EPTFlash used for ZvZ? - Page 3
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reachfortherings
63 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28742 Posts
on some maps it was bad though, like any map with island expansion it would be autoloss vs someone who knew how to play against it but its kinda like, the only advantage hydra opening has is that people dont know how to play against it. against players who do, you pretty much always end up losing.. I used to have success with it, but that was before people became really good at using mutas (both before lan latency and before people started hotkeying overlords with their mutas), and I just assumed it would suck after that.. in zvz you're (unlike tvz, where losing some scvs is fine) ridiculously dependant on not losing workers.. even if you have one or two spores its actually still very easy to pick off like 6 drones, and that just fucks you up pretty hard in zvz. it's just a very funny matchup, because hydra/lurker absolutely rapes mutaling in a straight up fight, its not even close.. but because of timing issues, having to build more spores, sunkens hatches and drones than your opponent, it just ends up not being viable at a very high level.. if you're not very good, try to go hydra lurker, it can make the matchup a lot more fun, and if you're playing against not very good players it can end up working rather well.  | ||
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Redstorm[MFx]
Norway258 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On May 01 2009 22:46 reachfortherings wrote:I can guarantee day/satanik will not win much with this strat at B+ or greater lvl of koreans. I disagree... Similar things were said about mech before, right? | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
On May 02 2009 00:17 Zozma wrote: I disagree... Similar things were said about mech before, right? Maybe someone did, does that mean every strategy we think is bad today is suddenly going to be viable on the highest levels in the future? ZVZ Hydra hasn't been seen in progames since 2005ish as far as I know, there has been a good amount of mech games every year since the beginning of the proscene. The two aren't comparable. It wasn't very good before muta micro, and its worse now. If day is able to get a winning ratio at B- level with going for hydra every game I'd be very surprised. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On May 02 2009 01:40 lingallin wrote: It's because there were problems with mech, and Fantasy or oov came and USED THEIR BRAIN to solve them. Maybe someone did, does that mean every strategy we think is bad today is suddenly going to be viable on the highest levels in the future? ZVZ Hydra hasn't been seen in progames since 2005ish as far as I know, there has been a good amount of mech games every year since the beginning of the proscene. The two aren't comparable. It wasn't very good before muta micro, and its worse now. If day is able to get a winning ratio at B- level with going for hydra every game I'd be very surprised. There are problems with hydralisk builds, but they shouldn't be impossible to work with. | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
In ZvT spamming spores and hydras is viable vs. wraiths because wraiths take up a huge time/resource investment and it causes the Terran to be unable to do much after the spores go up until he gets his ground force in play, but in ZvZ making spores and relying on hydras just gives the other Z player map control as well as larva advantage (key) while you're forced to sit there until you have a sizable hydra army that won't get overrun by muta/ling, and if they can capitalize on it they will win, unless they are of lower skill level than you or make a huge error. But yeah, hydra/ling can own 1hatch muta if you scout correctly  | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On May 02 2009 01:43 Zozma wrote: It's because there were problems with mech, and Fantasy or oov came and USED THEIR BRAIN to solve them. There are problems with hydralisk builds, but they shouldn't be impossible to work with. No, The thing is. There is a large timing window where the Z that is going mutaling can just bust the Z that is going Hydra. Hydras are cost uneffective in small amounts and the mutaling user can just punish the hydra user for that, the mutaling user can also split his army making the hydra user split his army or he is forced to lose drones, a loss loss situation for the hydra user. That timing where the hydra user is getting the speed upgrade and his first 8 hydras up is the moment when he is very vulnerable, also the other reason it is not viable is that Muta control of progamers is fucking imbalanced, did you see how Jaedong maulled Iris in the WL finals? That was against units that heal themselves and do more damage to mutas per sec, what do you think Hydras will do vs someone with Muta micro of JD/Zero/Hero's caliber. This build is definitely viable D to C level, but after that I dont think it can work vs the muta micro and the timing understanding of Z players. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
If people never play with or against this build, how are they supposed to know timings against it? And if I had Satanik here, you're saying you would play a bo5 against him and win? I already understand that there's no point arguing with people. So... that's all from me. | ||
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L!MP
Australia2067 Posts
so yeah, a cool thing to throw in against your buddies/foreigners, just don't bother with it against a korean. they know how to counter it. | ||
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Duke
United States1106 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10829 Posts
On May 02 2009 02:54 L!MP wrote: it's actually pretty effective, however i'd only do it with 1 evo as you won't have gas for 2. you're basically stuck to 2 base so timing is critical. you move out with 1-1 or 1-2 or 2-2. the problem is, if they've seen it before, the counter is guardians and you really don't have the mobility to stop that. it's a brute force type build and can shock people who are unaware that upgraded hydras with a few lings mow down anything less than a muta swarm with a pitch black cloud underneath them so yeah, a cool thing to throw in against your buddies/foreigners, just don't bother with it against a korean. they know how to counter it. i've seen day9 do this build in person and from what i saw (i may be wrong here), it was 2 evo chamber and move out when you have 2/2 upgrades with about 3.5 ctrl groups of hydras. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36390 Posts
On May 02 2009 02:46 Zozma wrote: Understanding of timing? If people never play with or against this build, how are they supposed to know timings against it? And if I had Satanik here, you're saying you would play a bo5 against him and win? I already understand that there's no point arguing with people. So... that's all from me. just because one build was said to suck (mech) and made a comeback doesn't mean all builds will follow that trend. mech vs zerg is actually the one exception to the hundreds of builds that are bad that never were revived. how is someone winning mutaling vs hydra against a far superior player (satanik) proof of anything? you're being the stubborn one here not anyone else. | ||
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snorlax
United States755 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 01 2009 09:58 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: how effective would it be for a Zerg in ZvZ to go hydras with double evos, and mass spore in a manner terrans use the flash build to almost completely negate muta harass? then later push out at 1/1 missle attack+carapace with hydras? u'd have to make 1 sunk in front of hatch, so they don't sunk your hatch from the front, and this sunk must be protected by sproes too... just a theory what do you guys think? Its been done, and it sucks. For the most part. Its too easy to lose a lot of drones. Also all that money invested into spores/sunks will allow the muta use to get an extra expansion or even 2. If the muta zerg adapts correctly (delaying mutas, earlier upgrades, more drones, earlier expansions) you will have absolutely no hope in winning. A lot of zergs make the same mistake against mech when going muta. Instead of getting a good econ, they rush mutas too quickly and when they fail to a LOT of damage early, they are so behind economically they can never get back in the game. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines596 Posts
On May 02 2009 08:26 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't play zerg but i've also wondered about this being used as a surprise build and if its viable. Also if Queen/Ensnare is viable? I mean even going mutaling vs mutaling, sacrificing some resources for ensnare will likely win the muta fight wouldn't it? Suddenly the ball is uselessly slow, vulnerable to scourge, slower firing etc. Or would the timing for ensnare research just take too long? i've tested it right now it takes 60 seconds to make queens nest and 80 seconds to research ensnare, and ensnare lasts 30 seconds. maybe instead of upgrading altogether you could go for ensnare? | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
On May 02 2009 09:21 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: i've tested it right now it takes 60 seconds to make queens nest and 80 seconds to research ensnare, and ensnare lasts 30 seconds. maybe instead of upgrading altogether you could go for ensnare? no it is impossible to land a perfect ensare on an army that is more mobile then yours and is flanking you. Its been tried to death, it doesn't work well at all. | ||
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