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**More replays: From Reason documenting his C- to C zvp run using this build solely.**
*Reasons edits thanks buddy  all of his edits in red*
*Edit-new replay*
Hey TL. Once again it's your resident noob with another great idea ready for the wrath of the strat forum. Recently I have been having trouble with the zvp match up. I have read all of the great guides by superior wolf, w3jjjj, and all of the other great zergs that grace tl with their presence. While I will openly admit that reading this guide could be a waste of time, I decided to write it anyway, because I am having a large amount of success with it at the D-C/C+ level. I doubt that my limited understanding of SC is going to be able to help out your B and A players- but I know there are a lot of noobs (like myself) out there that might find this strat actually useful. So here goes-
This guide is written for people that just don't like the current 5 hatch, into muta play or for that matter any counter for the current protoss FE. This build is very flexible, the build is created simply to make sure that the protoss player is going to play honest the entire game. If the protoss tries to skimp on cannons at any time, this build is easily going to facilitate a 4 hatch, or 3 hatch hydra all in. So lets start out with the early game.
Scouting the protoss is going to be key with this build. This build is meant to fight off protoss FE! I cannot stress this enough. If the protoss is going two or three gate, or has proxy gated you are simply at a build order loss. However for this to really have occurred- you would have to play like a complete idiot. If you scout that the protoss is going heavy gates, or proxy gates first, don't place your hydra den- and defend as you normally would. On the other hand, against 1 gate, or FE this build suits it's self perfectly to set up zerg in a strong offensive position in the early, and mid games. I would suggest scouting at 12 drones to find your opponent, because you can still have time to continue onto a normal build order. (a condensed version can be found at the bottom of this guide)
The early game build order:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
constant drone production
Once your extractor pops send 3 drones over
When your natural hatch pops- build an overlord with the first larvae (should be either 14/18 or 15/18)
once you mine 50 gas pull your drones off, and have one of your gas drones immediately start a hydra den.
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.
*It is important to remember that during the entire time you are continuously pumping drones from your nat and main hatch. After you build your 1 pair of lings. However be aware that once your hydra den pops your main hatch will be solely producing hydra.*
Now the protoss is going to have his scout inside of your base most likely at this time. Don't worry too much about what the probe sees. If anything, the information that the P player is going to be receiving is going to be exactly what you want him to think- you are going 2 hatch, or all in lings with speed, or some hydra break strat. This works perfectly towards what this build is trying to accomplish- placing pressure on P. If you simply look at the math, you quickly see that 1 cannon is 150min. That is the exact cost of a gateway. The more cannons that you can force P to build the better. Every cannon that P is building is potentially one less gateway. This build, while it can easily switch at anytime to become a hydra break all in- is not specifically designed to do so. Instead, this build simply tries to pressure the protoss all the way through out the early and mid game.
Back to the build order~
At this point you should have the following- 2 hatchery's (both of which should have been continuously pumping drones through out this time, a spawning pool, and a hydra den that is just about to pop.
Now I have found that because of your continuous drone production, it is quite easy to afford another hatchery. The timing can fluctuate a bit here and there, however your excess minerals should top right near your den completion. This is the time when you should place your third hatch. I like placing it at another expo, because with this early hydra build- you are going to have map control for quite awhile.
You are going to want to get ready for placing your 3rd. When your den is about 50% complete- send another drone out to an expansion. I don't have a specific time when your minerals will surplus at 300, however please realise that you should place your 3rd before building hydra.
Once your third hatch is down, and the den has popped- send your 3 drones back to gas.
Here is where you need to make a quick mental note: Your main hatch is only going to be producing hydra for quite some time. Leave overlord, and drones to your natural and your third hatch. No larve that comes from your main should be wasted on anything but hydra.
To recap:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
once gas pops, 3 drones on gas till 50 gas then take them off (send one to build den)
3rd hatch right before or on the den pop.
Once the den pops, 3 drones back on gas.
Now here are some numbers that are going to be useful to you. These are the LEAST amount of drones you need to facilitate constant hydra production off of x hatcheries. The reason this is so useful to you is because these numbers are going to easily tell you if you can all in 3 or 4 hatch hydra, if the protoss is trying to cut cannons, and not play honest.
You need at least 4 drones mining minerals and 1/1.5 mining gas to pump hydra off of one hatch.
You need at least 11 drones mining minerals and 2 mining gas to pump hydra off of two hatch.
You need at least 16 drones mining minerals and 3 mining gas to pump hydra off of three hatch.
So as you can see- because we have been pumping drones continuously our drone counts before our hydra production are going to be around 17/18 drones. Now with 3 on gas that leaves us with 14/15 respectively. Now considering that we are only pumping our hydra off of one hatch you can easily see that we have a bit of a surplus.
This surplus is going to be used to power our teck- and nothing more. If you remember, earlier in the guide I was talking about how versatile this build is. This surplus is the answer. If you notice, with 17 drones and 3 mining on gas- if I really wanted to I could go all in, and have each of my three hatcheries begin pumping hydra. Or if I wanted to try and crack his nat- badly cripple P, I could just as easily go for 2 hatch hydra and then save my third for more drone production. All of these plays right at the early game are available at your disposal. For the sake of simplicity, I will continue this build order based on the macro approach to this build. ie. 1 hatch hydra pump only. My surplus will be used in teck, and drone production.
I am just going to quickly go through the rest of the build order, and then once you understand this- I will try and walk you through how you can adapt to what you see by the protoss.
At 23/26 build an overlord from your natural expo (remember to leave your main for hydra production)
With your first 150 gas surplus upgrade hydra range (hotkey G)
When your 3rd hatch pops, begin building drones from that hatch as well.
With your next 100 gas surplus get your lair
At this point your mineral surplus should be hovering near 300 right around the time your lair is starting. With these minerals build your 4th hatch.
Start your 2nd gas at about 25% lair completion
Once your lair pops get your spire
(once again realize this is with constant drone and hydra production)
Once your spire is around 350hp complete make sure that you build 3 overlords
Once the lair is done, get your 9 muta. They should pop around 7:40/7:50 mark
The mid game:
After you get your muta out, your main goal should once again be to simply force P to make more cannons, or if they didn't scout your muta- you can probably end the game here. However for simplicities sake we will assume that the P has build cannons. If this is the case, play on the defensive side with your muta. If the P has a considerable amount of Sair's just play safe. The hydra that you have built earlier should be still sitting outside of the P choke. Use this as a safe point for your muta if the P is making many sairs. Now at this piont the P is going to be stuck in a difficult position. They are going to need sairs to deal with your muta, and thusly because of the amount of sairs that you are going to be forcing- P's ground army is going to be extremely limited. If P does decide to push out earlier, look at the composition of his army. If P is going with chons, have the hydra shipe them- and have the muta take care of the zeals. If P opted for early HT's try and snipe with the muta.
Now from my experience, once you get your muta off- you are going to want to do a few things.
I like to get my 5th hatch down soon after my muta are off. Then I opt for hydra speed and ovie speed. Followed by +1 Cara, with +1 missile. (really I don't think that I can explain the timings for these upgrades, however I have a few replays at the bottom of the page. I am hoping that when you watch them, you can get a feel for the timing.)
The Late game:
After the muta are out, consolidate your economy. I like to build another round of drones, and as I said earlier take my 5th hatch. Once I get hydra speed, and ovie speed- I start going for a 3 evo chamber before hive. I normally go cara, missile, melle in that order. The beauty with this build is that you are not stuck to pure hydra. Because of the amount of hatcheries that you will be able to support, ling play is very very possible. I normally try and end games with a hydra ultra army. Once my hive is up I go straight for ultras, and then slowly grind down P.
With the early hydras you should have a good contain going on P. Coupled with you muta, P is not going to be able to grab their 3rd as rapidly. Once the build goes into the late game, starving the protoss is the name of the game. When P does eventually move out they are gong to take their 3rd. Because at this point they are going to be close to starving. Because you have had map control for so long, you should have 3 to 4 bases at least. At this point the game is essentially yours.
So- how does the early hydra fair against different FE P stratagems?
SairReaver: the early hydra build CRUSHES this build. There is simply no way around the fact that this build sets the zerg player up very nicely to stopping the sair reaver. This game is an example of how I played against this strat. Simply put, you can stop his first two reavers quite easily with your muta blob. In this game I ended up sacrificing most of my muta, but sniped his first two reavers and the shuddle. Afterwards because the p player had essentially left me to macro alone, I finished the game comfortably. Here is the rep:
2 chon push: Once again, because of the surplus this build offers- I could quickly mass hydra and crush his first push (which was quite small because of the amount of money invested in cannons) I made plenty of mistakes during this game, and while I couldn't snipe his spinning forge, I still deflected the attack easily. Afterwards, I could easily out macro him (because of his lack of gates)
Early zeals: While I do not have a replay to show you- I can instead tell you how to affective combat a very early zeal push from P. Because you should always be sitting at their choke, trying to be as annoying as possible- take note of their zealot numbers. If you see at any time that they are significantly larger than normal- turn all of your hatcheries into hydra pumps for a short period of time. Once your range hydras are at critical mass, no amount of zeals is going to scare you. (Also an important note about zealot vs hydra fighting. Don't spread your hydra out in an ark. Instead keep them in a ball. The reason the ball is better, is because then the zealots cannot all engage your hydra at once. You are going to be presenting a smaller surface area for the zealots.)
And of course what do you do if P decided to take his 3rd in zvp before pushing out? here is the answer:
**New Replay**
Ok this game i recently played. This shows what happens when the protoss tries to cut corners, and doesn't play honest.
Ok so that pretty much wraps up this guide. As usual I highly suggest you to try out the build, and post your replays in the thread. I know for a fact that most of you are far better players than I. Comments criticisms always welcome (unless they are from T_co) Other than that- flame away TL flame away.
More reps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Reasons zvp run replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Post game analysis by reason can be found here:+ Show Spoiler +
Hopefully i can get the time to analyse them more in depth as well. As usual if you have any replays that you would like to add post them or pm me. I would like to see them.
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I didn't get to watch any replays, but the writeup is good. My only complaint about the build is that you aren't putting any early pressure on the toss so he's going to expand early. Did these opponents 14 nex when they saw your build? I'll answer that myself in about 10 mins 
okay watched the games quickly. My big question is what is the benefit of getting these early hydras? You didn't use them when you made the den, and you didn't immediately start upgrading. All I really see is a hydra all-in modified to an expand --> Lair --> Spire build. I mean I would personally use 5 hatch hydra --> muta build since that's very effective and flexible. Though you're getting the earlier hydra you're not really pressuring. That and your opponents (at least that one game on Medusa) were not so great in terms of strategy and macro.
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What game on medusa? The 3 base before push p or the one that tried a 2chon zeal. the hydras do quite alot of damage in some of my games. Im a pro pacifist type of player, and really im not that aggressive. The hydra are simply going to force P to build cannons. Much more than the normal 2 or 3. This is going to slow down the gates by quite a large margin, and at any point if the protoss is not being honest, you can try for a hydra break.
The hydra also serve a few important roles.
1. They stop your first one or two scout lords from being corsair sniped
2. Stop any DT play stone cold.
3. Apply pressure throughout the early and mid game
The last game i have on medusa is vs a C+ player, so idk if he sucked or anything.
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I didn't really like your zerg on coke and zerg on crack builds ideas that you popped up earlier but this particular build is much better done. Good quality work.
I think the proper protoss reaction would have to be to turtle just the right amount and then push out slightly later than usual. Though that kind of ability to time things well might not exist at low levels of iccup.
The build depends on him either over reacting or not reacting at all. It's hard for the protoss to always react correctly.
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12hatch 11pool 12gas? Well, I firmly believe you need to go for 9pool or overpool speed if you're planning on doing any 2-hatching, otherwise the protoss will just see everything.
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On May 27 2009 08:33 Shikyo wrote:
12hatch 11pool 12gas? Well, I firmly believe you need to go for 9pool or overpool speed if you're planning on doing any 2-hatching, otherwise the protoss will just see everything.
He did sort of address this... but only getting 2 lings to chase around a probe means it could practically live forever, yeah.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you.
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On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you.
You didn't read it... at all.
Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there.
Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure.
Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.
I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point.
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On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you.
here is a replay proving what happens when the protoss tries to cut corners:
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Russian Federation134 Posts
i think this is a very good build
also in the python game im one of the obs and his opponent was on a 4game winning streak against c-/c players. So this strategy clearly works, and it shows.
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never ever ever ever ever ever 12 hatch when you wanna do a hydra rush, either 9 pool or overpool gas, get ling speed then put drones back on gas when the probe is killed.
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On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point.
1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes?
2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after.
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On May 27 2009 12:14 zulu_nation8 wrote:
never ever ever ever ever ever 12 hatch when you wanna do a hydra rush, either 9 pool or overpool gas, get ling speed then put drones back on gas when the probe is killed.
It's not a hydra rush at all. In fact- I am not rushing to anything with this build. i don't want to be sneaky, because i am not trying to be sneaky. Imagine T rushing zerg with some marines just to force sunk- that is the entire idea with this build. It is certainly not an all in play.
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On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after.
1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta.
2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.<
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.<
The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame.
Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later.
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On May 27 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.< The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame. Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later.
And you don't make any sense in your post.
1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME
2. I am pumping drones from 2/4 hatches the entire time i am pumping hydra off of one hatch. If you have 2 nexus, and i have 2 hatcheries (producing drones) i will produce peons faster than you. If you consider that i will have 4 hatcheries pumping 2 rounds of drones after the muta- 4X3=12X2=24
24 more drones, in around 2 min of time after the muta pop.
3. If protoss builds 8 cannons to stop my pressure, and then the muta- the total mineral waste is 150*8= 1200mins. Those minerals could have gone into gateways, or zealots. Because you are forgoing both- you will not push out at your normal time. In fact, if you were to build that many cannons i would have ample time to pump a third or possible 4th round of drones before you push out. Which would give me a far superior economy, and a far superior production rate. After my muta have popped, and i am droning up for a round or two- my mineral excess allows me to take a 5th and 6th hatchery, soon after the 8min mark. Your late, and too few gateways are not going to be able to out produce 6 hatch. Sorry.
did you read the guide at all?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:
And you don't make any sense in your post.
1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME
2. I am pumping drones from 2/4 hatches the entire time i am pumping hydra off of one hatch. If you have 2 nexus, and i have 2 hatcheries (producing drones) i will produce peons faster than you. If you consider that i will have 4 hatcheries pumping 2 rounds of drones after the muta- 4X3=12X2=24
24 more drones, in around 2 min of time after the muta pop.
3. If protoss builds 8 cannons to stop my pressure, and then the muta- the total mineral waste is 150*8= 1200mins. Those minerals could have gone into gateways, or zealots. Because you are forgoing both- you will not push out at your normal time. In fact, if you were to build that many cannons i would have ample time to pump a third or possible 4th round of drones before you push out. Which would give me a far superior economy, and a far superior production rate. After my muta have popped, and i am droning up for a round or two- my mineral excess allows me to take a 5th and 6th hatchery, soon after the 8min mark. Your late, and too few gateways are not going to be able to out produce 6 hatch. Sorry.
did you read the guide at all?
1. 8 cannons will slow the the timing of protoss by one minute, but it will not damage his economy.
2. Protoos peon production doesn't not equal to zerg peon production.If a zerg produces drones from 3 hatches, it doesn't mean that the zerg is better off economically compared to protoss. Zergs need more bases to be even with a protoss. Secondly, your build tells people to start with 2 hatch gas then a quick hydra den and then 1 hatch drones into more hatches. You'll have a significantly worse economy than someone who 3 hatch drones. It's calculus man.
3.Protoss could lose 1200 minerals, but they'll mine that much with time. He'll have to push after he recoups the 1200 minerals. But you shouldn't think that you'll have a better economy than the protoss. In fact, it's the opposite, while you're in your base making hydralisk, protoss is in his base making probes. Zerg's economy is exponential, you'll get punished in the mid game and late game for not making drones in the beginning.
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On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.< The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame. Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later. And you don't make any sense in your post. 1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME did you read the guide at all?
Building enough hydras to force 8 cannons is going to slow down your economy BIG TIME.
I don't like how you are calling out T.O.P for not reading the guide--it definitely seems like he did to me. Realize that you went 2 hatcheries in the beginning. How is this in any way conducive to a better economy than the protoss? You are somehow acting as though your build does not make your economy worse.
The protoss might be delaying the time that they push out at in order to fend off your hydra pressure, but the fact that you are going somewhere between all-in and economy heavy is going to ensure that your economy is not as good as his. Add to this the fact that you are going to be advertising your tech, meaning that although the protoss will be forced to cannon in preparation for a hydra break they will not have to prepare for mutalisks until later.
