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On May 27 2009 14:33 Misrah wrote:
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
Sorry I don't normally answer these posts, as I'm a C- protoss and won't have much to contribute. I will refute this point however. I'm not sure if this is covered in the forums, but my own experiments reveal the following:
Protoss nexus produces slightly faster than Zerg hatchery
Assuming excess minerals and supply, one nexus will produce 50 probes in the same time it takes one hatchery to produce 42 drones. A different experiment reveals the reason why:
probe production time: 12 seconds
larva spawn time: 14 seconds
Protoss base economy is faster than Zerg
Hatcheries are responsible for producing overlords, drones for buildings, drones for defense. Nexus is responsible for just probes.
The Zerg counter these advantages in two ways: first, they are able to produce extra drones instead of men; second, they can and must expand more often than protoss in ZvP. You're sacrificing these in favor of hydralisks, so you will be behind, just not as much as an all-in.
Canons do not significantly delay Protoss push
Your build is basically applying pressure against a Protoss to force more cannons, similar to how Protoss or Terran would force sunkens. However, Protoss economy is not hurt by making cannons. Every cannon he throws down is simply a delayed zealot (and a half). Every sunken a Zerg throws down is one less drone and minerals. When the Protoss push comes, it would be even more gas heavy than usual, which your standing army of hydra/muta will not fare well against.
Now this build does have its advantages, but remember it has strong disadvantages as well. It's certainly not something I'd use every game.
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Protoss base economy is actually pretty even against zerg. Zerg do have a fixed amount of larvae that they have to balance between drones and units, but once their economy is rolling after an almost pure drone pump in the early game, zerg econ is as powerful as a protoss econ and now zerg can devote those extra larvae to purely units giving them a stronger military production. Since the zerg only has a certain amount of larvae, they don't need as many drones I believe as protoss does probes.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Ok, the first few pages, the millions of quotes on quotes is pissing me off.. stop that..
Nice write up despite all the quotes on the other pages, which you can't control lol.... :O
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United States17042 Posts
On May 29 2009 06:41 Racenilatr wrote:
Protoss base economy is actually pretty even against zerg. Zerg do have a fixed amount of larvae that they have to balance between drones and units, but once their economy is rolling after an almost pure drone pump in the early game, zerg econ is as powerful as a protoss econ and now zerg can devote those extra larvae to purely units giving them a stronger military production. Since the zerg only has a certain amount of larvae, they don't need as many drones I believe as protoss does probes.
There's really too many variables to attempt to do this kind of analysis. Zerg units arn't protoss units, and their effectiveness can't really be measured in the same way.
For example, let's go ahead and assume (for the sake of argument) that zerg economy is half that of the protoss economy when we're talking purely about minerals in. That's okay, if the zerg units are twice as cost effective (critical mass of hydra against slow zeals, or lurker against anything w/out obs). Imo, there's too many variables to do any sort of analysis that says "42 drones < > = 50 probes" (at that point, mineral patches matter more anyway obv). Hat count matters more, and obviously unit counters/unit cost effectiveness matters more than anything else.
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Ok, reading the back and forth as it is now, I think I'm missing the point of this build...
I thought the idea was to put false pressure on the zerg by allowing him to scout the early den and hydras...you're forcing him to put down a number of cannons as you've put him under the impression you're doing some kind of a two or three hat bust, but once the probe is taken out (by the hydras, I would assume), you begin pumping drones again?
As long as you can deny scouting and you continue to show the hydras you built in front of his base, forcing him to add 6-8 cannons will be quite a blow...one that may be enough offset the cost of the early den, hydras and upgrades...?
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United States17042 Posts
On May 29 2009 12:46 PH wrote:
Ok, reading the back and forth as it is now, I think I'm missing the point of this build...
I thought the idea was to put false pressure on the zerg by allowing him to scout the early den and hydras...you're forcing him to put down a number of cannons as you've put him under the impression you're doing some kind of a two or three hat bust, but once the probe is taken out (by the hydras, I would assume), you begin pumping drones again?
As long as you can deny scouting and you continue to show the hydras you built in front of his base, forcing him to add 6-8 cannons will be quite a blow...one that may be enough offset the cost of the early den, hydras and upgrades...?
That's pretty much how I'm reading it. It's a middle ground between a real 2-3 hat hydra break and the standard macro 5 hat hydra. It forces P to adapt correctly, and makes the game nonstandard. You don't need to invest in upgrades if you see P throw down 8ish cannons at the sight of the hydra den - the den has done it's job, and the P saw the hydra. Similarly, the point of the muta in the op is to force cannons at the main+nat mineral lines. Z needs to adapt as well, but as Z plays more games, it should tend to favor the Z climbing the ladder.
