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**More replays: From Reason documenting his C- to C zvp run using this build solely.**
*Reasons edits thanks buddy  all of his edits in red*
*Edit-new replay*
Hey TL. Once again it's your resident noob with another great idea ready for the wrath of the strat forum. Recently I have been having trouble with the zvp match up. I have read all of the great guides by superior wolf, w3jjjj, and all of the other great zergs that grace tl with their presence. While I will openly admit that reading this guide could be a waste of time, I decided to write it anyway, because I am having a large amount of success with it at the D-C/C+ level. I doubt that my limited understanding of SC is going to be able to help out your B and A players- but I know there are a lot of noobs (like myself) out there that might find this strat actually useful. So here goes-
This guide is written for people that just don't like the current 5 hatch, into muta play or for that matter any counter for the current protoss FE. This build is very flexible, the build is created simply to make sure that the protoss player is going to play honest the entire game. If the protoss tries to skimp on cannons at any time, this build is easily going to facilitate a 4 hatch, or 3 hatch hydra all in. So lets start out with the early game.
Scouting the protoss is going to be key with this build. This build is meant to fight off protoss FE! I cannot stress this enough. If the protoss is going two or three gate, or has proxy gated you are simply at a build order loss. However for this to really have occurred- you would have to play like a complete idiot. If you scout that the protoss is going heavy gates, or proxy gates first, don't place your hydra den- and defend as you normally would. On the other hand, against 1 gate, or FE this build suits it's self perfectly to set up zerg in a strong offensive position in the early, and mid games. I would suggest scouting at 12 drones to find your opponent, because you can still have time to continue onto a normal build order. (a condensed version can be found at the bottom of this guide)
The early game build order:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
constant drone production
Once your extractor pops send 3 drones over
When your natural hatch pops- build an overlord with the first larvae (should be either 14/18 or 15/18)
once you mine 50 gas pull your drones off, and have one of your gas drones immediately start a hydra den.
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.
*It is important to remember that during the entire time you are continuously pumping drones from your nat and main hatch. After you build your 1 pair of lings. However be aware that once your hydra den pops your main hatch will be solely producing hydra.*
Now the protoss is going to have his scout inside of your base most likely at this time. Don't worry too much about what the probe sees. If anything, the information that the P player is going to be receiving is going to be exactly what you want him to think- you are going 2 hatch, or all in lings with speed, or some hydra break strat. This works perfectly towards what this build is trying to accomplish- placing pressure on P. If you simply look at the math, you quickly see that 1 cannon is 150min. That is the exact cost of a gateway. The more cannons that you can force P to build the better. Every cannon that P is building is potentially one less gateway. This build, while it can easily switch at anytime to become a hydra break all in- is not specifically designed to do so. Instead, this build simply tries to pressure the protoss all the way through out the early and mid game.
Back to the build order~
At this point you should have the following- 2 hatchery's (both of which should have been continuously pumping drones through out this time, a spawning pool, and a hydra den that is just about to pop.
Now I have found that because of your continuous drone production, it is quite easy to afford another hatchery. The timing can fluctuate a bit here and there, however your excess minerals should top right near your den completion. This is the time when you should place your third hatch. I like placing it at another expo, because with this early hydra build- you are going to have map control for quite awhile.
You are going to want to get ready for placing your 3rd. When your den is about 50% complete- send another drone out to an expansion. I don't have a specific time when your minerals will surplus at 300, however please realise that you should place your 3rd before building hydra.
Once your third hatch is down, and the den has popped- send your 3 drones back to gas.
Here is where you need to make a quick mental note: Your main hatch is only going to be producing hydra for quite some time. Leave overlord, and drones to your natural and your third hatch. No larve that comes from your main should be wasted on anything but hydra.
To recap:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
once gas pops, 3 drones on gas till 50 gas then take them off (send one to build den)
3rd hatch right before or on the den pop.
Once the den pops, 3 drones back on gas.
Now here are some numbers that are going to be useful to you. These are the LEAST amount of drones you need to facilitate constant hydra production off of x hatcheries. The reason this is so useful to you is because these numbers are going to easily tell you if you can all in 3 or 4 hatch hydra, if the protoss is trying to cut cannons, and not play honest.