You seem to be forgetting that for protoss vs zerg, the more dangerous of the resources is gas. You are forcing cannons, great. You are going to delay when the protoss moves out. However, you are not in any way affecting the amount of gas they mine and put into units like templars. It's storm that breaks zerg armies, and your reduced economy is going to have a harder time dealing with that then a build that did not make early units.
I'm not trying to say it's a bad build; it in fact looks solid to me. You are just wrong when it comes to refuting T.O.P's points.
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On May 27 2009 14:08 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:
And you don't make any sense in your post.
1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME
2. I am pumping drones from 2/4 hatches the entire time i am pumping hydra off of one hatch. If you have 2 nexus, and i have 2 hatcheries (producing drones) i will produce peons faster than you. If you consider that i will have 4 hatcheries pumping 2 rounds of drones after the muta- 4X3=12X2=24
24 more drones, in around 2 min of time after the muta pop.
3. If protoss builds 8 cannons to stop my pressure, and then the muta- the total mineral waste is 150*8= 1200mins. Those minerals could have gone into gateways, or zealots. Because you are forgoing both- you will not push out at your normal time. In fact, if you were to build that many cannons i would have ample time to pump a third or possible 4th round of drones before you push out. Which would give me a far superior economy, and a far superior production rate. After my muta have popped, and i am droning up for a round or two- my mineral excess allows me to take a 5th and 6th hatchery, soon after the 8min mark. Your late, and too few gateways are not going to be able to out produce 6 hatch. Sorry.
did you read the guide at all? 1. 8 cannons will slow the the timing of protoss by one minute, but it will not damage his economy. 2. Protoos peon production doesn't not equal to zerg peon production.If a zerg produces drones from 3 hatches, it doesn't mean that the zerg is better off economically compared to protoss. Zergs need more bases to be even with a protoss. Secondly, your build tells people to start with 2 hatch gas then a quick hydra den and then 1 hatch drones into more hatches. You'll have a significantly worse economy than someone who 3 hatch drones. It's calculus man. 3.Protoss could lose 1200 minerals, but they'll mine that much with time. He'll have to push after he recoups the 1200 minerals. But you shouldn't think that you'll have a better economy than the protoss. In fact, it's the opposite, while you're in your base making hydralisk, protoss is in his base making probes. Zerg's economy is exponential, you'll get punished in the mid game and late game for not making drones in the beginning.
1. Yes we established this. I will say again that this build is meant to damage your timing. However if you are lazy with your cannon timing- i can always go in and end the game. If you actually think that you can build 8 cannons and think you would only be a minuet behind- you truly are an optimist.
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
3. losing 1200min in the early game is a big deal. Once again if you don't understand how this is going to slow you down- i don't think that i can argue with you. If you would take the time to watch any of the replays, or read the guide- you would see that my hydra harass begins before you even place your core. I cannot honestly think that a protoss player wasting 1200min is not going to have significant delays. And once again- the longer the game goes on, the more hatcheries i will have- which allow me to 'pop' rounds of drones. I can build 12 drones by the time you make 2 once i get 4 hatcheries. With my build, i get 4 hatch right after i start my lair. So please explain to me how i cannot 'play catchup' with you?
If you would like- race yourself. Play protoss building only nexus, pylons and probes and see how fast you can max. Then play zerg building only hatcheries, lords, and drones. Who do you think would max faster?
You don't bring up any points that have not been addressed in the guide.
the answer!!!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 27 2009 14:22 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.< The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame. Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later. And you don't make any sense in your post. 1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME did you read the guide at all? Building enough hydras to force 8 cannons is going to slow down your economy BIG TIME. I don't like how you are calling out T.O.P for not reading the guide--it definitely seems like he did to me. Realize that you went 2 hatcheries in the beginning. How is this in any way conducive to a better economy than the protoss? You are somehow acting as though your build does not make your economy worse. The protoss might be delaying the time that they push out at in order to fend off your hydra pressure, but the fact that you are going somewhere between all-in and economy heavy is going to ensure that your economy is not as good as his. Add to this the fact that you are going to be advertising your tech, meaning that although the protoss will be forced to cannon in preparation for a hydra break they will not have to prepare for mutalisks until later. You seem to be forgetting that for protoss vs zerg, the more dangerous of the resources is gas. You are forcing cannons, great. You are going to delay when the protoss moves out. However, you are not in any way affecting the amount of gas they mine and put into units like templars. It's storm that breaks zerg armies, and your reduced economy is going to have a harder time dealing with that then a build that did not make early units. I'm not trying to say it's a bad build; it in fact looks solid to me. You are just wrong when it comes to refuting T.O.P's points.
The gas argument is valid- however i have taken this into account as well. If you look at any of the replays (other than the reaver sair) you will notice that the protoss is always faced with a huge problem. What should they do with their Templar. Templar timing will be late. Also consider that i will have 9 muta out and flying around the p. If he builds chons to stop the muta, i have hydra. If he decides to just go straight for HT- then i have the early muta to snipe them. HT are not deadly if they do not have an army to supplement their storms. Because of the delays, and the limited gateways- P is not going to have a huge army. Its even worse if the P decides to invest in corsairs to fend off my 9 muta. Each sair is worth 100 gas- further delaying any significant HT army.
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great writeup (:
+ Show Spoiler +definately going to try this form of 3hatch hydra on someone :D
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The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying...
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Very nicely written guide.
I figure if you are gonna go all in, just go completely in, or if you are gonna be greedy, take all you can before you are crushed.
I would agree that the protoss is better off if you don't pressure him right off the bat. That's the point of early hydra, you break them and do damage. You gotta commit one way or another. Being units or eco.
Question, how would a nony style 2 base timing attack do against this build?
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Ok I read it.
For Misrah+ Show Spoiler +You have clearly put a lot of time and effort into this build and the format of your post is very nice. Before I have even finished the first section though, this is staring out at me. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/userstream.phpOn May 26 2009 11:54 Misrah wrote:
The early game build order:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
*It is very important that you continuously pump drones form your natural hatch during this point in the build.*
Once your extractor pops send 3 drones over
When your natural hatch pops- build an overlord with the first larvae (should be either 14/18 or 15/18)
once you mine 50 gas pull your drones off, and have one of your gas drones immediately start a hydra den.
*It is important to remember that during the entire time you are continuously pumping drones from your nat and main hatch. However be aware that once your hydra den pops one hatch will be solely producing hydra.*
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.
I just want to say straight off this is purely about your write up, not about the build itself. Bolded section 1: What natural hatch? The natural hatch is still making, and this line confused me a lot. Did you mean main hatchery? If so, correct the typo. If not, this line is unnecessary/chronologically misplaced. Don't tell me what to do with the natural hatchery when it is still making... Bolded section 2: Make 2 lings when pool pops? But I have already thrown down hydra den and I am constantly producing drones... this line is definitely chronologically misplaced. Try to make the writeup follow the build order exactly, eg in this instance you tell me to place hydra den and then pump probes continuously, then AFTER that you tell me that I should have made 2 lings when the pool came up. I know it may seem like a minor point but trust me I have no ill feelings towards you, I am writing this because it gave me genuine trouble and I had to re-read everything again to understand what was going on. These are really minor points but you want to make it as easy to visualise as possible and the best place to start with that is to make sure that you put the steps and instructions (and tips) in your post perfectly aligned with the build order.To make it clear, I will re-write the section I have mentioned in the way I think it should be. Then you can see if you agree with the change and look through the rest of the writeup and make sure it is consistent, this means I do not have to point out every instance of this and you can do it yourself, we can use this one section as an example. They are minor changes but will help people meeting this BO for the first time a LOT. If you disagree, fair enough, it's your post  I'm just giving you my unbiased opinion as someone coming across this post, and the problems I had with it. I will score through lines that should not be there or are misplaced, I will colour red my own input and I will underline something you wrote already but where I have inserted it differently. If this all seems really nit-picky to you I apologise, my only intention is to help you. On May 26 2009 11:54 Misrah wrote:
The early game build order:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
constant drone production
*It is very important that you continuously pump drones form your natural hatch during this point in the build.*
Once your extractor pops send 3 drones over
When your natural hatch pops- build an overlord with the first larvae (should be either 14/18 or 15/18)
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.*
once you mine 50 gas pull your drones off, and have one of your gas drones immediately start a hydra den.
*It is important to remember that during the entire time you are continuously pumping drones from your nat and main hatch. However be aware that once your hydra den pops one hatch will be solely producing hydra.*Off the top of my head I think it should be your main hatchery that produces hydra because your natural will have very few drones, especially since you used the first larvae for an overlord. Regardless of what I think, specify which hatchery should be used, and for what reason. Since you are doing this build 1.only versus FE and 2. the same way every time (at least for the early game/opening build order), put in every single "usual" food count that you can for reference
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.*
I see upon reading further you specified it was indeed the natural hatchery that would be pumping drones, but there's no point in keeping this a secret. Mention it in the first place. Also if you intend to place your third hatchery at an expansion immediately or just before/after the hydra den pops it would be helpful to say "send drone to third base when den is 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 done" and specify which timing for taking usual third or another main (obviously it's map specific but you can generalize) so I don't come across that part of the writeup and go "Oh, I was supposed to send a drone at some point previously." Zerg can't teleport! In your recap remember to mention building 2 lings as soon as pool pops! "For the sake of simplicity, I will continue this build order based on the macro approach to this build. ie. I hatch hydra pump only. My surplus will be used in teck, and drone production." If you mean 1 (one) then put 1 (one) and not i (eye) or L (el)... minor but again I had to re-read. But enough of the minor details!
This build looks pretty cool... going to try it out now and hopefully I will be able to post some gg's.
Zerg has been my offrace for quite some time but I really enjoy playing them and I hate playing versus them so I am considering swapping. That said, although I've been playing Z quite a lot recently I don't think I am really good enough to critique this strategy: I am merely going to try it repeatedly and post the results.
I do think it's a really nice idea though.
Here are the games:
+ Show Spoiler +Game 1: He went 7 pylon (lol?) and cross map scouted me immediately !!! on colo2... so I took my third first and tried to stick to your build apart from that..I forgot 2nd gas timing so just went with what felt right but honestly I executed this build horribly... I'm hoping it will be more attractive in the following games. Nice idea, kicked ass this game, I got my 4th horribly late and it could have been a 4th and 5th no problem , he made exactly 8 cannons (haha... your sooo good misrah) and didn't move out for a loooong time (of course he kinda sucked, I'm still at C- but C soon, still making lots of mistakes :D) Game 2: Contains something I've always wondered about doing when P delays expo with probe, or even if they don't! Probably not the best example of your build but it was a fun game so I'll put it up. Game 3: Executed the build order more precisely this time. I think.
Game 4:LOSS!
In this game I follow the BO.. he techs dt and forces my hydras home.. my overlords are badly placed so he gets a few drones (omg) then while waiting for muta I don't keep my lings outside his base and before I know it I have zero sunkens (which I could afford but didn't make) and his army attacked, so I lost.
I think I could have defended that attack easily and come out ahead if I had only scouted properly...Maybe If I keep original overlord with my hydras and keep the dt in his base!?....
I think this build works nicely, but I haven't tried the standard 5 hatch hydra build myself so I couldn't compare the two... maybe someone else can do that?
Game 5: Gas 1 drone late + Lair at 200 gas + forgetting to make spire when lair comes up = LATE SPIRE. Still gg. Game 6: [Vs C rank player (previous 5 games c- vs c-) one more win with this and I'll be C too] Reaver/Sair destroyed my muta and laid waste to my drones... thanks to my 5 base, I come back. Damn reaver/sair turtlers!! da/archon/reaver/templar/carrier defense ;; Game 7: LOSS! Korean P with even stats who once again got his C+ this game. I play like shit and lose in a pathetic manner. First game of the day ;; I am confident the build would have carried me to victory were it not for my poor execution, you can see for yourself. Game 8: I've had breakfast, but I'm still playing like shit. Win though. Game 9: Another win. Game 10: Win Games 11 + 12:Versus KoreanAir B+ protoss. Lost them both;) I beat him PvZ after though :D You can decide whether it is the build or my play but... game 11 I think the build put me in a good position but my play lost it for me. Game 12 I expod in a really dumb place, not only that I saw citadel and mass gates and found myself frantically trying to remember what I was supposed to do against mass zeal. I couldn't. Doh! Thought it was nice opportunity to get reps vs a better player. Honestly I don't think I could beat him ZvP no matter what build I chose, my Z just isn't good enough...
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On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying...
Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down.
about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total.
3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525
So with my build i am trying to do the exact same thing. Also you cannot try and say that 1 cannon can beat X amount of hydra. Once the zerg has 8 or so hydra, you can snipe i cannon down very very quickly. I can guarantee you that 8 range hydras can snipe down 1 cannon before even losing 1. All you need is a bit of micro.
Also about the entire economy thing- read my other posts. They explain in a very straight forward manner- how i deal with economy.
Watch this replay and you can see what i am talking about-
@ Hoo ha-
I wish that i had a replay of this particular strat however i have yet to play a protoss player that has tired this against me. I think that i wrote something in the guide, about watching the zealot numbers. At any time in this build, you can have all of your hatcheries producing hydra. My thoughts on this are- because you will be pressuring the protoss choke, and having a lord in their base for a longer period of time, you should be able to see a protoss that is making zealots instead of cannons. If you see the protoss massing up zealots, then you need to do the same. Stop being greedy, and have your natural and 3rd begin producing hydralisk as well. Once you get to a critical mass (and have your hydra in a ball) no amount of zeals are going to be able to break you.
You need at least 16 drones mining minerals and 3 mining gas to pump hydra off of three hatch, you will still have 3/4 drones extra that are just mining minerals, and can slowly build a surplus. (this is assuming that you are going 3 hatch hydra.) because of this surplus you should have a slight mineral advantage, and instead of building your lair- you could just build another hatch, placing you at 4.
basically i would really like to play against this build. My thinking and theory crafting leads me to believe that because of the delays, and the zealot and cannon sniping i should be able to accomplish in the early game- should make the timing attack late, and rather weak. I would just think that 3 hatch hydra with range should be able to out produce anything protoss could throw at me (at this point in the game.)
@ reason: Thanks a lot for your help reason!
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About your collo build- this strat was at first specifically designed on collo lol. Your replay looked ok. But as you said you didn't have the bo perfectly down yet. ie. Don't get hydra speed, only get range- and then go lair. If you would have had your range hydra on his cliff you could have broken the front door easy lol.
Other than that- did you feel 'economically behind' at any point in the game?
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Misrah, yes. Two minutes later though I had a beasting economy, 4-5 base > 3 base uber macro IMO.
That said he wasn't that good and I don't know much about this build.
What you need to do I guess is get some replays and compare 4th + 5th timing for this build vs 5 hatch hydra and others... my feeling with 5 hatch hydra is because you are SO greedy at the start and getting all these hatches + tech and bases, you are condemned to pumping hydra until the end of time, or at least until you destroy his army or gain the advantage.( I don't actually know the correct 5 hatch hydra BO all I know is I very often end up pumping hydras off 5 hatches 3 base)
With this build I felt I was in control of the game as opposed to cheekily macroing up as much as I could whilst playing uber defensive.... I was the aggressor and the mass expander all at once and it felt very nice.
Ok gonna play some more... I'll request P because I keep getting T/Z ever since I'm trying to practice this build... I will continue to post the reps but be warned : Jello_Biafra just arrived with some weed and the quality of games may decrease substantially. Wish me GL.
Oh, how could I have beaten him if I had upgraded range first :O ? do you mean going 2/3/4 hatch all in hydra?
He did make 8 cannons....
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My understanding is one of two things can happen:
1. If P is too greedy and skimps out on cannons you want to contain/deny scouting with a few speed lings while sneakily building hydras from 3 hatches (stop making drones at 16+3). When you have sufficient hydras and his corsair is about to pop out, you will have range... walk right in.
2. If P is careful & builds enough cannons, you should lay off hydras & back to econ build. In this case you will have a sort of delayed 5 hatch hydra / 3 hatch muta build.
The key question is: will you have fewer hydras/later mutas and a weaker economy when the P moves out if he does make some extra cannons vs. a conventional 5 hatch hydra/3hatch muta build? My feeling is "yes", but have not tested this yet.
