's no way to explain the spire otherwise. Calm just got totally fucked over. The following list is stuff that was either simply unlucky for calm or brilliant by Fantasy. - cross positions made his 9 pool less effective - Fantasy sent out marines into the map to kill his overlord even though he knew lings were running around... on the surface a risky decision - Fantasy is known for playing mech so Calm got a useless hydra den - Fantasy scouted the third base BEFORE it went up - cross positions kept Calm from scouting the fact that Fantasy wasn't going mech - the drones lolololol im sorry but youre wrong Unhelpful. Even funnier because he's right. Do you seriously think Calm went into the game with some kind of awful build order that he had never tested? Seriously? Calm's strategy could have been really devastating except fantasy made a number of small moves which motbob notes above that turned the game into an utter disaster for zerg. To say (as you did earlier) that the overlord snipes didn't make a difference is pure folly. Calm didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but fantasy was just waaay ahead of him, and never let go. its a very standard 3 hatch lurker with spire build, he simply forgot to research lurkers. Look at the supply overlay, when did he get stuck besides when losing his first lord?
Well wait a second. Totally unfair question. Once he loses the Overlord, he is supply stuck from 5:26 to 5:53, besides having to spend the extra 100 minerals on the new overlord. This was actually a very important moment in the game, because fantasy has the lead after this. He plays perfectly and never surrenders it. Along the way, he builds on the lead by scouting and delaying Calm's third. He snipes another overlord. Then by scouting, and then sniping the drones mid-transfer. Then by taking out Calm's third. See how it builds?
Calm was playing a very precise build, made even more tenuous because fantasy did not seem to play as Calm expected him to.
Also, note that fantasy moves out and finds the overlord only when he sees Calm's lings chasing his scouting scv back at Calm's main.
EDIT: Zulu with the edits... Hit the preview button if you feel you may have written something you might regret...
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On November 26 2009 10:48 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:46 Holgerius wrote:On November 26 2009 10:42 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
sorry i dont mean to come off like this but I really don't know how else I can explain that he knew mech was not coming and he was planning on going lurkers. The spire was for the larva fake, its a zvt build where you hide your den and morph hydras instead of mutas when spire is done. If he planned to build mutas then he wouldn'tve built 2 hydras that early. Please believe what I say. He built the first two hydras way before the spire finished... so he can't have been doing the larva fake build. I continue to maintain that the den was built in response to a mech possibility. If I were Calm, after Fantasy rashly sent his marines out to kill the overlord, I would assume that he didn't care that much about his marines' well being; that is, he had vultures following up. Even if that was the case, please explain less than 40 in food count and no Lair tech units until around the 9 minute mark. I've already explained this. Calm built a hydra den until he realized that Fantasy was going MnM. He then built a spire, but going muta would have meant the death of his third. So he went lurkers, which were waaaay late. As for the 40 supply thing, the game was just a fucking disaster lol.
he never saved larvas which means he wasnt going muta
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tree hugger yes that was the first overlord he lost, he never got stuck because of losing ovies after that. If you think fantasy carried that lead till the end of the game because of how awesome he was then OK.
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motbob i cant argue with you if youre not calm so i'll just stop
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On November 26 2009 10:46 motbob wrote:
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it.
I haven't seen this game, but Jaedong did cancel a spire a bit ago... it's not like the top players don't ever make mistakes.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2009 10:57 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:48 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:46 Holgerius wrote:On November 26 2009 10:42 motbob wrote:On November 26 2009 10:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
sorry i dont mean to come off like this but I really don't know how else I can explain that he knew mech was not coming and he was planning on going lurkers. The spire was for the larva fake, its a zvt build where you hide your den and morph hydras instead of mutas when spire is done. If he planned to build mutas then he wouldn'tve built 2 hydras that early. Please believe what I say. He built the first two hydras way before the spire finished... so he can't have been doing the larva fake build. I continue to maintain that the den was built in response to a mech possibility. If I were Calm, after Fantasy rashly sent his marines out to kill the overlord, I would assume that he didn't care that much about his marines' well being; that is, he had vultures following up. Even if that was the case, please explain less than 40 in food count and no Lair tech units until around the 9 minute mark. I've already explained this. Calm built a hydra den until he realized that Fantasy was going MnM. He then built a spire, but going muta would have meant the death of his third. So he went lurkers, which were waaaay late. As for the 40 supply thing, the game was just a fucking disaster lol. he never saved larvas which means he wasnt going muta
then why did he build a spire?
