EPT[G] Early Hydra ZvP - Page 3
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Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 28 2009 07:39 Icarus wrote: I saw the hydra den and the hydras w/ my probe, and I immediately began massing more cannons in my natural. In this respect, your build is absolutely ingenious. It's not ingenious because you still rolled over him after putting up a shitload of cannons. You rolled over him because he has no economy. On May 28 2009 07:46 Reason wrote: You think that the extra 8 drones(built over a relatively long time) will really earn you THAT many minerals? Yes, it earn you a lot more than the cost of the cannons. On May 28 2009 07:46 Reason wrote: At first they may be of use at your natural/third, but you must minus 50 minerals building cost, transfer time for every single one of them and consider they return less and less minerals each as you build your drone numbers up on these hatcheries. That's just the face value... you can pop the pylon/forge/gate/zealots quite often and incur greater penalties, especially with BO alterations due to replaced units/buildings. Protoss doesn't face any economic penalties for putting up cannons instead of gateways. His push will come a minute later, but it would come just as hard. The zerg who uses Misrah's build will be forced to build hydras non stop to survive this push. Protoss's economy will superior to the zergs. On May 28 2009 07:46 Reason wrote: I think the rate at which 1 hatch hydra instead of 1 hatch drone pump(from your main hatchery which already has more than 1 drone per mineral) will damage your economy in comparison with the cost incurred by the protoss is way less than is being made out. I believe with testing that could be proven. It may even be in the zergs favour, straight up...!(not considering units/buildings killed by hydra) I doubt that it would be taking into account the delay on your 3rd+ hatcheries, but I don't think the difference would be too great and the economical effects would come later and not interfere with initial hydra + muta production. I think you're wrong about the economy part. | ||
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FaTe)SoL
Canada110 Posts
Assuming that you were able to force 8 cannons, the protoss would be significantly delayed, but you wouldn't be in that great of a position your self. Should he scout that you've started pumping drones, you'll be even more behind. With the early economic boost, it shouldn't take more than a minute and a half to regain the 1200 minerals spent. A conservative estimate of 24 minerals per second (3 probes bringing in minerals every second) for a minute would yield roughly 1 400 minerals. Deducting the cost of constant probe production and teching (it will have to be at a slower rate), you'd still have a substantial sum to cover most of the cannon cost. The zerg, having sacrificed their economy for faster tech, would be on relatively even ground compared to the protoss, but because their peon saturation would be so much lower (plus the cost of hydras) than the protoss, they wouldn't absorb the loss as well. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On May 27 2009 22:15 ultramagnetics wrote: The only way I see this working is if protoss is lax on his scouting or if toss assumes you are a complete noob due to the sub-par BO. Think of it this way, 1 cannon can handle 2~3 hydra. So what you are spending to pressure toss is 150-225 minerals and 50-75 gas, while toss can deal with the pressure by spending 150 minerals. Ofcourse it is critical for protoss to build enough cannons to deal with hydra mobility and possible poor knowledge of your hydra count. But even in that case the money spent on pressuring/defending would be even or still in protoss' favor. And here is really where your build fails: Not only are you dishing out more cash, you are not investing the cash in better economy. Protoss can have non-stop probe production while making a few cannons. So his economy acts just like in a regular pvz. You are making tons of economic sacrifices at the same time (delaying your third hatch, building hydras over drones, mining 1 gas very early rather then mining 2 gas later, etc...). So your economy slumbers and you have gained very little advantage from it.. It's a bad build that I guess can defeat a noob protoss or a protoss that assumes you are a noob and stops trying... Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about? | ||
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FaTe)SoL
Canada110 Posts
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Icarus
United States105 Posts
From my understanding, this build is trying to force Protoss(one that FEs) through making some early hydras, putting indirect pressure on him/her, and making him put down a few more cannons down as a precaution of an all-in hydra break in the early game. Because you're not pumping drones off of all of your hatcheries, you still have one hatchery making hydras, and that's enough to stop the first push(my zeal rush got stopped cold). After that, you can branch off to mostly anything mid game, and move into late game if needed. I hope you guys actually used this BO or played against this BO before you start saying something... It's just theorycrafting if you haven't played it or played against it. Misrah and Reason has. I have(well, at least something similar to it in early game). Btw, any of you know which replay website is best suited? | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On May 28 