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I'll work down from your first bullet, though I will say I'm interested in trying this build out since you've been defending it so much. You're driving my curiosity wild
-Though it may be hard to scout your main after my initial probe dies, I can scout your nat and figure out if you're going to have an economy that can sustain a transition to Muta (as well as count how many hydra you may already have as well as any upgrades. Though you're still claiming that you will kill my probe within the first couple of minutes allowing you to place the hydra den down and tech without me knowing?
-I'm going to play a few games. My ZvP is mehhhhhh (well according to ICC its above 50% atm and I usually can average above 50% on ZvP) but if you're strat works then I should have no problem, right?
-One of your opponents (sorry duduk for outing you again), according to ICC only seems to play ZvP and PvZ. I could assume that he's only good at these two matchups, or maybe only really one. His information is a bit obscure and the game you played vs him... it looks like he tried to lose. I never said C players suck I'm only using what you said about this build working...
-Koreans play at a higher level than foreigners, cmon that's obvious.
-I don't actually know how versatile this build actually is. You claim it's great vs. a number of types of Toss play, but I haven't tried it myself. From reading this it doesn't seem overly versatile...
-It's not making a Protoss play outside of their comfort zone. Hydra play doesn't really phase me as a toss player, since everyone does it.
-First bullet answer revamp.
-almost 8 minutes for muta? Okay thats fine, but I would probably (if anything) just delay the stargate tech and focus on powering up my zealots/archons/HT. I'm sure there's a clever way of making sure that I have enough cannon support at my nat, and then by 7:30 I need to get 3 cannons at my main or just pressure to keep your muta away from my main. I'm just thinking hypothetically about what I could do to delay my stargate successfully. If I saw 2 hydra sitting outside my base early I wouldn't bother with the stargate initially, and I don't think you're realizing that. It's a poor adaptation to your build if I'm assuming you have a hydra den already and possibly teching lair, your lair tech will be late, and you're probably teching speed and range somewhere in the middle and if you're making hydra, I can assume when your spire is ready.
I'm not trying to discourage the build, I'm just pointing out immediate flaws I think that will make this build fail in the long-run, and you're just getting defensive about everything I say so that doesn't tell me you're taking mine or any other advice seriously.
Ok giving your post the time it deserves:
1. Your probe will see my den place, and pop- along with my drones returning to the gas after the den is up. Your probe will also see about 2 hydra being produced before it is killed. Assuming that you have another probe just lying around the map- there will be no other way to reliably scout me untill your sair is up. I state this because, the only thing that you will be able to see is my nat. In the nat you will find 2 hatch, and a later gas going up. that is it. If you do not send a 2nd probe from your base immediately and hid it somewhere, i am going to have an ever growing group of hydra at your choke. Those hydra will stop any probes from even leaving your base.
2. I wouldn't think so. reason does not play Z main either, and it is his off race. Good luck- and post the reps if you please!
3. I had no idea that duduck was really that bad of a player. I just simply took his Icup rank, and thought to myself hmm- he is a higher rank. Better post this rep up. I am sorry, and i will try and find better opponents in the future.
4. so what.
5. My replays (which i realise do not hold any weight) show the build in many different situations. reasons replays are all of the same. The protoss is doing many different FE builds, and so far (even though reason has limited experience with this build) has adapted to them quite adequately. (but once again his replays don't hold any weight so i don't know how i can prove that to you currently)
6. If you are opting out of a stargate- that is fine. However then you will have been playing blind for quite a long period of time. GhostClaw was giving me some really good ideas, involving slow drops- and counters for what i my find you teching too. Forgoing sairs i feel is dangerous. Chons or not, my muta are going to be keeping you in your base for a quite some time. 3 cannons does not scare 9 muta in the least. So i don't think that you would be able to push.
7. Once again, i realize that you are not here to discourage the build. However i do get frustrated when i simply want to have people play 1 or 2 games give a simple summery of the game and then let me look at all the replays. Instead, i have to baby sit this thread- and argue point after point after point, when i would much rather be constructively looking at replays, and discussing in game problems. I am not trying in any way to say the build is perfect. I just get rage when people walk in, spend 5 min of their day to counter my build on paper- and telling me it will never work, with out ever playing a game.
