EPTFlash used for ZvZ? - Page 4
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Strayline
United States330 Posts
On May 01 2009 14:40 AttackZerg wrote: strayline post the replay. I know who that was! I doubt it  This was a pretty low-level game (we were both barely over 100 APM) but if you're interested...![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/11767.jpg) | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On May 01 2009 20:44 StarBrift wrote: Are you kidding? It's the other way around. 6 groups of mutas will kill an infinite ammount of hydras if the terrain is tight. They will die soooo much faster than the mutas. Add dark swarm and plague and you have another deal. But then cracklings should rip everything apart. no ones going to try to fight mutas next to a cliff anyone, and most foreigners dont have the micro capable of defeating hydras in "infinite" amounts. its a very viable build imo if you can survive the early game and make it to lair with lurks | ||
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
On May 02 2009 10:25 arb wrote: no ones going to try to fight mutas next to a cliff anyone, and most foreigners dont have the micro capable of defeating hydras in "infinite" amounts. its a very viable build imo if you can survive the early game and make it to lair with lurks Problem is, if you go in an open field, you are going to get flanked by a lot of lings. There are way too many timing windows that the muta/ling person can abuse. It is nearly impossible to even get a critical ball of hydra/lurker and by the time u actually do so, the other zerg has probably 4 base or so. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines578 Posts
On May 02 2009 10:31 WindCalibur wrote: Problem is, if you go in an open field, you are going to get flanked by a lot of lings. There are way too many timing windows that the muta/ling person can abuse. It is nearly impossible to even get a critical ball of hydra/lurker and by the time u actually do so, the other zerg has probably 4 base or so. but once you do get to critical mass, wouldn't you be able to easily shut down zerg expos like terrans do? its always 2base terran that go expo hunting vs a 3 or 4 base zerg when they push out | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
I think the only time we're ever going to see something that isn't mutaling zvz in progaming is when we finally get an MSL or OSL Finals with two zergs. Which is never going to happen, so forget about it. I would really like to see Day[9] and Satanik's zvz replays though, just for entertainments sake... Satanik actually seems to have been using the same zvz style since 2001... 12 hat, ling till 15, hat again.... I wrote it all down somewhere... Because it's a turtle build, it's the almost exactly the same way way up into supply count, which makes it not that noob friendly. Building placement for defending against lings and muta is also super critical I found. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 02 2009 12:24 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: but once you do get to critical mass, wouldn't you be able to easily shut down zerg expos like terrans do? its always 2base terran that go expo hunting vs a 3 or 4 base zerg when they push out Terrans usually take that 3rd base these days, but it isn't the same at all for a number of reasons. The first is that a lot of sunks shuts down hydra completely. The second is that because of the way zerg economy works... It's not a like a Terran who is constantly making scvs... And mutaling is hyper aggressive, so Zerg is forced to use larvae on things that aren't drones, and even use drones they have on sunks, evo chambers, all this crap. You're right that ZvZ hydra ling vs muta ling is all about the timing attack and one big push... But for hydra ling, that push absolutely cannot fail, and cannot be delayed. Terrans at least can take their time and grab another expo. That's the other problem with hydra zvz I found... It feels like you're just doing an all-in build. Your attack either works, or it doesn't. It never 'kind of' worked where you then decide to expo... Or at least, it almost never does. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
I had his entire autoreplay folder until recently(damn formating) I'll see if I can get in touch with him to grab it again. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Over pool Drone till 11 Hatchery at nat Zerglings till 15 Hatchery at 15 Zergling till 17 Overlord 2 drones to mine at nat Zergling to 18 from nat Creep colony at nat at 18 Zergling at first attack Power drones when sunk is done Evo chamber at 27 Drone, overlord Two creep colonies at each base, for spore keep powering drones additional sunk at nat + 1 spore to each base extractor extractor at nat Power drones still Hydra den and carapace upgrade Start pumping hydra, add 4th hatchery upgrade hydra speed, upgrade to lair upgrade hydra range when speed finishes upgrade ranged attack when carapace finishes build a spire move out cautiously (just to scare other zerg), upgrade lurker aspect upgrade ranged attack level 2 start morphing lurks in safety save some lurk for d, move out with the rest, counter attack keep hydra a little ahead of lurks | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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lepape
Canada557 Posts
Of course, this cant really be compared to ZvT, for Terran turrets are so cheap and not damaging to your economy to build (unlike spores), and covering your whole base properly with spores can be tricky. But I recommend every Zerg player to try going hydras at least once in ZvZ, it's surprisingly effective. