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On May 27 2009 14:22 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 13:42 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:On May 27 2009 12:26 Misrah wrote:On May 27 2009 12:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 27 2009 11:01 Jayme wrote:On May 27 2009 09:02 T.O.P. wrote:
I can't see why this build is any good. You're making lots of hydras early on, but you're not attacking with them. Then you make mutas at 7:50, when the protoss has plenty of time to corsair scout you and put up the appropriate defenses. You're going to have a terrible economy in the mid and late game. I can't see how you can stop a attack move from protoss 10-11 minutes into the game. The protoss would literally run over you. You didn't read it... at all. Making hydras that early puts SIGNIFICANT pressure on the protoss because it absolutely forces him to build cannons unless he just wants to forfeit the game right there. Also note that he's building drones from 1 to 2 hatcheries nearly the entire time. The beauty of zerg is you know.. the ability to make a whole round of drones whenever you want to spike your economy. You aren't going to be behind if the protoss has to build 5-6 additional cannons in the early game to thwart the hydra/muta pressure. Also, you can almost always range snipe the forge with hydralisks because protoss just don't expect you to pull that off most of the time. If you delay the +1 upgrade by killing the forge you've basically won right there.I prefer 5 hatch hydra build but I can see why this one works. Even if the protoss sees it he still builds a ton of cannons... which is the point. 1. At the cost of your army decreasing in size compared to the toss. Why not just work on your economy first and then focus on your army when the time comes? 2. If that determines a win in ZvP then I must just be playing wrong. What benefit does +1 weapons have in a hydra heavy build? May as well skip the +1 and go right for leg speed and storm, then do the +1 after. 1. His army is significantly decreased because of his lack of gates. Coupled with the fact that your muta are going to force even more cannons, further delaying the build. Don't forget that i have plenty of hatcheries with build, along with excess minerals. Once my muta are out- i can normally get one or two more rounds of pure drone production. Peon wise, i am staying completely even with and even exceeding the production rate of the P. Only for a very short time do i have 1 hatch pumping drones. Once my other two hatch come up- i have three hatch pumping straight drones until muta. 2. I don't think that killing the forge in zvp is an auto win either >.< The problem is that he could just build 8 cannons to stop whatever pressure you are doing and he'll be so far ahead economically after the initial pressure. When the zerg makes hydras instead of drones in the early game, the zerg's economy will be so bad in the mid to late game. You have to realize that zerg is different from protoss or terran. Protoss could pump probes non stop while building cannons and gateways. But every hydra you make in the early game means you get to build 1 less drone (because of the number of larva you get). Also, if you have less drones than you could have gotten, that means your mining rate is below standard. That means you're not going to be able to build hatcheries as fast. That would mean you'll have less drones and less units in the midgame. Protoss doesn't get a worse economy from your pressure, they could make probes non stop. Forcing those cannons early on will only make their gateway timing 1 minute later. And you don't make any sense in your post. 1. Building 8 cannons is going to slow you down BIG TIME did you read the guide at all? Building enough hydras to force 8 cannons is going to slow down your economy BIG TIME. I don't like how you are calling out T.O.P for not reading the guide--it definitely seems like he did to me. Realize that you went 2 hatcheries in the beginning. How is this in any way conducive to a better economy than the protoss? You are somehow acting as though your build does not make your economy worse. The protoss might be delaying the time that they push out at in order to fend off your hydra pressure, but the fact that you are going somewhere between all-in and economy heavy is going to ensure that your economy is not as good as his. Add to this the fact that you are going to be advertising your tech, meaning that although the protoss will be forced to cannon in preparation for a hydra break they will not have to prepare for mutalisks until later. You seem to be forgetting that for protoss vs zerg, the more dangerous of the resources is gas. You are forcing cannons, great. You are going to delay when the protoss moves out. However, you are not in any way affecting the amount of gas they mine and put into units like templars. It's storm that breaks zerg armies, and your reduced economy is going to have a harder time dealing with that then a build that did not make early units. I'm not trying to say it's a bad build; it in fact looks solid to me. You are just wrong when it comes to refuting T.O.P's points.
