EPTu'd have to make 1 sunk in front of hatch, so they don't sunk your hatch from the front, and this sunk must be protected by sproes too...
just a theory what do you guys think?
Flash used for ZvZ?
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines525 Posts
u'd have to make 1 sunk in front of hatch, so they don't sunk your hatch from the front, and this sunk must be protected by sproes too... just a theory what do you guys think? | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
edit: also it lets the opponent expand at will | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
ur too late :D | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
also lest not forget the fact that hydra suck at defending min lines against muta, and every time you are going to be placing up more and more spores you are going to be hurtingyour econ. If i ever see a zerg player going hydra, i just get a den myself and upgrade lurkers. GG So in short- no this is a stupid idea becase a. You will be ecnomically behind too many defensive structes, and the fact that the other zerg can simply take one more expo than you b. Muta > Hydra c. Your upgrades wont do shit becasue the other zerg player is going to have flyer upgrades as well. So all in all trying to make a TvZ build work for ZvZ is fail. | ||
LosingID8
CA10825 Posts
just ask day[9] | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
if they did yes it would be viable  | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines525 Posts
i find in tvz flash FE, then going wraiths with cloak to harass zerg ovies/mins and negate mutas is effective, with a quick transition to rine/med. your starport now stop making wraith and produce vessals. to me it helps terran expanding up to par with zergs, since the wraiths can keep track and hinder zerg expos, while you aren't contained. this strat was used by ganzi to beat jaedong in one of the games this month | ||
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Marine50
Australia1764 Posts
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Marine50
Australia1764 Posts
On May 01 2009 10:14 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: yes air superiority is a big thing now, so wouldn't it be wise for terrans to copy zergs and get air rather then m&m? i find in tvz flash FE, then going wraiths with cloak to harass zerg ovies/mins and negate mutas is effective, with a quick transition to rine/med. your starport now stop making wraith and produce vessals. to me it helps terran expanding up to par with zergs, since the wraiths can keep track and hinder zerg expos, while you aren't contained. this strat was used by ganzi to beat jaedong in one of the games this month he also got Valkyries and lots of tanks later too. Perfect unit combo to counter JD | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
I'd like to see it if Satanik or Day could comment on their experience with hydralisk play. | ||
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epicdoom
United States489 Posts
On May 01 2009 10:13 LosingID8 wrote: it works pretty well, actually. just ask day[9] ^ He mentioned it in one of his podcasts too, from the conception of the idea to executing it into a valid strategy in general terms, it's quite good | ||
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TimmyMac
Canada499 Posts
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
so no | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 01 2009 10:13 LosingID8 wrote: it works pretty well, actually. just ask day[9] I want replays. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
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sMi.SyMPhOnY
United States226 Posts
Statisically muta ling works better, but if you want to use it once in a bo3 or bo5 it doesn't hurt to change it up a bit. Just don't assume this is an insta win vs muta ling, this strategy plays rather on your opponents ability to adapt or some sort of advantage gained through early game. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
It works. BUT It's pretty luck based though. You need to scout him constantly. If you see that he's going den aswell get speed ovi asap. It works best when you can defend the 2 bases properly. The thing is you really need to scout in order to not whoring drones / spores against mass glings. Works wonderfull against 90% of koreans zerg as they mostly go 1 hatch mutas style. I remember when i played it in the previous season, it took many korean z off guard with hydras 1/1 and eventually 2/2 with ovi speed. Guards ? scout it, then scourge. It's not as weak as many ppl think. Also works better on narrow paths (not to narrow though as mutas would pretty much rape them) | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Biochemist
United States1008 Posts
 It can definitely work, although against a very good opponent in a Bo5 you probably won't fare very well if that's the only style you're good at. | ||
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Strayline
United States330 Posts
