EPTI'm also wondering what kind of strategies the map makes stronger and weaker.
What's viable on Battle Royal?
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
I'm also wondering what kind of strategies the map makes stronger and weaker. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
Small units between geyser and assimilator None between 2 geysers | ||
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 19 2009 22:59 jello_biafra wrote: It would seem that 9 pool speedling into 2 hatch muta ZvT is almost unbeatable on that map. I don't see why this is so? If you spam marines from the very beginning you can repel the zerglings, lock yourself in, and repel the mutalisks. As for PvZ, I'd imagine that Corsiars would fare quite well against mutas if properly executed. Also another technical question. If protoss builds his own assimilator there after the original one has been destroyed, or terran builds refineries there, will that reopen the choke? | ||
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done
Germany70 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:23 scwizard wrote: I don't see why this is so? If you spam marines from the very beginning you can repel the zerglings, lock yourself in, and repel the mutalisks. As for PvZ, I'd imagine that Corsiars would fare quite well against mutas if properly executed. Also another technical question. If protoss builds his own assimilator there after the original one has been destroyed, or terran builds refineries there, will that reopen the choke? no | ||
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myrmidon2537
Philippines2188 Posts
Someone please correct me if i'm wrong >< | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:07 Mortician wrote: None between 2 geysers Only ghosts can go between 2 geysers. On April 19 2009 23:23 scwizard wrote: I don't see why this is so? If you spam marines from the very beginning you can repel the zerglings, lock yourself in, and repel the mutalisks. You're gonna have to 8 rax or BBS to get that many marines fast enough to stop that from happening, seriously. | ||
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Sprite
United States1015 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:40 jello_biafra wrote: Only ghosts can go between 2 geysers. You're gonna have to 8 rax or BBS to get that many marines fast enough to stop that from happening, seriously. + the overlord scout would spot it super early. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:27 myrmidon2537 wrote: I think not, the last time they used the assimilator feature (On Troy), they put some terrain underneath the geyser to make it unbuildable. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong >< You're correct. They have weird terrain + slightly off-the-grid placement of the assimilators (SC places units by grids, but some editors such as Starforge allows you to place 'off-the-grid') results in un-rebuildable vespene geysers. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
I don't see why not. This gas blocking thing.. it's not one of those hacks mapmakers use, it's a normal thing in BW. So if you can build a refinery there, the choke WILL reopen. (unless they made the gas unbuildable like someone mentioned) | ||
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:53 niteReloaded wrote: I don't see why not. This gas blocking thing.. it's not one of those hacks mapmakers use, it's a normal thing in BW. So if you can build a refinery there, the choke WILL reopen. (unless they made the gas unbuildable like someone mentioned) The map makers made the maps with that in mind... ever watched games on Troy? | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:40 jello_biafra wrote: You're gonna have to 8 rax or BBS to get that many marines fast enough to stop that from happening, seriously. Well, per cost m&m beat mutalisks, so if you build marines and they build mutalisks you should come out on top. Sure do 8 rax if its necessary. Whatever you need to do to beat the mutalisk swarm. + Show Spoiler + Fantasy just beat Jaedong with mech into 8rax out of nowhere. His mutalisks just bounced off that marine blob. The thing about the map is that you know because of the short rush distances and the assimilator weirdness that they're going to be building mutalisks, so the proper answer is to build marines. You should come out on top, and then they'll try something else, and you'll try something else in response and you actually have a proper game. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:13 scwizard wrote: Well, per cost m&m beat mutalisks, so if you build marines and they build mutalisks you should come out on top. Sure do 8 rax if its necessary. Whatever you need to do to beat the mutalisk swarm. Fantasy just beat Jaedong with mech into 8rax out of nowhere. His mutalisks just bounced off that marine blob. The thing about the map is that you know because of the short rush distances and the assimilator weirdness that they're going to be building mutalisks, so the proper answer is to build marines. You should come out on top, and then they'll try something else, and you'll try something else in response and you actually have a proper game. if mutalisks were that easy to beat, you wouldnt see games like shine[kal] vs forgg or lux vs frozean, etc etc dont try to analyze cost effectiveness, 9-11 mutas can take out a whole lot more marines, turrets, scvs, and shit than you seem to think | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:13 scwizard wrote: Well, per cost m&m beat mutalisks, so if you build marines and they build mutalisks you should come out on top. Sure do 8 rax if its necessary. Whatever you need to do to beat the mutalisk swarm. Fantasy just beat Jaedong with mech into 8rax out of nowhere. His mutalisks just bounced off that marine blob. The thing about the map is that you know because of the short rush distances and the assimilator weirdness that they're going to be building mutalisks, so the proper answer is to build marines. You should come out on top, and then they'll try something else, and you'll try something else in response and you actually have a proper game. Because you wouldn't build marines otherwise? There are really so many things wrong with your post. Fantasy never beat Jaedong's mutas using marines. He used valkyries to do that. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:13 scwizard wrote: Fantasy just beat Jaedong with mech into 8rax out of nowhere. Err.. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
When one is down only infantry can get through (the largest is hydraliks, vultures can't get through) When both are down, only ghosts can get through (zeglings can't) As for 9 pool into 2 hatch muta, I don't see why defending against 9 pool into 2 hatch muta tvz is so different than defending against 9 pool into 2 hatch muta on any other map. Sure the distances are smaller, but that's pretty much it. It's very hard to win though if they kill your assimilators, and you don't kill theirs, because then they have 4 gas and you can't effectively harass them. It seems like it's very important to kill their assimilators so that they can't get a drone into the middle without elaborate jumping or overlord transport. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:56 Fontong wrote: Because you wouldn't build marines otherwise? There are really so many things wrong with your post. Fantasy never beat Jaedong's mutas using marines. He used valkyries to do that. + Show Spoiler + Uhh, didn't you see the game last night? Jaedong threw 4 gas worth of perfectly microed mutalisks at fantasy, but fantasy's 8 rax was too much, and evertually he got vessels which sealed the deal. Sorry Rostam. Spoilered. | ||
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