The gas argument is valid- however i have taken this into account as well. If you look at any of the replays (other than the reaver sair) you will notice that the protoss is always faced with a huge problem. What should they do with their Templar. Templar timing will be late. Also consider that i will have 9 muta out and flying around the p. If he builds chons to stop the muta, i have hydra. If he decides to just go straight for HT- then i have the early muta to snipe them. HT are not deadly if they do not have an army to supplement their storms. Because of the delays, and the limited gateways- P is not going to have a huge army. Its even worse if the P decides to invest in corsairs to fend off my 9 muta. Each sair is worth 100 gas- further delaying any significant HT army.
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great writeup (:
+ Show Spoiler +definately going to try this form of 3hatch hydra on someone :D
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The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying...
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Very nicely written guide.
I figure if you are gonna go all in, just go completely in, or if you are gonna be greedy, take all you can before you are crushed.
I would agree that the protoss is better off if you don't pressure him right off the bat. That's the point of early hydra, you break them and do damage. You gotta commit one way or another. Being units or eco.
Question, how would a nony style 2 base timing attack do against this build?
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Ok I read it.
For Misrah+ Show Spoiler +You have clearly put a lot of time and effort into this build and the format of your post is very nice. Before I have even finished the first section though, this is staring out at me. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/userstream.phpOn May 26 2009 11:54 Misrah wrote:
The early game build order:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
*It is very important that you continuously pump drones form your natural hatch during this point in the build.*
Once your extractor pops send 3 drones over
When your natural hatch pops- build an overlord with the first larvae (should be either 14/18 or 15/18)
once you mine 50 gas pull your drones off, and have one of your gas drones immediately start a hydra den.
*It is important to remember that during the entire time you are continuously pumping drones from your nat and main hatch. However be aware that once your hydra den pops one hatch will be solely producing hydra.*
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.
I just want to say straight off this is purely about your write up, not about the build itself. Bolded section 1: What natural hatch? The natural hatch is still making, and this line confused me a lot. Did you mean main hatchery? If so, correct the typo. If not, this line is unnecessary/chronologically misplaced. Don't tell me what to do with the natural hatchery when it is still making... Bolded section 2: Make 2 lings when pool pops? But I have already thrown down hydra den and I am constantly producing drones... this line is definitely chronologically misplaced. Try to make the writeup follow the build order exactly, eg in this instance you tell me to place hydra den and then pump probes continuously, then AFTER that you tell me that I should have made 2 lings when the pool came up. I know it may seem like a minor point but trust me I have no ill feelings towards you, I am writing this because it gave me genuine trouble and I had to re-read everything again to understand what was going on. These are really minor points but you want to make it as easy to visualise as possible and the best place to start with that is to make sure that you put the steps and instructions (and tips) in your post perfectly aligned with the build order.To make it clear, I will re-write the section I have mentioned in the way I think it should be. Then you can see if you agree with the change and look through the rest of the writeup and make sure it is consistent, this means I do not have to point out every instance of this and you can do it yourself, we can use this one section as an example. They are minor changes but will help people meeting this BO for the first time a LOT. If you disagree, fair enough, it's your post  I'm just giving you my unbiased opinion as someone coming across this post, and the problems I had with it. I will score through lines that should not be there or are misplaced, I will colour red my own input and I will underline something you wrote already but where I have inserted it differently. If this all seems really nit-picky to you I apologise, my only intention is to help you. On May 26 2009 11:54 Misrah wrote:
The early game build order:
12 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
constant drone production
*It is very important that you continuously pump drones form your natural hatch during this point in the build.*
Once your extractor pops send 3 drones over
When your natural hatch pops- build an overlord with the first larvae (should be either 14/18 or 15/18)
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.*
once you mine 50 gas pull your drones off, and have one of your gas drones immediately start a hydra den.
*It is important to remember that during the entire time you are continuously pumping drones from your nat and main hatch. However be aware that once your hydra den pops one hatch will be solely producing hydra.*Off the top of my head I think it should be your main hatchery that produces hydra because your natural will have very few drones, especially since you used the first larvae for an overlord. Regardless of what I think, specify which hatchery should be used, and for what reason. Since you are doing this build 1.only versus FE and 2. the same way every time (at least for the early game/opening build order), put in every single "usual" food count that you can for reference
Once your pool pops I like to build 1 pair of lings to chase the scouting probe.*
I see upon reading further you specified it was indeed the natural hatchery that would be pumping drones, but there's no point in keeping this a secret. Mention it in the first place. Also if you intend to place your third hatchery at an expansion immediately or just before/after the hydra den pops it would be helpful to say "send drone to third base when den is 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 done" and specify which timing for taking usual third or another main (obviously it's map specific but you can generalize) so I don't come across that part of the writeup and go "Oh, I was supposed to send a drone at some point previously." Zerg can't teleport! In your recap remember to mention building 2 lings as soon as pool pops! "For the sake of simplicity, I will continue this build order based on the macro approach to this build. ie. I hatch hydra pump only. My surplus will be used in teck, and drone production." If you mean 1 (one) then put 1 (one) and not i (eye) or L (el)... minor but again I had to re-read. But enough of the minor details!