@ ghostclaw- sorry about that. I will one word in the future, my bad.
On to your post
- as far as your idea about the variations with this build, i feel that i should explore that way more. Because right now the only thing i currently finding myself doing in the mid game is going muta. I need to get more replays, and find some time in between this and class to get some play time in.
-about your sair dt comment, i don't think that giving up air superiority is a problem. the reason that i belive this- is becuase i will have a dozen or so hydra, with a lord floating over them right by the protoss choke. There is no way a DT is going to even leave the base. As far as corsair reaver goes- your muta make an excellent reaver killer. Coupled with some hydra around your expos and main, i don't think that i see much of a problem. I mean if you kill that first shuddle- then you are really really far ahead.
-I really don't feel like i can give you adeqate responses because frankly most of your ideas have never dawned on me. I really like the slow drop idea, or possibly you could even transition to lurkers. The hydra at the choke would make sure the P doesn't get the third up quick, and provided that you took expansions with your 5th and 6th hatch, you could be looking at 4 gas easy. That would definatly be enough to go with lurks, and just continue your contain. (provided you don't teck muta at all)
@ hunter3
On May 29 2009 06:37 hunter3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 14:33 Misrah wrote:
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
Sorry I don't normally answer these posts, as I'm a C- protoss and won't have much to contribute. I will refute this point however. I'm not sure if this is covered in the forums, but my own experiments reveal the following: Protoss nexus produces slightly faster than Zerg hatcheryAssuming excess minerals and supply, one nexus will produce 50 probes in the same time it takes one hatchery to produce 42 drones. A different experiment reveals the reason why: probe production time: 12 seconds larva spawn time: 14 seconds Protoss base economy is faster than ZergHatcheries are responsible for producing overlords, drones for buildings, drones for defense. Nexus is responsible for just probes. The Zerg counter these advantages in two ways: first, they are able to produce extra drones instead of men; second, they can and must expand more often than protoss in ZvP. You're sacrificing these in favor of hydralisks, so you will be behind, just not as much as an all-in. Canons do not significantly delay Protoss pushYour build is basically applying pressure against a Protoss to force more cannons, similar to how Protoss or Terran would force sunkens. However, Protoss economy is not hurt by making cannons. Every cannon he throws down is simply a delayed zealot (and a half). Every sunken a Zerg throws down is one less drone and minerals. When the Protoss push comes, it would be even more gas heavy than usual, which your standing army of hydra/muta will not fare well against. Now this build does have its advantages, but remember it has strong disadvantages as well. It's certainly not something I'd use every game.
I think that ghostclaw has already refuted your point, but frankly i don't really want to type out 4 more paragraphs answering your questions, because i have had the same argument with 3 other people. Go read the thread and see what i have to say. Or even better- watch the growing number of replays.
On May 29 2009 06:41 Racenilatr wrote:
Protoss base economy is actually pretty even against zerg. Zerg do have a fixed amount of larvae that they have to balance between drones and units, but once their economy is rolling after an almost pure drone pump in the early game, zerg econ is as powerful as a protoss econ and now zerg can devote those extra larvae to purely units giving them a stronger military production. Since the zerg only has a certain amount of larvae, they don't need as many drones I believe as protoss does probes.
The reason that zerg does not need as many drones as t/p is because they generally have more expos=more mineral mining zones= more efficient mining. Other than that, everything else pretty much right.
On May 29 2009 07:10 Clasic wrote:
Ok, the first few pages, the millions of quotes on quotes is pissing me off.. stop that..
Nice write up despite all the quotes on the other pages, which you can't control lol.... :O
sorry 
On May 29 2009 12:46 PH wrote:
Ok, reading the back and forth as it is now, I think I'm missing the point of this build...
I thought the idea was to put false pressure on the zerg by allowing him to scout the early den and hydras...you're forcing him to put down a number of cannons as you've put him under the impression you're doing some kind of a two or three hat bust, but once the probe is taken out (by the hydras, I would assume), you begin pumping drones again?
As long as you can deny scouting and you continue to show the hydras you built in front of his base, forcing him to add 6-8 cannons will be quite a blow...one that may be enough offset the cost of the early den, hydras and upgrades...?
I realize that ghostclaw has already answered, but i just cannot resist placing my 2 cents in.
this is not correct. I will try and explain this as clearly as i can:
once your den pops, your main hatch is going to produce nothing but hydra till around 7:00 min the game. Until then, your natural hatch, and your 3rd hatch (which was laid before you den popped) is going to be constantly producing drones til muta arrive. Now once you start your lair you will also be able to place your 4th hatch. Once this pops, you will continue pumping drones from that hatch as well.