The guy got 3 bases and walled in with den/evo/sunken at his natural choke. Then got spores up and I'm honestly not sure if he ever went lair. I think he did but he could have won without it. His econ was great even vs my 12 hatch because he droned almost like it was ZvP or T and the spores at the mineral only behind his main helped a lot to defend both lines and hydras at his choke helped cover the nat. I'm pretty sure I could have overrun him at one point with mass ling if I'd known from the start what he was doing but I scouted the wrong direction and he did get enough lings himself that I went for mutas instead. I'm a noob but I usually know what I could have done to win a game when it's over but I'm honestly not sure what I could have done differently that time except going for what would normally be a risky all in given the info I had at the time. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
I know who that was! | ||
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ZaplinG
United States3818 Posts
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skronch
United States2717 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
The first time, I realized mutas are considered small, so hydras only hit them for 5, and said fuck it. After that, every time I consider hydras ZvZ, I can't help but think that 99.9% of progames go mutas. Never see hydras except in the extremely rare cases of 30 minute games or something. There must be a reason no progamer goes hydra instead of muta ZvZ ever. That said you're not playing against progamers, so I'm sure if you refined a good build, you could do reasonably well with it. | ||
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Elite00fm
United States548 Posts
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
It's very winnable but lurkers are required. Most zergs counter hydras with a shitload of lings and their mutas and that's beatable because lurkers take out any number of lings . when you beat a hydra zerg often you either: - out harass him and win early on. - abuse greater mobility and win later on. The second option requires few zerglings, just have a bunch to stab / kill ninja exps. All minerals you get left over from mutas should be invested into sunkens guarding your (extra) expand. For example you can hatch the ramp and sunk up there making it very hard to penetrate with hydra. When you have 10 sunks at your exps he basically can't attack you and the game goes into expand-all-over mode. You can have islands whiteout defense there so getting drop to get islands is gosu. You should be able to exand more overall if you save up money for mass sunk and dont waste into useless zerglings. This is about what l.drone said about this once and It's very true to me | ||
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Marine50
Australia1764 Posts
On May 01 2009 15:35 skronch wrote: if anyone can pull this off well in a game, can you please post a rep? i find that i'm pretty confined to the ling/muta/scourge style of ZvZ simply because it's the only build i've ever seen on tv. Reps of this would be great to watch. I remember in a TL.net Attack episode someone went Hydra against muta on Tau Cross | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=23108¤tpage=All Posts made in these threads by L.Drone is very good if you intend to play hydra/lurk | ||
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Swarmy
Canada70 Posts
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines525 Posts
On May 01 2009 16:15 davidgurt wrote: HI CRIM lol hello dt | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On May 01 2009 15:37 evanthebouncy! wrote: Eh.. hydra has power in large numbers, mutaling diminish power in large numbers. Depend if you can get enough Are you kidding? It's the other way around. 6 groups of mutas will kill an infinite ammount of hydras if the terrain is tight. They will die soooo much faster than the mutas. Add dark swarm and plague and you have another deal. But then cracklings should rip everything apart. | ||
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/11751.jpg) On Tau cross, from gosucup 8 finals. Ptak vs chosen. I think the key was that the build wasn't scouted until he was almost at his nat. I feel like mass lings and attacking main muta, nat zerglings would work just as well with such a drone advantage, but once he has set himself up with hive and hydra with 2 gas against 2 gas, he has the game won, as his army is way more cost effective, and he also has defilers with plague coming pretty soon. | ||
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malathion
United States361 Posts
Why not try it for 20 games and report the results? | ||
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kroko
Finland2136 Posts
+ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=70721 | ||
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
this unorthodox build best to surprise someone because it work best on player that don't know how to counter it :0 | ||
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reachfortherings
63 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