This build looks pretty cool... going to try it out now and hopefully I will be able to post some gg's.
Zerg has been my offrace for quite some time but I really enjoy playing them and I hate playing versus them so I am considering swapping. That said, although I've been playing Z quite a lot recently I don't think I am really good enough to critique this strategy: I am merely going to try it repeatedly and post the results.
I do think it's a really nice idea though.
Here are the games:
+ Show Spoiler +Game 1: He went 7 pylon (lol?) and cross map scouted me immediately !!! on colo2... so I took my third first and tried to stick to your build apart from that..I forgot 2nd gas timing so just went with what felt right but honestly I executed this build horribly... I'm hoping it will be more attractive in the following games. Nice idea, kicked ass this game, I got my 4th horribly late and it could have been a 4th and 5th no problem , he made exactly 8 cannons (haha... your sooo good misrah) and didn't move out for a loooong time (of course he kinda sucked, I'm still at C- but C soon, still making lots of mistakes :D) Game 2: Contains something I've always wondered about doing when P delays expo with probe, or even if they don't! Probably not the best example of your build but it was a fun game so I'll put it up. Game 3: Executed the build order more precisely this time. I think.
Game 4:LOSS!
In this game I follow the BO.. he techs dt and forces my hydras home.. my overlords are badly placed so he gets a few drones (omg) then while waiting for muta I don't keep my lings outside his base and before I know it I have zero sunkens (which I could afford but didn't make) and his army attacked, so I lost.
I think I could have defended that attack easily and come out ahead if I had only scouted properly...Maybe If I keep original overlord with my hydras and keep the dt in his base!?....
I think this build works nicely, but I haven't tried the standard 5 hatch hydra build myself so I couldn't compare the two... maybe someone else can do that?
Game 5: Gas 1 drone late + Lair at 200 gas + forgetting to make spire when lair comes up = LATE SPIRE. Still gg. Game 6: [Vs C rank player (previous 5 games c- vs c-) one more win with this and I'll be C too] Reaver/Sair destroyed my muta and laid waste to my drones... thanks to my 5 base, I come back. Damn reaver/sair turtlers!! da/archon/reaver/templar/carrier defense ;; Game 7: LOSS! Korean P with even stats who once again got his C+ this game. I play like shit and lose in a pathetic manner. First game of the day ;; I am confident the build would have carried me to victory were it not for my poor execution, you can see for yourself. Game 8: I've had breakfast, but I'm still playing like shit. Win though. Game 9: Another win. Game 10: Win Games 11 + 12:Versus KoreanAir B+ protoss. Lost them both;) I beat him PvZ after though :D You can decide whether it is the build or my play but... game 11 I think the build put me in a good position but my play lost it for me. Game 12 I expod in a really dumb place, not only that I saw citadel and mass gates and found myself frantically trying to remember what I was supposed to do against mass zeal. I couldn't. Doh! Thought it was nice opportunity to get reps vs a better player. Honestly I don't think I could beat him ZvP no matter what build I chose, my Z just isn't good enough...
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On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying...
Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down.
about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total.
3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525
So with my build i am trying to do the exact same thing. Also you cannot try and say that 1 cannon can beat X amount of hydra. Once the zerg has 8 or so hydra, you can snipe i cannon down very very quickly. I can guarantee you that 8 range hydras can snipe down 1 cannon before even losing 1. All you need is a bit of micro.
Also about the entire economy thing- read my other posts. They explain in a very straight forward manner- how i deal with economy.
Watch this replay and you can see what i am talking about-
@ Hoo ha-
I wish that i had a replay of this particular strat however i have yet to play a protoss player that has tired this against me. I think that i wrote something in the guide, about watching the zealot numbers. At any time in this build, you can have all of your hatcheries producing hydra. My thoughts on this are- because you will be pressuring the protoss choke, and having a lord in their base for a longer period of time, you should be able to see a protoss that is making zealots instead of cannons. If you see the protoss massing up zealots, then you need to do the same. Stop being greedy, and have your natural and 3rd begin producing hydralisk as well. Once you get to a critical mass (and have your hydra in a ball) no amount of zeals are going to be able to break you.
