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On April 20 2009 07:41 RifleCow wrote:
Lol, scwizard, being able to engage in discussion on online forums and particularly on TL requires a degree of credibility behind the person whom is in the debate. When you thought that 8rax meant eight barracks to stop 2 hatch mutalisks you lost all your credibility, at this point attempting to engage in discussion is fruitless because no one will discuss with someone who can make that stupid of a mistake. Which is why I think at this point you should gracefully refrain from posting in this thread.
This, I honestly never thought I would see these kind of people at TL...
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+ Show Spoiler +2 port valks made it in time vs 2 hatch mutas, just saying from last night's Jaedong vs Fantasy
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On April 20 2009 10:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:+ Show Spoiler +2 port valks made it in time vs 2 hatch mutas, just saying from last night's Jaedong vs Fantasy
+ Show Spoiler +He was running single port for a while iirc, and Ridge has a much longer travel distance
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On April 20 2009 10:16 Ecael wrote:+ Show Spoiler +He was running single port for a while iirc, and Ridge has a much longer travel distance
+ Show Spoiler +Okay, the point is that it still makes it in time, and the distance isn't that much bigger, the valk was out at least a few seconds before the mutas came, which means they'll still make it in time vs 2hatch on this map.
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On April 20 2009 10:18 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 10:16 Ecael wrote:On April 20 2009 10:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:+ Show Spoiler +2 port valks made it in time vs 2 hatch mutas, just saying from last night's Jaedong vs Fantasy + Show Spoiler +He was running single port for a while iirc, and Ridge has a much longer travel distance + Show Spoiler +Okay, the point is that it still makes it in time, and the distance isn't that much bigger, the valk was out at least a few seconds before the mutas came, which means they'll still make it in time vs 2hatch on this map.
+ Show Spoiler +
He barely made it, it was with mnm force. He's proposing rushing straight to 2 port valk, with little marines and no medic support.
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On April 20 2009 07:45 scwizard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 07:41 RifleCow wrote:
Lol, scwizard, being able to engage in discussion on online forums and particularly on TL requires a degree of credibility behind the person whom is in the debate. When you thought that 8rax meant eight barracks to stop 2 hatch mutalisks you lost all your credibility, at this point attempting to engage in discussion is fruitless because no one will discuss with someone who can make that stupid of a mistake. Which is why I think at this point you should gracefully refrain from posting in this thread. Are questions like Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 07:28 scwizard wrote:
Hmm, how would things turn out of the terran mined out that patch earlier in the game, before zerg got mutas? How badly would it screw up timings? Allowed?
Go ahead and ask questions. You might not get an answer, but nobody can reasonably get angry at you for asking a question. (also, I don't know the answer to your question there)
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To elaborate, what I proposed is...
depot>rax (to make wall at main-nat choke)>depot>cc.
Lift the rax and scout with it. Move out with a few scvs and marines and clear the lings at front (while taking the nat and a ref). Use one scv to hold position the assims choke while the marines break the assims.
Then the usual fac>2port> armory+bay.
Then ~3 turrets at main, and ~2 turrets at nat (plus the ~5 marines you had at start).
The 6-9 mutas should arrive at your base before valks are made but after the turrets are up. They will spend some time trying to take out the turrets, but in about 10-15secs, the first 2 valks should be out, ready to guard either base (this timing is from my experience using valks).
This followed by valk-escorted dropship harass (with either inf or mech in them).
Of course, depending on what the lifted rax scouts, plans may have to change. (a hydra break for instance)
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+ Show Spoiler +Fantasy's first 2 valks did no damage, one of the main reasons why he won the game is because he was able to pressure jaedong with vults and killed like 20 drones over the course of 4 runbys, forced him to build 2 sunkens, and forced jaedong to back off with mutas for some precious seconds multiple times. heartbreak ridge's bases are much easier to defend as well, main has a wall behind the minerals, nat has a high ground behind it, and they are closer together in distance. I really don't think this will fly on BR, jaedong would have swallowed him up had he had the extra drones he had lost.