on some maps it was bad though, like any map with island expansion it would be autoloss vs someone who knew how to play against it but its kinda like, the only advantage hydra opening has is that people dont know how to play against it. against players who do, you pretty much always end up losing.. I used to have success with it, but that was before people became really good at using mutas (both before lan latency and before people started hotkeying overlords with their mutas), and I just assumed it would suck after that.. in zvz you're (unlike tvz, where losing some scvs is fine) ridiculously dependant on not losing workers.. even if you have one or two spores its actually still very easy to pick off like 6 drones, and that just fucks you up pretty hard in zvz. it's just a very funny matchup, because hydra/lurker absolutely rapes mutaling in a straight up fight, its not even close.. but because of timing issues, having to build more spores, sunkens hatches and drones than your opponent, it just ends up not being viable at a very high level.. if you're not very good, try to go hydra lurker, it can make the matchup a lot more fun, and if you're playing against not very good players it can end up working rather well. | ||
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Redstorm[MFx]
Norway258 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On May 01 2009 22:46 reachfortherings wrote:I can guarantee day/satanik will not win much with this strat at B+ or greater lvl of koreans. I disagree... Similar things were said about mech before, right? | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
On May 02 2009 00:17 Zozma wrote: I disagree... Similar things were said about mech before, right? Maybe someone did, does that mean every strategy we think is bad today is suddenly going to be viable on the highest levels in the future? ZVZ Hydra hasn't been seen in progames since 2005ish as far as I know, there has been a good amount of mech games every year since the beginning of the proscene. The two aren't comparable. It wasn't very good before muta micro, and its worse now. If day is able to get a winning ratio at B- level with going for hydra every game I'd be very surprised. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On May 02 2009 01:40 lingallin wrote: It's because there were problems with mech, and Fantasy or oov came and USED THEIR BRAIN to solve them. Maybe someone did, does that mean every strategy we think is bad today is suddenly going to be viable on the highest levels in the future? ZVZ Hydra hasn't been seen in progames since 2005ish as far as I know, there has been a good amount of mech games every year since the beginning of the proscene. The two aren't comparable. It wasn't very good before muta micro, and its worse now. If day is able to get a winning ratio at B- level with going for hydra every game I'd be very surprised. There are problems with hydralisk builds, but they shouldn't be impossible to work with. | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
In ZvT spamming spores and hydras is viable vs. wraiths because wraiths take up a huge time/resource investment and it causes the Terran to be unable to do much after the spores go up until he gets his ground force in play, but in ZvZ making spores and relying on hydras just gives the other Z player map control as well as larva advantage (key) while you're forced to sit there until you have a sizable hydra army that won't get overrun by muta/ling, and if they can capitalize on it they will win, unless they are of lower skill level than you or make a huge error. But yeah, hydra/ling can own 1hatch muta if you scout correctly | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On May 02 2009 01:43 Zozma wrote: It's because there were problems with mech, and Fantasy or oov came and USED THEIR BRAIN to solve them. There are problems with hydralisk builds, but they shouldn't be impossible to work with. No, The thing is. There is a large timing window where the Z that is going mutaling can just bust the Z that is going Hydra. Hydras are cost uneffective in small amounts and the mutaling user can just punish the hydra user for that, the mutaling user can also split his army making the hydra user split his army or he is forced to lose drones, a loss loss situation for the hydra user. That timing where the hydra user is getting the speed upgrade and his first 8 hydras up is the moment when he is very vulnerable, also the other reason it is not viable is that Muta control of progamers is fucking imbalanced, did you see how Jaedong maulled Iris in the WL finals? That was against units that heal themselves and do more damage to mutas per sec, what do you think Hydras will do vs someone with Muta micro of JD/Zero/Hero's caliber. This build is definitely viable D to C level, but after that I dont think it can work vs the muta micro and the timing understanding of Z players. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
If people never play with or against this build, how are they supposed to know timings against it? And if I had Satanik here, you're saying you would play a bo5 against him and win? I already understand that there's no point arguing with people. So... that's all from me. | ||