You need at least 4 drones mining minerals and 1/1.5 mining gas to pump hydra off of one hatch.
You need at least 11 drones mining minerals and 2 mining gas to pump hydra off of two hatch.
You need at least 16 drones mining minerals and 3 mining gas to pump hydra off of three hatch.
So as you can see- because we have been pumping drones continuously our drone counts before our hydra production are going to be around 17/18 drones. Now with 3 on gas that leaves us with 14/15 respectively. Now considering that we are only pumping our hydra off of one hatch you can easily see that we have a bit of a surplus.
This surplus is going to be used to power our teck- and nothing more. If you remember, earlier in the guide I was talking about how versatile this build is. This surplus is the answer. If you notice, with 17 drones and 3 mining on gas- if I really wanted to I could go all in, and have each of my three hatcheries begin pumping hydra. Or if I wanted to try and crack his nat- badly cripple P, I could just as easily go for 2 hatch hydra and then save my third for more drone production. All of these plays right at the early game are available at your disposal. For the sake of simplicity, I will continue this build order based on the macro approach to this build. ie. 1 hatch hydra pump only. My surplus will be used in teck, and drone production.
I am just going to quickly go through the rest of the build order, and then once you understand this- I will try and walk you through how you can adapt to what you see by the protoss.
At 23/26 build an overlord from your natural expo (remember to leave your main for hydra production)
With your first 150 gas surplus upgrade hydra range (hotkey G)
When your 3rd hatch pops, begin building drones from that hatch as well.
With your next 100 gas surplus get your lair
At this point your mineral surplus should be hovering near 300 right around the time your lair is starting. With these minerals build your 4th hatch.
Start your 2nd gas at about 25% lair completion
Once your lair pops get your spire
(once again realize this is with constant drone and hydra production)
Once your spire is around 350hp complete make sure that you build 3 overlords
Once the lair is done, get your 9 muta. They should pop around 7:40/7:50 mark
The mid game:
After you get your muta out, your main goal should once again be to simply force P to make more cannons, or if they didn't scout your muta- you can probably end the game here. However for simplicities sake we will assume that the P has build cannons. If this is the case, play on the defensive side with your muta. If the P has a considerable amount of Sair's just play safe. The hydra that you have built earlier should be still sitting outside of the P choke. Use this as a safe point for your muta if the P is making many sairs. Now at this piont the P is going to be stuck in a difficult position. They are going to need sairs to deal with your muta, and thusly because of the amount of sairs that you are going to be forcing- P's ground army is going to be extremely limited. If P does decide to push out earlier, look at the composition of his army. If P is going with chons, have the hydra shipe them- and have the muta take care of the zeals. If P opted for early HT's try and snipe with the muta.
Now from my experience, once you get your muta off- you are going to want to do a few things.
I like to get my 5th hatch down soon after my muta are off. Then I opt for hydra speed and ovie speed. Followed by +1 Cara, with +1 missile. (really I don't think that I can explain the timings for these upgrades, however I have a few replays at the bottom of the page. I am hoping that when you watch them, you can get a feel for the timing.)
The Late game:
After the muta are out, consolidate your economy. I like to build another round of drones, and as I said earlier take my 5th hatch. Once I get hydra speed, and ovie speed- I start going for a 3 evo chamber before hive. I normally go cara, missile, melle in that order. The beauty with this build is that you are not stuck to pure hydra. Because of the amount of hatcheries that you will be able to support, ling play is very very possible. I normally try and end games with a hydra ultra army. Once my hive is up I go straight for ultras, and then slowly grind down P.
With the early hydras you should have a good contain going on P. Coupled with you muta, P is not going to be able to grab their 3rd as rapidly. Once the build goes into the late game, starving the protoss is the name of the game. When P does eventually move out they are gong to take their 3rd. Because at this point they are going to be close to starving. Because you have had map control for so long, you should have 3 to 4 bases at least. At this point the game is essentially yours.
So- how does the early hydra fair against different FE P stratagems?