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On May 02 2009 09:44 AttackZerg wrote: no it is impossible to land a perfect ensare on an army that is more mobile then yours and is flanking you. Its been tried to death, it doesn't work well at all. its really really easy to ensnare mutas.. you just press e and click on the muta in the middle, ensnare sticks to units like maelstrom and plague.. when I went mass hydra, which I did a lot, ensnare was often the key that made me win the game. I'd sometimes do like, naked expansions to the other side of the map that I intended on being spotted just to get off a perfect ensnare before attacking actually, because a lot of zergs ended up attacking that exp with mutas instead of lings. then i'd ensnare all the mutas when they were in a far off region of the map, then instantly run to counter his nat so his sunkens would be without muta support ;p Not a bad idea eh ? For those saying that mutas can snipe drones : wtf ? have you ever played hydras in zvz ? I love it when they snipe it because i've like 3+ spores waiting for mutas... Hell i'd even have 5 or 6 hydras by the time so if he goes throught it, be sure that he takes a lot of damage. I even think it's worse for the mutas user. | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On May 02 2009 15:16 RaiZ wrote: When you put three spores up on one base the muta player has already done his job of slowing you down a huge amount by wasting 3 drones and whatever minerals on spores, not to mention he will just go snipe your drones at your expo instead. Oh did you mean you made 6 spores? I wonder how many bases the muta user would have by then.. Hell by the time you move out after making so many spores what's stopping the muta user from making lurkers of his own after taking two more bases than you and having complete map control?Not a bad idea eh ? For those saying that mutas can snipe drones : wtf ? have you ever played hydras in zvz ? I love it when they snipe it because i've like 3+ spores waiting for mutas... Hell i'd even have 5 or 6 hydras by the time so if he goes throught it, be sure that he takes a lot of damage. I even think it's worse for the mutas user. and yes I've done my fair share of using hydras in ZvZ, but against someone who knows what he's doing it just doesn't work. The few times it does work it's fun but it just feels like you beat the guy because he just played worse than you. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On May 02 2009 15:16 RaiZ wrote: Not a bad idea eh ? For those saying that mutas can snipe drones : wtf ? have you ever played hydras in zvz ? I love it when they snipe it because i've like 3+ spores waiting for mutas... Hell i'd even have 5 or 6 hydras by the time so if he goes throught it, be sure that he takes a lot of damage. I even think it's worse for the mutas user. If you make 3+ spores, I can expand and upgrade at the same time without being behind in economy. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28683 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28683 Posts
On May 02 2009 09:44 AttackZerg wrote: no it is impossible to land a perfect ensare on an army that is more mobile then yours and is flanking you. Its been tried to death, it doesn't work well at all. its really really easy to ensnare mutas.. you just press e and click on the muta in the middle, ensnare sticks to units like maelstrom and plague.. when I went mass hydra, which I did a lot, ensnare was often the key that made me win the game. I'd sometimes do like, naked expansions to the other side of the map that I intended on being spotted just to get off a perfect ensnare before attacking actually, because a lot of zergs ended up attacking that exp with mutas instead of lings. then i'd ensnare all the mutas when they were in a far off region of the map, then instantly run to counter his nat so his sunkens would be without muta support ;p | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On May 02 2009 10:25 arb wrote: no ones going to try to fight mutas next to a cliff anyone, and most foreigners dont have the micro capable of defeating hydras in "infinite" amounts. its a very viable build imo if you can survive the early game and make it to lair with lurks That is completely wrong. 4.5 and above Hydra groups with upgrades kill infinite amounts of Z units if the other Z doesnt have Swarm. If you dont believe me try it. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 02 2009 15:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: its really really easy to ensnare mutas.. you just press e and click on the muta in the middle, ensnare sticks to units like maelstrom and plague.. when I went mass hydra, which I did a lot, ensnare was often the key that made me win the game. I'd sometimes do like, naked expansions to the other side of the map that I intended on being spotted just to get off a perfect ensnare before attacking actually, because a lot of zergs ended up attacking that exp with mutas instead of lings. then i'd ensnare all the mutas when they were in a far off region of the map, then instantly run to counter his nat so his sunkens would be without muta support ;p It isn't the muta that you need to ensare. I have an account on iccup that I still just use for 3 hat lurker zvt/ lurker drops zvp and hydra zvz. Queens just don't work well anymore. In the time I've decided to go queens, they lurker up a 3rd and 4th gas, while achieving hivetech. When I say it doesn't work, I mean it doesn't work past C+ on iccup, which I consider the borderline where you can do anything and win and when everybody has good enough micro/macro to beat complete 'bs' strategys. the mutas were never the problem for me. It was the 7-8 hatches of other units they can power while I turtle and prey for grades. Me and satanik currently go overpool -> 3 hat with about 12 lings -> lair -> spire + evo -> 10 scourge -> drone/ 4th-5th hat-den-evo-queens nest. You basicly setup a 110-130 push. Scourge are the really opener. Also if your scourge see no spores and/or a hydraden, then you build 9 muta and muta harrass yourself while pumping straight to about 40 hydra (which will have about +2 when you have 110 supply) Ensare never works out the way it should. At least for me if you can pull it off at the level you play (for those of you who don't know he is ,I think, 2 ranks higher then me on iccup ) then please post it but for me it just because not viable beyond c/c+. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28683 Posts
), but hydra with ensnare is still gonna lose when you go past c+.ok nevermind i misunderstood some but if mutas isnt the problem, then you need to make lurkers on your own (spend gas you'd spend on queens on lurkers) just 2-3 lurkers and you make lings useless. | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
best example yet satanik vs xiaozi on rush hour(is in replay database if im not mistaken) however you might forfeit your advantage from turtle/hydra into 3base if opponent zerg isnt dumb enough to stay on pure muta/ling. the moment he adds lurkers your advantage nullifies cause he hadnt to put that much static defense early in the game thus probably his econ will be way better and muta/lurker is keeping him alive when your best timing to 1-punch hydra him is. (if im totally wrong please post, its always better to come nearer to the truth  ) | ||
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