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L!MP
Australia2067 Posts
so yeah, a cool thing to throw in against your buddies/foreigners, just don't bother with it against a korean. they know how to counter it. | ||
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Duke
United States1106 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10825 Posts
On May 02 2009 02:54 L!MP wrote: it's actually pretty effective, however i'd only do it with 1 evo as you won't have gas for 2. you're basically stuck to 2 base so timing is critical. you move out with 1-1 or 1-2 or 2-2. the problem is, if they've seen it before, the counter is guardians and you really don't have the mobility to stop that. it's a brute force type build and can shock people who are unaware that upgraded hydras with a few lings mow down anything less than a muta swarm with a pitch black cloud underneath them so yeah, a cool thing to throw in against your buddies/foreigners, just don't bother with it against a korean. they know how to counter it. i've seen day9 do this build in person and from what i saw (i may be wrong here), it was 2 evo chamber and move out when you have 2/2 upgrades with about 3.5 ctrl groups of hydras. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
On May 02 2009 02:46 Zozma wrote: Understanding of timing? If people never play with or against this build, how are they supposed to know timings against it? And if I had Satanik here, you're saying you would play a bo5 against him and win? I already understand that there's no point arguing with people. So... that's all from me. just because one build was said to suck (mech) and made a comeback doesn't mean all builds will follow that trend. mech vs zerg is actually the one exception to the hundreds of builds that are bad that never were revived. how is someone winning mutaling vs hydra against a far superior player (satanik) proof of anything? you're being the stubborn one here not anyone else. | ||
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snorlax
United States755 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 01 2009 09:58 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: how effective would it be for a Zerg in ZvZ to go hydras with double evos, and mass spore in a manner terrans use the flash build to almost completely negate muta harass? then later push out at 1/1 missle attack+carapace with hydras? u'd have to make 1 sunk in front of hatch, so they don't sunk your hatch from the front, and this sunk must be protected by sproes too... just a theory what do you guys think? Its been done, and it sucks. For the most part. Its too easy to lose a lot of drones. Also all that money invested into spores/sunks will allow the muta use to get an extra expansion or even 2. If the muta zerg adapts correctly (delaying mutas, earlier upgrades, more drones, earlier expansions) you will have absolutely no hope in winning. A lot of zergs make the same mistake against mech when going muta. Instead of getting a good econ, they rush mutas too quickly and when they fail to a LOT of damage early, they are so behind economically they can never get back in the game. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines525 Posts
On May 02 2009 08:26 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't play zerg but i've also wondered about this being used as a surprise build and if its viable. Also if Queen/Ensnare is viable? I mean even going mutaling vs mutaling, sacrificing some resources for ensnare will likely win the muta fight wouldn't it? Suddenly the ball is uselessly slow, vulnerable to scourge, slower firing etc. Or would the timing for ensnare research just take too long? i've tested it right now it takes 60 seconds to make queens nest and 80 seconds to research ensnare, and ensnare lasts 30 seconds. maybe instead of upgrading altogether you could go for ensnare? | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 02 2009 09:21 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: i've tested it right now it takes 60 seconds to make queens nest and 80 seconds to research ensnare, and ensnare lasts 30 seconds. maybe instead of upgrading altogether you could go for ensnare? no it is impossible to land a perfect ensare on an army that is more mobile then yours and is flanking you. Its been tried to death, it doesn't work well at all. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Strayline
United States330 Posts
On May 01 2009 14:40 AttackZerg wrote: strayline post the replay. I know who that was! I doubt it This was a pretty low-level game (we were both barely over 100 APM) but if you're interested...![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/11767.jpg) | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On May 01 2009 20:44 StarBrift wrote: Are you kidding? It's the other way around. 6 groups of mutas will kill an infinite ammount of hydras if the terrain is tight. They will die soooo much faster than the mutas. Add dark swarm and plague and you have another deal. But then cracklings should rip everything apart. no ones going to try to fight mutas next to a cliff anyone, and most foreigners dont have the micro capable of defeating hydras in "infinite" amounts. its a very viable build imo if you can survive the early game and make it to lair with lurks | ||