You need at least 16 drones mining minerals and 3 mining gas to pump hydra off of three hatch, you will still have 3/4 drones extra that are just mining minerals, and can slowly build a surplus. (this is assuming that you are going 3 hatch hydra.) because of this surplus you should have a slight mineral advantage, and instead of building your lair- you could just build another hatch, placing you at 4.
basically i would really like to play against this build. My thinking and theory crafting leads me to believe that because of the delays, and the zealot and cannon sniping i should be able to accomplish in the early game- should make the timing attack late, and rather weak. I would just think that 3 hatch hydra with range should be able to out produce anything protoss could throw at me (at this point in the game.)
@ reason: Thanks a lot for your help reason!
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About your collo build- this strat was at first specifically designed on collo lol. Your replay looked ok. But as you said you didn't have the bo perfectly down yet. ie. Don't get hydra speed, only get range- and then go lair. If you would have had your range hydra on his cliff you could have broken the front door easy lol.
Other than that- did you feel 'economically behind' at any point in the game?
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Misrah, yes. Two minutes later though I had a beasting economy, 4-5 base > 3 base uber macro IMO.
That said he wasn't that good and I don't know much about this build.
What you need to do I guess is get some replays and compare 4th + 5th timing for this build vs 5 hatch hydra and others... my feeling with 5 hatch hydra is because you are SO greedy at the start and getting all these hatches + tech and bases, you are condemned to pumping hydra until the end of time, or at least until you destroy his army or gain the advantage.( I don't actually know the correct 5 hatch hydra BO all I know is I very often end up pumping hydras off 5 hatches 3 base)
With this build I felt I was in control of the game as opposed to cheekily macroing up as much as I could whilst playing uber defensive.... I was the aggressor and the mass expander all at once and it felt very nice.
Ok gonna play some more... I'll request P because I keep getting T/Z ever since I'm trying to practice this build... I will continue to post the reps but be warned : Jello_Biafra just arrived with some weed and the quality of games may decrease substantially. Wish me GL.
Oh, how could I have beaten him if I had upgraded range first :O ? do you mean going 2/3/4 hatch all in hydra?
He did make 8 cannons....
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My understanding is one of two things can happen:
1. If P is too greedy and skimps out on cannons you want to contain/deny scouting with a few speed lings while sneakily building hydras from 3 hatches (stop making drones at 16+3). When you have sufficient hydras and his corsair is about to pop out, you will have range... walk right in.
2. If P is careful & builds enough cannons, you should lay off hydras & back to econ build. In this case you will have a sort of delayed 5 hatch hydra / 3 hatch muta build.
The key question is: will you have fewer hydras/later mutas and a weaker economy when the P moves out if he does make some extra cannons vs. a conventional 5 hatch hydra/3hatch muta build? My feeling is "yes", but have not tested this yet.
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On May 28 2009 03:06 Reason wrote:Misrah, yes. Two minutes later though I had a beasting economy, 4-5 base > 3 base uber macro IMO. That said he wasn't that good and I don't know much about this build. What you need to do I guess is get some replays and compare 4th + 5th timing for this build vs 5 hatch hydra and others... my feeling with 5 hatch hydra is because you are SO greedy at the start and getting all these hatches + tech and bases, you are condemned to pumping hydra until the end of time, or at least until you destroy his army or gain the advantage.( I don't actually know the correct 5 hatch hydra BO all I know is I very often end up pumping hydras off 5 hatches 3 base ) With this build I felt I was in control of the game as opposed to cheekily macroing up as much as I could whilst playing uber defensive.... I was the aggressor and the mass expander all at once and it felt very nice. Ok gonna play some more... I'll request P because I keep getting T/Z ever since I'm trying to practice this build... I will continue to post the reps but be warned : Jello_Biafra just arrived with some weed and the quality of games may decrease substantially. Wish me GL. Oh, how could I have beaten him if I had upgraded range first :O ? do you mean going 2/3/4 hatch all in hydra? He did make 8 cannons....
No you wouldn't be all in= but from the cliff, your range hydras could have knocked down those cannons, the gate and possibly the forge lol.
