On May 28 2009 09:54 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 04:59 citi.zen wrote:On May 28 2009 04:21 Misrah wrote:
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two.
on #1 - I only suggested doing it if you have a scouting advantage (OL sees P trying to cut corners and you kill his scouting probe).
Otherwise you'd move towards #2. Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out? What puts you in a better position: the earlier timing push vs. 5 hatch hydra or the later push (assuming you forced 6-8 cannons and maybe delayed the +1) vs. your build?
BTW, I am not trying to criticise the BO, I am genuinely interested in the answer and will try to test it out later tonight. If you are online maybe we can test it together... or maybe we can find a willing P :-)
First off- it's fine if you criticize the BO. I love it when people critique me. The part that i don't like is when people come into the thread, don't read the OP, dont watch the replays, and don't read the thread- before posting. My patience wears thin when people that have not done any of those steps simply comes in and thinks they 'can prove you wrong.'
1. If you were suggesting that then you are correct. (i must have misunderstood your post. I apologize i was completely in the wrong there.)
2. You bring up some good points in comparing this build to 5 hatch. The end result is important. However this build, and 5 hatch attempt to get there in entirely different ways. 5 hatch hydra is a defensive macro type build. This build is a more aggressive build. If you are playing protoss, and you do not force the desired amount of cannons, or harass hard enough with your muta- of course you will lose. However if you do force the cannons, and can cause some harassment with the muta, will it be enough damage to set you up with an advantage? It's your call.
I should start looking at this build compared to 5 hatch. It's going to take some time, but i think you are right. This should be looked at in depth. Because if this is inherently a weaker build, then it is pointless to play.
@ GhostClaw-First of all- nice writeup. It seems that you really studied the reps, and actually read the op. I agree with most everything you placed in your post.
1. Upgrades. I do realize that this could be a problem. If you can snipe the forge with your early range hydras, that can help out- but starting upgrades around 8:00 min in the game is very late. The reason that i have chosen to do this is simply because i am saving for muta. It could be very very possible to spend your first 100 gas surplus on missile attack, instead of going lair (after range.) However if you were to go with this rout, i would think that muta would be out of the question. Do you have any thoughts?
2. This brings me to your second point- drops. Really this could be very workable. I have stated in the OP that in order to save your 2 overlords from being corsair sniped, you place them over your hydras and 'contain' the p. Now this serves many purposes. The first is stopping any DT play, the second is to give your muta a 'safe spot' from corsairs, and the third is to protect your overlords. Slow drops could be very possible in this situation because- you will have 2 protected overlords hovering above the P choke already.
Going drops also plays well into getting your upgrades faster. Because you only need to waste gas on a lair and 200 gas on drop. Any time between then, you probably could get +1 cara and +1 missle for your hydra. (i have no idea about the timing, but a 1/1 hydra drop could potentially be deadly to a P with a low gate count.
3. I have no idea about the 2007 games. But i really should take a look at these. I had no idea that this might have been already tried.
@ultramagneticsWhat do you want me to tell you? I have repeated again and again in this thread that this build does not attempt to damage protoss economy, until muta are up. the hydra are simply there to delay. Once the muta are off, probe sniping is very possible- and very likely. (Unless protoss is going with mass sair)
Does this build give you a weaker economy than 3 hatch? yes. So does going 9 pool speed into 3 hatch, so does going 2 hatch, same as 12 pool, 9 hatch, overpool ext. Once again we have covered this.
Show nested quote +1st point:
You are hurting your economy by making hydras over drones. You are hurting your economy by taking gas early and hydra den. You could be investing in hatcheries instead.... You are hurting your economy by pumping drones from 1 hatch and hydras from 2nd hatch, rather then pumping drones from 2 hatch followed by hydras from 2 hatch.
Really? no way! So your telling me that if i don't build drones- then my economy is going to be weaker? This first point astounds me. We have already covered this, i realize this- and this has been covered.
Show nested quote +2nd point:
Your pressure isn't significant enough to damage a smart protoss. Basically protoss will start with only 1 cannon since protoss will have his scouting probe alive forever vs your 2 zerglings. Once protoss sees the hydra den protoss will make a few more cannons and make sure to scout your hydra count.
Ok a smart protoss will protect himself. Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal. then he will have to build more cannons to hold off my muta, so more wasted money. 2 cannons and 1/2 sairs are not enough to hold off 9 muta. I will be doing damage to your probe line.
-if you build sairs, you are taking gas away from templar, and weakning your already pathetic ground army.
-if you build chons- you are taking gas away from templar, and need to keep the chons inside of your base to defend against my muta
-if you build templar: which really is the worst idea because
a. your anti muta defense will be limited
b. you are not going to be able to push out, because you will not have a big enough army to supplement your Templar, not to mention the fact that i still have muta flying around your base.
So all the while this is happening, i will have 4 soon to be 5 hatch. I can make 1-3 rounds of drones depending on how far behind you are/ how much damage i am inflicting/ what tech route you decided to follow. Once again i will make 24 drones in the time you make 2. Allowing my 'devastated economy' to once again become on par with yours.
Show nested quote +Sooooo, where does hurting protoss economy come into play?
You are first off not putting any early pressure on so protoss can go 14 nexus, or forge->nexus->1cannon. Both builds that are strong for protoss economy-wise.
Once protoss sees your hydra-den, protoss will have the strong economy I just mentioned, and can easily put down a few more cannons over the next minute while his tech is only slightly slower (and I would imagine responding properly to your build would give faster tech time then responding vs 9-pool pressure (which is actually good...)).
Either way your economy is much worse then if you waited for some sort of timing hydra push or just played standard zvp and you will not have hurt an intelligent protoss..
Sooooo, hurting the protoss econ comes into play with the muta. Even if my muta do little to no damage, i will still have the time i need to get another round of drones out. negating any 'economic advantage' you think you have.
Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer.
I am getting tired of repeating myself. My replays all go into the late game. One replay in particular is on neomedusa- and shows the protoss player getting his third up before pushing out. According to you- he should have easily beat me because his economy is 'so much better.' And by taking his third, he is compounding 'his advantage' even further. If you would actually take the time to watch the replays- you could see what happened in the end.
@APurpleCowYou are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all?
@ IcarusI would like to see that replay if you still have it. It sounds like a really good game, and i appreciate your input after playing against it. Thanks for your time.
About the upgrades (please read my response to ghostclaw), i think that ghost claw mentioned the same thing- so i am going to ask you the same question: Do you have any ideas? lol
@ReasonI was watching your replays, and i have a little tip for you about the game you lost. Place your overlords over your hydra ball!! I think that i have mentioned this before- but this build stops DT play cold. If you would have done that- i think the game would have gone differently.
Also thanks for all of your replays, do you mind if i update the OP with them?
Once again- thanks everyone for your time and responses. I am exited to hear your thoughts.
If you have any replays please post them!!! I am trying to watch every one!
**********edit**********I didn't get to everyone so i will finish~
@Monkeyz_RuleYou clearly did not understand the BO at all. This is probably my fault (poorly written)- but i would insist that you watch the replays. at no point do you just have your den sitting around. You are not understanding the concepts of this build at all. If you read the op, and im sorry that i cannot write very well- watch the replays instead. perhaps that will shed some light on this?
@T.O.P.I guess that we will have to wait till friday. You playing standard protoss FE strats, and me with my strat. I really don't think that the economy is a big deal. the game on neo Medusa that i have up shows this. the p even takes his 3rd before moving out, and i still easily crush him.
@FaTe)SoLBut! your forgetting one important thing! zerg can make tons of peons at the same time, provided that you have the production. Zerg economy is not like P/T economy.
EPT