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On May 28 2009 03:06 Reason wrote:Misrah, yes. Two minutes later though I had a beasting economy, 4-5 base > 3 base uber macro IMO. That said he wasn't that good and I don't know much about this build. What you need to do I guess is get some replays and compare 4th + 5th timing for this build vs 5 hatch hydra and others... my feeling with 5 hatch hydra is because you are SO greedy at the start and getting all these hatches + tech and bases, you are condemned to pumping hydra until the end of time, or at least until you destroy his army or gain the advantage.( I don't actually know the correct 5 hatch hydra BO all I know is I very often end up pumping hydras off 5 hatches 3 base ) With this build I felt I was in control of the game as opposed to cheekily macroing up as much as I could whilst playing uber defensive.... I was the aggressor and the mass expander all at once and it felt very nice. Ok gonna play some more... I'll request P because I keep getting T/Z ever since I'm trying to practice this build... I will continue to post the reps but be warned : Jello_Biafra just arrived with some weed and the quality of games may decrease substantially. Wish me GL. Oh, how could I have beaten him if I had upgraded range first :O ? do you mean going 2/3/4 hatch all in hydra? He did make 8 cannons....
No you wouldn't be all in= but from the cliff, your range hydras could have knocked down those cannons, the gate and possibly the forge lol.
On May 28 2009 03:45 citi.zen wrote:
My understanding is one of two things can happen:
1. If P is too greedy and skimps out on cannons you want to contain/deny scouting with a few speed lings while sneakily building hydras from 3 hatches (stop making drones at 16+3). When you have sufficient hydras and his corsair is about to pop out, you will have range... walk right in.
2. If P is careful & builds enough cannons, you should lay off hydras & back to econ build. In this case you will have a sort of delayed 5 hatch hydra / 3 hatch muta build.
The key question is: will you have fewer hydras/later mutas and a weaker economy when the P moves out if he does make some extra cannons vs. a conventional 5 hatch hydra/3hatch muta build? My feeling is "yes", but have not tested this yet.
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two.
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Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down.
about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total.
3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525
...Except how the Terran isn't sacrificing economy by getting those units.
I don't see this strategy working at all. Cannons don't hurt the Protoss economy, they just delay the protoss push by a minute or so. Meanwhile, your economy is pretty terrible.
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On May 28 2009 04:31 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down.
about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total.
3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525 ...Except how the Terran isn't sacrificing economy by getting those units. I don't see this strategy working at all. Cannons don't hurt the Protoss economy, they just delay the protoss push by a minute or so. Meanwhile, your economy is pretty terrible.
What i have said earlier about someone asking the exact same questions:
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
Basically i am building drones at a slower rate, for a longer period of time. Once my muta pop, i spike my economy by producing 1/2 more rounds of drones. This boost gives my economy 24 more drones inside of 1/2 mins.
Watch the replays, this strategy works quite well actually.
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On May 28 2009 04:21 Misrah wrote:
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two.
on #1 - I only suggested doing it if you have a scouting advantage (OL sees P trying to cut corners and you kill his scouting probe).
Otherwise you'd move towards #2. Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out? What puts you in a better position: the earlier timing push vs. 5 hatch hydra or the later push (assuming you forced 6-8 cannons and maybe delayed the +1) vs. your build?
BTW, I am not trying to criticise the BO, I am genuinely interested in the answer and will try to test it out later tonight. If you are online maybe we can test it together... or maybe we can find a willing P :-)
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On May 28 2009 04:59 citi.zen wrote:
Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out?
P isn't just going to come out at the same time vs a 5 hatch hydra as he will vs this build. You're going to have to do something about a zerg going up to 5 bases very quickly, or you will die very quickly. Not only will P be moving out at different times, his army may have different composition.
It's a lot more complicated than "when the P comes out" because the two situations will be entirely different.
The toss isn't just going to move out at his usual time plus the delay of the cannons with exactly the same number and type of units and upgrades, he will be playing an entirely different game than his usual FE vs 5 hatch hydra macrofest, and will play accordingly or lose.
It's really just about which puts you in a better position, which is kind of hard to gauge... only lots of games will tell I guess... unless someone has the magic formula?
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United States17042 Posts
Pretty good. Nice writeup. It's non-standard, and makes the scouting probe think that you're going a fairly strong all-in, but you're playing with a different (prepared) mindset.
You're basically forcing the protoss to show that he can outthink and out adapt you, which is kind of nice. One thing that you might think about adding is going into a mass drop, or possibly even a slow drop map dependent - the fast hydra leads itself into drops with a larger number of units than you would have had if you went standard 5 hat hydra drop.
This build feels like an inbetween build for zerg - it's more aggressive than the standard 5 hat hydra/spire, less aggressive than a 2-3 hat all-in. Because of that though, you don't get to have either of the extreme advantages. It's going to allow you to get into lategame much more easily, but you may be behind when you hit lategame. I bet (i'm not higher level) that when you get to higher level, the protoss having free reign with the corsair is going to allow him to adapt, and then roll you over.
Addressing what I would do against this specific play on colo - more cannons near the front to defend against hydra break, get corsair to scout. See the spire, build 2 cannons in main, 2 cannons in nat. you're econ should be slightly worse from the early hydra, my corsair is going to be slightly late. I bet that the difference in timing between building 2 cannons at the front and 6 cannons at the front (on colo) is enough against most C level P players so that they can't adapt and get the cannons at their main/nat against the muta in time. I see hydra+muta, but with slightly lower drone count, I get ht, get my third, cannon my third, and we have a close fight with 3 base P vs 4 base Z.
Again, nice writeup though.
Edit: you say nothing about upgrade count or anything, but I guess that's an adaptation. I think that you're throwing away the upgrade game, and that's going to hurt you - the P should be able to find that opening with +1 speedzeal/ht/Archon somewhere...or maybe even +2. I hate to say it, but I think that you'll be behind in upgrades the whole game.
I think this build loses against a protoss who builds archons to defend instead of corsairs - the cannons force more gas surplus, which some (most?) protoss will adapt to by building archons to both defend against muta and tank for the cannons against a possible hydra break.
As I think about it further *sighs* someone can correct me who watched more games. I think this is what zergs were doing against protoss when they first started forge firsting (earlier hydra than you see now, basically den before lair play), but sair/reaver and sair/dt beats it (assuming that P builds the proper number of cannons so they can get their sair numbers up). Someone who was seriously watching games back in mid 2007 care to reference games?
then again, in 2007, the map pool heavily favored forge first PvZ (blitz X (auto 14 nex), reverse temple (forge+gate tight wall at nat) blue storm, python, zodiac, katrina (P heavy anyway) loki 2, persona (not used much at all), monty hall (dur) desperado (forge first, small choke). off the top of my head anyway.
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On May 28 2009 02:24 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down. about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total. 3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525 So with my build i am trying to do the exact same thing. Also you cannot try and say that 1 cannon can beat X amount of hydra. Once the zerg has 8 or so hydra, you can snipe i cannon down very very quickly. I can guarantee you that 8 range hydras can snipe down 1 cannon before even losing 1. All you need is a bit of micro. Also about the entire economy thing- read my other posts. They explain in a very straight forward manner- how i deal with economy. Watch this replay and you can see what i am talking about- @ reason: Thanks a lot for your help reason!
Misrah, I read over all your posts and still don't see any valid responses to what I posed as the weakness of your build.
You simply don't understand how ineffectively you are pressuring protoss while hurting your own economy (and NOT hurting protoss economy at all).
1st point:
You are hurting your economy by making hydras over drones. You are hurting your economy by taking gas early and hydra den. You could be investing in hatcheries instead.... You are hurting your economy by pumping drones from 1 hatch and hydras from 2nd hatch, rather then pumping drones from 2 hatch followed by hydras from 2 hatch.
2nd point:
Your pressure isn't significant enough to damage a smart protoss. Basically protoss will start with only 1 cannon since protoss will have his scouting probe alive forever vs your 2 zerglings. Once protoss sees the hydra den protoss will make a few more cannons and make sure to scout your hydra count.
Sooooo, where does hurting protoss economy come into play?
You are first off not putting any early pressure on so protoss can go 14 nexus, or forge->nexus->1cannon. Both builds that are strong for protoss economy-wise.
Once protoss sees your hydra-den, protoss will have the strong economy I just mentioned, and can easily put down a few more cannons over the next minute while his tech is only slightly slower (and I would imagine responding properly to your build would give faster tech time then responding vs 9-pool pressure (which is actually good...)).
Either way your economy is much worse then if you waited for some sort of timing hydra push or just played standard zvp and you will not have hurt an intelligent protoss..
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I agree with ultramagnetics 100%. Fact is, you don't hurt the Protoss' economy at all while yours suffers terribly. Combine the economy disadvantage with being behind in upgrades, and I don't see how you can stop a smart protoss from rolling you with a timing attack.
It is very inefficient to make hydralisks off of one hatchery and drones of off two, and it isn't hard to see why. You will always be better off going mass drones --> mass hydralisks.
Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself?
You're completely wrong here. The standard macro 3 hatch spire --> 5 hatch hydra gives a much better economy than your build does, but even with that build your economy is on par with the Protoss'. Building cannons doesn't hurt the Protoss at all - it just delays him for a little bit.
Basically i am building drones at a slower rate, for a longer period of time. Once my muta pop, i spike my economy by producing 1/2 more rounds of drones. This boost gives my economy 24 more drones inside of 1/2 mins.
Good Zergs do this with the standard build too...
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Wow nice write up. I'm personally not a Zerg player, but I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into this build. Good for you for sharing it on here.
Btw I'm a D Protoss player.
I did play a somewhat demented form of this build(I'll find the replay and post it on here). The early game was somewhat similar. I saw the hydra den and the hydras w/ my probe, and I immediately began massing more cannons in my natural. In this respect, your build is absolutely ingenious. I was working on a FE into a speed zeal +1 timing attack(4 gates), and it delayed my zealots so much that by the time I went over to his natural to attack, he had enough hydras and one sunken to fight my zeal rush off with ease. But afterwards, I guess the Zerg had no idea what he was doing, and I simply rolled over him. But that's not irrelevant.
I also noticed, while playing that game, that the hydras' upgrades were somewhat late, so it may be of some help to maybe figure out and put down the timing of the first carapace and/or range upgrade. But then again, it may be all about adaptation.
And to those of you criticizing the build... play it and see what happens. If you're a Zerg player, try the BO a few times and see what happens. If you're a Terran or Protoss player, play someone doing this build. If not... it's all theory, nothing is concrete. So play first, think, and then post.
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On May 28 2009 07:18 APurpleCow wrote:
It is very inefficient to make hydralisks off of one hatchery and drones of off two, and it isn't hard to see why. You will always be better off going mass drones --> mass hydralisks.
Unless you are trying to apply early pressure. Like with this build.
18 probes returning 1x8 minerals each 18x8 = 154. Per cannon.
Assume he only makes 5 cannons thats still 780 minerals....
You think that the extra 8 drones(built over a relatively long time) will really earn you THAT many minerals?
At first they may be of use at your natural/third, but you must minus 50 minerals building cost, transfer time for every single one of them and consider they return less and less minerals each as you build your drone numbers up on these hatcheries.
That's just the face value... you can pop the pylon/forge/gate/zealots quite often and incur greater penalties, especially with BO alterations due to replaced units/buildings.
I think the rate at which 1 hatch hydra instead of 1 hatch drone pump(from your main hatchery which already has more than 1 drone per mineral) will damage your economy in comparison with the cost incurred by the protoss is way less than is being made out. I believe with testing that could be proven. It may even be in the zergs favour, straight up...!(not considering units/buildings killed by hydra)
I doubt that it would be taking into account the delay on your 3rd+ hatcheries, but I don't think the difference would be too great and the economical effects would come later and not interfere with initial hydra + muta production.
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United States17042 Posts
I don't think that we're arguing that the standard 3 hat muta into 5 hat hydra, or spire first into 5 hat hydra isn't better - I think that we're trying to say that this is good as a middle ground kind of build, that forces protoss to adapt.
Yes, it hurts zergs econ. and yes, it's not quite as good as straight up macro 5 hat hydra. But it does force Protoss to adapt correctly more often.
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What is the point of getting your hydra den so early and then just having it sit there while you save for a 3rd hatch? Wouldn't it be way better to just do the normal 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch 12 gas and get a den with your first 50 gas? The only possibly way i could see the early den helping at all is if the P somehow loses his scouting probe within seconds of when your first 2 lings pop in which case you would have to make your 3rd in your main for him not to scout it rather than at another expo in order to force like 2 more cannons than he would have needed to build anyways.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 28 2009 07:39 Icarus wrote:
I saw the hydra den and the hydras w/ my probe, and I immediately began massing more cannons in my natural. In this respect, your build is absolutely ingenious.
It's not ingenious because you still rolled over him after putting up a shitload of cannons. You rolled over him because he has no economy.
On May 28 2009 07:46 Reason wrote:
You think that the extra 8 drones(built over a relatively long time) will really earn you THAT many minerals?
Yes, it earn you a lot more than the cost of the cannons.
On May 28 2009 07:46 Reason wrote:
At first they may be of use at your natural/third, but you must minus 50 minerals building cost, transfer time for every single one of them and consider they return less and less minerals each as you build your drone numbers up on these hatcheries.
That's just the face value... you can pop the pylon/forge/gate/zealots quite often and incur greater penalties, especially with BO alterations due to replaced units/buildings.
Protoss doesn't face any economic penalties for putting up cannons instead of gateways. His push will come a minute later, but it would come just as hard. The zerg who uses Misrah's build will be forced to build hydras non stop to survive this push. Protoss's economy will superior to the zergs.
On May 28 2009 07:46 Reason wrote:
I think the rate at which 1 hatch hydra instead of 1 hatch drone pump(from your main hatchery which already has more than 1 drone per mineral) will damage your economy in comparison with the cost incurred by the protoss is way less than is being made out. I believe with testing that could be proven. It may even be in the zergs favour, straight up...!(not considering units/buildings killed by hydra)
I doubt that it would be taking into account the delay on your 3rd+ hatcheries, but I don't think the difference would be too great and the economical effects would come later and not interfere with initial hydra + muta production.
I think you're wrong about the economy part.
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The thing about economy is that an extra 100 minerals early game is much more substantial than an extra 100 mid game.
Assuming that you were able to force 8 cannons, the protoss would be significantly delayed, but you wouldn't be in that great of a position your self. Should he scout that you've started pumping drones, you'll be even more behind.
With the early economic boost, it shouldn't take more than a minute and a half to regain the 1200 minerals spent. A conservative estimate of 24 minerals per second (3 probes bringing in minerals every second) for a minute would yield roughly 1 400 minerals. Deducting the cost of constant probe production and teching (it will have to be at a slower rate), you'd still have a substantial sum to cover most of the cannon cost.
The zerg, having sacrificed their economy for faster tech, would be on relatively even ground compared to the protoss, but because their peon saturation would be so much lower (plus the cost of hydras) than the protoss, they wouldn't absorb the loss as well.
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On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying...
Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about?
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Ya, he's right. Two hydras might have a bit of trouble though...
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T.O.P. I said he had no idea what he was doing afterwards... hence the rolling over. The build served it's purpose: it made me delay my zeal rush by making me put more cannons, and he fended off my rush easily. That's part of the purpose of the build in early game. He had no economy because he had no idea what he was doing... he stayed on 2(took down his third twice) bases the whole game, tried to pump hydras and take my third down. Hence the "he didn't know what he was doing" part. Maybe you should read through the whole post, think things through, and then post your own comments.
From my understanding, this build is trying to force Protoss(one that FEs) through making some early hydras, putting indirect pressure on him/her, and making him put down a few more cannons down as a precaution of an all-in hydra break in the early game. Because you're not pumping drones off of all of your hatcheries, you still have one hatchery making hydras, and that's enough to stop the first push(my zeal rush got stopped cold). After that, you can branch off to mostly anything mid game, and move into late game if needed.
I hope you guys actually used this BO or played against this BO before you start saying something... It's just theorycrafting if you haven't played it or played against it. Misrah and Reason has. I have(well, at least something similar to it in early game).
Btw, any of you know which replay website is best suited?
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On May 28 2009 04:59 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 04:21 Misrah wrote:
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two. on #1 - I only suggested doing it if you have a scouting advantage (OL sees P trying to cut corners and you kill his scouting probe). Otherwise you'd move towards #2. Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out? What puts you in a better position: the earlier timing push vs. 5 hatch hydra or the later push (assuming you forced 6-8 cannons and maybe delayed the +1) vs. your build? BTW, I am not trying to criticise the BO, I am genuinely interested in the answer and will try to test it out later tonight. If you are online maybe we can test it together... or maybe we can find a willing P :-)
First off- it's fine if you criticize the BO. I love it when people critique me. The part that i don't like is when people come into the thread, don't read the OP, dont watch the replays, and don't read the thread- before posting. My patience wears thin when people that have not done any of those steps simply comes in and thinks they 'can prove you wrong.'
1. If you were suggesting that then you are correct. (i must have misunderstood your post. I apologize i was completely in the wrong there.)
2. You bring up some good points in comparing this build to 5 hatch. The end result is important. However this build, and 5 hatch attempt to get there in entirely different ways. 5 hatch hydra is a defensive macro type build. This build is a more aggressive build. If you are playing protoss, and you do not force the desired amount of cannons, or harass hard enough with your muta- of course you will lose. However if you do force the cannons, and can cause some harassment with the muta, will it be enough damage to set you up with an advantage? It's your call.