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
On May 02 2009 10:25 arb wrote: no ones going to try to fight mutas next to a cliff anyone, and most foreigners dont have the micro capable of defeating hydras in "infinite" amounts. its a very viable build imo if you can survive the early game and make it to lair with lurks Problem is, if you go in an open field, you are going to get flanked by a lot of lings. There are way too many timing windows that the muta/ling person can abuse. It is nearly impossible to even get a critical ball of hydra/lurker and by the time u actually do so, the other zerg has probably 4 base or so. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines525 Posts
On May 02 2009 10:31 WindCalibur wrote: Problem is, if you go in an open field, you are going to get flanked by a lot of lings. There are way too many timing windows that the muta/ling person can abuse. It is nearly impossible to even get a critical ball of hydra/lurker and by the time u actually do so, the other zerg has probably 4 base or so. but once you do get to critical mass, wouldn't you be able to easily shut down zerg expos like terrans do? its always 2base terran that go expo hunting vs a 3 or 4 base zerg when they push out | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
I think the only time we're ever going to see something that isn't mutaling zvz in progaming is when we finally get an MSL or OSL Finals with two zergs. Which is never going to happen, so forget about it. I would really like to see Day[9] and Satanik's zvz replays though, just for entertainments sake... Satanik actually seems to have been using the same zvz style since 2001... 12 hat, ling till 15, hat again.... I wrote it all down somewhere... Because it's a turtle build, it's the almost exactly the same way way up into supply count, which makes it not that noob friendly. Building placement for defending against lings and muta is also super critical I found. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 02 2009 12:24 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: but once you do get to critical mass, wouldn't you be able to easily shut down zerg expos like terrans do? its always 2base terran that go expo hunting vs a 3 or 4 base zerg when they push out Terrans usually take that 3rd base these days, but it isn't the same at all for a number of reasons. The first is that a lot of sunks shuts down hydra completely. The second is that because of the way zerg economy works... It's not a like a Terran who is constantly making scvs... And mutaling is hyper aggressive, so Zerg is forced to use larvae on things that aren't drones, and even use drones they have on sunks, evo chambers, all this crap. You're right that ZvZ hydra ling vs muta ling is all about the timing attack and one big push... But for hydra ling, that push absolutely cannot fail, and cannot be delayed. Terrans at least can take their time and grab another expo. That's the other problem with hydra zvz I found... It feels like you're just doing an all-in build. Your attack either works, or it doesn't. It never 'kind of' worked where you then decide to expo... Or at least, it almost never does. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
I had his entire autoreplay folder until recently(damn formating) I'll see if I can get in touch with him to grab it again. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Over pool Drone till 11 Hatchery at nat Zerglings till 15 Hatchery at 15 Zergling till 17 Overlord 2 drones to mine at nat Zergling to 18 from nat Creep colony at nat at 18 Zergling at first attack Power drones when sunk is done Evo chamber at 27 Drone, overlord Two creep colonies at each base, for spore keep powering drones additional sunk at nat + 1 spore to each base extractor extractor at nat Power drones still Hydra den and carapace upgrade Start pumping hydra, add 4th hatchery upgrade hydra speed, upgrade to lair upgrade hydra range when speed finishes upgrade ranged attack when carapace finishes build a spire move out cautiously (just to scare other zerg), upgrade lurker aspect upgrade ranged attack level 2 start morphing lurks in safety save some lurk for d, move out with the rest, counter attack keep hydra a little ahead of lurks | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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lepape
Canada557 Posts