SairReaver: the early hydra build CRUSHES this build. There is simply no way around the fact that this build sets the zerg player up very nicely to stopping the sair reaver. This game is an example of how I played against this strat. Simply put, you can stop his first two reavers quite easily with your muta blob. In this game I ended up sacrificing most of my muta, but sniped his first two reavers and the shuddle. Afterwards because the p player had essentially left me to macro alone, I finished the game comfortably. Here is the rep:
2 chon push: Once again, because of the surplus this build offers- I could quickly mass hydra and crush his first push (which was quite small because of the amount of money invested in cannons) I made plenty of mistakes during this game, and while I couldn't snipe his spinning forge, I still deflected the attack easily. Afterwards, I could easily out macro him (because of his lack of gates)
Early zeals: While I do not have a replay to show you- I can instead tell you how to affective combat a very early zeal push from P. Because you should always be sitting at their choke, trying to be as annoying as possible- take note of their zealot numbers. If you see at any time that they are significantly larger than normal- turn all of your hatcheries into hydra pumps for a short period of time. Once your range hydras are at critical mass, no amount of zeals is going to scare you. (Also an important note about zealot vs hydra fighting. Don't spread your hydra out in an ark. Instead keep them in a ball. The reason the ball is better, is because then the zealots cannot all engage your hydra at once. You are going to be presenting a smaller surface area for the zealots.)
And of course what do you do if P decided to take his 3rd in zvp before pushing out? here is the answer:
**New Replay**
Ok this game i recently played. This shows what happens when the protoss tries to cut corners, and doesn't play honest.
Ok so that pretty much wraps up this guide. As usual I highly suggest you to try out the build, and post your replays in the thread. I know for a fact that most of you are far better players than I. Comments criticisms always welcome (unless they are from T_co) Other than that- flame away TL flame away.
More reps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Reasons zvp run replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Post game analysis by reason can be found here:+ Show Spoiler +
Hopefully i can get the time to analyse them more in depth as well. As usual if you have any replays that you would like to add post them or pm me. I would like to see them.
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I didn't get to watch any replays, but the writeup is good. My only complaint about the build is that you aren't putting any early pressure on the toss so he's going to expand early. Did these opponents 14 nex when they saw your build? I'll answer that myself in about 10 mins 
okay watched the games quickly. My big question is what is the benefit of getting these early hydras? You didn't use them when you made the den, and you didn't immediately start upgrading. All I really see is a hydra all-in modified to an expand --> Lair --> Spire build. I mean I would personally use 5 hatch hydra --> muta build since that's very effective and flexible. Though you're getting the earlier hydra you're not really pressuring. That and your opponents (at least that one game on Medusa) were not so great in terms of strategy and macro.
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What game on medusa? The 3 base before push p or the one that tried a 2chon zeal. the hydras do quite alot of damage in some of my games. Im a pro pacifist type of player, and really im not that aggressive. The hydra are simply going to force P to build cannons. Much more than the normal 2 or 3. This is going to slow down the gates by quite a large margin, and at any point if the protoss is not being honest, you can try for a hydra break.
The hydra also serve a few important roles.
1. They stop your first one or two scout lords from being corsair sniped
2. Stop any DT play stone cold.
3. Apply pressure throughout the early and mid game
The last game i have on medusa is vs a C+ player, so idk if he sucked or anything.
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I didn't really like your zerg on coke and zerg on crack builds ideas that you popped up earlier but this particular build is much better done. Good quality work.
I think the proper protoss reaction would have to be to turtle just the right amount and then push out slightly later than usual. Though that kind of ability to time things well might not exist at low levels of iccup.
The build depends on him either over reacting or not reacting at all. It's hard for the protoss to always react correctly.
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12hatch 11pool 12gas? Well, I firmly believe you need to go for 9pool or overpool speed if you're planning on doing any 2-hatching, otherwise the protoss will just see everything.
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On May 27 2009 08:33 Shikyo wrote:
12hatch 11pool 12gas? Well, I firmly believe you need to go for 9pool or overpool speed if you're planning on doing any 2-hatching, otherwise the protoss will just see everything.
He did sort of address this... but only getting 2 lings to chase around a probe means it could practically live forever, yeah.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you.