I should start looking at this build compared to 5 hatch. It's going to take some time, but i think you are right. This should be looked at in depth. Because if this is inherently a weaker build, then it is pointless to play.
@ GhostClaw-
First of all- nice writeup. It seems that you really studied the reps, and actually read the op. I agree with most everything you placed in your post.
1. Upgrades. I do realize that this could be a problem. If you can snipe the forge with your early range hydras, that can help out- but starting upgrades around 8:00 min in the game is very late. The reason that i have chosen to do this is simply because i am saving for muta. It could be very very possible to spend your first 100 gas surplus on missile attack, instead of going lair (after range.) However if you were to go with this rout, i would think that muta would be out of the question. Do you have any thoughts?
2. This brings me to your second point- drops. Really this could be very workable. I have stated in the OP that in order to save your 2 overlords from being corsair sniped, you place them over your hydras and 'contain' the p. Now this serves many purposes. The first is stopping any DT play, the second is to give your muta a 'safe spot' from corsairs, and the third is to protect your overlords. Slow drops could be very possible in this situation because- you will have 2 protected overlords hovering above the P choke already.
Going drops also plays well into getting your upgrades faster. Because you only need to waste gas on a lair and 200 gas on drop. Any time between then, you probably could get +1 cara and +1 missle for your hydra. (i have no idea about the timing, but a 1/1 hydra drop could potentially be deadly to a P with a low gate count.
3. I have no idea about the 2007 games. But i really should take a look at these. I had no idea that this might have been already tried.
@ultramagnetics
What do you want me to tell you? I have repeated again and again in this thread that this build does not attempt to damage protoss economy, until muta are up. the hydra are simply there to delay. Once the muta are off, probe sniping is very possible- and very likely. (Unless protoss is going with mass sair)
Does this build give you a weaker economy than 3 hatch? yes. So does going 9 pool speed into 3 hatch, so does going 2 hatch, same as 12 pool, 9 hatch, overpool ext. Once again we have covered this.
1st point:
You are hurting your economy by making hydras over drones. You are hurting your economy by taking gas early and hydra den. You could be investing in hatcheries instead.... You are hurting your economy by pumping drones from 1 hatch and hydras from 2nd hatch, rather then pumping drones from 2 hatch followed by hydras from 2 hatch.
Really? no way! So your telling me that if i don't build drones- then my economy is going to be weaker? This first point astounds me. We have already covered this, i realize this- and this has been covered.
2nd point:
Your pressure isn't significant enough to damage a smart protoss. Basically protoss will start with only 1 cannon since protoss will have his scouting probe alive forever vs your 2 zerglings. Once protoss sees the hydra den protoss will make a few more cannons and make sure to scout your hydra count.
Ok a smart protoss will protect himself. Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal. then he will have to build more cannons to hold off my muta, so more wasted money. 2 cannons and 1/2 sairs are not enough to hold off 9 muta. I will be doing damage to your probe line.
-if you build sairs, you are taking gas away from templar, and weakning your already pathetic ground army.
-if you build chons- you are taking gas away from templar, and need to keep the chons inside of your base to defend against my muta
-if you build templar: which really is the worst idea because
a. your anti muta defense will be limited
b. you are not going to be able to push out, because you will not have a big enough army to supplement your Templar, not to mention the fact that i still have muta flying around your base.
So all the while this is happening, i will have 4 soon to be 5 hatch. I can make 1-3 rounds of drones depending on how far behind you are/ how much damage i am inflicting/ what tech route you decided to follow. Once again i will make 24 drones in the time you make 2. Allowing my 'devastated economy' to once again become on par with yours.
Sooooo, where does hurting protoss economy come into play?
You are first off not putting any early pressure on so protoss can go 14 nexus, or forge->nexus->1cannon. Both builds that are strong for protoss economy-wise.
Once protoss sees your hydra-den, protoss will have the strong economy I just mentioned, and can easily put down a few more cannons over the next minute while his tech is only slightly slower (and I would imagine responding properly to your build would give faster tech time then responding vs 9-pool pressure (which is actually good...)).
Either way your economy is much worse then if you waited for some sort of timing hydra push or just played standard zvp and you will not have hurt an intelligent protoss..
Sooooo, hurting the protoss econ comes into play with the muta. Even if my muta do little to no damage, i will still have the time i need to get another round of drones out. negating any 'economic advantage' you think you have.
Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer.
I am getting tired of repeating myself. My replays all go into the late game. One replay in particular is on neomedusa- and shows the protoss player getting his third up before pushing out. According to you- he should have easily beat me because his economy is 'so much better.' And by taking his third, he is compounding 'his advantage' even further. If you would actually take the time to watch the replays- you could see what happened in the end.
@APurpleCow
You are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all?
@ Icarus
I would like to see that replay if you still have it. It sounds like a really good game, and i appreciate your input after playing against it. Thanks for your time.
About the upgrades (please read my response to ghostclaw), i think that ghost claw mentioned the same thing- so i am going to ask you the same question: Do you have any ideas? lol
@Reason
I was watching your replays, and i have a little tip for you about the game you lost. Place your overlords over your hydra ball!! I think that i have mentioned this before- but this build stops DT play cold. If you would have done that- i think the game would have gone differently.
Also thanks for all of your replays, do you mind if i update the OP with them?
Once again- thanks everyone for your time and responses. I am exited to hear your thoughts.
If you have any replays please post them!!! I am trying to watch every one!
**********edit**********
I didn't get to everyone so i will finish~
@Monkeyz_Rule
You clearly did not understand the BO at all. This is probably my fault (poorly written)- but i would insist that you watch the replays. at no point do you just have your den sitting around. You are not understanding the concepts of this build at all. If you read the op, and im sorry that i cannot write very well- watch the replays instead. perhaps that will shed some light on this?
@T.O.P.
I guess that we will have to wait till friday. You playing standard protoss FE strats, and me with my strat. I really don't think that the economy is a big deal. the game on neo Medusa that i have up shows this. the p even takes his 3rd before moving out, and i still easily crush him.
@FaTe)SoL
But! your forgetting one important thing! zerg can make tons of peons at the same time, provided that you have the production. Zerg economy is not like P/T economy.
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You are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all?
1) Ad hominem
2) All of these are either completely false or out of context.
You delay the Protoss' push by a minute and have a shitty economy. I watched the Neo Medusa rep, the Protoss played pretty terrible. He didn't even split, his BO was bad, his macro was subpar, etc.
Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer.
9 pool hurts the Protoss' economy because the Protoss has to get cannons before Nexus and it delays Protoss' tech greatly. Your build does neither.
I don't see how mutalisks are relevant at all. A 3 hatch Mutalisk build does the same thing.
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On May 28 2009 10:09 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +You are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all? 1) Ad hominem 2) All of these are either completely false or out of context. You delay the Protoss' push by a minute and have a shitty economy. I watched the Neo Medusa rep, the Protoss played pretty terrible. He didn't even split, his BO was bad, his macro was subpar, etc. Show nested quote +Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer. 9 pool hurts the Protoss' economy because the Protoss has to get cannons before Nexus and it delays Protoss' tech greatly. Your build does neither. I don't see how mutalisks are relevant at all. A 3 hatch Mutalisk build does the same thing.
Ad hominem? hardly. I am not attacking your character at all. I was merely referring to a past argument. Disagreeing with a very good SC player, and then saying you only need to do 700mins worth of damage to make 2 hatch muta successful is foolish. I find your position on 2 hatch muta to be horrid. Thusly i am choosing to not care about your strategical input ITT. Good day sir.
About the neo medusa game- I have no idea if he was playing on someones alt, yet he was a high C player. 4500 at least. I have no idea what was the deal with that game. If we are looking at pure skill, than my game against another .get player (the sair reaver) should prove my point. in that game i do not damage his economy at all- and according to an observer (who has posted in this thread) this particular .get player was on a 4 game winning streak vs C/C- players.
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Just watched the replay- and all i have to say is wow. the zerg player was not following this build order at all. I don't think that you really played against the build icarus sorry  Although- if you want to game with me anytime, just PM me.
Thanks for your input.
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On May 28 2009 09:38 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about?
3 hydra without speed or range is shit. I could kill them with 1 cannon and maybe have to pull probes. Im B- protoss, and to me this build makes no sense.
1. if i see 2 lings i don't build cannons I'll just nexus first and my probe will never die.
2. If i see early hydra den at first i might think all in hydra but since my probe won't die I'll see no drones on gas and thus add no extra cannons.
3. With delayed 3rd hatch your going to have alot less larva and you'll just get run over.
4.The pros have already come up with some awesome builds, and IMO to get better at this game you must practice their builds and maybe add small things to modify it so it suits your style of play better. But an amateur build order isn't going to help out the zergs in the lower levels.
There were some well thought parts to this build but the main factor is that when the probe stays alive if you don't play normal you'll put yourself behind because toss can react to anything pretty easily.
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Ad hominem? hardly. I am not attacking your character at all. I was merely referring to a past argument. Disagreeing with a very good SC player, and then saying you only need to do 700mins worth of damage to make 2 hatch muta successful is foolish. I find your position on 2 hatch muta to be horrid. Thusly i am choosing to not care about your strategical input ITT. Good day sir.
I never disagreed with Cloud and I never said ANYTHING about only having to do any amount of damage with 2 hatch muta.
You are completely disregarding my arguments because of a misremembered past argument. Whatever, I guess.
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On May 28 2009 10:35 Probe. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 09:38 PH wrote:On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about? 3 hydra without speed or range is shit. I could kill them with 1 cannon and maybe have to pull probes. Im B- protoss, and to me this build makes no sense. 1. if i see 2 lings i don't build cannons I'll just nexus first and my probe will never die. 2. If i see early hydra den at first i might think all in hydra but since my probe won't die I'll see no drones on gas and thus add no extra cannons. 3. With delayed 3rd hatch your going to have alot less larva and you'll just get run over. 4.The pros have already come up with some awesome builds, and IMO to get better at this game you must practice their builds and maybe add small things to modify it so it suits your style of play better. But an amateur build order isn't going to help out the zergs in the lower levels. There were some well thought parts to this build but the main factor is that when the probe stays alive if you don't play normal you'll put yourself behind because toss can react to anything pretty easily.
And you clearly have not read the OP, watched any of the replays- or read the rest of the thread.
@ Reason
I just watched your 5th game- and YOU COULD HAVE ENDED IT!!!! Instead of draging that into late game- you had him. He was so greedy, but your hydra play wasn't the best lol. I thought that game was going to be quick. You had a massive advantage gahh. but you still came back in the end lol. 5 gas before protoss even moves out lol!
@purplecow
Ahh sure. Your 700 mineral comment- i was wrong. That was not you- just rose. My bad i am wrong. The muta mircro thing was Hapahauli. So on another account i was wrong. You also did not disagree with cloud directly and on that account i am wrong. So misrah is 0-3.
I am sorry and fully apologize. I just remember that thread because you had posted in it. It caused me so much nerd rage. That is why i called you out (incorrectly i might add)
But this still leaves your points. About macro and all of that. I FULLY REALIZE that my economy is not going to be great. It will be fine after the 8 min mark, once i can pop a round or two of drones. What you are not understand here- is the fact that i am also going to have muta in your base, right around the time protoss is going to want to move out. You are NOT going to be able to move out, because i am going to have muta all over you. i will snipe templar, and probes. In order to stop the muta harrass you need to make more sairs/chon/cannons. I have covered this all in my response to ultramagnetics. Please read that.
Once again cow- i do apologize for my incorrect accusations. You did nothing that i had implicated in that 2 hatch thread. I was wrong, and for that i am sorry.
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Just want to say that I have watched the replays and I have read through all three pages of this thread.
It seems to me that you're trying to make the claim for the "perfect build order" against protoss, or rather, a build order that's going to have the tactical advantage in any position after the initial hydra contain.
The build may seem sound on paper, but... you haven't played any good players yet. There are many things that can go wrong. For one, the Protoss's cannon placement I've seen were far from spectacular. Also, the protoss that you played that macroed up to three bases didn't have very good macro by any standards.
I appreciate the passion you have for your build, and no doubt it will help a lot of players here, but if you want to argue it into the higher echelons of play, prove yourself and your build by uploading better replays. You can argue with the guys on this forum all you want, but the only thing that will prove anything is a better-quality opponent.
EDIT: In regards to the "sneaky" muta-micro reference above, if you read all my posts, I posted twice in that thread, the second post clarifying my position on muta-micro and generally agreeing with cloud. If you ask people to read your threads, please, kindly read all posts before you accuse. That is all.
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On May 28 2009 10:52 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 10:35 Probe. wrote:On May 28 2009 09:38 PH wrote:On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about? 3 hydra without speed or range is shit. I could kill them with 1 cannon and maybe have to pull probes. Im B- protoss, and to me this build makes no sense. 1. if i see 2 lings i don't build cannons I'll just nexus first and my probe will never die. 2. If i see early hydra den at first i might think all in hydra but since my probe won't die I'll see no drones on gas and thus add no extra cannons. 3. With delayed 3rd hatch your going to have alot less larva and you'll just get run over. 4.The pros have already come up with some awesome builds, and IMO to get better at this game you must practice their builds and maybe add small things to modify it so it suits your style of play better. But an amateur build order isn't going to help out the zergs in the lower levels. There were some well thought parts to this build but the main factor is that when the probe stays alive if you don't play normal you'll put yourself behind because toss can react to anything pretty easily. And you clearly have not read the OP, watched any of the replays- or read the rest of the thread.
I did read the op and I'm telling you this build makes no sense. If you can't kill the scout probe and you use your build you're automatcially behind. I don't need to watch the replays of rookie players to know this build isn't good. This build also has no credibility. (Hasn't been proven to work and hasn't been tested vs any decent players. There are already some incredibly effective zerg builds so why would anyone switch to this. Do you honestly believe you came up with the best zerg build? A build to be used in place of other PROVEN builds?
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Misrah feel free to do with the replays as you please. Your build took me through most of C- rank and I'm C now, im going to play 100% ZvP with this build and see where it takes me.
I was thinking on Colo2 P can position cannons up cliff very easily so I think this build may be even more effective on other maps but I will stick with Colo2 as it is motw just now. If you want reps of some other maps then just say and I'll get some.
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On May 28 2009 12:01 Reason wrote:
Misrah feel free to do with the replays as you please. Your build took me through most of C- rank and I'm C now, im going to play 100% ZvP with this build and see where it takes me.
I was thinking on Colo2 P can position cannons up cliff very easily so I think this build may be even more effective on other maps but I will stick with Colo2 as it is motw just now. If you want reps of some other maps then just say and I'll get some.
Thanks for the reps. OP is updated.
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On May 28 2009 11:09 Probe. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 10:52 Misrah wrote:On May 28 2009 10:35 Probe. wrote:On May 28 2009 09:38 PH wrote:On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about? 3 hydra without speed or range is shit. I could kill them with 1 cannon and maybe have to pull probes. Im B- protoss, and to me this build makes no sense. 1. if i see 2 lings i don't build cannons I'll just nexus first and my probe will never die. 2. If i see early hydra den at first i might think all in hydra but since my probe won't die I'll see no drones on gas and thus add no extra cannons. 3. With delayed 3rd hatch your going to have alot less larva and you'll just get run over. 4.The pros have already come up with some awesome builds, and IMO to get better at this game you must practice their builds and maybe add small things to modify it so it suits your style of play better. But an amateur build order isn't going to help out the zergs in the lower levels. There were some well thought parts to this build but the main factor is that when the probe stays alive if you don't play normal you'll put yourself behind because toss can react to anything pretty easily. And you clearly have not read the OP, watched any of the replays- or read the rest of the thread. I did read the op and I'm telling you this build makes no sense. If you can't kill the scout probe and you use your build you're automatcially behind. I don't need to watch the replays of rookie players to know this build isn't good. This build also has no credibility. (Hasn't been proven to work and hasn't been tested vs any decent players. There are already some incredibly effective zerg builds so why would anyone switch to this. Do you honestly believe you came up with the best zerg build? A build to be used in place of other PROVEN builds?
No you didn't.
Quote from the op:
Hey TL. Once again it's your resident noob with another great idea ready for the wrath of the strat forum. Recently I have been having trouble with the zvp match up. I have read all of the great guides by superior wolf, w3jjjj, and all of the other great zergs that grace tl with their presence. While I will openly admit that reading this guide could be a waste of time, I decided to write it anyway, because I am having a large amount of success with it at the D-C/C+ level. I doubt that my limited understanding of SC is going to be able to help out your B and A players- but I know there are a lot of noobs (like myself) out there that might find this strat actually useful. So here goes-
So almighty B- player, if it isn't worth your time to watch replays from sub standard noobs like myself, why are you wasting your time in this thread?