2009 04:59 citi.zen wrote: on #1 - I only suggested doing it if you have a scouting advantage (OL sees P trying to cut corners and you kill his scouting probe). Otherwise you'd move towards #2. Here I think it is not only fair, but also necessary to compare this build to the 5 hatch hydra since the final questions is the same: when its all said and done, how many troops and what level economy do you have when the P comes out? What puts you in a better position: the earlier timing push vs. 5 hatch hydra or the later push (assuming you forced 6-8 cannons and maybe delayed the +1) vs. your build? BTW, I am not trying to criticise the BO, I am genuinely interested in the answer and will try to test it out later tonight. If you are online maybe we can test it together... or maybe we can find a willing P :-) First off- it's fine if you criticize the BO. I love it when people critique me. The part that i don't like is when people come into the thread, don't read the OP, dont watch the replays, and don't read the thread- before posting. My patience wears thin when people that have not done any of those steps simply comes in and thinks they 'can prove you wrong.' 1. If you were suggesting that then you are correct. (i must have misunderstood your post. I apologize i was completely in the wrong there.) 2. You bring up some good points in comparing this build to 5 hatch. The end result is important. However this build, and 5 hatch attempt to get there in entirely different ways. 5 hatch hydra is a defensive macro type build. This build is a more aggressive build. If you are playing protoss, and you do not force the desired amount of cannons, or harass hard enough with your muta- of course you will lose. However if you do force the cannons, and can cause some harassment with the muta, will it be enough damage to set you up with an advantage? It's your call. I should start looking at this build compared to 5 hatch. It's going to take some time, but i think you are right. This should be looked at in depth. Because if this is inherently a weaker build, then it is pointless to play. @ GhostClaw- First of all- nice writeup. It seems that you really studied the reps, and actually read the op. I agree with most everything you placed in your post. 1. Upgrades. I do realize that this could be a problem. If you can snipe the forge with your early range hydras, that can help out- but starting upgrades around 8:00 min in the game is very late. The reason that i have chosen to do this is simply because i am saving for muta. It could be very very possible to spend your first 100 gas surplus on missile attack, instead of going lair (after range.) However if you were to go with this rout, i would think that muta would be out of the question. Do you have any thoughts? 2. This brings me to your second point- drops. Really this could be very workable. I have stated in the OP that in order to save your 2 overlords from being corsair sniped, you place them over your hydras and 'contain' the p. Now this serves many purposes. The first is stopping any DT play, the second is to give your muta a 'safe spot' from corsairs, and the third is to protect your overlords. Slow drops could be very possible in this situation because- you will have 2 protected overlords hovering above the P choke already. Going drops also plays well into getting your upgrades faster. Because you only need to waste gas on a lair and 200 gas on drop. Any time between then, you probably could get +1 cara and +1 missle for your hydra. (i have no idea about the timing, but a 1/1 hydra drop could potentially be deadly to a P with a low gate count. 3. I have no idea about the 2007 games. But i really should take a look at these. I had no idea that this might have been already tried. @ultramagnetics What do you want me to tell you? I have repeated again and again in this thread that this build does not attempt to damage protoss economy, until muta are up. the hydra are simply there to delay. Once the muta are off, probe sniping is very possible- and very likely. (Unless protoss is going with mass sair) Does this build give you a weaker economy than 3 hatch? yes. So does going 9 pool speed into 3 hatch, so does going 2 hatch, same as 12 pool, 9 hatch, overpool ext. Once again we have covered this. 1st point: You are hurting your economy by making hydras over drones. You are hurting your economy by taking gas early and hydra den. You could be investing in hatcheries instead.... You are hurting your economy by pumping drones from 1 hatch and hydras from 2nd hatch, rather then pumping drones from 2 hatch followed by hydras from 2 hatch. Really? no way! So your telling me that if i don't build drones- then my economy is going to be weaker? This first point astounds me. We have already covered this, i realize this- and this has been covered. 2nd point: Your pressure isn't significant enough to damage a smart protoss. Basically protoss will start with only 1 cannon since protoss will have his scouting probe alive forever vs your 2 zerglings. Once protoss sees the hydra den protoss will make a few more cannons and make sure to scout your hydra count. Ok a smart protoss will protect himself. Build 8 cannons (1500mins) and then begin playing as normal. then he will have to build more cannons to hold off my muta, so more wasted money. 