I think T has a better chance than P on this map imo, I can't imagine what a Protoss could do to win against Zerg on Battle Royal. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:59 scwizard wrote: + Show Spoiler + Uhh, didn't you see the game last night? Jaedong threw 4 gas worth of perfectly microed mutalisks at fantasy, but fantasy's 8 rax was too much, and evertually he got vessels which sealed the deal. Sorry Rostam. Spoilered. 8rax is not a counter to 2hatch muta what hte fuck are you fucking on | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
I think the biggest advantage zerg has is probably that the small size of the map, and the chokepoints, makes it difficult for the other player to scout them. I think that's counter balanced by the fact that it's pretty much a given what bo they're going to use. They can't go ground really because you can seal yourself off so easily if they choose to. On April 20 2009 05:06 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: 8rax is not a counter to 2hatch muta what hte fuck are you fucking on I wasn't really saying it was, I was saying that building marines is a counter the mutas. jello_biafra was being dumb and saying that you'd need to get 8rax to stop 2 hatch muta. My comment "Sure do 8 rax if its necessary" wasn't talking about a build order really, what I meant was "build a bunch of marines if that's what's needed to repel the mutaliks" | ||
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
This was discussed SO MANY TIMES. the map Troy featured the same thing. both assimilators alive = ultra can pass one destroyed, one alive = zeals,hydra,.. can pass, goons,tanks,.. can't both destroyed = nothing can, not even lings, not even probes with "mineral hop trick" or w/e slide | ||
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:15 MasterReY wrote: OH MY GOD. This was discussed SO MANY TIMES. the map Troy featured the same thing. both assimilators alive = ultra can pass one destroyed, one alive = zeals,hydra,.. can pass, goons,tanks,.. can't both destroyed = nothing can, not even lings, not even probes with "mineral hop trick" or w/e slide ghosts can. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:11 littlechava wrote: ... Good chance I'm just being dumb in this case. Could you give me some examples where a ovie scout being 30 seconds faster than it would be on Peaks of Baekdu makes enough of a difference to make zerg imba? On April 20 2009 05:03 littlechava wrote: I think T has a better chance than P on this map imo, I can't imagine what a Protoss could do to win against Zerg on Battle Royal. What about Battle Royal would stop Bisu from doing what he normally does? | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:07 scwizard wrote: jello_biafra was being dumb and saying that you'd need to get 8rax to stop 2 hatch muta." No you imbecile I was saying that you'd need to 8 rax to stop the 9 pool lings from killing your assimilators. And from reading your other posts in this thread, your BW knowledge is elementary at best. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:26 jello_biafra wrote: No you imbecile I was saying that you'd need to 8 rax to stop the 9 pool lings from killing your assimilators. And from reading your other posts in this thread, your BW knowledge is elementary at best. i agree with this sentiment get better at bw before you start theorycraft threads like this please | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Building marines is a counter to zerglings. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:26 jello_biafra wrote: No you imbecile I was saying that you'd need to 8 rax to stop the 9 pool lings from killing your assimilators. And from reading your other posts in this thread, your BW knowledge is elementary at best. Meh, the idea is to get a discussion going. Yeah I was being dumb, thought 8 rax refered to the number of rax, no the number of scvs before rax. Because people talk about 6 fact and it means six factories of course. Anyways, what I'm saying, is that you don't need to care if they kill your assimilators, it really doesn't matter. Just turtle. Not having assimilators isn't so bad at all, if anything it stops zerglings from rushing into your base. @ flamers: calling me an idiot isn't going to get anything anywhere. Explaining why I'm wrong would stop me from repeating stupid stuff and might even teach someone something. If you're just going to throw insults, probably best to not post in the thread. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
scwizard...... :\ | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:33 scwizard wrote: Meh, the idea is to get a discussion going. Yeah I was being dumb, thought 8 rax refered to the number of rax, no the number of scvs before rax. Because people talk about 6 fact and it means six factories of course. Anyways, what I'm saying, is that you don't need to care if they kill your assimilators, it really doesn't matter. Just turtle. Not having assimilators isn't so bad at all, if anything it stops zerglings from rushing into your base. No it results in a situation where you're probably never going to get out of your base because any attempt to do so will result in either the marines you're using to kill the temple thing getting sniped horribly by muta or the SCVs you try and mine that patch out with getting popped in similar fashion. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:33 scwizard wrote: Meh, the idea is to get a discussion going. Yeah I was being dumb, thought 8 rax refered to the number of rax, no the number of scvs before rax. Because people talk about 6 fact and it means six factories of course. Anyways, what I'm saying, is that you don't need to care if they kill your assimilators, it really doesn't matter. Just turtle. Not having assimilators isn't so bad at all, if anything it stops zerglings from rushing into your base. 4pool = building 4 pools 4real | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 19 2009 22:59 jello_biafra wrote: It would seem that 9 pool speedling into 2 hatch muta ZvT is almost unbeatable on that map. You're guaranteed to kill the assimilators and lock them in, then you can own their marines as they try to kill the temple or pop the SCVs that try and mine that mineral block to get out. it surely isnt unbeatable, since four TvZs were announced to be played in the PL | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:33 scwizard wrote: Meh, the idea is to get a discussion going. Yeah I was being dumb, thought 8 rax refered to the number of rax, no the number of scvs before rax. Because people talk about 6 fact and it means six factories of course. Anyways, what I'm saying, is that you don't need to care if they kill your assimilators, it really doesn't matter. Just turtle. Not having assimilators isn't so bad at all, if anything it stops zerglings from rushing into your base. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. Look, if they break your assimilators, then then you have to break through neutral buildings and etc., which slows down your troop movement, giving the zerg more time to expand and prepare to deal with whatever you're trying to do. Your ground force will have to take a rather long route to get to your base. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