On May 28 2009 03:45 citi.zen wrote:
My understanding is one of two things can happen:
1. If P is too greedy and skimps out on cannons you want to contain/deny scouting with a few speed lings while sneakily building hydras from 3 hatches (stop making drones at 16+3). When you have sufficient hydras and his corsair is about to pop out, you will have range... walk right in.
2. If P is careful & builds enough cannons, you should lay off hydras & back to econ build. In this case you will have a sort of delayed 5 hatch hydra / 3 hatch muta build.
The key question is: will you have fewer hydras/later mutas and a weaker economy when the P moves out if he does make some extra cannons vs. a conventional 5 hatch hydra/3hatch muta build? My feeling is "yes", but have not tested this yet.
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two.
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Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down.
about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total.
3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525
...Except how the Terran isn't sacrificing economy by getting those units.
I don't see this strategy working at all. Cannons don't hurt the Protoss economy, they just delay the protoss push by a minute or so. Meanwhile, your economy is pretty terrible.
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On May 28 2009 04:31 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down.
about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total.
3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525 ...Except how the Terran isn't sacrificing economy by getting those units. I don't see this strategy working at all. Cannons don't hurt the Protoss economy, they just delay the protoss push by a minute or so. Meanwhile, your economy is pretty terrible.
What i have said earlier about someone asking the exact same questions:
2. Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself? (for the record it's really not that much of a significant loss. In my build i am building drones at just a later time (once my muta pop.) With this build i am producing drones slower but for a longer period of time- negating the early one hatch hydra. Of course my economy will not be as good. However i deal with this because i am going to be slowing you down SIGNIFICANTLY while maintaining map control, which will allow me to take a 4th or 5th base before you even leave yours.
Basically i am building drones at a slower rate, for a longer period of time. Once my muta pop, i spike my economy by producing 1/2 more rounds of drones. This boost gives my economy 24 more drones inside of 1/2 mins.
Watch the replays, this strategy works quite well actually.
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On May 28 2009 04:21 Misrah wrote:
In your first point, you logic is completely incorrect. This build is not really meant for all in play. While it can facilitate all in, none of my replays show this at all. Really thinking that you are going to try and be sneaky and pull something like this just isn't going to happen. The probe is going to be alive in you base for way to long.
second point: It's not necessarily fair to consider this build against a 5 hatch hydra. In 5 hatch hydra, you are not making any attempt to harass or slow the P's gate and tech timings down. I don't really think that you can compare the two.
on #1 - I only suggested doing it if you have a scouting advantage (OL sees P trying to cut corners and you kill his scouting probe).
Otherwise you'd move towards #2. Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out? What puts you in a better position: the earlier timing push vs. 5 hatch hydra or the later push (assuming you forced 6-8 cannons and maybe delayed the +1) vs. your build?
BTW, I am not trying to criticise the BO, I am genuinely interested in the answer and will try to test it out later tonight. If you are online maybe we can test it together... or maybe we can find a willing P :-)
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On May 28 2009 04:59 citi.zen wrote:
Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out?
P isn't just going to come out at the same time vs a 5 hatch hydra as he will vs this build. You're going to have to do something about a zerg going up to 5 bases very quickly, or you will die very quickly. Not only will P be moving out at different times, his army may have different composition.
It's a lot more complicated than "when the P comes out" because the two situations will be entirely different.
The toss isn't just going to move out at his usual time plus the delay of the cannons with exactly the same number and type of units and upgrades, he will be playing an entirely different game than his usual FE vs 5 hatch hydra macrofest, and will play accordingly or lose.
It's really just about which puts you in a better position, which is kind of hard to gauge... only lots of games will tell I guess... unless someone has the magic formula?
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United States17042 Posts
Pretty good. Nice writeup. It's non-standard, and makes the scouting probe think that you're going a fairly strong all-in, but you're playing with a different (prepared) mindset.
You're basically forcing the protoss to show that he can outthink and out adapt you, which is kind of nice. One thing that you might think about adding is going into a mass drop, or possibly even a slow drop map dependent - the fast hydra leads itself into drops with a larger number of units than you would have had if you went standard 5 hat hydra drop.
This build feels like an inbetween build for zerg - it's more aggressive than the standard 5 hat hydra/spire, less aggressive than a 2-3 hat all-in. Because of that though, you don't get to have either of the extreme advantages. It's going to allow you to get into lategame much more easily, but you may be behind when you hit lategame. I bet (i'm not higher level) that when you get to higher level, the protoss having free reign with the corsair is going to allow him to adapt, and then roll you over.