2 cannons and 1/2 sairs are not enough to hold off 9 muta. I will be doing damage to your probe line. -if you build sairs, you are taking gas away from templar, and weakning your already pathetic ground army. -if you build chons- you are taking gas away from templar, and need to keep the chons inside of your base to defend against my muta -if you build templar: which really is the worst idea because a. your anti muta defense will be limited b. you are not going to be able to push out, because you will not have a big enough army to supplement your Templar, not to mention the fact that i still have muta flying around your base. So all the while this is happening, i will have 4 soon to be 5 hatch. I can make 1-3 rounds of drones depending on how far behind you are/ how much damage i am inflicting/ what tech route you decided to follow. Once again i will make 24 drones in the time you make 2. Allowing my 'devastated economy' to once again become on par with yours. Sooooo, where does hurting protoss economy come into play? You are first off not putting any early pressure on so protoss can go 14 nexus, or forge->nexus->1cannon. Both builds that are strong for protoss economy-wise. Once protoss sees your hydra-den, protoss will have the strong economy I just mentioned, and can easily put down a few more cannons over the next minute while his tech is only slightly slower (and I would imagine responding properly to your build would give faster tech time then responding vs 9-pool pressure (which is actually good...)). Either way your economy is much worse then if you waited for some sort of timing hydra push or just played standard zvp and you will not have hurt an intelligent protoss.. Sooooo, hurting the protoss econ comes into play with the muta. Even if my muta do little to no damage, i will still have the time i need to get another round of drones out. negating any 'economic advantage' you think you have. Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer. I am getting tired of repeating myself. My replays all go into the late game. One replay in particular is on neomedusa- and shows the protoss player getting his third up before pushing out. According to you- he should have easily beat me because his economy is 'so much better.' And by taking his third, he is compounding 'his advantage' even further. If you would actually take the time to watch the replays- you could see what happened in the end. @APurpleCow You are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all? @ Icarus I would like to see that replay if you still have it. It sounds like a really good game, and i appreciate your input after playing against it. Thanks for your time. About the upgrades (please read my response to ghostclaw), i think that ghost claw mentioned the same thing- so i am going to ask you the same question: Do you have any ideas? lol @Reason I was watching your replays, and i have a little tip for you about the game you lost. Place your overlords over your hydra ball!! I think that i have mentioned this before- but this build stops DT play cold. If you would have done that- i think the game would have gone differently. Also thanks for all of your replays, do you mind if i update the OP with them? Once again- thanks everyone for your time and responses. I am exited to hear your thoughts. If you have any replays please post them!!! I am trying to watch every one! **********edit********** I didn't get to everyone so i will finish~ @Monkeyz_Rule You clearly did not understand the BO at all. This is probably my fault (poorly written)- but i would insist that you watch the replays. at no point do you just have your den sitting around. You are not understanding the concepts of this build at all. If you read the op, and im sorry that i cannot write very well- watch the replays instead. perhaps that will shed some light on this? @T.O.P. I guess that we will have to wait till friday. You playing standard protoss FE strats, and me with my strat. I really don't think that the economy is a big deal. the game on neo Medusa that i have up shows this. the p even takes his 3rd before moving out, and i still easily crush him. @FaTe)SoL But! your forgetting one important thing! zerg can make tons of peons at the same time, provided that you have the production. Zerg economy is not like P/T economy. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
You are pretty much repeating what the other guy has already said. I really don't take what you say into consideration, because to me your ideas don't have much clout. Are you not the same guy who goes on and on about 2 hatch muta? You disregard clouds thoughts- and claim that you can win with 2 hatch muta, and don't need to micro at all? 1) Ad hominem 2) All of these are either completely false or out of context. You delay the Protoss' push by a minute and have a shitty economy. I watched the Neo Medusa rep, the Protoss played pretty terrible. He didn't even split, his BO was bad, his macro was subpar, etc. Placing cannons is exactly what i want you to do. 9 pool forces the exact same thing, placing cannons. Cannons slow your gate timing down, which allows me to retain map control for longer. 9 pool hurts the Protoss' economy because the Protoss has to get cannons before Nexus and it delays Protoss' tech greatly. Your build does neither. I don't see how mutalisks are relevant at all. A 3 hatch Mutalisk build does the same thing. | ||
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Icarus