Well if "6 fact" is used to mean 6 factories and "8 rax" is used to mean 8 scvs before rax, then it's kind of counter intuitive. On April 20 2009 05:35 jello_biafra wrote: No it results in a situation where you're probably never going to get out of your base because any attempt to do so will result in either the marines you're using to kill the temple thing getting sniped horribly by muta or the SCVs you try and mine that patch out with getting popped in similar fashion. As long as you have micro, a group of mutalisks would probably be foolish to attack a group of 30 marines attacking a temple. If they try and snipe marines, they'll probably lose a lot of mutalisks and no way will they stop the temple from dying. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:38 scwizard wrote: As long as you have micro, a group of mutalisks would probably be foolish to attack a group of 30 marines attacking a temple. If they try and snipe marines, they'll probably lose a lot of mutalisks and no way will they stop the temple from dying. you wanna try this out? give me 11 mutas, you get 30 marines, and you try to kill the temple before i get guards or something and rape you in fact you just wanna play some tvzs? drop the theorycrafting, lets go | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:37 koreasilver wrote: lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. Look, if they break your assimilators, then then you have to break through neutral buildings and etc., which slows down your troop movement, giving the zerg more time to expand and prepare to deal with whatever you're trying to do. Your ground force will have to take a rather long route to get to your base. Now people are starting to make sense. Yeah, there's no way terran can hold three bases on the map or effectively stop the zerg from grabbing the middle and whatever else they want on the outside. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:38 scwizard wrote: Well if "6 fact" is used to mean 6 factories and "8 rax" is used to mean 8 scvs before rax, then it's kind of counter intuitive. It shows how unfamiliar you are with SC terms, which shows that you are inexperienced and you have no idea what you're on about. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:59 scwizard wrote: + Show Spoiler + Uhh, didn't you see the game last night? Jaedong threw 4 gas worth of perfectly microed mutalisks at fantasy, but fantasy's 8 rax was too much, and evertually he got vessels which sealed the deal. Sorry Rostam. Spoilered. 8 rax means barracks on 8 supply not 8 barracks pumping units. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
such as in this quote "As long as you have micro, a group of mutalisks would probably be foolish to attack a group of 30 marines attacking a temple. If they try and snipe marines, they'll probably lose a lot of mutalisks and no way will they stop the temple from dying." stop assuming these are true, have some humility and admit to the fact that your theorycrafting may be more often wrong than right. word it as a question, not as an argument, i.e. "wouldn't marines attacking a temple easily take out mutas trying to snipe them" to which the answer is "no" | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
What about 50 marines? That's around how much resources a control group of mutalisks is worth after all. Would that be sufficient? + Show Spoiler + The reason I think marines could do such a thing, is because of that recent Fantasy v Jaedong. Fantasy reached what seemed a critical mass of marines and barracks, and Jaedong's 4 gas mutalisks just couldn't beat it. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I don't even understand what you're trying to say. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:52 scwizard wrote: Ok. Gotcha. I'll try and do that in the future. What about 50 marines? That's around how much resources a control group of mutalisks is worth after all. Would that be sufficient? the issue isn't in the amount, it's in the positioning. while the marines are attacking the temple, forcefiring, they wont automatically attack when the mutalisks approach, so it'll take quite alot of micro to both attack the temple and fight off mutalisks as they come. also, your math is nonsense. you can't equate gas to minerals, because they come in at different rates. taking the 1200min+1200gas = 2400min = 48 marines argument is flawed, and if you ever see a terran with 48 marines while the zerg has 12 mutalisks and no other units, then the terran must have gotten severely ahead somehow. edit: in fact, dont ever try to do math with resources in non-mirror matchups anyhow, the spending curves and collecting curves are completely different. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:52 scwizard wrote: Ok. Gotcha. I'll try and do that in the future. What about 50 marines? That's around how much resources a control group of mutalisks is worth after all. Would that be sufficient? Lol. 50 marines....... Do you realize zerg has the entire map by then? | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:55 scwizard wrote: That's unusual? 50 marines cost as much resources as 12 mutalisks. Why in that case is building 12 mutalisks so much faster than building 50 marines? Because you are building 50 marines out of 4 barracks and you are also building medics. The Zerg have 6 mutalisks as soon as spire starts (Assuming they went 2 hatch muta) and 9 if they went 3 hatch and every 30 seconds they get another 2-3 muta depending on how many hatcheries they have. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
So it's completely impossible to win if your assimilators go down? It's just not possible to repel mutalisks and open up the temple before the zerg takes the whole map? | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:58 koreasilver wrote: The temples aren't stacked. even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas its pretty bad | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:58 koreasilver wrote: The temples aren't stacked. Oh ok well than yeah definitely not a very great map for terran  | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:59 scwizard wrote: Oh ok. So it's completely impossible to win if your assimilators go down? It's just not possible to repel mutalisks and open up the temple before the zerg takes the whole map? its extremely extremely difficult if you watch any PvT on troy, T almost never wins if their assimilators get destroyed, they have to spend way too many resources (and more importantly, time) just trying to get stuff out ZvT here is a similar situation | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas its pretty bad Yeah, but it doesn't seem like tanks will really help at all on this map against Zerg. It would probably be best to go full out SK with heavy upgrades. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:01 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, but it doesn't seem like tanks will really help at all on this map against Zerg. It would probably be best to go full out SK with heavy upgrades. mmm, but even if you break the temple, the temple is a pretty narrow choke, zerg could probably set up a heavy lurk contain around the exit if you don't go tanks at all then you could go dropships but zerg can just scourge that i dunno it seems hard if your assims die | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: even breaking 1 5000 hp temple is quite the time commitment though, and you'll have to break another to get into the zerg's nat, all while fighting off (supposedly) 3gas mutas its pretty bad The one in the center has double gas, so it's even worse actually. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
I'm still allowed to point out stuff like the center having double gas though, right? | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
That rule is used most of the time already and i don't see why people don't use it all the time 8rax = rax with 8 supply 8 rax = eight barracks (without a space, it kind of belongs to the word so it determines the sort of it) | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
FBH/Savior spoiler + Show Spoiler + note that FBH lost his nat, as his turrets were really spread out, trying to cover all that ground. It seemed though that the vulture timing allowed FBH to prevent the second assim from dying, so if there is a way to protect both main and nat, you could then transition to pure bionic and just dropship across the gap, if the zerg kills assims later. But again, how to secure both bases on that map.... I dunno, and I have no idea how you could 1 base on that map without getting overrun by a zerg having free control over the rest of it. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:29 MasterReY wrote: to be honest i think you should always use a term WITHOUT a space like 8rax to refer to the supply count when the rax is built and a term WITH a space for the number. That rule is used most of the time already and i don't see why people don't use it all the time 8rax = rax with 8 supply 8 rax = eight barracks (without a space, it kind of belongs to the word so it determines the sort of it) naw i see "6 fact push" as 6fact push all the time its more of a common sense thing | ||