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On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you.
You didn't read it... at all.
Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there.
Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure.
Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.
I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point.
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On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you.
here is a replay proving what happens when the protoss tries to cut corners:
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Russian Federation134 Posts
i think this is a very good build
also in the python game im one of the obs and his opponent was on a 4game winning streak against c-/c players. So this strategy clearly works, and it shows.
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never ever ever ever ever ever 12 hatch when you wanna do a hydra rush, either 9 pool or overpool gas, get ling speed then put drones back on gas when the probe is killed.
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On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point.
1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes?
2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after.
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On May 27 2009 12:14 zulu_nation8 wrote:
never ever ever ever ever ever 12 hatch when you wanna do a hydra rush, either 9 pool or overpool gas, get ling speed then put drones back on gas when the probe is killed.
It's not a hydra rush at all. In fact- I am not rushing to anything with this build. i don't want to be sneaky, because i am not trying to be sneaky. Imagine T rushing zerg with some marines just to force sunk- that is the entire idea with this build. It is certainly not an all in play.
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On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after.
1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta.
2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.<
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.<
The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame.
Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later.
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On May 27 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.< The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame. Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later.
And you don't make any sense in your post.
1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME
2. I am pumping drones from 2/4 hatches the entire time i am pumping hydra off of one hatch. If you have 2 nexus, and i have 2 hatcheries (producing drones) i will produce peons faster than you. If you consider that i will have 4 hatcheries pumping 2 rounds of drones after the muta- 4X3=12X2=24
24 more drones, in around 2 min of time after the muta pop.
3. If protoss builds 8 cannons to stop my pressure, and then the muta- the total mineral waste is 150*8= 1200mins. Those minerals could have gone into gateways, or zealots. Because you are forgoing both- you will not push out at your normal time. In fact, if you were to build that many cannons i would have ample time to pump a third or possible 4th round of drones before you push out. Which would give me a far superior economy, and a far superior production rate. After my muta have popped, and i am droning up for a round or two- my mineral excess allows me to take a 5th and 6th hatchery, soon after the 8min mark. Your late, and too few gateways are not going to be able to out produce 6 hatch. Sorry.
did you read the guide at all?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:
And you don't make any sense in your post.
1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME
2. I am pumping drones from 2/4 hatches the entire time i am pumping hydra off of one hatch. If you have 2 nexus, and i have 2 hatcheries (producing drones) i will produce peons faster than you. If you consider that i will have 4 hatcheries pumping 2 rounds of drones after the muta- 4X3=12X2=24
24 more drones, in around 2 min of time after the muta pop.
3. If protoss builds 8 cannons to stop my pressure, and then the muta- the total mineral waste is 150*8= 1200mins. Those minerals could have gone into gateways, or zealots. Because you are forgoing both- you will not push out at your normal time. In fact, if you were to build that many cannons i would have ample time to pump a third or possible 4th round of drones before you push out. Which would give me a far superior economy, and a far superior production rate. After my muta have popped, and i am droning up for a round or two- my mineral excess allows me to take a 5th and 6th hatchery, soon after the 8min mark. Your late, and too few gateways are not going to be able to out produce 6 hatch. Sorry.
did you read the guide at all?
1. 8 cannons will slow the the timing of protoss by one minute, but it will not damage his economy.
2. Protoos peon production doesn't not equal to zerg peon production.If a zerg produces drones from 3 hatches, it doesn't mean that the zerg is better off economically compared to protoss. Zergs need more bases to be even with a protoss. Secondly, your build tells people to start with 2 hatch gas then a quick hydra den and then 1 hatch drones into more hatches. You'll have a significantly worse economy than someone who 3 hatch drones. It's calculus man.
3.Protoss could lose 1200 minerals, but they'll mine that much with time. He'll have to push after he recoups the 1200 minerals. But you shouldn't think that you'll have a better economy than the protoss. In fact, it's the opposite, while you're in your base making hydralisk, protoss is in his base making probes. Zerg's economy is exponential, you'll get punished in the mid game and late game for not making drones in the beginning.
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On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.< The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame. Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later. And you don't make any sense in your post. 1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME did you read the guide at all?