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I watched the first three reps (I think) and I don't think it will work vs anyone who can react correctly. Keep the scouting probe alive as long as you can, and send a second and a third one even to correctly assess the hydra (and if you can, drone/hatch) count.
Most players you faced didn't bother to continue to scout, which is why they sacrificed their economy. Non-speed-up'd hydras will have trouble sniping probes if they roam looking for hydra count, and you can't really do much with them because toss will keep an eye out. By the time you have speed, toss will probably have sairs or reavers or hts ready.
Also, you say that your drone production outproduces his probes. How is this? I don't know the proper peon ratios but since you have 2 hatches and later 3, with 1 continuously pumping out hydras, isn't it pretty much equal if not disavantageous?
I'll write a more thorough post later.
One of the games the toss goes 13 nex forge gateway, and doesn't even maynard his probes. He doesn't know how to sair/reaver.
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So for this build you need to assume the following?
-Your Opponent can't read your base (drone count and drones on gas).
-Your Opponent can't macro properly.
-Your Opponent can't get higher than C on ICCUP.
-Your Opponent is not Korean (I'm sure of this any decent [[C- even]] Korean toss isn't going to lose to this build).
-Your Opponent didn't read this thread.
-Your Opponent is incapable of making cannons and gateways in a timely fashion.
-Your Opponent won't scout more than once, or even more than once successfully.
-Your Opponent can't adapt.
Oh there's gotta be more.
Build orders should have an even distribution of success. Typically the most successful builds are the ones that in any rank of play, users can use this to win. Your arguing that this build will only work up to the C+ level. Okay... but then maybe the success of this build isn't that you're getting those early hydra. What is the actual benefit to getting early hydra instead of just teching? He put up extra cannons? That's great, but if he knows you're going hydra most of the time the Toss would utilize the resources he would have otherwise set forth for, oh... cannons in the main to defend against muta. With your hydras out that early you can't possibly muster up the resources for 9 muta in a timely fashion. That means toss players can delay their defense internally and focus on gateways and stargates, if they choose. I would feel more comfortable if you tried this build on a Toss player that was at a high level of play. Get.Duduk is a decent player based upon his ICCUP stats, but that means little. His play in your game convinced me that if anything he's at a C- level in terms of his actual gameplay. Or maybe even have two really good players test this out.
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I know your build is not going to help me out or any high rank zerg. Im just trying to leave feedback of what i think. You need feedback from a variation of skilled or noobie players if you want to perfect this build. A player can build pretty much however they want vs someone who is not as good as them but it doesn't mean they're build is good. I saw some the replays and those guys were not your level. What I'm trying to get at is instead of arguing how good your build is why don't you take peoples feedback and try to perfect the build. Im telling you right now the build is too easy to scout and thus react to by decent players. I've seen your reps I'll watch reasons reps and see if they change my mind though.
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On May 28 2009 09:54 Misrah wrote:Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal.
Nice math. XD
Have you tried this at higher iCCup ranks? I'd presume that it's usefulness diminishes with proper troop count scouting
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2009 09:54 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 04:59 citi.zen wrote:On May 28 2009 04:21 Misrah wrote:
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two. on #1 - I only suggested doing it if you have a scouting advantage (OL sees P trying to cut corners and you kill his scouting probe). Otherwise you'd move towards #2. Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out? What puts you in a better position: the earlier timing push vs. 5 hatch hydra or the later push (assuming you forced 6-8 cannons and maybe delayed the +1) vs. your build? BTW, I am not trying to criticise the BO, I am genuinely interested in the answer and will try to test it out later tonight. If you are online maybe we can test it together... or maybe we can find a willing P :-) First off- it's fine if you criticize the BO. I love it when people critique me. The part that i don't like is when people come into the thread, don't read the OP, dont watch the replays, and don't read the thread- before posting. My patience wears thin when people that have not done any of those steps simply comes in and thinks they 'can prove you wrong.' 1. If you were suggesting that then you are correct. (i must have misunderstood your post. I apologize i was completely in the wrong there.) 2. You bring up some good points in comparing this build to 5 hatch. The end result is important. However this build, and 5 hatch attempt to get there in entirely different ways. 5 hatch hydra is a defensive macro type build. This build is a more aggressive build. If you are playing protoss, and you do not force the desired amount of cannons, or harass hard enough with your muta- of course you will lose. However if you do force the cannons, and can cause some harassment with the muta, will it be enough damage to set you up with an advantage? It's your call. I should start looking at this build compared to 5 hatch. It's going to take some time, but i think you are right. This should be looked at in depth. Because if this is inherently a weaker build, then it is pointless to play. @ GhostClaw-First of all- nice writeup. It seems that you really studied the reps, and actually read the op. I agree with most everything you placed in your post. 1. Upgrades. I do realize that this could be a problem. If you can snipe the forge with your early range hydras, that can help out- but starting upgrades around 8:00 min in the game is very late. The reason that i have chosen to do this is simply because i am saving for muta. It could be very very possible to spend your first 100 gas surplus on missile attack, instead of going lair (after range.) However if you were to go with this rout, i would think that muta would be out of the question. Do you have any thoughts? 2. This brings me to your second point- drops. Really this could be very workable. I have stated in the OP that in order to save your 2 overlords from being corsair sniped, you place them over your hydras and 'contain' the p. Now this serves many purposes. The first is stopping any DT play, the second is to give your muta a 'safe spot' from corsairs, and the third is to protect your overlords. Slow drops could be very possible in this situation because- you will have 2 protected overlords hovering above the P choke already. Going drops also plays well into getting your upgrades faster. Because you only need to waste gas on a lair and 200 gas on drop. Any time between then, you probably could get +1 cara and +1 missle for your hydra. (i have no idea about the timing, but a 1/1 hydra drop could potentially be deadly to a P with a low gate count. 3. I have no idea about the 2007 games. But i really should take a look at these. I had no idea that this might have been already tried. @ultramagneticsWhat do you want me to tell you? I have repeated again and again in this thread that this build does not attempt to damage protoss economy, until muta are up. the hydra are simply there to delay. Once the muta are off, probe sniping is very possible- and very likely. (Unless protoss is going with mass sair) Does this build give you a weaker economy than 3 hatch? yes. So does going 9 pool speed into 3 hatch, so does going 2 hatch, same as 12 pool, 9 hatch, overpool ext. Once again we have covered this. Show nested quote +1st point:
You are hurting your economy by making hydras over drones. You are hurting your economy by taking gas early and hydra den. You could be investing in hatcheries instead.... You are hurting your economy by pumping drones from 1 hatch and hydras from 2nd hatch, rather then pumping drones from 2 hatch followed by hydras from 2 hatch. Really? no way! So your telling me that if i don't build drones- then my economy is going to be weaker? This first point astounds me. We have already covered this, i realize this- and this has been covered. Show nested quote +2nd point:
Your pressure isn't significant enough to damage a smart protoss. Basically protoss will start with only 1 cannon since protoss will have his scouting probe alive forever vs your 2 zerglings. Once protoss sees the hydra den protoss will make a few more cannons and make sure to scout your hydra count. Ok a smart protoss will protect himself. Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal. then he will have to build more cannons to hold off my muta, so more wasted money. 2 cannons and 1/2 sairs are not enough to hold off 9 muta. I will be doing damage to your probe line. -if you build sairs, you are taking gas away from templar, and weakning your already pathetic ground army. -if you build chons- you are taking gas away from templar, and need to keep the chons inside of your base to defend against my muta -if you build templar: which really is the worst idea because a. your anti muta defense will be limited b. you are not going to be able to push out, because you will not have a big enough army to supplement your Templar, not to mention the fact that i still have muta flying around your base. So all the while this is happening, i will have 4 soon to be 5 hatch. I can make 1-3 rounds of drones depending on how far behind you are/ how much damage i am inflicting/ what tech route you decided to follow. Once again i will make 24 drones in the time you make 2. Allowing my 'devastated economy' to once again become on par with yours. Show nested quote +Sooooo, where does hurting protoss economy come into play?
You are first off not putting any early pressure on so protoss can go 14 nexus, or forge->nexus->1cannon. Both builds that are strong for protoss economy-wise.
Once protoss sees your hydra-den, protoss will have the strong economy I just mentioned, and can easily put down a few more cannons over the next minute while his tech is only slightly slower (and I would imagine responding properly to your build would give faster tech time then responding vs 9-pool pressure (which is actually good...)).
Either way your economy is much worse then if you waited for some sort of timing hydra push or just played standard zvp and you will not have hurt an intelligent protoss.. Sooooo, hurting the protoss econ comes into play with the muta. Even if my muta do little to no damage, i will still have the time i need to get another round of drones out. negating any 'economic advantage' you think you have. Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer. I am getting tired of repeating myself. My replays all go into the late game. One replay in particular is on neomedusa- and shows the protoss player getting his third up before pushing out. According to you- he should have easily beat me because his economy is 'so much better.' And by taking his third, he is compounding 'his advantage' even further. If you would actually take the time to watch the replays- you could see what happened in the end. @APurpleCowYou are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all? @ IcarusI would like to see that replay if you still have it. It sounds like a really good game, and i appreciate your input after playing against it. Thanks for your time. About the upgrades (please read my response to ghostclaw), i think that ghost claw mentioned the same thing- so i am going to ask you the same question: Do you have any ideas? lol @ReasonI was watching your replays, and i have a little tip for you about the game you lost. Place your overlords over your hydra ball!! I think that i have mentioned this before- but this build stops DT play cold. If you would have done that- i think the game would have gone differently. Also thanks for all of your replays, do you mind if i update the OP with them? Once again- thanks everyone for your time and responses. I am exited to hear your thoughts. If you have any replays please post them!!! I am trying to watch every one! **********edit**********I didn't get to everyone so i will finish~ @Monkeyz_RuleYou clearly did not understand the BO at all. This is probably my fault (poorly written)- but i would insist that you watch the replays. at no point do you just have your den sitting around. You are not understanding the concepts of this build at all. If you read the op, and im sorry that i cannot write very well- watch the replays instead. perhaps that will shed some light on this? @T.O.P.I guess that we will have to wait till friday. You playing standard protoss FE strats, and me with my strat. I really don't think that the economy is a big deal. the game on neo Medusa that i have up shows this. the p even takes his 3rd before moving out, and i still easily crush him. @FaTe)SoLBut! your forgetting one important thing! zerg can make tons of peons at the same time, provided that you have the production. Zerg economy is not like P/T economy.
I have watched some of the replays and it still makes no sense at all to me. I guess by saying your den is never sitting there you mean that for some reason you make 2 hydras right away before upgrading hydra range or speed. These hydras are completely useless but for some reason your opponents in the replays think that they suddenly need 4 cannons against 2 unupgraded hydras when they can't even kill 1. Even if you don't make these 2 hydras then the earliest you can start hydra range with your build order is about 4:00-410. Doing a normal BO against the comp reveals that you have 150 gas and your hydra den finishes at pretty much the exact same time; about 4 mins. However at this point your 3rd hatch has about 400 hp while with a normal BO the 3rd hatch is already done.
Now on an unrelated matter where do you keep getting the idea that the toss will make 8 cannons? As I just proved hydra range starts at the same time as with a normal 3 hatch before gas build and in a normal 3 hatch hydra build the attempted hydra break would come shortly after the corsair is already out in a "non-hungry" FE build. Meaning that on anything but a small map the P will have plenty of time to respond to any all-in kind of rush you are doing off 3 hatches and at which point in your replays your spire is only at about 200 hp. If you attempt to do any premature rush off 3 hatches then 3 cannons and 3 zealots should easily be enough until there corsair is out at which point the toss will be able to see everything you are doing and know that he only needs to add 1-2 more at most. Then he should have plenty of time to scout the spire and see mutas coming with a very comfortable amount of time to prepare accordingly. He could probably even get a DA for mael out with like 60 energy as your mutas pop but this is just a guess and most tosses probably wouldn't even consider this.
And on yet another note this particular build order IMO will never help you out at higher ranks, which you have states in the OP. However as most people don't seem to see this is pretty much an exact copy of a strategy, even if the build order is different, that I can recall seeing twice in somewhat recent progames. However in these two games the zerg did a normal BO and went lair before den because they wanted to kill the scouting probe. Of course this itself means its just a 3 hatch hydra kinda cheese that they wanted unscouted, however even with this large handicap of getting a useless lair and pretty much destroying there hydra timing they still had little trouble transitioning into a normal game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10750_Bisu_vs_Jaedong (no mutas though...)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11400_JangBi_vs_YellOw[ArnC]
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United States17042 Posts
1. Upgrades. I do realize that this could be a problem. If you can snipe the forge with your early range hydras, that can help out- but starting upgrades around 8:00 min in the game is very late. The reason that i have chosen to do this is simply because i am saving for muta. It could be very very possible to spend your first 100 gas surplus on missile attack, instead of going lair (after range.) However if you were to go with this rout, i would think that muta would be out of the question. Do you have any thoughts?
I think that it's all scouting dependent. One of your overlords can float over the P base for just about forever, as their mins should be heading to cannons and not stargate. Losing an overlord isn't the end of the world either, as long as you can plan for it. PvZ/ZvP is all about scouting, and since he's adding cannons their corsair "should" be later. If you see cannons going up in the mineral line, don't build muta (2 scourge for corsair instead of muta). You can see the forge spinning. I'm not sure I can see all of the variations that P can be going between upgrades and cannon count (in my head), so all i'm going to say is that you should adapt - Forge spinning = earlier grades for you, more cannons = less hydra more expanding, mass corsairs = corsair dt/corsair reaver, etc.
One other problem with this build is you're giving up air superiority if they choose to go corsair reaver or corsair dt (I can't remember if I mentioned this before). Bisu used to roll Z's with only corsair/dt, and that's why Z used to fight so hard for air superiority. Doesn't happen as much since Z started getting better at fending off the harass (jaedong using burrowed lings for sight helped).
2. This brings me to your second point- drops. Really this could be very workable. I have stated in the OP that in order to save your 2 overlords from being corsair sniped, you place them over your hydras and 'contain' the p. Now this serves many purposes. The first is stopping any DT play, the second is to give your muta a 'safe spot' from corsairs, and the third is to protect your overlords. Slow drops could be very possible in this situation because- you will have 2 protected overlords hovering above the P choke already.
Going drops also plays well into getting your upgrades faster. Because you only need to waste gas on a lair and 200 gas on drop. Any time between then, you probably could get +1 cara and +1 missle for your hydra. (i have no idea about the timing, but a 1/1 hydra drop could potentially be deadly to a P with a low gate count.
Depends on how many cannons + where cannons are + what map. I would say that if the P goes cannons, you should go slowdrop, as it allows you to end the game right there. It's a heck of a lot slower than muta, but it lets you get upgrades. Let me note that if your drop fails (no damage) you aren't going to be able to build up your drone count at all, because you have no threat, and P will roll you over. Kind of depends what kind of balance you want to have going into mid/late game, as you can choose muta (punish no cannons in main), drop (punish no defense in main), upgrades (head to lategame), drones (head to lategame), expand (head to lategame). I think that's in order from most aggressive to least aggressive in terms of timing, but i'm really not sure.
3. I have no idea about the 2007 games. But i really should take a look at these. I had no idea that this might have been already tried.
Lots of things were tried right after bisu won with his forge first builds. I don't remember if this in particular was ever tried on tv though.
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United States17042 Posts
On May 28 2009 13:19 FaTe)SoL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 09:54 Misrah wrote:Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal. Nice math. XD Have you tried this at higher iCCup ranks? I'd presume that it's usefulness diminishes with proper troop count scouting
Better troop scouting and more trust in their micro and macro. 5 cannons should be enough to defend against 3 hat hydra anyway, i'm not sure that they'll normally build 8.
One other thing that I would do if I was protoss would be to skip the stargate, build two cannons, and go straight to ht/archon. ht > hydra, corsair < hydra. Archon > muta, 1-2 corsairs < muta, ht help against muta.
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Chill in his instructional FFOVDs on youtube tends to go lurker ling instead of mass hydras, in what situations should you do one or the other
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 28 2009 15:12 linkmarth wrote:
Chill in his instructional FFOVDs on youtube tends to go lurker ling instead of mass hydras, in what situations should you do one or the other
No one goes lurker first anymore. The strategy that Chill used was quick +1 carapace, lurker, sunken, and spore. The problem with that build is that zerg does not have the unit combination necessary to stop protoss from getting a 3rd. Lurkers are no good against cannons. Pros never open lurker first.