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:33 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: naw i see "6 fact push" as 6fact push all the time its more of a common sense thing ofc its common sense, but why shouldn't it be like that additionally? there are alot of things that are common sence but there are rules for it anyways (in grammar of a language or stuff) | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:34 MasterReY wrote: ofc its common sense, but why shouldn't it be like that additionally? there are alot of things that are common sence but there are rules for it anyways (in grammar of a language or stuff) takes too much effort; its pretty hard to completely standardize any kind of shorthand | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:32 EtherealDeath wrote: wow the distance from main to nat on this map is just crazy, all on flat open ground. Whatever the solution is for terran/protoss I think will have to do something about the distance between nat and main, since if you could somehow secure your nat and main in a not too long period of time. FBH/Savior spoiler + Show Spoiler + note that FBH lost his nat, as his turrets were really spread out, trying to cover all that ground. It seemed though that the vulture timing allowed FBH to prevent the second assim from dying, so if there is a way to protect both main and nat, you could then transition to pure bionic and just dropship across the gap, if the zerg kills assims later. But again, how to secure both bases on that map.... I dunno, and I have no idea how you could 1 base on that map without getting overrun by a zerg having free control over the rest of it. Oh I didn't notice that. It's definitely a much shorter distance than on Heartbreak Ridge for instance. As far as I can see, it looks like mutalisks can go back and forth but the marine's can't, because not only is the distance too long, its also very slightly curved. Does a terran need to be able to transfer marines back and forth to beat mutalisks? Or is it possible to have each base be a seperate turtle? | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:46 scwizard wrote: Oh I didn't notice that. It's definitely a much shorter distance than on Heartbreak Ridge for instance. As far as I can see, it looks like mutalisks can go back and forth but the marine's can't, because not only is the distance too long, its also very slightly curved. Does a terran need to be able to transfer marines back and forth to beat mutalisks? Or is it possible to have each base be a seperate turtle? against 2hatch mutalisks, there's literally no way to have enough marines and turrets to cover both bases with static marines and turrets by the time the first mutalisks hit, so you have to move them around. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
The problem isn't the first six Mutalisks, it's the fact that Zerg will be continually adding more Mutalisks and poking around, dealing damage in any hole in your defense. As such, your defense needs to be somewhat united and you need to be able to merge and split armies as necessary. Further, if there is no possibility of a counter attack whatsoever, Zerg can invest everything into Mutalisks and expansions, giving him more Mutalisks than usual and compounding the issue. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:53 niteReloaded wrote: I don't see why not. This gas blocking thing.. it's not one of those hacks mapmakers use, it's a normal thing in BW. So if you can build a refinery there, the choke WILL reopen. (unless they made the gas unbuildable like someone mentioned) lol... if you could simply rebuild the gas then it wouldn't be that big of a deal if your opponent killed them. Map makers aren't that dumb. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
 UpMaGiC/BaBy/FlashEDIT: Err, Flash can probably handle things. The skill gap between the players is really wide in that case. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
I think wraith builds might be a popular option here. It gives you the mobility to take on mutalisks but I don't know how it would fair against hydra builds. It would put zerg on the defensive so you could both defend against mutas and take your nat, and then you might be able to stall for enough time to break out and cause some damage. The map is just so troublesome. Just the map and the initial short air distances reminded me a lot of Raid Assault so Terrans started using Wraiths on that map so I think that might have a chance of being the highest probability build on this map too. On April 20 2009 06:32 EtherealDeath wrote: wow the distance from main to nat on this map is just crazy, all on flat open ground. Whatever the solution is for terran/protoss I think will have to do something about the distance between nat and main, since if you could somehow secure your nat and main in a not too long period of time. FBH/Savior spoiler + Show Spoiler + note that FBH lost his nat, as his turrets were really spread out, trying to cover all that ground. It seemed though that the vulture timing allowed FBH to prevent the second assim from dying, so if there is a way to protect both main and nat, you could then transition to pure bionic and just dropship across the gap, if the zerg kills assims later. But again, how to secure both bases on that map.... I dunno, and I have no idea how you could 1 base on that map without getting overrun by a zerg having free control over the rest of it. More FBH/Savior spoilers + Show Spoiler + Yea, I was really impressed by how FBH played, and I'm not an FBH fan. He got beat really badly but his decision making was really not that bad for how his planned vulture harass didn't pan out and how he was locked into using slow golaiths to catch fast mutas over that large of a distance. That gol han bang was reallly his only chance | ||
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bioboyAT
Austria1763 Posts
On April 20 2009 06:05 Grobyc wrote: scwizard, you should stop posting in this thread and giving advice, because you aren't 100% sure what you are talking about. Trust the forum veterans, you ideology doesn't work the way you think it does. yeah it is just plain annoying the way he explain things, the way he thinks he is so damn right, the way he thinks he knows something about sc but actually has no clue at all and the way he writes. just annoying to discuss things with this guy. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
Hmm, how would things turn out of the terran mined out that patch earlier in the game, before zerg got mutas? How badly would it screw up timings? bioboyAT: sorry. I'm trying to change here. I hope this post doesn't give the impression that I think I know everything about sc. | ||
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s_86
United States191 Posts
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:36 s_86 wrote: What if in TvZ, terran were to FE and destroy his gas wall. Then straight to 2port valkyries for harrass and muta counter, while building up inf or mech and dropships. End game would be harassing expo's with dropships (with either inf or mech) guarded by valks. If you FE -> 2port, your valks won't come out in time for 2hatch mutas. You have to go 1base tech if you want to get valks out in time for 2hatch mutas. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:41 RifleCow wrote: Lol, scwizard, being able to engage in discussion on online forums and particularly on TL requires a degree of credibility behind the person whom is in the debate. When you thought that 8rax meant eight barracks to stop 2 hatch mutalisks you lost all your credibility, at this point attempting to engage in discussion is fruitless because no one will discuss with someone who can make that stupid of a mistake. Which is why I think at this point you should gracefully refrain from posting in this thread. Are questions like On April 20 2009 07:28 scwizard wrote: Hmm, how would things turn out of the terran mined out that patch earlier in the game, before zerg got mutas? How badly would it screw up timings? Allowed? | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:36 s_86 wrote: What if in TvZ, terran were to FE and destroy his gas wall. Then straight to 2port valkyries for harrass and muta counter, while building up inf or mech and dropships. End game would be harassing expo's with dropships (with either inf or mech) guarded by valks. The valks wouldn't make it in time. You couldn't destroy the assims against a 9 pool, and I dunno if you could destroy punctually against a 12 hatch 11 pool either. | ||