United States105 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On May 28 2009 10:09 APurpleCow wrote: 1) Ad hominem 2) All of these are either completely false or out of context. You delay the Protoss' push by a minute and have a shitty economy. I watched the Neo Medusa rep, the Protoss played pretty terrible. He didn't even split, his BO was bad, his macro was subpar, etc. 9 pool hurts the Protoss' economy because the Protoss has to get cannons before Nexus and it delays Protoss' tech greatly. Your build does neither. I don't see how mutalisks are relevant at all. A 3 hatch Mutalisk build does the same thing. Ad hominem? hardly. I am not attacking your character at all. I was merely referring to a past argument. Disagreeing with a very good SC player, and then saying you only need to do 700mins worth of damage to make 2 hatch muta successful is foolish. I find your position on 2 hatch muta to be horrid. Thusly i am choosing to not care about your strategical input ITT. Good day sir. About the neo medusa game- I have no idea if he was playing on someones alt, yet he was a high C player. 4500 at least. I have no idea what was the deal with that game. If we are looking at pure skill, than my game against another .get player (the sair reaver) should prove my point. in that game i do not damage his economy at all- and according to an observer (who has posted in this thread) this particular .get player was on a 4 game winning streak vs C/C- players. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/13481.jpg)  Although- if you want to game with me anytime, just PM me.Thanks for your input. | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On May 28 2009 09:38 PH wrote: Three hydra will easily take care of one cannon...what are you talking about? 3 hydra without speed or range is shit. I could kill them with 1 cannon and maybe have to pull probes. Im B- protoss, and to me this build makes no sense. 1. if i see 2 lings i don't build cannons I'll just nexus first and my probe will never die. 2. If i see early hydra den at first i might think all in hydra but since my probe won't die I'll see no drones on gas and thus add no extra cannons. 3. With delayed 3rd hatch your going to have alot less larva and you'll just get run over. 4.The pros have already come up with some awesome builds, and IMO to get better at this game you must practice their builds and maybe add small things to modify it so it suits your style of play better. But an amateur build order isn't going to help out the zergs in the lower levels. There were some well thought parts to this build but the main factor is that when the probe stays alive if you don't play normal you'll put yourself behind because toss can react to anything pretty easily. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
Ad hominem? hardly. I am not attacking your character at all. I was merely referring to a past argument. Disagreeing with a very good SC player, and then saying you only need to do 700mins worth of damage to make 2 hatch muta successful is foolish. I find your position on 2 hatch muta to be horrid. Thusly i am choosing to not care about your strategical input ITT. Good day sir. I never disagreed with Cloud and I never said ANYTHING about only having to do any amount of damage with 2 hatch muta. You are completely disregarding my arguments because of a misremembered past argument. Whatever, I guess. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On May 28 2009 10:35 Probe. wrote: 3 hydra without speed or range is shit. I could kill them with 1 cannon and maybe have to pull probes. Im B- protoss, and to me this build makes no sense. 1. if i see 2 lings i don't build cannons I'll just nexus first and my probe will never die. 2. If i see early hydra den at first i might think all in hydra but since my probe won't die I'll see no drones on gas and thus add no extra cannons. 3. With delayed 3rd hatch your going to have alot less larva and you'll just get run over. 4.The pros have already come up with some awesome builds, and IMO to get better at this game you must practice their builds and maybe add small things to modify it so it suits your style of play better. But an amateur build order isn't going to help out the zergs in the lower levels. There were some well thought parts to this build but the main factor is that when the probe stays alive if you don't play normal you'll put yourself behind because toss can react to anything pretty easily. And you clearly have not read the OP, watched any of the replays- or read the rest of the thread. @ Reason I just watched your 5th game- and YOU COULD HAVE ENDED IT!!!! Instead of draging that into late game- you had him. He was so greedy, but your hydra play wasn't the best lol. I thought that game was going to be quick. You had a massive advantage gahh. but you still came back in the end lol. 5 gas before protoss even moves out lol! @purplecow Ahh sure. Your 700 mineral comment- i was wrong. That was not you- just rose. My bad i am wrong. The muta mircro thing was Hapahauli. So on another account i was wrong. You also did not disagree with cloud directly and on that account i am wrong. So misrah is 0-3. I am sorry and fully apologize. I just remember that thread because you had posted in it. It caused me so much nerd rage. That is why i called you out (incorrectly i might add) But this still leaves your points. About macro and all of that. I FULLY REALIZE that my economy is not going to be great. It will be fine after the 8 min mark, once i can pop a round or two of drones. What you are not understand here- is the fact that i am also going to have muta in your base, right around the time protoss is going to want to move out. You are NOT going to be able to move out, because i am going to have muta all over you. i will snipe templar, and probes. In order to stop the muta harrass you need to make more sairs/chon/cannons. I have covered this all in my response to ultramagnetics. Please read that. Once again cow- i do apologize for my incorrect accusations. You did nothing that i had implicated in that 2 hatch thread. I was wrong, and for that i am sorry. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
