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On April 20 2009 05:38 scwizard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 05:35 Mindcrime wrote:On April 20 2009 05:33 scwizard wrote:On April 20 2009 05:26 jello_biafra wrote:On April 20 2009 05:07 scwizard wrote: jello_biafra was being dumb and saying that you'd need to get 8rax to stop 2 hatch muta." No you imbecile I was saying that you'd need to 8 rax to stop the 9 pool lings from killing your assimilators. And from reading your other posts in this thread, your BW knowledge is elementary at best. Meh, the idea is to get a discussion going. Yeah I was being dumb, thought 8 rax refered to the number of rax, no the number of scvs before rax. Because people talk about 6 fact and it means six factories of course. Anyways, what I'm saying, is that you don't need to care if they kill your assimilators, it really doesn't matter. Just turtle. Not having assimilators isn't so bad at all, if anything it stops zerglings from rushing into your base. 4pool = building 4 pools 4real Well if "6 fact" is used to mean 6 factories and "8 rax" is used to mean 8 scvs before rax, then it's kind of counter intuitive. It shows how unfamiliar you are with SC terms, which shows that you are inexperienced and you have no idea what you're on about.
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On April 20 2009 04:59 scwizard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 04:56 Fontong wrote:On April 20 2009 04:13 scwizard wrote:On April 19 2009 23:40 jello_biafra wrote: You're gonna have to 8 rax or BBS to get that many marines fast enough to stop that from happening, seriously. Well, per cost m&m beat mutalisks, so if you build marines and they build mutalisks you should come out on top. Sure do 8 rax if its necessary. Whatever you need to do to beat the mutalisk swarm. Fantasy just beat Jaedong with mech into 8rax out of nowhere. His mutalisks just bounced off that marine blob. The thing about the map is that you know because of the short rush distances and the assimilator weirdness that they're going to be building mutalisks, so the proper answer is to build marines. You should come out on top, and then they'll try something else, and you'll try something else in response and you actually have a proper game. Because you wouldn't build marines otherwise? There are really so many things wrong with your post. Fantasy never beat Jaedong's mutas using marines. He used valkyries to do that. + Show Spoiler +Uhh, didn't you see the game last night?
Jaedong threw 4 gas worth of perfectly microed mutalisks at fantasy, but fantasy's 8 rax was too much, and evertually he got vessels which sealed the deal. Sorry Rostam. Spoilered.
8 rax means barracks on 8 supply not 8 barracks pumping units.
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yeah my main point is, watch the "probably"
such as in this quote
"As long as you have micro, a group of mutalisks would probably be foolish to attack a group of 30 marines attacking a temple. If they try and snipe marines, they'll probably lose a lot of mutalisks and no way will they stop the temple from dying."
stop assuming these are true, have some humility and admit to the fact that your theorycrafting may be more often wrong than right. word it as a question, not as an argument, i.e. "wouldn't marines attacking a temple easily take out mutas trying to snipe them" to which the answer is "no"
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Ok. Gotcha. I'll try and do that in the future.
What about 50 marines? That's around how much resources a control group of mutalisks is worth after all. Would that be sufficient?
+ Show Spoiler +The reason I think marines could do such a thing, is because of that recent Fantasy v Jaedong. Fantasy reached what seemed a critical mass of marines and barracks, and Jaedong's 4 gas mutalisks just couldn't beat it.
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By the time you have 50 marines chugging away at the temples the zerg will have dark swarm and ultralisks coming.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say.
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That's unusual? 50 marines cost as much resources as 12 mutalisks. Why in that case is building 12 mutalisks so much faster than building 50 marines?
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On April 20 2009 05:52 scwizard wrote: Ok. Gotcha. I'll try and do that in the future.
What about 50 marines? That's around how much resources a control group of mutalisks is worth after all. Would that be sufficient? the issue isn't in the amount, it's in the positioning. while the marines are attacking the temple, forcefiring, they wont automatically attack when the mutalisks approach, so it'll take quite alot of micro to both attack the temple and fight off mutalisks as they come.
also, your math is nonsense. you can't equate gas to minerals, because they come in at different rates. taking the 1200min+1200gas = 2400min = 48 marines argument is flawed, and if you ever see a terran with 48 marines while the zerg has 12 mutalisks and no other units, then the terran must have gotten severely ahead somehow.
edit: in fact, dont ever try to do math with resources in non-mirror matchups anyhow, the spending curves and collecting curves are completely different.
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This is why it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.
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On April 20 2009 05:52 scwizard wrote: Ok. Gotcha. I'll try and do that in the future.
What about 50 marines? That's around how much resources a control group of mutalisks is worth after all. Would that be sufficient? Lol. 50 marines.......
Do you realize zerg has the entire map by then?
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Why not add tanks into the mix? I haven't played on Battle Royal yet but assuming we're talking stacked temples the typical 3 tank 1 vessel push could go for the temples except instead of waiting until 3 tanks you could send them to range the temples as the tanks spawn? Admittedly I don't play teran but it seems like it could work.
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The temples aren't stacked. It seems like speed is of paramount importance for the Terran and Zergs put more into their mutalisks on this map, so tanks don't really seem all that useful.
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On April 20 2009 05:55 scwizard wrote: That's unusual? 50 marines cost as much resources as 12 mutalisks. Why in that case is building 12 mutalisks so much faster than building 50 marines?
Because you are building 50 marines out of 4 barracks and you are also building medics. The Zerg have 6 mutalisks as soon as spire starts (Assuming they went 2 hatch muta) and 9 if they went 3 hatch and every 30 seconds they get another 2-3 muta depending on how many hatcheries they have.
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Oh ok.
So it's completely impossible to win if your assimilators go down? It's just not possible to repel mutalisks and open up the temple before the zerg takes the whole map?
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On April 20 2009 05:58 koreasilver wrote: The temples aren't stacked. even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas
its pretty bad
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On April 20 2009 05:58 koreasilver wrote: The temples aren't stacked.
Oh ok well than yeah definitely not a very great map for terran
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On April 20 2009 05:59 scwizard wrote: Oh ok.
So it's completely impossible to win if your assimilators go down? It's just not possible to repel mutalisks and open up the temple before the zerg takes the whole map? its extremely extremely difficult
if you watch any PvT on troy, T almost never wins if their assimilators get destroyed, they have to spend way too many resources (and more importantly, time) just trying to get stuff out
ZvT here is a similar situation
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On April 20 2009 05:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas its pretty bad Yeah, but it doesn't seem like tanks will really help at all on this map against Zerg. It would probably be best to go full out SK with heavy upgrades.
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On April 20 2009 06:01 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 05:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On April 20 2009 05:58 koreasilver wrote: The temples aren't stacked. even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas its pretty bad Yeah, but it doesn't seem like tanks will really help at all on this map against Zerg. It would probably be best to go full out SK with heavy upgrades. mmm, but even if you break the temple, the temple is a pretty narrow choke, zerg could probably set up a heavy lurk contain around the exit if you don't go tanks at all
then you could go dropships but zerg can just scourge that
i dunno it seems hard if your assims die
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On April 20 2009 05:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas its pretty bad The one in the center has double gas, so it's even worse actually.
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scwizard, you should stop posting in this thread and giving advice, because you aren't 100% sure what you are talking about. Trust the forum veterans, you ideology doesn't work the way you think it does.
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