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s_86
United States191 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:43 koreasilver wrote: If you FE -> 2port, your valks won't come out in time for 2hatch mutas. You have to go 1base tech if you want to get valks out in time for 2hatch mutas. Well there would be a few turrets up beforehand. You can put more turrets than usual, cause you won't be building any more infantry (due to the walled entrance). If the zerg does infact go hydra/lurker to try to break through the two temples to your base, you would likely know before hand due to the lifted off barracks-scout, and prepare. | ||
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s_86
United States191 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:46 thunk wrote: The valks wouldn't make it in time. You couldn't destroy the assims against a 9 pool, and I dunno if you could destroy punctually against a 12 hatch 11 pool either. I figured a depot/rax wall while building a cc in base would prevent 9pool. Followed by moving out with the 6+ rines plus some scvs can break the gas-wall. Sorry, I should have clarified. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:48 s_86 wrote: Well there would be a few turrets up beforehand. You can put more turrets than usual, cause you won't be building any more infantry (due to the walled entrance). If the zerg does infact go hydra/lurker to try to break through the two temples to your base, you would likely know before hand due to the lifted off barracks-scout, and prepare. You still wouldn't be able to make it in time, pull out a stopwatch and try it yourself. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:48 s_86 wrote: Well there would be a few turrets up beforehand. You can put more turrets than usual, cause you won't be building any more infantry (due to the walled entrance). If the zerg does infact go hydra/lurker to try to break through the two temples to your base, you would likely know before hand due to the lifted off barracks-scout, and prepare. The thing is, you can't completely block off a committed mutalisk attack with just turrets. You won't have a meaningful amount of marines with stim and range, and you're counting on your valks, but if you FE, your valks are going to be really slow compared to the mutalisks and you won't have enough marines. That means you have to build an extreme number of turrets because you're trying to protect both bases, and the nat's min line is difficult to protect against mutalisks. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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s_86
United States191 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
I haven't seen the TvZ games trending toward one type of game or another but Up thinks that a 9 pool/drone scout isn't probable a BBS inside of their opponents base could also happen. 14 CC might work but it's a 2 player map with a medium rush distance and it might not even win you the game because of the map. | ||
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anTi_
United States499 Posts
If you let him kill your assimilators as terran the game is pretty much over, he can glitch lurkers over mineral patches and get behind your nat, continue pumping mutas, he can drop, go gaurdians, make a god damn overlord ring around your base with scourge sprinkled in, afk for 5 minutes, or do any of these in combination to win the game. If a terran wins a straight up game on this map on a progamer level I will be shocked. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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anTi_
United States499 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
Although I'm not sure if that would do much. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On April 19 2009 23:07 Mortician wrote: Middle/small size units can go between 2 assimilator Small units between geyser and assimilator None between 2 geysers Ghosts can. | ||
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kakisama
Canada82 Posts
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:41 RifleCow wrote: Lol, scwizard, being able to engage in discussion on online forums and particularly on TL requires a degree of credibility behind the person whom is in the debate. When you thought that 8rax meant eight barracks to stop 2 hatch mutalisks you lost all your credibility, at this point attempting to engage in discussion is fruitless because no one will discuss with someone who can make that stupid of a mistake. Which is why I think at this point you should gracefully refrain from posting in this thread. This, I honestly never thought I would see these kind of people at TL... | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
2 port valks made it in time vs 2 hatch mutas, just saying from last night's Jaedong vs Fantasy | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On April 20 2009 10:05 Avidkeystamper wrote: + Show Spoiler + 2 port valks made it in time vs 2 hatch mutas, just saying from last night's Jaedong vs Fantasy + Show Spoiler + He was running single port for a while iirc, and Ridge has a much longer travel distance | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On April 20 2009 10:16 Ecael wrote: + Show Spoiler + He was running single port for a while iirc, and Ridge has a much longer travel distance + Show Spoiler + Okay, the point is that it still makes it in time, and the distance isn't that much bigger, the valk was out at least a few seconds before the mutas came, which means they'll still make it in time vs 2hatch on this map. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 20 2009 10:18 Avidkeystamper wrote: + Show Spoiler + Okay, the point is that it still makes it in time, and the distance isn't that much bigger, the valk was out at least a few seconds before the mutas came, which means they'll still make it in time vs 2hatch on this map. + Show Spoiler + He barely made it, it was with mnm force. He's proposing rushing straight to 2 port valk, with little marines and no medic support. | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
On April 20 2009 07:45 scwizard wrote: Are questions like Allowed? Go ahead and ask questions. You might not get an answer, but nobody can reasonably get angry at you for asking a question. (also, I don't know the answer to your question there) | ||
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s_86
United States191 Posts
depot>rax (to make wall at main-nat choke)>depot>cc. Lift the rax and scout with it. Move out with a few scvs and marines and clear the lings at front (while taking the nat and a ref). Use one scv to hold position the assims choke while the marines break the assims. Then the usual fac>2port> armory+bay. Then ~3 turrets at main, and ~2 turrets at nat (plus the ~5 marines you had at start). The 6-9 mutas should arrive at your base before valks are made but after the turrets are up. They will spend some time trying to take out the turrets, but in about 10-15secs, the first 2 valks should be out, ready to guard either base (this timing is from my experience using valks). This followed by valk-escorted dropship harass (with either inf or mech in them). Of course, depending on what the lifted rax scouts, plans may have to change. (a hydra break for instance) | ||