You will have about 18/19 drones before you even begin making hydra. I haven't worked out the numbers- but that is your starting point for drones.
So in short: when the den pops, you have 1 hatch hydra pump, 1 hatch drone pump.
Once your 3rd pops you have 1 hatch hydra pump, 2 hatch drone pump
Once your 4th pops you have 1 hatch hydra pump, 3 hatch drone pump
Once your muta are off- 4 hatch drone pump.
Does that clear things up?
Ok hope i answered everyone?
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United States17042 Posts
-about your sair dt comment, i don't think that giving up air superiority is a problem. the reason that i belive this- is becuase i will have a dozen or so hydra, with a lord floating over them right by the protoss choke. There is no way a DT is going to even leave the base. As far as corsair reaver goes- your muta make an excellent reaver killer. Coupled with some hydra around your expos and main, i don't think that i see much of a problem. I mean if you kill that first shuddle- then you are really really far ahead.
It's an adjustment (realize that we're now talking about random counters, which isn't really about your build). DT's aren't going to leave the base by foot, but what about by shuttle? what about 2 stargate corsair reaver and dweb? (andromada). What about +1 2 stargate corsairs? These builds arn't exactly standard, but I think that the p turtling should allow for greater tech. *sighs* this isn't really going to go anywhere though, because there are many many different "tech level 2" ways that both zerg and protoss can go from here.
-I really don't feel like i can give you adeqate responses because frankly most of your ideas have never dawned on me. I really like the slow drop idea, or possibly you could even transition to lurkers. The hydra at the choke would make sure the P doesn't get the third up quick, and provided that you took expansions with your 5th and 6th hatch, you could be looking at 4 gas easy. That would definatly be enough to go with lurks, and just continue your contain. (provided you don't teck muta at all)
I think the problem and the strength with this build is that P can choose to do one thing and run you over if you don't adapt correctly. Pick any specific midgame build, and P should be able to win with it because your larger drone count won't kick in "fast enough" (game dependent). On the flip side, if you can hard counter whatever they do, you basically autowin. You also force P to attempt to respond correctly.
Let's pick a random strong build that doesn't involve the forge (you should be able to snipe the forge to prevent any kind of +1 push. If you don't, you're going to be in a world of hurt. If you can prevent +1 though, life is really really good, because you can prevent a ground push).
2 stargate reaver. It's a basic basic build for harass, and is made to gain air control and then harass like sin with no ground army. It's not a bad choice if you already have 8ish cannons in front of your nat. Following your build in the op, 2 stargates directly counters 3 hat muta (3 corsairs when muta hit, and that's assuming that you have no hydra (iirc though, feel free to take issue with any of the assumed timings, as I haven't seen or done 2 stargate reaver harass in quite a while). If you're muta are even further delayed with the den and such, protoss may be at 5 corsairs, which is plenty to deal with the 9 muta. From there, life gets worse. life is better if you scout the 2 stargates, and don't switch to muta, but I think that you still won't be able to counter the corsair reaver....maybe? It comes down to micro, and it's standard corsair reaver vs 4-5 hat hydra, except you won't have the economy or upgrades...(although you have a shot at being even if you snipe the forge).
The centerpiece of your build is showing aggression. Everything else after that on both sides is an adaptation, so everything "could" work, and everything "may not" work.
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United States17042 Posts
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You must have proposed a good build if there is so much debate and theorycrafting going on over it. My criticisms in the beginning of the thread were only to help point out flaws--I really want to try this build when I try to offrace my zerg to D+.
Good luck with the critics. I'm protoss(D+ only though ^_^), but I definitely want to play against this build sometime and see what playing against it feels like.
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Really enjoyed this guide. I'm going to give this a try, thanks for your effort!
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I just had to reply after reading one thing in particular:
assuming both players are decent - a Protoss player that makes 10 cannons early in the game is GOING TO LOSE.
There is no "he'll recover his economy and catch up" - no. It's over.
1500 minerals is GG.Cannons suck vs Hydras because while 1 cannon > 2 hydras, 10 cannons > 20-30 hydras easily. It just doesn't stack up the way some of you are thinking.
You also have to take into account that with no speedzeals or DTs the Hydras give the Zerg map control -> he pumps drones later and mass expands. How can you possibly break out? You can't because you don't have enough gates or zealots to do anything.