Of course, this cant really be compared to ZvT, for Terran turrets are so cheap and not damaging to your economy to build (unlike spores), and covering your whole base properly with spores can be tricky. But I recommend every Zerg player to try going hydras at least once in ZvZ, it's surprisingly effective. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On May 02 2009 09:44 AttackZerg wrote: no it is impossible to land a perfect ensare on an army that is more mobile then yours and is flanking you. Its been tried to death, it doesn't work well at all. its really really easy to ensnare mutas.. you just press e and click on the muta in the middle, ensnare sticks to units like maelstrom and plague.. when I went mass hydra, which I did a lot, ensnare was often the key that made me win the game. I'd sometimes do like, naked expansions to the other side of the map that I intended on being spotted just to get off a perfect ensnare before attacking actually, because a lot of zergs ended up attacking that exp with mutas instead of lings. then i'd ensnare all the mutas when they were in a far off region of the map, then instantly run to counter his nat so his sunkens would be without muta support ;p Not a bad idea eh ? For those saying that mutas can snipe drones : wtf ? have you ever played hydras in zvz ? I love it when they snipe it because i've like 3+ spores waiting for mutas... Hell i'd even have 5 or 6 hydras by the time so if he goes throught it, be sure that he takes a lot of damage. I even think it's worse for the mutas user. | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On May 02 2009 15:16 RaiZ wrote: When you put three spores up on one base the muta player has already done his job of slowing you down a huge amount by wasting 3 drones and whatever minerals on spores, not to mention he will just go snipe your drones at your expo instead. Oh did you mean you made 6 spores? I wonder how many bases the muta user would have by then.. Hell by the time you move out after making so many spores what's stopping the muta user from making lurkers of his own after taking two more bases than you and having complete map control?Not a bad idea eh ? For those saying that mutas can snipe drones : wtf ? have you ever played hydras in zvz ? I love it when they snipe it because i've like 3+ spores waiting for mutas... Hell i'd even have 5 or 6 hydras by the time so if he goes throught it, be sure that he takes a lot of damage. I even think it's worse for the mutas user. and yes I've done my fair share of using hydras in ZvZ, but against someone who knows what he's doing it just doesn't work. The few times it does work it's fun but it just feels like you beat the guy because he just played worse than you. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On May 02 2009 15:16 RaiZ wrote: Not a bad idea eh ? For those saying that mutas can snipe drones : wtf ? have you ever played hydras in zvz ? I love it when they snipe it because i've like 3+ spores waiting for mutas... Hell i'd even have 5 or 6 hydras by the time so if he goes throught it, be sure that he takes a lot of damage. I even think it's worse for the mutas user. If you make 3+ spores, I can expand and upgrade at the same time without being behind in economy. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
On May 02 2009 09:44 AttackZerg wrote: no it is impossible to land a perfect ensare on an army that is more mobile then yours and is flanking you. Its been tried to death, it doesn't work well at all. its really really easy to ensnare mutas.. you just press e and click on the muta in the middle, ensnare sticks to units like maelstrom and plague.. when I went mass hydra, which I did a lot, ensnare was often the key that made me win the game. I'd sometimes do like, naked expansions to the other side of the map that I intended on being spotted just to get off a perfect ensnare before attacking actually, because a lot of zergs ended up attacking that exp with mutas instead of lings. then i'd ensnare all the mutas when they were in a far off region of the map, then instantly run to counter his nat so his sunkens would be without muta support ;p | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On May 02 2009 10:25 arb wrote: no ones going to try to fight mutas next to a cliff anyone, and most foreigners dont have the micro capable of defeating hydras in "infinite" amounts. its a very viable build imo if you can survive the early game and make it to lair with lurks That is completely wrong. 4.5 and above Hydra groups with upgrades kill infinite amounts of Z units if the other Z doesnt have Swarm. If you dont believe me try it. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 02 2009 15:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: its really really easy to ensnare mutas.. you just press e and click on the muta in the middle, ensnare sticks to units like maelstrom and plague.. when I went mass hydra, which I did a lot, ensnare was often the key that made me win the game. I'd sometimes do like, naked expansions to the other side of the map that I intended on being spotted just to get off a perfect ensnare before attacking actually, because a lot of zergs ended up attacking that exp with mutas instead of lings. then i'd ensnare all the mutas when they were in a far off region of the map, then instantly run to counter his nat so his sunkens would be without muta support ;p It isn't the muta that you need to ensare. I have an account on iccup that I still just use for 3 hat lurker zvt/ lurker drops zvp and hydra zvz. Queens just don't work well anymore. In the time