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On April 20 2009 13:13 anTi_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Fantasy's first 2 valks did no damage, one of the main reasons why he won the game is because he was able to pressure jaedong with vults and killed like 20 drones over the course of 4 runbys, forced him to build 2 sunkens, and forced jaedong to back off with mutas for some precious seconds multiple times. heartbreak ridge's bases are much easier to defend as well, main has a wall behind the minerals, nat has a high ground behind it, and they are closer together in distance. I really don't think this will fly on BR, jaedong would have swallowed him up had he had the extra drones he had lost.
+ Show Spoiler +
Really, I think Jaedong lost because of his refusal to fully commit to a non-muta force. If he went hydra-lurk or even an Hydra-lurker muta ZvP-esque combo I think he would have won.
But it's completely irrelevant to this discussion it's much easier to fend off muta harass on Heartbreak than it is on Battle Royal (sadly) because of the distance between the main and the nat.
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5pool seems insanely imba on that map :p if it doesn't work just lock them in
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battle royal is zvz heaven, but some teams sent out non-Z players... that means that they have something up their sleeve. if raid assult has taught us anything, it's that short rush distances = good for mutas = zvz
and why does the OP have an X next to the name?
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It means he is banned from posting in the strategy forum.
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this is like a diff ver of raid assault. too early to said if is balance but i definitely anticipate more zvz on it
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Uhm maybe scv rushes are fun. Let's wait until we get boxer to play.
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On April 20 2009 04:57 scwizard wrote:
When both asimilators are up, every unit can get through.
When one is down only infantry can get through (the largest is hydraliks, vultures can't get through)
When both are down, only ghosts can get through (zeglings can't)
As for 9 pool into 2 hatch muta, I don't see why defending against 9 pool into 2 hatch muta tvz is so different than defending against 9 pool into 2 hatch muta on any other map. Sure the distances are smaller, but that's pretty much it.
It's very hard to win though if they kill your assimilators, and you don't kill theirs, because then they have 4 gas and you can't effectively harass them. It seems like it's very important to kill their assimilators so that they can't get a drone into the middle without elaborate jumping or overlord transport.
Especially "2nd thing to say" -.- Distance is !!!!!!!!!!!!!EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!! for 9pool -.-... Seriously you shuld go study starcraft for rea man..... Everybody knowns that 9pool is an VERY AGRESSIVE rush in ZvT -.-
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rofl this thread got moved to strat forum where scwizard is strat forum banned
too good
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To be fair, there was some decent discussion after he stopped posting.
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On April 20 2009 14:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
rofl this thread got moved to strat forum where scwizard is strat forum banned
too good
ahahahaha. So that's what that red X is beside his icon? It means he is strat forum banned?
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Does anyone know how many 'minerals' there are sitting by the temple?
This could be fairly stupid, but perhaps you had an scv mine out the minerals to your temple, and then proceed to mine out the minerals at their temple. If the zerg doesn't see the missing minerals, you could sneak some vultures by, and with that huge natural/ main perhaps it could just slow them down enough?
My only qualms about this are:
1. The traveling distance is so huge, for both the scv and vult.
2. would the 9 pool delay T enough, to where the vults would be out too late
Really it is the only thing i can think of. Because frankly as soon as zerg gets those muta up, it looks like terran will simply be fighting a lost battle.
I am so exited to see what kind of stratagy flash will pull off. Here is hoping that he wins!
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The fantasy build should be fairly effective on this map. Obviously there is a clear ZvT imbalance but the fantasy builds is created to counter 2 hatch muta. If you buy anough time with the vulture drop you will have valks in time for the mutas no matter the map. The problem is maintaining mutal defense and still moving out later in the game. But if the dropship survives the first drop he could ferry vultures out into the map later on and mine up the expansions to atleast delay the zerg economy slightly. That coupled with a nice timing attack might seal the deal.
I'm also slightly curious what could happen with a hidden 1 base fast boinic drop. Also 2 port wraith would be interesting to see.
Honestly the biggest problem seems to be the wall at the nat. Too easy to kill off scvs there. It's clear that terrans need to deviate totally from the norm to grab wins on this map though.
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EPT