I don't think I've ever seen a game where a Protoss player went 10 cannons vs Hydras and lived. Usually they use Zealots in combination so that if Hydras want to get in range of cannons they'd be popped by Zeals. Zealots having high HP aren't going to be sniped so easily, and once they get speed upgrade -> map control and now the Zerg is punished because those same zeals are going to tear hydras and lings and that nat apart.
You can't do that if you built 10 cannons.
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Just to clarify, because I have been making lot's of mistakes..
If I see mass zeals, I stop drones from all hatches and pump hydra constantly. Am I still teching to muta?
If he goes reaver sair, do I still make muta? Do I even make scourge? Or just go mass expo/hydra.
These two styles have been giving me some trouble because they have been less common and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do.
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United States17042 Posts
On May 29 2009 22:01 Reason wrote:
Just to clarify, because I have been making lot's of mistakes..
If I see mass zeals, I stop drones from all hatches and pump hydra constantly. Am I still teching to muta?
If he goes reaver sair, do I still make muta? Do I even make scourge? Or just go mass expo/hydra.
These two styles have been giving me some trouble because they have been less common and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do.
Depends how much time and what kind of mass zealot attack they're making. If it's pure zeal, and 0 archon/goon, and you have time, muta are better (especially if zeals have +1). no +1, then hydra is easier, and if you have no time, then hydra. You should never be forced to sunken with this build, as you can choose to give up econ for units at any point. You should also be far enough ahead because you're forcing cannons at the beginning. If they don't put up enough cannons, immediately switch to 2-3-4 hat hydra and break the P.
reaver/sair, I would advise against muta, yes on scourge (if you can keep their corsair count down). Think about hiding hydra using burrow in your mineral lines to snipe the reaver/ shuttle. The reason why I advise against muta is because 7 corsairs rip apart muta, and you already have hydra. In this particular situation, you may want to build 1 sunk/1 spore at every location to just prevent harass.
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The only problem that i see with this game, is that if the players were actually good- and that protoss player didn't suck- zerg would have lost. Zergs economy was good, but he just played soo greedy and risky in the early game. If that protoss would have scouted more than once- he could have seen his natural, and been able to understand exactly the zerg strategy. Also missing those expo's was un-acceptable.
Also lets not forget that building those cannons didn't set that protoss player very far behind at all. Probably only 1 min at the most. So really i just blame it on the inadequacy of the protoss player.
+ Show Spoiler +God that vid was AMAZING! I loved the entire game. Bisu had no clue what to do! That is exactly what i want to happen with my build. thanks for showing me that game ghostclaw- it was really great! The zerg player just goes about it with a very different build order
On May 29 2009 18:26 Ace wrote:
I just had to reply after reading one thing in particular:
assuming both players are decent - a Protoss player that makes 10 cannons early in the game is GOING TO LOSE.
There is no "he'll recover his economy and catch up" - no. It's over.
1500 minerals is GG.Cannons suck vs Hydras because while 1 cannon > 2 hydras, 10 cannons > 20-30 hydras easily. It just doesn't stack up the way some of you are thinking.
You also have to take into account that with no speedzeals or DTs the Hydras give the Zerg map control -> he pumps drones later and mass expands. How can you possibly break out? You can't because you don't have enough gates or zealots to do anything.
I don't think I've ever seen a game where a Protoss player went 10 cannons vs Hydras and lived. Usually they use Zealots in combination so that if Hydras want to get in range of cannons they'd be popped by Zeals. Zealots having high HP aren't going to be sniped so easily, and once they get speed upgrade -> map control and now the Zerg is punished because those same zeals are going to tear hydras and lings and that nat apart.
You can't do that if you built 10 cannons.
wait- so are you trying to tell me that building lots of cannons in the early game is actually bad for the protoss? I never thought of that. According to everyone one else- it will barely do anything. At MOST it would only slow them down 1 min.
On May 29 2009 22:01 Reason wrote:
Just to clarify, because I have been making lot's of mistakes..
If I see mass zeals, I stop drones from all hatches and pump hydra constantly. Am I still teching to muta?
If he goes reaver sair, do I still make muta? Do I even make scourge? Or just go mass expo/hydra.
These two styles have been giving me some trouble because they have been less common and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do.
mass zeals: Your choice. Either go all in hydra and try and break him, or try and get to muta quickly. However if you go with the muta- realize that protecting your hydra are going to be key. Don't let your hydra all die lol.