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anTi_
United States499 Posts
Fantasy's first 2 valks did no damage, one of the main reasons why he won the game is because he was able to pressure jaedong with vults and killed like 20 drones over the course of 4 runbys, forced him to build 2 sunkens, and forced jaedong to back off with mutas for some precious seconds multiple times. heartbreak ridge's bases are much easier to defend as well, main has a wall behind the minerals, nat has a high ground behind it, and they are closer together in distance. I really don't think this will fly on BR, jaedong would have swallowed him up had he had the extra drones he had lost. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 20 2009 13:13 anTi_ wrote: + Show Spoiler + Fantasy's first 2 valks did no damage, one of the main reasons why he won the game is because he was able to pressure jaedong with vults and killed like 20 drones over the course of 4 runbys, forced him to build 2 sunkens, and forced jaedong to back off with mutas for some precious seconds multiple times. heartbreak ridge's bases are much easier to defend as well, main has a wall behind the minerals, nat has a high ground behind it, and they are closer together in distance. I really don't think this will fly on BR, jaedong would have swallowed him up had he had the extra drones he had lost. + Show Spoiler + Really, I think Jaedong lost because of his refusal to fully commit to a non-muta force. If he went hydra-lurk or even an Hydra-lurker muta ZvP-esque combo I think he would have won. But it's completely irrelevant to this discussion it's much easier to fend off muta harass on Heartbreak than it is on Battle Royal (sadly) because of the distance between the main and the nat. | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
and why does the OP have an X next to the name? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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GoAudio
Sweden400 Posts
On April 20 2009 04:57 scwizard wrote: When both asimilators are up, every unit can get through. When one is down only infantry can get through (the largest is hydraliks, vultures can't get through) When both are down, only ghosts can get through (zeglings can't) As for 9 pool into 2 hatch muta, I don't see why defending against 9 pool into 2 hatch muta tvz is so different than defending against 9 pool into 2 hatch muta on any other map. Sure the distances are smaller, but that's pretty much it. It's very hard to win though if they kill your assimilators, and you don't kill theirs, because then they have 4 gas and you can't effectively harass them. It seems like it's very important to kill their assimilators so that they can't get a drone into the middle without elaborate jumping or overlord transport. Especially "2nd thing to say" -.- Distance is !!!!!!!!!!!!!EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!! for 9pool -.-... Seriously you shuld go study starcraft for rea man..... Everybody knowns that 9pool is an VERY AGRESSIVE rush in ZvT -.- | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
too good | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On April 20 2009 14:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: rofl this thread got moved to strat forum where scwizard is strat forum banned too good ahahahaha. So that's what that red X is beside his icon? It means he is strat forum banned? | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
This could be fairly stupid, but perhaps you had an scv mine out the minerals to your temple, and then proceed to mine out the minerals at their temple. If the zerg doesn't see the missing minerals, you could sneak some vultures by, and with that huge natural/ main perhaps it could just slow them down enough? My only qualms about this are: 1. The traveling distance is so huge, for both the scv and vult. 2. would the 9 pool delay T enough, to where the vults would be out too late Really it is the only thing i can think of. Because frankly as soon as zerg gets those muta up, it looks like terran will simply be fighting a lost battle. I am so exited to see what kind of stratagy flash will pull off. Here is hoping that he wins! | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
I'm also slightly curious what could happen with a hidden 1 base fast boinic drop. Also 2 port wraith would be interesting to see. Honestly the biggest problem seems to be the wall at the nat. Too easy to kill off scvs there. It's clear that terrans need to deviate totally from the norm to grab wins on this map though. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On April 20 2009 16:08 StarBrift wrote: The fantasy build should be fairly effective on this map. Obviously there is a clear ZvT imbalance but the fantasy builds is created to counter 2 hatch muta. If you buy anough time with the vulture drop you will have valks in time for the mutas no matter the map. The problem is maintaining mutal defense and still moving out later in the game. But if the dropship survives the first drop he could ferry vultures out into the map later on and mine up the expansions to atleast delay the zerg economy slightly. That coupled with a nice timing attack might seal the deal. I'm also slightly curious what could happen with a hidden 1 base fast boinic drop. Also 2 port wraith would be interesting to see. Honestly the biggest problem seems to be the wall at the nat. Too easy to kill off scvs there. It's clear that terrans need to deviate totally from the norm to grab wins on this map though. No this isn't true at all. The fantasy build is designed to counter 3 hatch muta not 2 hatch, as the drop comes too late. Basically it auto loses versus 2 hatch muta as the osl finals showed. 9 pool -> 2 hatch muta -> mass expo seems very strong for Z. It not only blocks the rush, gives obsence map control, but also can seriously cripple the terran on harass alone. Here are some thoughts on that. Firstly, valkyries are probably going to be some kind of necessity. This is probably the most muta friendly map there is, at least if not worse than original blue storm. Unless its Flash the terran is going to get steamrolled vs 2 hatch muta if they don't defend with something more than m&m and turrets. Also, the short aerial distance makes mutas a viable threat for a long time (several vessels w/ irradiate). The two openings we've seen to be strong versus 2 hatch muta have been iloveoov's vult -> wraith -> expo -> valks -> m&m switch, and secondly the build fantasy showcased yesterday versus jaedong with expo -> vult/valk -> m&m (2 fact vult too but that's impossible). The problem is that vulture counter attacks are useless because there are no direct rush paths without killing two neutral buildings, ruling out the second option. In addition, the short air path ensures that the Zerg has a very good idea of Terran tech/strategy so something like fake mech isn't nearly as strong anymore. Ideas like hidden drop (lol) are completely out of the question, while 2 port wraith is again very risky because it's going up against 2 hatch muta and there is not much ground for overlords to cover to reach the terran base. So what can the terran use? I think the strongest build by far is the iloveoov build of fake mech. This is for several reasons. Firstly, I believe the zerg has to 9 pool in order to prevent any vulture shenanigans (otherwise they are in distinct danger from 2 fact vult with no ramp and must get hydra, which slows muta etc) and 14cc. This means that when the Zerg does go 2 hatch muta, their econ will be less. As I said above vulture harass is impossible if they kill the assimilators. However, that is not too important for the build. The key part is the fast wraith. The zerg economy is going to be weaker because of the 9 pool, and losing multiple overlords to the