It seems to me that you're trying to make the claim for the "perfect build order" against protoss, or rather, a build order that's going to have the tactical advantage in any position after the initial hydra contain. The build may seem sound on paper, but... you haven't played any good players yet. There are many things that can go wrong. For one, the Protoss's cannon placement I've seen were far from spectacular. Also, the protoss that you played that macroed up to three bases didn't have very good macro by any standards. I appreciate the passion you have for your build, and no doubt it will help a lot of players here, but if you want to argue it into the higher echelons of play, prove yourself and your build by uploading better replays. You can argue with the guys on this forum all you want, but the only thing that will prove anything is a better-quality opponent. EDIT: In regards to the "sneaky" muta-micro reference above, if you read all my posts, I posted twice in that thread, the second post clarifying my position on muta-micro and generally agreeing with cloud. If you ask people to read your threads, please, kindly read all posts before you accuse. That is all. | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On May 28 2009 10:52 Misrah wrote: And you clearly have not read the OP, watched any of the replays- or read the rest of the thread. I did read the op and I'm telling you this build makes no sense. If you can't kill the scout probe and you use your build you're automatcially behind. I don't need to watch the replays of rookie players to know this build isn't good. This build also has no credibility. (Hasn't been proven to work and hasn't been tested vs any decent players. There are already some incredibly effective zerg builds so why would anyone switch to this. Do you honestly believe you came up with the best zerg build? A build to be used in place of other PROVEN builds? | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
I was thinking on Colo2 P can position cannons up cliff very easily so I think this build may be even more effective on other maps but I will stick with Colo2 as it is motw just now. If you want reps of some other maps then just say and I'll get some. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On May 28 2009 12:01 Reason wrote: Misrah feel free to do with the replays as you please. Your build took me through most of C- rank and I'm C now, im going to play 100% ZvP with this build and see where it takes me. I was thinking on Colo2 P can position cannons up cliff very easily so I think this build may be even more effective on other maps but I will stick with Colo2 as it is motw just now. If you want reps of some other maps then just say and I'll get some. Thanks for the reps. OP is updated. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On May 28 2009 11:09 Probe. wrote: I did read the op and I'm telling you this build makes no sense. If you can't kill the scout probe and you use your build you're automatcially behind. I don't need to watch the replays of rookie players to know this build isn't good. This build also has no credibility. (Hasn't been proven to work and hasn't been tested vs any decent players. There are already some incredibly effective zerg builds so why would anyone switch to this. Do you honestly believe you came up with the best zerg build? A build to be used in place of other PROVEN builds? No you didn't. Quote from the op: Hey TL. Once again it's your resident noob with another great idea ready for the wrath of the strat forum. Recently I have been having trouble with the zvp match up. I have read all of the great guides by superior wolf, w3jjjj, and all of the other great zergs that grace tl with their presence. While I will openly admit that reading this guide could be a waste of time, I decided to write it anyway, because I am having a large amount of success with it at the D-C/C+ level. I doubt that my limited understanding of SC is going to be able to help out your B and A players- but I know there are a lot of noobs (like myself) out there that might find this strat actually useful. So here goes- So almighty B- player, if it isn't worth your time to watch replays from sub standard noobs like myself, why are you wasting your time in this thread? | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7582 Posts
Most players you faced didn't bother to continue to scout, which is why they sacrificed their economy. Non-speed-up'd hydras will have trouble sniping probes if they roam looking for hydra count, and you can't really do much with them because toss will keep an eye out. By the time you have speed, toss will probably have sairs or reavers or hts ready. Also, you say that your drone production outproduces his probes. How is this? I don't know the proper peon ratios but since you have 2 hatches and later 3, with 1 continuously pumping out hydras, isn't it pretty much equal if not disavantageous? I'll write a more thorough post later. One of the games the toss goes 13 nex forge gateway, and doesn't even maynard his probes. He doesn't know how to sair/reaver. | ||
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