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On May 28 2009 16:13 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 15:12 linkmarth wrote:
Chill in his instructional FFOVDs on youtube tends to go lurker ling instead of mass hydras, in what situations should you do one or the other No one goes lurker first anymore. The strategy that Chill used was quick +1 carapace, lurker, sunken, and spore. The problem with that build is that zerg does not have the unit combination necessary to stop protoss from getting a 3rd. Lurkers are no good against cannons. Pros never open lurker first.
ohhh i see thx
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On May 28 2009 16:27 linkmarth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 16:13 T.O.P. wrote:On May 28 2009 15:12 linkmarth wrote:
Chill in his instructional FFOVDs on youtube tends to go lurker ling instead of mass hydras, in what situations should you do one or the other No one goes lurker first anymore. The strategy that Chill used was quick +1 carapace, lurker, sunken, and spore. The problem with that build is that zerg does not have the unit combination necessary to stop protoss from getting a 3rd. Lurkers are no good against cannons. Pros never open lurker first. ohhh i see thx
In fact Chill adresses this problem by stressing that you MUST stop the expo before the cannons go down, therefore stopping the 3rd. Protoss is such an ezmode race that once they get those cannons and hts down you just cant get cost effective with killing the expos.
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i like that strategy. watched almost all the replays you posted here, and it worked pretty well in a variety of situations. i like the fact that the hydras are always ahead in carapace and attack upgrades. plus, im always fond of any build order that switches to mutalisks in some point. in many cases, in can catch the protoss off guard if you were not properly scouted, or it can come in handy against shuttles and stray high templars. well done! keep up the good work! 
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On May 28 2009 12:51 Wala.Revolution wrote:
I watched the first three reps (I think) and I don't think it will work vs anyone who can react correctly. Keep the scouting probe alive as long as you can, and send a second and a third one even to correctly assess the hydra (and if you can, drone/hatch) count.
Most players you faced didn't bother to continue to scout, which is why they sacrificed their economy. Non-speed-up'd hydras will have trouble sniping probes if they roam looking for hydra count, and you can't really do much with them because toss will keep an eye out. By the time you have speed, toss will probably have sairs or reavers or hts ready.
Also, you say that your drone production outproduces his probes. How is this? I don't know the proper peon ratios but since you have 2 hatches and later 3, with 1 continuously pumping out hydras, isn't it pretty much equal if not disavantageous?
I'll write a more thorough post later.
One of the games the toss goes 13 nex forge gateway, and doesn't even maynard his probes. He doesn't know how to sair/reaver.
Once i begin pumping hydras, i immediately begin sending them to your base. Your scouting probe is not going to stay alive forever, when there are two lings- and some hydra chasing it. After that probe is destroyed i rally all of my hydra to your choke. Now unless you want to have another probe sitting around the map (and thats fine) could i not assume that i could block my ramp with some of the hydra that will be constantly being pumped from my main- and then snipe your probe? Assuming that you have only placed one probe randomly hidden in the map- then all of your other probes are going to have to go through you choke. Which is currently being occupied by about 8 to a dozen hydra.
There is no way you could get a probe through that. So i ask you in all honesty: If you see massed hydra at your choke- are you really going to try and skimp out on cannons, when my OL is going to be able to see your entire choke?
yes two hatcheries produces drones faster than 2 nexus. Think about it. I can build more than one peon at a time at each hatchery. Taking into account that i have to sacrifice a few drones here and there, then yes it might be slightly disadvantageous. While you can only build one at a time. the thing is, as soon as my lair goes up, i can afford another hatch (placing me at 4) giving me the ability to pump drones off of 3 hatch. 3 hatch drone pump > 2 nexus probe.
On May 28 2009 12:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:
So for this build you need to assume the following?
-Your Opponent can't read your base (drone count and drones on gas).
-Your Opponent can't macro properly.
-Your Opponent can't get higher than C on ICCUP.
-Your Opponent is not Korean (I'm sure of this any decent [[C- even]] Korean toss isn't going to lose to this build).
-Your Opponent didn't read this thread.
-Your Opponent is incapable of making cannons and gateways in a timely fashion.
-Your Opponent won't scout more than once, or even more than once successfully.
-Your Opponent can't adapt.
Oh there's gotta be more.
Build orders should have an even distribution of success. Typically the most successful builds are the ones that in any rank of play, users can use this to win. Your arguing that this build will only work up to the C+ level. Okay... but then maybe the success of this build isn't that you're getting those early hydra. What is the actual benefit to getting early hydra instead of just teching? He put up extra cannons? That's great, but if he knows you're going hydra most of the time the Toss would utilize the resources he would have otherwise set forth for, oh... cannons in the main to defend against muta. With your hydras out that early you can't possibly muster up the resources for 9 muta in a timely fashion. That means toss players can delay their defense internally and focus on gateways and stargates, if they choose. I would feel more comfortable if you tried this build on a Toss player that was at a high level of play. Get.Duduk is a decent player based upon his ICCUP stats, but that means little. His play in your game convinced me that if anything he's at a C- level in terms of his actual gameplay. Or maybe even have two really good players test this out.
-There is no way, once your first probe is dead that you are going to be able to sneak another probe into my base. You assume too much. hydra are constantly being produced from my main. I can have the ramp blocked with lings, and then what? What is your probe going to tell you? You can see my nat. Woo hoo.
- If you have B or A players on your friends list, i would like to play them. I can't spend all of my time grinding on icup. Sorry that i am not that good, and don't have replays of this caliber. However many people reading this thread may be that level. As i have said in the OP- please try a few games and post them.
-Two of the opponents i have played were higher than C according to icup. However i guess they don't play 'good enough' to be C so really i can't tell anymore than that. Reason has just started playing this build, as of yesterday he went 5-1 in zvp's jumping from C- to C. I think that this shows that the build has potential, but once again these C players probably suck- so what do i know.
-My opponent isn't Korean? wtf? that has nothing to do with anything.
-About reading this thread, i could care less. If this is a strong build, and as versatile as i have designed it to be- then i want them to read this thread, so this build can be validated.
-If you are using this logic, then why did the fantasy build do so well? Surely a 'good' zerg that can build sunkens and get muta in a timely fashion would not be troubled by it? Pertaining to this build- that is what i am trying to find out. It is forcing the protoss player to play outside of their comfort zone.
- I doubt that you would be able to successfully scout my main more than twice during the game (until you get sair) Twice is generous, because i can have lings blocking my ramp.
As for my muta popping. Normally i can get 9 muta out at 7:40/7:45. Because of the protoss delays, your sair has just traveled over my base (seeing all of my production) and then probably has flown over the nat. With the delays that the protoss is facing, the muta come out at a great time from my experience. But of course i suck, and so do all of my opponents so this is probably relative.
I want really good players to test this build. I am not a really good player. However most of the good players that are reading this thread are too busy telling me how much i fail, instead of just trying the build for a game or two. I come to TL with these strats to try and have many people play a game or two- give me feed back, and then i can go back to work. ( i am just trying to collect games. not to argue my build.) I have stated this in the OP for every one of my replays. yet no one seems to want to just play 1 or 2 games it allows me to 'mass game' very efficiently.
What usually ends up happening though is people just come in, barely read the op and thread- skim the replays and proceed to tell me that i am a noob. And that this strat is terrible, and is played against terrible opponents. That doesn't help me at all. I need data. I need replays. that is what i want. Is that too much to ask? If you are wondering why i am getting frustrated, it's because no one other than reason and Icarus has even attempted that. Everyone else is just arguing and talking and theorizing, and going with the typical "a good opponent would." Approach. Of course watching a replay is very different than playing the game. 20/20 hindsight.
On May 28 2009 13:13 Probe. wrote:
I know your build is not going to help me out or any high rank zerg. Im just trying to leave feedback of what i think. You need feedback from a variation of skilled or noobie players if you want to perfect this build. A player can build pretty much however they want vs someone who is not as good as them but it doesn't mean they're build is good. I saw some the replays and those guys were not your level. What I'm trying to get at is instead of arguing how good your build is why don't you take peoples feedback and try to perfect the build. Im telling you right now the build is too easy to scout and thus react to by decent players. I've seen your reps I'll watch reasons reps and see if they change my mind though.
Your right. feed back is good- replays are better. You think that i am trying to prove everyone wrong? that i think my build is perfect? no on both accounts. If you come up with some theory craft about what will work or what will not work (with out playing against or playing the build) i am going to do the same. as i have said earlier in this post, the only thing that i really want is replays. I realize that it's asking a lot for a noob like me to ask a B player like you to try this, it's probably a waste of your time. But at the same time isn't theorycrafting doing the exact same thing, with much less useful results? I am not going to take your feed back, because not only is it non constructive, but you also have no experience playing even one game! currently the only people that know how this build plays, is me and reason. reason because he is currently on a zvp c- to c streak. He actually tried the build, and imo is finding some success.
I realize that your opinion in sc is better than mine, i realize that you have more experience, but surely you cannot deny that playing the build only once or twice would help both of us more than simply telling me that it fails.
Ghost claw i will get to your posts later. It seems that i need to try out those different variations based on what i see.
Sorry but my class is starting so i have to go~
I will finish responding to yours, and everyone else post at a later time. Class is starting.
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On May 28 2009 22:53 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 12:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:
So for this build you need to assume the following?
-Your Opponent can't read your base (drone count and drones on gas).
-Your Opponent can't macro properly.
-Your Opponent can't get higher than C on ICCUP.
-Your Opponent is not Korean (I'm sure of this any decent [[C- even]] Korean toss isn't going to lose to this build).
-Your Opponent didn't read this thread.
-Your Opponent is incapable of making cannons and gateways in a timely fashion.
-Your Opponent won't scout more than once, or even more than once successfully.
-Your Opponent can't adapt.
Oh there's gotta be more.
Build orders should have an even distribution of success. Typically the most successful builds are the ones that in any rank of play, users can use this to win. Your arguing that this build will only work up to the C+ level. Okay... but then maybe the success of this build isn't that you're getting those early hydra. What is the actual benefit to getting early hydra instead of just teching? He put up extra cannons? That's great, but if he knows you're going hydra most of the time the Toss would utilize the resources he would have otherwise set forth for, oh... cannons in the main to defend against muta. With your hydras out that early you can't possibly muster up the resources for 9 muta in a timely fashion. That means toss players can delay their defense internally and focus on gateways and stargates, if they choose. I would feel more comfortable if you tried this build on a Toss player that was at a high level of play. Get.Duduk is a decent player based upon his ICCUP stats, but that means little. His play in your game convinced me that if anything he's at a C- level in terms of his actual gameplay. Or maybe even have two really good players test this out. -There is no way, once your first probe is dead that you are going to be able to sneak another probe into my base. You assume too much. hydra are constantly being produced from my main. I can have the ramp blocked with lings, and then what? What is your probe going to tell you? You can see my nat. Woo hoo. - If you have B or A players on your friends list, i would like to play them. I can't spend all of my time grinding on icup. Sorry that i am not that good, and don't have replays of this caliber. However many people reading this thread may be that level. As i have said in the OP- please try a few games and post them. -Two of the opponents i have played were higher than C according to icup. However i guess they don't play 'good enough' to be C so really i can't tell anymore than that. Reason has just started playing this build, as of yesterday he went 5-1 in zvp's jumping from C- to C. I think that this shows that the build has potential, but once again these C players probably suck- so what do i know. -My opponent isn't Korean? wtf? that has nothing to do with anything. -About reading this thread, i could care less. If this is a strong build, and as versatile as i have designed it to be- then i want them to read this thread, so this build can be validated. -If you are using this logic, then why did the fantasy build do so well? Surely a 'good' zerg that can build sunkens and get muta in a timely fashion would not be troubled by it? Pertaining to this build- that is what i am trying to find out. It is forcing the protoss player to play outside of their comfort zone. - I doubt that you would be able to successfully scout my main more than twice during the game (until you get sair) Twice is generous, because i can have lings blocking my ramp. As for my muta popping. Normally i can get 9 muta out at 7:40/7:45. Because of the protoss delays, your sair has just traveled over my base (seeing all of my production) and then probably has flown over the nat. With the delays that the protoss is facing, the muta come out at a great time from my experience. But of course i suck, and so do all of my opponents so this is probably relative. I want really good players to test this build. I am not a really good player. However most of the good players that are reading this thread are too busy telling me how much i fail, instead of just trying the build for a game or two. I come to TL with these strats to try and have many people play a game or two- give me feed back, and then i can go back to work. ( i am just trying to collect games. not to argue my build.) I have stated this in the OP for every one of my replays. yet no one seems to want to just play 1 or 2 games it allows me to 'mass game' very efficiently. What usually ends up happening though is people just come in, barely read the op and thread- skim the replays and proceed to tell me that i am a noob. And that this strat is terrible, and is played against terrible opponents. That doesn't help me at all. I need data. I need replays. that is what i want. Is that too much to ask? If you are wondering why i am getting frustrated, it's because no one other than reason and Icarus has even attempted that. Everyone else is just arguing and talking and theorizing, and going with the typical "a good opponent would." Approach. Of course watching a replay is very different than playing the game. 20/20 hindsight.
I'll work down from your first bullet, though I will say I'm interested in trying this build out since you've been defending it so much. You're driving my curiosity wild
-Though it may be hard to scout your main after my initial probe dies, I can scout your nat and figure out if you're going to have an economy that can sustain a transition to Muta (as well as count how many hydra you may already have as well as any upgrades. Though you're still claiming that you will kill my probe within the first couple of minutes allowing you to place the hydra den down and tech without me knowing?
-I'm going to play a few games. My ZvP is mehhhhhh (well according to ICC its above 50% atm and I usually can average above 50% on ZvP) but if you're strat works then I should have no problem, right?
-One of your opponents (sorry duduk for outing you again), according to ICC only seems to play ZvP and PvZ. I could assume that he's only good at these two matchups, or maybe only really one. His information is a bit obscure and the game you played vs him... it looks like he tried to lose. I never said C players suck I'm only using what you said about this build working...
-Koreans play at a higher level than foreigners, cmon that's obvious.
-I don't actually know how versatile this build actually is. You claim it's great vs. a number of types of Toss play, but I haven't tried it myself. From reading this it doesn't seem overly versatile...
-It's not making a Protoss play outside of their comfort zone. Hydra play doesn't really phase me as a toss player, since everyone does it.
-First bullet answer revamp.
-almost 8 minutes for muta? Okay thats fine, but I would probably (if anything) just delay the stargate tech and focus on powering up my zealots/archons/HT. I'm sure there's a clever way of making sure that I have enough cannon support at my nat, and then by 7:30 I need to get 3 cannons at my main or just pressure to keep your muta away from my main. I'm just thinking hypothetically about what I could do to delay my stargate successfully. If I saw 2 hydra sitting outside my base early I wouldn't bother with the stargate initially, and I don't think you're realizing that. It's a poor adaptation to your build if I'm assuming you have a hydra den already and possibly teching lair, your lair tech will be late, and you're probably teching speed and range somewhere in the middle and if you're making hydra, I can assume when your spire is ready.
I'm not trying to discourage the build, I'm just pointing out immediate flaws I think that will make this build fail in the long-run, and you're just getting defensive about everything I say so that doesn't tell me you're taking mine or any other advice seriously.
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On May 29 2009 00:52 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 22:53 Misrah wrote:On May 28 2009 12:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:
So for this build you need to assume the following?
-Your Opponent can't read your base (drone count and drones on gas).
-Your Opponent can't macro properly.
-Your Opponent can't get higher than C on ICCUP.
-Your Opponent is not Korean (I'm sure of this any decent [[C- even]] Korean toss isn't going to lose to this build).
-Your Opponent didn't read this thread.
-Your Opponent is incapable of making cannons and gateways in a timely fashion.
-Your Opponent won't scout more than once, or even more than once successfully.
-Your Opponent can't adapt.
Oh there's gotta be more.