Addressing what I would do against this specific play on colo - more cannons near the front to defend against hydra break, get corsair to scout. See the spire, build 2 cannons in main, 2 cannons in nat. you're econ should be slightly worse from the early hydra, my corsair is going to be slightly late. I bet that the difference in timing between building 2 cannons at the front and 6 cannons at the front (on colo) is enough against most C level P players so that they can't adapt and get the cannons at their main/nat against the muta in time. I see hydra+muta, but with slightly lower drone count, I get ht, get my third, cannon my third, and we have a close fight with 3 base P vs 4 base Z.
Again, nice writeup though.
Edit: you say nothing about upgrade count or anything, but I guess that's an adaptation. I think that you're throwing away the upgrade game, and that's going to hurt you - the P should be able to find that opening with +1 speedzeal/ht/Archon somewhere...or maybe even +2. I hate to say it, but I think that you'll be behind in upgrades the whole game.
I think this build loses against a protoss who builds archons to defend instead of corsairs - the cannons force more gas surplus, which some (most?) protoss will adapt to by building archons to both defend against muta and tank for the cannons against a possible hydra break.
As I think about it further *sighs* someone can correct me who watched more games. I think this is what zergs were doing against protoss when they first started forge firsting (earlier hydra than you see now, basically den before lair play), but sair/reaver and sair/dt beats it (assuming that P builds the proper number of cannons so they can get their sair numbers up). Someone who was seriously watching games back in mid 2007 care to reference games?
then again, in 2007, the map pool heavily favored forge first PvZ (blitz X (auto 14 nex), reverse temple (forge+gate tight wall at nat) blue storm, python, zodiac, katrina (P heavy anyway) loki 2, persona (not used much at all), monty hall (dur) desperado (forge first, small choke). off the top of my head anyway.
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On May 28 2009 02:24 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote:
The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO.
Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor.
And here is really where your build fails:
Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it..
It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Think of it this way- In zvt the terran will build about a control group of marines and 2 firebats- and medics. Now they will simply walk on over to the zerg base simply to force sunkens. The whole idea is to simply slow the zerg down. about~12 marines=12X50= 600 minerals+2Firebats=700min(50 gas)+2medics800min(100 gas) total. 3 sunken=75X3=225+3drones(150)+3sunken morph(150)=525 So with my build i am trying to do the exact same thing. Also you cannot try and say that 1 cannon can beat X amount of hydra. Once the zerg has 8 or so hydra, you can snipe i cannon down very very quickly. I can guarantee you that 8 range hydras can snipe down 1 cannon before even losing 1. All you need is a bit of micro. Also about the entire economy thing- read my other posts. They explain in a very straight forward manner- how i deal with economy. Watch this replay and you can see what i am talking about- @ reason: Thanks a lot for your help reason!
Misrah, I read over all your posts and still don't see any valid responses to what I posed as the weakness of your build.
You simply don't understand how ineffectively you are pressuring protoss while hurting your own economy (and NOT hurting protoss economy at all).
1st point:
You are hurting your economy by making hydras over drones. You are hurting your economy by taking gas early and hydra den. You could be investing in hatcheries instead.... You are hurting your economy by pumping drones from 1 hatch and hydras from 2nd hatch, rather then pumping drones from 2 hatch followed by hydras from 2 hatch.
2nd point:
Your pressure isn't significant enough to damage a smart protoss. Basically protoss will start with only 1 cannon since protoss will have his scouting probe alive forever vs your 2 zerglings. Once protoss sees the hydra den protoss will make a few more cannons and make sure to scout your hydra count.
Sooooo, where does hurting protoss economy come into play?
You are first off not putting any early pressure on so protoss can go 14 nexus, or forge->nexus->1cannon. Both builds that are strong for protoss economy-wise.
Once protoss sees your hydra-den, protoss will have the strong economy I just mentioned, and can easily put down a few more cannons over the next minute while his tech is only slightly slower (and I would imagine responding properly to your build would give faster tech time then responding vs 9-pool pressure (which is actually good...)).
Either way your economy is much worse then if you waited for some sort of timing hydra push or just played standard zvp and you will not have hurt an intelligent protoss..