Building enough hydras to force 8 cannons is going to slow down your economy BIG TIME.
I don't like how you are calling out T.O.P for not reading the guide--it definitely seems like he did to me. Realize that you went 2 hatcheries in the beginning. How is this in any way conducive to a better economy than the protoss? You are somehow acting as though your build does not make your economy worse.
The protoss might be delaying the time that they push out at in order to fend off your hydra pressure, but the fact that you are going somewhere between all-in and economy heavy is going to ensure that your economy is not as good as his. Add to this the fact that you are going to be advertising your tech, meaning that although the protoss will be forced to cannon in preparation for a hydra break they will not have to prepare for mutalisks until later.
You seem to be forgetting that for protoss vs zerg, the more dangerous of the resources is gas. You are forcing cannons, great. You are going to delay when the protoss moves out. However, you are not in any way affecting the amount of gas they mine and put into units like templars. It's storm that breaks zerg armies, and your reduced economy is going to have a harder time dealing with that then a build that did not make early units.
I'm not trying to say it's a bad build; it in fact looks solid to me. You are just wrong when it comes to refuting T.O.P's points.
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On May 27 2009 14:08 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:
And you don't make any sense in your post.
1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME
2. I am pumping drones from 2/4 hatches the entire time i am pumping hydra off of one hatch. If you have 2 nexus, and i have 2 hatcheries (producing drones) i will produce peons faster than you. If you consider that i will have 4 hatcheries pumping 2 rounds of drones after the muta- 4X3=12X2=24
24 more drones, in around 2 min of time after the muta pop.
3. If protoss builds 8 cannons to stop my pressure, and then the muta- the total mineral waste is 150*8= 1200mins. Those minerals could have gone into gateways, or zealots. Because you are forgoing both- you will not push out at your normal time. In fact, if you were to build that many cannons i would have ample time to pump a third or possible 4th round of drones before you push out. Which would give me a far superior economy, and a far superior production rate. After my muta have popped, and i am droning up for a round or two- my mineral excess allows me to take a 5th and 6th hatchery, soon after the 8min mark. Your late, and too few gateways are not going to be able to out produce 6 hatch. Sorry.
did you read the guide at all? 1. 8 cannons will slow the the timing of protoss by one minute, but it will not damage his economy. 2. Protoos peon production doesn't not equal to zerg peon production.If a zerg produces drones from 3 hatches, it doesn't mean that the zerg is better off economically compared to protoss. Zergs need more bases to be even with a protoss. Secondly, your build tells people to start with 2 hatch gas then a quick hydra den and then 1 hatch drones into more hatches. You'll have a significantly worse economy than someone who 3 hatch drones. It's calculus man. 3.Protoss could lose 1200 minerals, but they'll mine that much with time. He'll have to push after he recoups the 1200 minerals. But you shouldn't think that you'll have a better economy than the protoss. In fact, it's the opposite, while you're in your base making hydralisk, protoss is in his base making probes. Zerg's economy is exponential, you'll get punished in the mid game and late game for not making drones in the beginning.
1. Yes we established this. I will say again that this build is meant to damage your timing. However if you are lazy with your cannon timing- i can always go in and end the game. If you actually think that you can build 8 cannons and think you would only be a minuet behind- you truly are an optimist.
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
3. losing 1200min in the early game is a big deal. Once again if you don't understand how this is going to slow you down- i don't think that i can argue with you. If you would take the time to watch any of the replays, or read the guide- you would see that my hydra harass begins before you even place your core. I cannot honestly think that a protoss player wasting 1200min is not going to have significant delays. And once again- the longer the game goes on, the more hatcheries i will have- which allow me to 'pop' rounds of drones. I can build 12 drones by the time you make 2 once i get 4 hatcheries. With my build, i get 4 hatch right after i start my lair. So please explain to me how i cannot 'play catchup' with you?
If you would like- race yourself. Play protoss building only nexus, pylons and probes and see how fast you can max. Then play zerg building only hatcheries, lords, and drones. Who do you think would max faster?
You don't bring up any points that have not been addressed in the guide.
the answer!!!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
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