Build orders should have an even distribution of success. Typically the most successful builds are the ones that in any rank of play, users can use this to win. Your arguing that this build will only work up to the C+ level. Okay... but then maybe the success of this build isn't that you're getting those early hydra. What is the actual benefit to getting early hydra instead of just teching? He put up extra cannons? That's great, but if he knows you're going hydra most of the time the Toss would utilize the resources he would have otherwise set forth for, oh... cannons in the main to defend against muta. With your hydras out that early you can't possibly muster up the resources for 9 muta in a timely fashion. That means toss players can delay their defense internally and focus on gateways and stargates, if they choose. I would feel more comfortable if you tried this build on a Toss player that was at a high level of play. Get.Duduk is a decent player based upon his ICCUP stats, but that means little. His play in your game convinced me that if anything he's at a C- level in terms of his actual gameplay. Or maybe even have two really good players test this out. -There is no way, once your first probe is dead that you are going to be able to sneak another probe into my base. You assume too much. hydra are constantly being produced from my main. I can have the ramp blocked with lings, and then what? What is your probe going to tell you? You can see my nat. Woo hoo. - If you have B or A players on your friends list, i would like to play them. I can't spend all of my time grinding on icup. Sorry that i am not that good, and don't have replays of this caliber. However many people reading this thread may be that level. As i have said in the OP- please try a few games and post them. -Two of the opponents i have played were higher than C according to icup. However i guess they don't play 'good enough' to be C so really i can't tell anymore than that. Reason has just started playing this build, as of yesterday he went 5-1 in zvp's jumping from C- to C. I think that this shows that the build has potential, but once again these C players probably suck- so what do i know. -My opponent isn't Korean? wtf? that has nothing to do with anything. -About reading this thread, i could care less. If this is a strong build, and as versatile as i have designed it to be- then i want them to read this thread, so this build can be validated. -If you are using this logic, then why did the fantasy build do so well? Surely a 'good' zerg that can build sunkens and get muta in a timely fashion would not be troubled by it? Pertaining to this build- that is what i am trying to find out. It is forcing the protoss player to play outside of their comfort zone. - I doubt that you would be able to successfully scout my main more than twice during the game (until you get sair) Twice is generous, because i can have lings blocking my ramp. As for my muta popping. Normally i can get 9 muta out at 7:40/7:45. Because of the protoss delays, your sair has just traveled over my base (seeing all of my production) and then probably has flown over the nat. With the delays that the protoss is facing, the muta come out at a great time from my experience. But of course i suck, and so do all of my opponents so this is probably relative. I want really good players to test this build. I am not a really good player. However most of the good players that are reading this thread are too busy telling me how much i fail, instead of just trying the build for a game or two. I come to TL with these strats to try and have many people play a game or two- give me feed back, and then i can go back to work. ( i am just trying to collect games. not to argue my build.) I have stated this in the OP for every one of my replays. yet no one seems to want to just play 1 or 2 games it allows me to 'mass game' very efficiently. What usually ends up happening though is people just come in, barely read the op and thread- skim the replays and proceed to tell me that i am a noob. And that this strat is terrible, and is played against terrible opponents. That doesn't help me at all. I need data. I need replays. that is what i want. Is that too much to ask? If you are wondering why i am getting frustrated, it's because no one other than reason and Icarus has even attempted that. Everyone else is just arguing and talking and theorizing, and going with the typical "a good opponent would." Approach. Of course watching a replay is very different than playing the game. 20/20 hindsight. I'll work down from your first bullet, though I will say I'm interested in trying this build out since you've been defending it so much. You're driving my curiosity wild -Though it may be hard to scout your main after my initial probe dies, I can scout your nat and figure out if you're going to have an economy that can sustain a transition to Muta (as well as count how many hydra you may already have as well as any upgrades. Though you're still claiming that you will kill my probe within the first couple of minutes allowing you to place the hydra den down and tech without me knowing? -I'm going to play a few games. My ZvP is mehhhhhh (well according to ICC its above 50% atm and I usually can average above 50% on ZvP) but if you're strat works then I should have no problem, right? -One of your opponents (sorry duduk for outing you again), according to ICC only seems to play ZvP and PvZ. I could assume that he's only good at these two matchups, or maybe only really one. His information is a bit obscure and the game you played vs him... it looks like he tried to lose. I never said C players suck I'm only using what you said about this build working... -Koreans play at a higher level than foreigners, cmon that's obvious. -I don't actually know how versatile this build actually is. You claim it's great vs. a number of types of Toss play, but I haven't tried it myself. From reading this it doesn't seem overly versatile... -It's not making a Protoss play outside of their comfort zone. Hydra play doesn't really phase me as a toss player, since everyone does it. -First bullet answer revamp. -almost 8 minutes for muta? Okay thats fine, but I would probably (if anything) just delay the stargate tech and focus on powering up my zealots/archons/HT. I'm sure there's a clever way of making sure that I have enough cannon support at my nat, and then by 7:30 I need to get 3 cannons at my main or just pressure to keep your muta away from my main. I'm just thinking hypothetically about what I could do to delay my stargate successfully. If I saw 2 hydra sitting outside my base early I wouldn't bother with the stargate initially, and I don't think you're realizing that. It's a poor adaptation to your build if I'm assuming you have a hydra den already and possibly teching lair, your lair tech will be late, and you're probably teching speed and range somewhere in the middle and if you're making hydra, I can assume when your spire is ready. I'm not trying to discourage the build, I'm just pointing out immediate flaws I think that will make this build fail in the long-run, and you're just getting defensive about everything I say so that doesn't tell me you're taking mine or any other advice seriously.
I will fully address your post in a bit- but i have to say that this is the first real constructive post you have given me so far. I appreciate it, and will take it into consideration- along with what ghost claw is talking about and reasons experience playing the build.
I can just simply say that your probe will see the den, my 3 drones mining, and will see the first one or two hydra. After that- i have never had a protoss keep the probe alive any longer.
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United States17042 Posts
er, can you use my name as 1 word Misrah (ghostclaw, and not ghost claw)? it's easier for me to ctrl-f (find) along the page >.>
Hope that's okay...
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The problem is that anything from D to C+ rank can work. The true verifier of the build is its succes vs B- ++ ranks .
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On May 29 2009 03:59 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
The problem is that anything from D to C+ rank can work. The true verifier of the build is its succes vs B- ++ ranks .
When newbs come asking for help you don't tell them : anything can work at your rank.
You take into account the fact that they are playing against people of the same level, and give them good strategies.
"Anything" will work if you are much, much better than your opponent. Z is my offrace and though I don't think I did too badly my play is honestly pretty terrible, so if I'm winning a large percentage of games that at least counts for something. I plan on getting as high rank with this build as possible but it would be nice if some better zergs could try this build out...
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On May 28 2009 14:13 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2009 13:19 FaTe)SoL wrote:On May 28 2009 09:54 Misrah wrote:Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal. Nice math. XD Have you tried this at higher iCCup ranks? I'd presume that it's usefulness diminishes with proper troop count scouting Better troop scouting and more trust in their micro and macro. 5 cannons should be enough to defend against 3 hat hydra anyway, i'm not sure that they'll normally build 8. One other thing that I would do if I was protoss would be to skip the stargate, build two cannons, and go straight to ht/archon. ht > hydra, corsair < hydra. Archon > muta, 1-2 corsairs < muta, ht help against muta.
You need more than five cannons to stop a TWO hat hydra all-in unless you're VERY confident with your probe micro and want to push it veeery close.
A three hat bust will need the eight even with the larger number of zealots and probes you'll have at your disposal.
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@ PH: you're right, except he is only building hydras from 1 hatch:
If you notice, with 17 drones and 3 mining on gas- if I really wanted to I could go all in, and have each of my three hatcheries begin pumping hydra. Or if I wanted to try and crack his nat- badly cripple P, I could just as easily go for 2 hatch hydra and then save my third for more drone production. All of these plays right at the early game are available at your disposal. For the sake of simplicity, I will continue this build order based on the macro approach to this build. ie. 1 hatch hydra pump only.
I keep going back to the same thing: you have to either go 2-3 hatch hydra break or 3 hat muta/5hat hydra early econ build. The tweener fails at everything: not enough pressure + behind in econ. The P will not be slowed.
I tried this BO last night and lost badly. Can't blame it on build (with which I am obviosly not even very familiar), he was much better than me. However, I do think I would have done far better with a standard build. I suggest you also try it vs someone better than you, and see if you are getting "closer" to wining or not!
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some people never learn...
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On May 27 2009 14:33 Misrah wrote:
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
Sorry I don't normally answer these posts, as I'm a C- protoss and won't have much to contribute. I will refute this point however. I'm not sure if this is covered in the forums, but my own experiments reveal the following:
Protoss nexus produces slightly faster than Zerg hatchery
Assuming excess minerals and supply, one nexus will produce 50 probes in the same time it takes one hatchery to produce 42 drones. A different experiment reveals the reason why:
probe production time: 12 seconds
larva spawn time: 14 seconds
Protoss base economy is faster than Zerg
Hatcheries are responsible for producing overlords, drones for buildings, drones for defense. Nexus is responsible for just probes.
The Zerg counter these advantages in two ways: first, they are able to produce extra drones instead of men; second, they can and must expand more often than protoss in ZvP. You're sacrificing these in favor of hydralisks, so you will be behind, just not as much as an all-in.
Canons do not significantly delay Protoss push
Your build is basically applying pressure against a Protoss to force more cannons, similar to how Protoss or Terran would force sunkens. However, Protoss economy is not hurt by making cannons. Every cannon he throws down is simply a delayed zealot (and a half). Every sunken a Zerg throws down is one less drone and minerals. When the Protoss push comes, it would be even more gas heavy than usual, which your standing army of hydra/muta will not fare well against.
Now this build does have its advantages, but remember it has strong disadvantages as well. It's certainly not something I'd use every game.
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Protoss base economy is actually pretty even against zerg. Zerg do have a fixed amount of larvae that they have to balance between drones and units, but once their economy is rolling after an almost pure drone pump in the early game, zerg econ is as powerful as a protoss econ and now zerg can devote those extra larvae to purely units giving them a stronger military production. Since the zerg only has a certain amount of larvae, they don't need as many drones I believe as protoss does probes.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Ok, the first few pages, the millions of quotes on quotes is pissing me off.. stop that..
Nice write up despite all the quotes on the other pages, which you can't control lol.... :O
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United States17042 Posts
On May 29 2009 06:41 Racenilatr wrote:
Protoss base economy is actually pretty even against zerg. Zerg do have a fixed amount of larvae that they have to balance between drones and units, but once their economy is rolling after an almost pure drone pump in the early game, zerg econ is as powerful as a protoss econ and now zerg can devote those extra larvae to purely units giving them a stronger military production. Since the zerg only has a certain amount of larvae, they don't need as many drones I believe as protoss does probes.
There's really too many variables to attempt to do this kind of analysis. Zerg units arn't protoss units, and their effectiveness can't really be measured in the same way.
For example, let's go ahead and assume (for the sake of argument) that zerg economy is half that of the protoss economy when we're talking purely about minerals in. That's okay, if the zerg units are twice as cost effective (critical mass of hydra against slow zeals, or lurker against anything w/out obs). Imo, there's too many variables to do any sort of analysis that says "42 drones < > = 50 probes" (at that point, mineral patches matter more anyway obv). Hat count matters more, and obviously unit counters/unit cost effectiveness matters more than anything else.
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Ok, reading the back and forth as it is now, I think I'm missing the point of this build...
I thought the idea was to put false pressure on the zerg by allowing him to scout the early den and hydras...you're forcing him to put down a number of cannons as you've put him under the impression you're doing some kind of a two or three hat bust, but once the probe is taken out (by the hydras, I would assume), you begin pumping drones again?
As long as you can deny scouting and you continue to show the hydras you built in front of his base, forcing him to add 6-8 cannons will be quite a blow...one that may be enough offset the cost of the early den, hydras and upgrades...?
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United States17042 Posts
On May 29 2009 12:46 PH wrote:
Ok, reading the back and forth as it is now, I think I'm missing the point of this build...
I thought the idea was to put false pressure on the zerg by allowing him to scout the early den and hydras...you're forcing him to put down a number of cannons as you've put him under the impression you're doing some kind of a two or three hat bust, but once the probe is taken out (by the hydras, I would assume), you begin pumping drones again?
As long as you can deny scouting and you continue to show the hydras you built in front of his base, forcing him to add 6-8 cannons will be quite a blow...one that may be enough offset the cost of the early den, hydras and upgrades...?
That's pretty much how I'm reading it. It's a middle ground between a real 2-3 hat hydra break and the standard macro 5 hat hydra. It forces P to adapt correctly, and makes the game nonstandard. You don't need to invest in upgrades if you see P throw down 8ish cannons at the sight of the hydra den - the den has done it's job, and the P saw the hydra. Similarly, the point of the muta in the op is to force cannons at the main+nat mineral lines. Z needs to adapt as well, but as Z plays more games, it should tend to favor the Z climbing the ladder.
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I'll work down from your first bullet, though I will say I'm interested in trying this build out since you've been defending it so much. You're driving my curiosity wild
-Though it may be hard to scout your main after my initial probe dies, I can scout your nat and figure out if you're going to have an economy that can sustain a transition to Muta (as well as count how many hydra you may already have as well as any upgrades. Though you're still claiming that you will kill my probe within the first couple of minutes allowing you to place the hydra den down and tech without me knowing?
-I'm going to play a few games. My ZvP is mehhhhhh (well according to ICC its above 50% atm and I usually can average above 50% on ZvP) but if you're strat works then I should have no problem, right?
-One of your opponents (sorry duduk for outing you again), according to ICC only seems to play ZvP and PvZ. I could assume that he's only good at these two matchups, or maybe only really one. His information is a bit obscure and the game you played vs him... it looks like he tried to lose. I never said C players suck I'm only using what you said about this build working...
-Koreans play at a higher level than foreigners, cmon that's obvious.
-I don't actually know how versatile this build actually is. You claim it's great vs. a number of types of Toss play, but I haven't tried it myself. From reading this it doesn't seem overly versatile...
-It's not making a Protoss play outside of their comfort zone. Hydra play doesn't really phase me as a toss player, since everyone does it.
-First bullet answer revamp.
-almost 8 minutes for muta? Okay thats fine, but I would probably (if anything) just delay the stargate tech and focus on powering up my zealots/archons/HT. I'm sure there's a clever way of making sure that I have enough cannon support at my nat, and then by 7:30 I need to get 3 cannons at my main or just pressure to keep your muta away from my main. I'm just thinking hypothetically about what I could do to delay my stargate successfully. If I saw 2 hydra sitting outside my base early I wouldn't bother with the stargate initially, and I don't think you're realizing that. It's a poor adaptation to your build if I'm assuming you have a hydra den already and possibly teching lair, your lair tech will be late, and you're probably teching speed and range somewhere in the middle and if you're making hydra, I can assume when your spire is ready.
I'm not trying to discourage the build, I'm just pointing out immediate flaws I think that will make this build fail in the long-run, and you're just getting defensive about everything I say so that doesn't tell me you're taking mine or any other advice seriously.
Ok giving your post the time it deserves:
1. Your probe will see my den place, and pop- along with my drones returning to the gas after the den is up. Your probe will also see about 2 hydra being produced before it is killed. Assuming that you have another probe just lying around the map- there will be no other way to reliably scout me untill your sair is up. I state this because, the only thing that you will be able to see is my nat. In the nat you will find 2 hatch, and a later gas going up. that is it. If you do not send a 2nd probe from your base immediately and hid it somewhere, i am going to have an ever growing group of hydra at your choke. Those hydra will stop any probes from even leaving your base.
2. I wouldn't think so. reason does not play Z main either, and it is his off race. Good luck- and post the reps if you please!
3. I had no idea that duduck was really that bad of a player. I just simply took his Icup rank, and thought to myself hmm- he is a higher rank. Better post this rep up. I am sorry, and i will try and find better opponents in the future.
4. so what.
5. My replays (which i realise do not hold any weight) show the build in many different situations. reasons replays are all of the same. The protoss is doing many different FE builds, and so far (even though reason has limited experience with this build) has adapted to them quite adequately. (but once again his replays don't hold any weight so i don't know how i can prove that to you currently)
6. If you are opting out of a stargate- that is fine. However then you will have been playing blind for quite a long period of time. GhostClaw was giving me some really good ideas, involving slow drops- and counters for what i my find you teching too. Forgoing sairs i feel is dangerous. Chons or not, my muta are going to be keeping you in your base for a quite some time. 3 cannons does not scare 9 muta in the least. So i don't think that you would be able to push.
7. Once again, i realize that you are not here to discourage the build. However i do get frustrated when i simply want to have people play 1 or 2 games give a simple summery of the game and then let me look at all the replays. Instead, i have to baby sit this thread- and argue point after point after point, when i would much rather be constructively looking at replays, and discussing in game problems. I am not trying in any way to say the build is perfect. I just get rage when people walk in, spend 5 min of their day to counter my build on paper- and telling me it will never work, with out ever playing a game.
@ ghostclaw- sorry about that. I will one word in the future, my bad.
On to your post
- as far as your idea about the variations with this build, i feel that i should explore that way more. Because right now the only thing i currently finding myself doing in the mid game is going muta. I need to get more replays, and find some time in between this and class to get some play time in.
-about your sair dt comment, i don't think that giving up air superiority is a problem. the reason that i belive this- is becuase i will have a dozen or so hydra, with a lord floating over them right by the protoss choke. There is no way a DT is going to even leave the base. As far as corsair reaver goes- your muta make an excellent reaver killer. Coupled with some hydra around your expos and main, i don't think that i see much of a problem. I mean if you kill that first shuddle- then you are really really far ahead.