Reaver sair: I have gone muta. I realize that they will get shredded by the sairs. But i only bring them into play as soon as the shuddle puts the reavers down. as soon as that happens, i send in the muta and snipe the reavers and suddles. I always figured that if i can stop that first reaver shuddle- i have the game in the bag. (but i play bad people so take my advice with a grain of salt)
You could always skip the muta, and just make scourge. But i would still play muta because, you can slow them down more. Think about it this way- If you get the muta, protoss is not going to be able to move out with his sair reaver until he has much more sair. If he does move out- you can try and muta backstabbing, to lure the sairs away- and scourge the shuddle, delaying him further.
But Ghostclaws advice is also very very sound.
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@ Reason
Ohh man! I just watched those two games against korea. I have to say that in the last game you could have won the game ez pz. He only had 4 cannons, and no zeals. But you didn't push. (also next time- online attack once range is complete, and you could have killed the gate, and possibly the forge.  You should have gone all in hydra- as soon as you saw him plant all of those gates. Secondly, because you didn't all in- and went for muta, you should pull your hydra back from his choke a sap and have them go to your expos and wait till muta. Your muta did the job perfectly, and made him put up even more cannons. But his zeals did to much damage to you in the end
With a cannon count tho- you forced 11 cannons. or 1650 mins lol
Just remember that with this build- you are going to need to do damage. If you don't do any (like in this case) you are going to be in a bad position. Other than those points great game, and thanks for sharing!
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United States17042 Posts
The only problem that i see with this game, is that if the players were actually good- and that protoss player didn't suck- zerg would have lost. Zergs economy was good, but he just played soo greedy and risky in the early game. If that protoss would have scouted more than once- he could have seen his natural, and been able to understand exactly the zerg strategy. Also missing those expo's was un-acceptable.
Also lets not forget that building those cannons didn't set that protoss player very far behind at all. Probably only 1 min at the most. So really i just blame it on the inadequacy of the protoss player.
I don't understand this and then the spoiler. I guess I'm just confused? (you knock against "the protoss player" except I think that the protoss player is bisu...?)
1500 at that point in the game is about 1 minute and 30 seconds to 2 minutes (depending on what part of the game we're talking about). If you want to look at minute by minute mineral intake, go ahead and watch the tsl vods with the min/gas counter in the bottom right. Every so often it shows the minerals and gas that were gathered in the past minute, so you can get some sort of reading.
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On May 30 2009 02:13 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +
The only problem that i see with this game, is that if the players were actually good- and that protoss player didn't suck- zerg would have lost. Zergs economy was good, but he just played soo greedy and risky in the early game. If that protoss would have scouted more than once- he could have seen his natural, and been able to understand exactly the zerg strategy. Also missing those expo's was un-acceptable.
Also lets not forget that building those cannons didn't set that protoss player very far behind at all. Probably only 1 min at the most. So really i just blame it on the inadequacy of the protoss player.
I don't understand this and then the spoiler. I guess I'm just confused? (you knock against "the protoss player" except I think that the protoss player is bisu...?) 1500 at that point in the game is about 1 minute and 30 seconds to 2 minutes (depending on what part of the game we're talking about). If you want to look at minute by minute mineral intake, go ahead and watch the tsl vods with the min/gas counter in the bottom right. Every so often it shows the minerals and gas that were gathered in the past minute, so you can get some sort of reading.
I was kidding! I would never mock bisu. He will always be better at SC than i ever hope to be lol
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@Misrah:
The Protoss does indeed need cannons but it's akin to a Zerg making too many sunkens vs a Terran just because they see marines and a few medics - if you overestimate you will die.
If you make too many cannons(like 10) vs 10 hydras and have no zealots you will be crushed. You'd be better off with 6 or 7 and a zeal or two and just dare the hydras to get in range and take a damage from the zealot and the cannon.
That replay of Bisu vs GoRush isn't really the exact same thing but if you notice how many cannons Bisu made look at how hard it was for him just to break out his damn base. By the time he even had a decent sized army with templars there were a shitload of hydras AND lurkers - enough to flank his army 3 ways.
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haha that bisu vs gorush game was rape. I guess it shared the idea of this strategy of forcing the protoss to overreact but it did so by only slightly sacrificing economy. The gas came after zerg's third hatch went down...zerg didn't have hydras till around 6:40.. I give up trying to talk sense into a brickwall. Obviously this is a strong versatile strategy that makes up for its early losses in economy later in the game.
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EPT