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On November 26 2009 10:46 motbob wrote:
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it.
Jaedong once cancelled his Spire by accident, Flash once forgot rally points and never realized he had a million tanks less than he was supposed to etc. Shit happens.
Seriously you guys, go rewatch the game and then try to claim Clam didn't play a horrible game.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 26 2009 11:02 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 10:46 motbob wrote:
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it. Jaedong once cancelled his Spire by accident, Flash once forgot rally points and never realized he had a million tanks less than he was supposed to etc. Shit happens. Seriously you guys, go rewatch the game and then try to claim Clam didn't play a horrible game.
I have rewatched the game. Have you?
fantasy creates opportunities (like the overlord snipe) and forces Calm into making mistakes (like the tech switch).
Calm didn't just arbitrarily go up there and decide to get rolled. I'm sure he practiced a ton for this game- all games are essentially must-wins in that group -I'm also equally sure that he never practiced for what fantasy did to him.
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On November 26 2009 10:46 motbob wrote:
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it.
Calm was obviously flustered, frustrated, and nervous from the amount of puffing and headshaking he was doing. Him forgetting it under this situation, only hours after him losing his proleague game, is very possible.
As mentioned by other posters, Savior and Effort sometimes forget to get the upgrade for cracklings, Stork, more than once, has forgotten to get dragoon range, Flash forgot what a rally point is and loses to Leta, Jaedong cancels his spire and completely ruins his game against Bisu. Shit happens.
On November 26 2009 11:05 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 11:02 Holgerius wrote:On November 26 2009 10:46 motbob wrote:
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it. Jaedong once cancelled his Spire by accident, Flash once forgot rally points and never realized he had a million tanks less than he was supposed to etc. Shit happens. Seriously you guys, go rewatch the game and then try to claim Clam didn't play a horrible game. I have rewatched the game. Have you? fantasy creates opportunities (like the overlord snipe) and forces Calm into making mistakes (like the tech switch). Calm didn't just arbitrarily go up there and decide to get rolled. I'm sure he practiced a ton for this game- all games are essentially must-wins in that group -I'm also equally sure that he never practiced for what fantasy did to him.
Yes and it is up to Calm to make good decisions. If he makes a bad decision is it his fault and not because Fantasy forced him into anything.
Fantasy played very, very well and no one is even arguing against that. We're saying Calm played like shit, reacted like shit, and constantly made shitty decisions. I can't see how that is not true.
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On November 26 2009 11:05 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 11:02 Holgerius wrote:On November 26 2009 10:46 motbob wrote:
And for you to claim that the #3 player in KeSPA forgot to research lurker in a 3 hatch lurker build is really pushing it. Jaedong once cancelled his Spire by accident, Flash once forgot rally points and never realized he had a million tanks less than he was supposed to etc. Shit happens. Seriously you guys, go rewatch the game and then try to claim Clam didn't play a horrible game. I have rewatched the game. Have you? fantasy creates opportunities (like the overlord snipe) and forces Calm into making mistakes (like the tech switch). Calm didn't just arbitrarily go up there and decide to get rolled. I'm sure he practiced a ton for this game- all games are essentially must-wins in that group -I'm also equally sure that he never practiced for what fantasy did to him.
Yes I have. Your BW knowledge must seriously be very limited if you think losing two Overlords will put you in the situation that Clam was in. As LetMeShine said; we're not arguing that Fantasy played bad, we're arguing that Clam played horribly.
And ya, I'm sure Clam never practised vs standard Bio. 
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