first wraith (which can easily get there with short distances) will set them back a lot. If they try to block this with hydras then the mutas will be substantially delayed and their economy will be shot. Whether the terran should try to float in the factory I'm not sure, but I guess it'll be viable as a threat so long as it doesn't force them to prematurely make hydras. Once the wraith slows the zerg down, there should be time to get valks/turrets up and start making m&m. With mutas under control, now the short distances can be turned around as that pre-hive push is going to hurt if the Terran goes for the nat. Going for the 3rd gas also seems to be strong since no expo is easily defendable, which really hurts the zerg if it goes to the midgame. So everything should be done to ensure that the Zerg does not enter the midgame with a massive advantage. If that is prevented, the Terran can either threaten the nat from close range or easily kill the 3rd base before defilers come out. It's messy, but I see nothing else noteworthy. Straight up mech is weak not only because of no vulture harass but furthermore because the map is huge. The zerg can just expo all around and the mech blob has to take forever moving to take out just one expo, while meanwhile devastating muta harass can be made all game. Think GGplay vs Flash on medusa + flash's main dies to mutas every other minute. | ||
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nataziel
Australia1455 Posts
You could even add a trigger so that they become buildable after so long, whatever is balanced. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
Mutas spawn at 6.10 (exactly that time in savior vs FBH which I analysed for this) Mutas arrive at terran main or nat at about 6.20-6.25 Dropship enters zerg base at 5.50 at latest First valkyrie is out at 6.10-6.15 and a goliath is also out by then By the time the zerg gets to the terran base another valkyrie and goliath will be building along with another factory which should be halfway done. The zerg can chose to sac all the drones in his main and commit the mutas right away for your base and he MIGHT succeed in killing you but if he doesnt then he will most likely lose. If he kills the vultures (which the terran will run around with to buy time) he will arrive at your base when 2 valks and possibly 3-4 gols are out and 2 facs are producing gols if not even later. He can take that with scourge and good micro but the terran can also defend it. Sure if you did 12 hatch into 2 hatch muta then you would get the mutas only a few seconds after the drop arrives. If you were reffering to the last game of the Jaedong vs Fantasy OSL finals as proof that the fantasy build doest work vs 2 hatch muta then you are partly right but in that game fantasy chose the marine followup with turrets instead of a second fac and faster valkyries. When Jaedong arrived at his base he could have had 2 goliaths and 2 valkyries instead of 1 valkyrie and 2 turrets (and a few measly marines that were malplaced). The third valkyrie and third gol would not be far away if he could survive the first mutal attack without getting both his valkyries sniped. Sure it's a close call for the terran but it is defendable, and more so with the mech followup imo. Atleast vs perfect mutal timing like Jaedongs. Remember, Jaedong did not do a pool first build in that game because it would have lost him the game. The 10 seconds later mutas would mean 10 less drones. If you're doing a 9pool (not overpool) into 2 hatch muta then your mutal tech will be delayed even further and you will not be able to bumrush the terran with a mutal rush and safely win the game. You probably can pull it off with spectacular micro but arriving against the sizeable units that terran will have at that time will not have you in an advantegous situation. The followup push from terran is another matter, It might be too hard to do and it might not. We haven't seen any games with terrans getting that far yet with mech so we can't really say for sure. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On April 20 2009 21:39 Loanshark wrote: Someone close this. Why should it be closed when we're discussing builds on the map? Isn't this what the strategy forum is for? Or should we create a new thread just because someone with low knowledge started it? | ||
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s_86
United States191 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I skimmed through this game. It seemed to me, baby's initial plan was to 1base straight to fac, (while breaking his assim wall). His plan was to mineral hop the mineral-temple left of Zero's nat, then build the Fac there and tank/siege/turret Zerg's nat from outside his wall. Unfortunately, Baby was not able to mineral hop the scv at 100gas, and he wasn't able to break his assims due to Zero going den>spire, so he changed his plan to 2port cloaked wraiths. (Well, this is what I assume). What do you guys think? Is this strat viable? Also, maybe for PvZ, what about... 1gate zealot to attack the assims while blocking its choke from lings coming in. then straight to core+forge>2stargate corsair, while you mineral hop a probe over the mineral-temple and bring it around to proxy cannon the zerg nat from behind the wall. I don't play toss, so I'm not sure about the timings of muta vs 1base 2stargate corsair, so maybe cannons in main will be required. Use corsairs for harass and to supply vision for the proxy cannons to hit over the zerg nat wall. This followed by expansion, etc. Unfortunately, I think the proxy cannons will only be able to hit the drones gathering minerals (not the gas, or the hatch). Again, this strat depends on what you scout, | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
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inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
zerg can play standard becsause of muta play though | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
It's slightly more zerg favored than raid assault 2 because of the breakable gysers, but it's slightly less because of one choke going into the natural. | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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aznanimedude
United States199 Posts
but the protoss person tried a Stork-esque forge+gateway+canon wall in the zerg's natural so the Zerg just build 6 hydras and cannon break'd ten rolled and protoss GG'd cuz he spent all that money on the wall which got broken so he had no units to defend | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 21 2009 11:04 crazie-penguin wrote: Actually isnt there a PvP on this map coming up... xD I think that was a typo, someone correct me if I'm wrong. On April 21 2009 11:43 aznanimedude wrote: there was a ZvP it was KTF temptest(P) vs' FOX's Roro(Z) but the protoss person tried a Stork-esque forge+gateway+canon wall in the zerg's natural so the Zerg just build 6 hydras and cannon break'd ten rolled and protoss GG'd cuz he spent all that money on the wall which got broken so he had no units to defend I think that might of worked if he didn't trap his probe actually. On April 21 2009 10:52 crazie-penguin wrote: i guess the map is just going through a phase like Monty Hall, then? They're probably gonna modify it mid season or w/e though. I dunno, they kept Raid Assault and that was ZvZ pretty much all the time. On April 21 2009 10:59 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Oh, my other question for anyone who feels up for it: why have we not seen any protosses on this map? I feel like it should have a Z>T>P>Z Balance, but clearly from the players the proteams are sending out, this isn't the case. The short rush distance means that 9 pool might (should?) prevent forge first, but either a 9/9 or 1 base tech into expand feels like it may work as well... Clearly because proteams don't think P's stand a chance on this map. I'm sure they want to send someone out with a higher probability build than a 9/9. The real question is why do they keep sending out T's when they're + Show Spoiler + winless so far | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