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I agree with ultramagnetics 100%. Fact is, you don't hurt the Protoss' economy at all while yours suffers terribly. Combine the economy disadvantage with being behind in upgrades, and I don't see how you can stop a smart protoss from rolling you with a timing attack.
It is very inefficient to make hydralisks off of one hatchery and drones of off two, and it isn't hard to see why. You will always be better off going mass drones --> mass hydralisks.
Yes protoss peon production equals zerg production. You produce peons, i produce peons. The only difference is that i can produce peons much faster than you. (i am just going to make this number up) If i am producing 3 drones a min, and you are only producing 2 probes a min- i can tell you who is going to be mining more. If you cannot see this general progression, i don't think that i can even argue with you. Also zerg does not need more bases than protoss to be equal with P in this early game. Peon wise, i will be matching and quickly exceeding your probe numbers. Also because i get 3 hatch before switching to hydra- i have each hatch at a different base. So we have right off of the bat- 3base zerg vs 2 base protoss. Are you saying that because i am using one of my hatch to not build drones that i have a worse economy than a 3 hatch build? no way!! Did you think of that yourself?
You're completely wrong here. The standard macro 3 hatch spire --> 5 hatch hydra gives a much better economy than your build does, but even with that build your economy is on par with the Protoss'. Building cannons doesn't hurt the Protoss at all - it just delays him for a little bit.
Basically i am building drones at a slower rate, for a longer period of time. Once my muta pop, i spike my economy by producing 1/2 more rounds of drones. This boost gives my economy 24 more drones inside of 1/2 mins.
Good Zergs do this with the standard build too...
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Wow nice write up. I'm personally not a Zerg player, but I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into this build. Good for you for sharing it on here.
Btw I'm a D Protoss player.
I did play a somewhat demented form of this build(I'll find the replay and post it on here). The early game was somewhat similar. I saw the hydra den and the hydras w/ my probe, and I immediately began massing more cannons in my natural. In this respect, your build is absolutely ingenious. I was working on a FE into a speed zeal +1 timing attack(4 gates), and it delayed my zealots so much that by the time I went over to his natural to attack, he had enough hydras and one sunken to fight my zeal rush off with ease. But afterwards, I guess the Zerg had no idea what he was doing, and I simply rolled over him. But that's not irrelevant.
I also noticed, while playing that game, that the hydras' upgrades were somewhat late, so it may be of some help to maybe figure out and put down the timing of the first carapace and/or range upgrade. But then again, it may be all about adaptation.
And to those of you criticizing the build... play it and see what happens. If you're a Zerg player, try the BO a few times and see what happens. If you're a Terran or Protoss player, play someone doing this build. If not... it's all theory, nothing is concrete. So play first, think, and then post.
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On May 28 2009 07:18 APurpleCow wrote:
It is very inefficient to make hydralisks off of one hatchery and drones of off two, and it isn't hard to see why. You will always be better off going mass drones --> mass hydralisks.
Unless you are trying to apply early pressure. Like with this build.
18 probes returning 1x8 minerals each 18x8 = 154. Per cannon.
Assume he only makes 5 cannons thats still 780 minerals....
You think that the extra 8 drones(built over a relatively long time) will really earn you THAT many minerals?
At first they may be of use at your natural/third, but you must minus 50 minerals building cost, transfer time for every single one of them and consider they return less and less minerals each as you build your drone numbers up on these hatcheries.
That's just the face value... you can pop the pylon/forge/gate/zealots quite often and incur greater penalties, especially with BO alterations due to replaced units/buildings.
I think the rate at which 1 hatch hydra instead of 1 hatch drone pump(from your main hatchery which already has more than 1 drone per mineral) will damage your economy in comparison with the cost incurred by the protoss is way less than is being made out. I believe with testing that could be proven. It may even be in the zergs favour, straight up...!(not considering units/buildings killed by hydra)
I doubt that it would be taking into account the delay on your 3rd+ hatcheries, but I don't think the difference would be too great and the economical effects would come later and not interfere with initial hydra + muta production.
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United States17042 Posts
I don't think that we're arguing that the standard 3 hat muta into 5 hat hydra, or spire first into 5 hat hydra isn't better - I think that we're trying to say that this is good as a middle ground kind of build, that forces protoss to adapt.
Yes, it hurts zergs econ. and yes, it's not quite as good as straight up macro 5 hat hydra. But it does force Protoss to adapt correctly more often.
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