I've decided to go queens, they lurker up a 3rd and 4th gas, while achieving hivetech. When I say it doesn't work, I mean it doesn't work past C+ on iccup, which I consider the borderline where you can do anything and win and when everybody has good enough micro/macro to beat complete 'bs' strategys. the mutas were never the problem for me. It was the 7-8 hatches of other units they can power while I turtle and prey for grades. Me and satanik currently go overpool -> 3 hat with about 12 lings -> lair -> spire + evo -> 10 scourge -> drone/ 4th-5th hat-den-evo-queens nest. You basicly setup a 110-130 push. Scourge are the really opener. Also if your scourge see no spores and/or a hydraden, then you build 9 muta and muta harrass yourself while pumping straight to about 40 hydra (which will have about +2 when you have 110 supply) Ensare never works out the way it should. At least for me if you can pull it off at the level you play (for those of you who don't know he is ,I think, 2 ranks higher then me on iccup ) then please post it but for me it just because not viable beyond c/c+. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
), but hydra with ensnare is still gonna lose when you go past c+.ok nevermind i misunderstood some but if mutas isnt the problem, then you need to make lurkers on your own (spend gas you'd spend on queens on lurkers) just 2-3 lurkers and you make lings useless. | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
best example yet satanik vs xiaozi on rush hour(is in replay database if im not mistaken) however you might forfeit your advantage from turtle/hydra into 3base if opponent zerg isnt dumb enough to stay on pure muta/ling. the moment he adds lurkers your advantage nullifies cause he hadnt to put that much static defense early in the game thus probably his econ will be way better and muta/lurker is keeping him alive when your best timing to 1-punch hydra him is. (if im totally wrong please post, its always better to come nearer to the truth ) | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
On May 02 2009 17:15 Liquid`Drone wrote: I already wrote that hydra doesnt work on a high level, but stating that using ensnare against muta is hard or doesnt work is just wrong, ensnare is both very good against mutas and very, very easy to use.. its even easier than before because zergs are better at bunching them than before. so _if_ you go hydra, ensnare will help you (additionally, queens can be a lifesaver against lurkers ), but hydra with ensnare is still gonna lose when you go past c+.ok nevermind i misunderstood some but if mutas isnt the problem, then you need to make lurkers on your own (spend gas you'd spend on queens on lurkers) just 2-3 lurkers and you make lings useless. just to add: i once went zvz pure-crackling vs muta/ling/lurker and thought queens for the rescue!!!, too dumb that ensnare didnt uncloak already burrowed lurkers(really thought it would, guess you can imagine how my face looked like when it didnt) but on the otherhand mayb you r referring to overlord/broodling (had no lorspeed yet so T_T) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
then you can parasite one of his lords for detection ^^ | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
On May 02 2009 22:48 Liquid`Drone wrote: no the thing is basically, if you are fighting with hydras against mutaling and he ends up getting lurkers, he is normally having them in defense where he also has overlords then you can parasite one of his lords for detection ^^ damnit why wasnt my opponent smart enough to protect his lurkers with overlords ^^ /sarcasm and irony off | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
He also got ensnare Lurks saved me | ||
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Pyro]v[aniac
United States147 Posts
On May 02 2009 13:26 AttackZerg wrote: Actually since 2001 satanik has been going overpool-> 11 hat - 15 hat. Without deviation. I had his entire autoreplay folder until recently(damn formating) I'll see if I can get in touch with him to grab it again. i used to play similarly 2-2.5 years ago when pgt was around (i quit playing when pgt died) i was a zerg player and i was 90% zvz, and i never opened spire in any of my games. i made a general rule that if they had 1 hatch, i would made 2 hatch (total) and if they had 2 hatch, i would make 3 and eventually 4 hatches total. i generally stuck with pure zerglings and just ploped down 3 spore at each base timed just before the mutas arive at my base. i won the majority of my games with zerglings alone (huge larva lead due to hatcheries) and any game where they barely survived, i followed up with hydra+scourge. you see, mutalisk vs mutalisk is mostly just about micro (i said mostly) while mutalisk vs hydra is mostly about larva management (and whoever can squeeze the most drones/hatcheries without losing). if a zerg player opts for 1 hatch muta/ling, they will generally lose to 12+ hydras before they can even do anything. i haven't played in ages so i can't give a build order or replay, sorry D: | ||
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