nataziel: I dunno if it would help because as Ver pointed out, the push distances still ridiculously long. I guess if you rebuilt them you could han bang push into the center, take that third, and try to end the game there but because you're basically forfeiting map control on the outskirts it really would be a hanbang and you'd have to end the game there. Upmagic versus whoever spoilers: + Show Spoiler + I think that Up showed that that FE into wraith is viable. Ironically, I think delaying that nat hatch hurt him because the muta came out that much faster (ridiculously quick lair) and he would have had a chance to follow up with 2 base, 2 port wraith, into which he could transfer into SK Terran and lots and lots of vessels. I kind of wonder what type of follow up he was planning. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7873 Posts
Remember Plasma which was the most obscenely ima map ever in TvZ: isn't it with Plasma that mech build and valkyries became fashionable? I don't think the mech revolution would have been so brutal without the experience of Plasma. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7873 Posts
On April 21 2009 19:09 stroggos wrote: I think a build that's similar to the fantasy build would be the way to go on this map. Go valkaries but without the money spent on vulture drop, have the money spent on another starport instead for extra valkaries or something. 2 port valkaries might be a good idea because they would think you are going 2 port wraith-if they scout it, which 2 hatch muta counters hard. Then they would waste money on ovie speed. just speculating here, and this is all assuming they do go 2 hatch muta. Useless theorycraftig is useless. Go try 2 ports on it and see if it works. I would say that it shouldn't work... | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On April 21 2009 19:31 Biff The Understudy wrote: Useless theorycraftig is useless. Go try 2 ports on it and see if it works. I would say that it shouldn't work... As much as I hate to say it, theorycrafting usually is useless over 80% of the time. The effectiveness of a strategy or build also depends on the player's execution, so a build that works perfectly in the hands of Bisu or Flash could completely flop in the hands of an unskilled player. Any way, I just hope they don't put this map into the next OSL or MSL. If the OSL keeps this map along with Tears of the Moon, it'd be like giving Jaedong a free Golden Mouse. I don't know why the maps these two seasons have been SO Zerg favored. It's not even just SLIGHTLY zerg favored, it's insanely zerg favored to the point that we have an ACE zerg beating a KTF Terran on it. I don't see how Protoss has any viable builds on this map against Zerg personally, because the rush distance is soooo short, not to mention the choke is way too big to wall off >_< | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
On April 21 2009 06:14 KlaCkoN wrote: After the _ridicolous_ t>>z the last seasons, seriously 2-3 zergs above 50% in zvt? This map is kind of refreshing. Exactly. Love this map. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
I guess you love ZvZ because that is the only games we will see soon on this map -_- | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On April 22 2009 04:45 koreasilver wrote: Because the TvT fest in proleagues the season before the race rule was implemented was so much better. Who said that I like TvT geez. I want balanced maps... | ||
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LaLaBye
United States90 Posts
>.< | ||
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s_86
United States191 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
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arcticStorm
United States295 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This game clearly show how imbalanced the map is for zerg. Unless terran does a timing push right before defiler tech get out then I don't see any way to win with mech on this map and bio is obviously really bad. oversky didn't even use mutas this game. He did hydralurk vs mech. That would only ever work on this map. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On April 22 2009 10:23 s_86 wrote: In TvZ, at the beginning, Terran can probably depot>rax> build one marine put 2 scvs at the assim choke, each attacking a separate assim, with a marine and a lifted off rax on top of the 2 scvs, so they can't be attacked. This would lead to a quicker FE, followed by wall in and whatever. I think I might have seen something similar attempted in one of the proleague matches, I forget. that's close to what Flash did except he used the SCVs more as a barrier against lings to protect marines I forget if he bothered with a wall-in afterwards though anyways, I think the map imbalance is too great to risk putting out a non-zerg player. the zerg player has to commit a huge blunder to lose against a non-zerg player imo | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On April 22 2009 16:47 udgnim wrote: that's close to what Flash did except he used the SCVs more as a barrier against lings to protect marines I forget if he bothered with a wall-in afterwards though anyways, I think the map imbalance is too great to risk putting out a non-zerg player. the zerg player has to commit a huge blunder to lose against a non-zerg player imo + Show Spoiler + Oversky committed to a huge blunder when he dropped Flashs main and got totally raped. DIdn't set him back one bit though since he had the entire map and there was no way for flash to stop him at that time. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On April 23 2009 03:49 StarBrift wrote: + Show Spoiler + Oversky committed to a huge blunder when he dropped Flashs main and got totally raped. DIdn't set him back one bit though since he had the entire map and there was no way for flash to stop him at that time. + Show Spoiler + It's tough to say that oversky is anywhere near flash though. Mechanically, flash was probably near perfect, and oversky's play was not at the same level at all. Flash underwent almost 0 harassment, so even with not being prepared for lurkers he should have been better than okay. Flash must have practiced for that map and mu as well, so i'm not sure what t can do against Z... | ||
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ClockworkBlues
Canada74 Posts
On April 20 2009 14:20 koreasilver wrote: It means he is banned from posting in the strategy forum. Oh damnit. All his posts (coupled with the irony of his name after reading said posts) were hilarious. ...And saying that hydra/lurk would work only against mech on BR is ridiculous. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On April 23 2009 13:38 GHOSTCLAW wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's tough to say that oversky is anywhere near flash though. Mechanically, flash was probably near perfect, and oversky's play was not at the same level at all. Flash underwent almost 0 harassment, so even with not being prepared for lurkers he should have been better than okay. Flash must have practiced for that map and mu as well, so i'm not sure what t can do against Z... I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. | ||
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R3condite
Korea (South)1541 Posts
On April 20 2009 05:06 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: 8rax is not a counter to 2hatch muta what hte fuck are you fucking on ROFL... omgsoh qft haha, made me LOL so hard... | ||
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threepool
United States150 Posts
On May 12 2009 16:14 R3condite wrote: ROFL... omgsoh qft haha, made me LOL so hard... Why did you bump this?! I just had to read the whole first page before I realized that I've seen this catastrophe of a thread before. | ||
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