-I really don't feel like i can give you adeqate responses because frankly most of your ideas have never dawned on me. I really like the slow drop idea, or possibly you could even transition to lurkers. The hydra at the choke would make sure the P doesn't get the third up quick, and provided that you took expansions with your 5th and 6th hatch, you could be looking at 4 gas easy. That would definatly be enough to go with lurks, and just continue your contain. (provided you don't teck muta at all)
@ hunter3
On May 29 2009 06:37 hunter3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 14:33 Misrah wrote:
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
Sorry I don't normally answer these posts, as I'm a C- protoss and won't have much to contribute. I will refute this point however. I'm not sure if this is covered in the forums, but my own experiments reveal the following: Protoss nexus produces slightly faster than Zerg hatcheryAssuming excess minerals and supply, one nexus will produce 50 probes in the same time it takes one hatchery to produce 42 drones. A different experiment reveals the reason why: probe production time: 12 seconds larva spawn time: 14 seconds Protoss base economy is faster than ZergHatcheries are responsible for producing overlords, drones for buildings, drones for defense. Nexus is responsible for just probes. The Zerg counter these advantages in two ways: first, they are able to produce extra drones instead of men; second, they can and must expand more often than protoss in ZvP. You're sacrificing these in favor of hydralisks, so you will be behind, just not as much as an all-in. Canons do not significantly delay Protoss pushYour build is basically applying pressure against a Protoss to force more cannons, similar to how Protoss or Terran would force sunkens. However, Protoss economy is not hurt by making cannons. Every cannon he throws down is simply a delayed zealot (and a half). Every sunken a Zerg throws down is one less drone and minerals. When the Protoss push comes, it would be even more gas heavy than usual, which your standing army of hydra/muta will not fare well against. Now this build does have its advantages, but remember it has strong disadvantages as well. It's certainly not something I'd use every game.
I think that ghostclaw has already refuted your point, but frankly i don't really want to type out 4 more paragraphs answering your questions, because i have had the same argument with 3 other people. Go read the thread and see what i have to say. Or even better- watch the growing number of replays.
On May 29 2009 06:41 Racenilatr wrote:
Protoss base economy is actually pretty even against zerg. Zerg do have a fixed amount of larvae that they have to balance between drones and units, but once their economy is rolling after an almost pure drone pump in the early game, zerg econ is as powerful as a protoss econ and now zerg can devote those extra larvae to purely units giving them a stronger military production. Since the zerg only has a certain amount of larvae, they don't need as many drones I believe as protoss does probes.
The reason that zerg does not need as many drones as t/p is because they generally have more expos=more mineral mining zones= more efficient mining. Other than that, everything else pretty much right.
On May 29 2009 07:10 Clasic wrote:
Ok, the first few pages, the millions of quotes on quotes is pissing me off.. stop that..
Nice write up despite all the quotes on the other pages, which you can't control lol.... :O
sorry
On May 29 2009 12:46 PH wrote:
Ok, reading the back and forth as it is now, I think I'm missing the point of this build...
I thought the idea was to put false pressure on the zerg by allowing him to scout the early den and hydras...you're forcing him to put down a number of cannons as you've put him under the impression you're doing some kind of a two or three hat bust, but once the probe is taken out (by the hydras, I would assume), you begin pumping drones again?
As long as you can deny scouting and you continue to show the hydras you built in front of his base, forcing him to add 6-8 cannons will be quite a blow...one that may be enough offset the cost of the early den, hydras and upgrades...?
I realize that ghostclaw has already answered, but i just cannot resist placing my 2 cents in.
this is not correct. I will try and explain this as clearly as i can:
once your den pops, your main hatch is going to produce nothing but hydra till around 7:00 min the game. Until then, your natural hatch, and your 3rd hatch (which was laid before you den popped) is going to be constantly producing drones til muta arrive. Now once you start your lair you will also be able to place your 4th hatch. Once this pops, you will continue pumping drones from that hatch as well.
You will have about 18/19 drones before you even begin making hydra. I haven't worked out the numbers- but that is your starting point for drones.
So in short: when the den pops, you have 1 hatch hydra pump, 1 hatch drone pump.
Once your 3rd pops you have 1 hatch hydra pump, 2 hatch drone pump
Once your 4th pops you have 1 hatch hydra pump, 3 hatch drone pump
Once your muta are off- 4 hatch drone pump.
Does that clear things up?
Ok hope i answered everyone?
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United States17042 Posts
-about your sair dt comment, i don't think that giving up air superiority is a problem. the reason that i belive this- is becuase i will have a dozen or so hydra, with a lord floating over them right by the protoss choke. There is no way a DT is going to even leave the base. As far as corsair reaver goes- your muta make an excellent reaver killer. Coupled with some hydra around your expos and main, i don't think that i see much of a problem. I mean if you kill that first shuddle- then you are really really far ahead.
It's an adjustment (realize that we're now talking about random counters, which isn't really about your build). DT's aren't going to leave the base by foot, but what about by shuttle? what about 2 stargate corsair reaver and dweb? (andromada). What about +1 2 stargate corsairs? These builds arn't exactly standard, but I think that the p turtling should allow for greater tech. *sighs* this isn't really going to go anywhere though, because there are many many different "tech level 2" ways that both zerg and protoss can go from here.
-I really don't feel like i can give you adeqate responses because frankly most of your ideas have never dawned on me. I really like the slow drop idea, or possibly you could even transition to lurkers. The hydra at the choke would make sure the P doesn't get the third up quick, and provided that you took expansions with your 5th and 6th hatch, you could be looking at 4 gas easy. That would definatly be enough to go with lurks, and just continue your contain. (provided you don't teck muta at all)
I think the problem and the strength with this build is that P can choose to do one thing and run you over if you don't adapt correctly. Pick any specific midgame build, and P should be able to win with it because your larger drone count won't kick in "fast enough" (game dependent). On the flip side, if you can hard counter whatever they do, you basically autowin. You also force P to attempt to respond correctly.
Let's pick a random strong build that doesn't involve the forge (you should be able to snipe the forge to prevent any kind of +1 push. If you don't, you're going to be in a world of hurt. If you can prevent +1 though, life is really really good, because you can prevent a ground push).
2 stargate reaver. It's a basic basic build for harass, and is made to gain air control and then harass like sin with no ground army. It's not a bad choice if you already have 8ish cannons in front of your nat. Following your build in the op, 2 stargates directly counters 3 hat muta (3 corsairs when muta hit, and that's assuming that you have no hydra (iirc though, feel free to take issue with any of the assumed timings, as I haven't seen or done 2 stargate reaver harass in quite a while). If you're muta are even further delayed with the den and such, protoss may be at 5 corsairs, which is plenty to deal with the 9 muta. From there, life gets worse. life is better if you scout the 2 stargates, and don't switch to muta, but I think that you still won't be able to counter the corsair reaver....maybe? It comes down to micro, and it's standard corsair reaver vs 4-5 hat hydra, except you won't have the economy or upgrades...(although you have a shot at being even if you snipe the forge).
The centerpiece of your build is showing aggression. Everything else after that on both sides is an adaptation, so everything "could" work, and everything "may not" work.
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United States17042 Posts
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You must have proposed a good build if there is so much debate and theorycrafting going on over it. My criticisms in the beginning of the thread were only to help point out flaws--I really want to try this build when I try to offrace my zerg to D+.
Good luck with the critics. I'm protoss(D+ only though ^_^), but I definitely want to play against this build sometime and see what playing against it feels like.
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Really enjoyed this guide. I'm going to give this a try, thanks for your effort!
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I just had to reply after reading one thing in particular:
assuming both players are decent - a Protoss player that makes 10 cannons early in the game is GOING TO LOSE.
There is no "he'll recover his economy and catch up" - no. It's over.
1500 minerals is GG.Cannons suck vs Hydras because while 1 cannon > 2 hydras, 10 cannons > 20-30 hydras easily. It just doesn't stack up the way some of you are thinking.
You also have to take into account that with no speedzeals or DTs the Hydras give the Zerg map control -> he pumps drones later and mass expands. How can you possibly break out? You can't because you don't have enough gates or zealots to do anything.
I don't think I've ever seen a game where a Protoss player went 10 cannons vs Hydras and lived. Usually they use Zealots in combination so that if Hydras want to get in range of cannons they'd be popped by Zeals. Zealots having high HP aren't going to be sniped so easily, and once they get speed upgrade -> map control and now the Zerg is punished because those same zeals are going to tear hydras and lings and that nat apart.
You can't do that if you built 10 cannons.
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Just to clarify, because I have been making lot's of mistakes..
If I see mass zeals, I stop drones from all hatches and pump hydra constantly. Am I still teching to muta?
If he goes reaver sair, do I still make muta? Do I even make scourge? Or just go mass expo/hydra.
These two styles have been giving me some trouble because they have been less common and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do.
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United States17042 Posts
On May 29 2009 22:01 Reason wrote:
Just to clarify, because I have been making lot's of mistakes..
If I see mass zeals, I stop drones from all hatches and pump hydra constantly. Am I still teching to muta?
If he goes reaver sair, do I still make muta? Do I even make scourge? Or just go mass expo/hydra.
These two styles have been giving me some trouble because they have been less common and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do.
Depends how much time and what kind of mass zealot attack they're making. If it's pure zeal, and 0 archon/goon, and you have time, muta are better (especially if zeals have +1). no +1, then hydra is easier, and if you have no time, then hydra. You should never be forced to sunken with this build, as you can choose to give up econ for units at any point. You should also be far enough ahead because you're forcing cannons at the beginning. If they don't put up enough cannons, immediately switch to 2-3-4 hat hydra and break the P.
reaver/sair, I would advise against muta, yes on scourge (if you can keep their corsair count down). Think about hiding hydra using burrow in your mineral lines to snipe the reaver/ shuttle. The reason why I advise against muta is because 7 corsairs rip apart muta, and you already have hydra. In this particular situation, you may want to build 1 sunk/1 spore at every location to just prevent harass.
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The only problem that i see with this game, is that if the players were actually good- and that protoss player didn't suck- zerg would have lost. Zergs economy was good, but he just played soo greedy and risky in the early game. If that protoss would have scouted more than once- he could have seen his natural, and been able to understand exactly the zerg strategy. Also missing those expo's was un-acceptable.
Also lets not forget that building those cannons didn't set that protoss player very far behind at all. Probably only 1 min at the most. So really i just blame it on the inadequacy of the protoss player.
+ Show Spoiler +God that vid was AMAZING! I loved the entire game. Bisu had no clue what to do! That is exactly what i want to happen with my build. thanks for showing me that game ghostclaw- it was really great! The zerg player just goes about it with a very different build order
On May 29 2009 18:26 Ace wrote:
I just had to reply after reading one thing in particular:
assuming both players are decent - a Protoss player that makes 10 cannons early in the game is GOING TO LOSE.
There is no "he'll recover his economy and catch up" - no. It's over.
1500 minerals is GG.Cannons suck vs Hydras because while 1 cannon > 2 hydras, 10 cannons > 20-30 hydras easily. It just doesn't stack up the way some of you are thinking.
You also have to take into account that with no speedzeals or DTs the Hydras give the Zerg map control -> he pumps drones later and mass expands. How can you possibly break out? You can't because you don't have enough gates or zealots to do anything.
I don't think I've ever seen a game where a Protoss player went 10 cannons vs Hydras and lived. Usually they use Zealots in combination so that if Hydras want to get in range of cannons they'd be popped by Zeals. Zealots having high HP aren't going to be sniped so easily, and once they get speed upgrade -> map control and now the Zerg is punished because those same zeals are going to tear hydras and lings and that nat apart.
You can't do that if you built 10 cannons.
wait- so are you trying to tell me that building lots of cannons in the early game is actually bad for the protoss? I never thought of that. According to everyone one else- it will barely do anything. At MOST it would only slow them down 1 min.
On May 29 2009 22:01 Reason wrote:
Just to clarify, because I have been making lot's of mistakes..
If I see mass zeals, I stop drones from all hatches and pump hydra constantly. Am I still teching to muta?
If he goes reaver sair, do I still make muta? Do I even make scourge? Or just go mass expo/hydra.
These two styles have been giving me some trouble because they have been less common and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do.
mass zeals: Your choice. Either go all in hydra and try and break him, or try and get to muta quickly. However if you go with the muta- realize that protecting your hydra are going to be key. Don't let your hydra all die lol.
Reaver sair: I have gone muta. I realize that they will get shredded by the sairs. But i only bring them into play as soon as the shuddle puts the reavers down. as soon as that happens, i send in the muta and snipe the reavers and suddles. I always figured that if i can stop that first reaver shuddle- i have the game in the bag. (but i play bad people so take my advice with a grain of salt)
You could always skip the muta, and just make scourge. But i would still play muta because, you can slow them down more. Think about it this way- If you get the muta, protoss is not going to be able to move out with his sair reaver until he has much more sair. If he does move out- you can try and muta backstabbing, to lure the sairs away- and scourge the shuddle, delaying him further.
But Ghostclaws advice is also very very sound.
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@ Reason
Ohh man! I just watched those two games against korea. I have to say that in the last game you could have won the game ez pz. He only had 4 cannons, and no zeals. But you didn't push. (also next time- online attack once range is complete, and you could have killed the gate, and possibly the forge. You should have gone all in hydra- as soon as you saw him plant all of those gates. Secondly, because you didn't all in- and went for muta, you should pull your hydra back from his choke a sap and have them go to your expos and wait till muta. Your muta did the job perfectly, and made him put up even more cannons. But his zeals did to much damage to you in the end
With a cannon count tho- you forced 11 cannons. or 1650 mins lol
Just remember that with this build- you are going to need to do damage. If you don't do any (like in this case) you are going to be in a bad position. Other than those points great game, and thanks for sharing!
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United States17042 Posts
The only problem that i see with this game, is that if the players were actually good- and that protoss player didn't suck- zerg would have lost. Zergs economy was good, but he just played soo greedy and risky in the early game. If that protoss would have scouted more than once- he could have seen his natural, and been able to understand exactly the zerg strategy. Also missing those expo's was un-acceptable.
Also lets not forget that building those cannons didn't set that protoss player very far behind at all. Probably only 1 min at the most. So really i just blame it on the inadequacy of the protoss player.
I don't understand this and then the spoiler. I guess I'm just confused? (you knock against "the protoss player" except I think that the protoss player is bisu...?)
1500 at that point in the game is about 1 minute and 30 seconds to 2 minutes (depending on what part of the game we're talking about). If you want to look at minute by minute mineral intake, go ahead and watch the tsl vods with the min/gas counter in the bottom right. Every so often it shows the minerals and gas that were gathered in the past minute, so you can get some sort of reading.
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On May 30 2009 02:13 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +
The only problem that i see with this game, is that if the players were actually good- and that protoss player didn't suck- zerg would have lost. Zergs economy was good, but he just played soo greedy and risky in the early game. If that protoss would have scouted more than once- he could have seen his natural, and been able to understand exactly the zerg strategy. Also missing those expo's was un-acceptable.
Also lets not forget that building those cannons didn't set that protoss player very far behind at all. Probably only 1 min at the most. So really i just blame it on the inadequacy of the protoss player.
I don't understand this and then the spoiler. I guess I'm just confused? (you knock against "the protoss player" except I think that the protoss player is bisu...?) 1500 at that point in the game is about 1 minute and 30 seconds to 2 minutes (depending on what part of the game we're talking about). If you want to look at minute by minute mineral intake, go ahead and watch the tsl vods with the min/gas counter in the bottom right. Every so often it shows the minerals and gas that were gathered in the past minute, so you can get some sort of reading.
I was kidding! I would never mock bisu. He will always be better at SC than i ever hope to be lol
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@Misrah:
The Protoss does indeed need cannons but it's akin to a Zerg making too many sunkens vs a Terran just because they see marines and a few medics - if you overestimate you will die.
If you make too many cannons(like 10) vs 10 hydras and have no zealots you will be crushed. You'd be better off with 6 or 7 and a zeal or two and just dare the hydras to get in range and take a damage from the zealot and the cannon.
That replay of Bisu vs GoRush isn't really the exact same thing but if you notice how many cannons Bisu made look at how hard it was for him just to break out his damn base. By the time he even had a decent sized army with templars there were a shitload of hydras AND lurkers - enough to flank his army 3 ways.
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haha that bisu vs gorush game was rape. I guess it shared the idea of this strategy of forcing the protoss to overreact but it did so by only slightly sacrificing economy. The gas came after zerg's third hatch went down...zerg didn't have hydras till around 6:40.. I give up trying to talk sense into a brickwall. Obviously this is a strong versatile strategy that makes up for its early losses in economy later in the game.
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zerg didn't have Hydras till around 6:40...and what did Bisu have?
The strategy is far from unbeatable, but telling someone to make 10 cannons is a pretty bad move as it just does exactly what the Zerg would want you to do.
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