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United States2186 Posts
On April 20 2009 16:08 StarBrift wrote:
The fantasy build should be fairly effective on this map. Obviously there is a clear ZvT imbalance but the fantasy builds is created to counter 2 hatch muta. If you buy anough time with the vulture drop you will have valks in time for the mutas no matter the map. The problem is maintaining mutal defense and still moving out later in the game. But if the dropship survives the first drop he could ferry vultures out into the map later on and mine up the expansions to atleast delay the zerg economy slightly. That coupled with a nice timing attack might seal the deal.
I'm also slightly curious what could happen with a hidden 1 base fast boinic drop. Also 2 port wraith would be interesting to see.
Honestly the biggest problem seems to be the wall at the nat. Too easy to kill off scvs there. It's clear that terrans need to deviate totally from the norm to grab wins on this map though.
No this isn't true at all. The fantasy build is designed to counter 3 hatch muta not 2 hatch, as the drop comes too late. Basically it auto loses versus 2 hatch muta as the osl finals showed.
9 pool -> 2 hatch muta -> mass expo seems very strong for Z. It not only blocks the rush, gives obsence map control, but also can seriously cripple the terran on harass alone. Here are some thoughts on that.
Firstly, valkyries are probably going to be some kind of necessity. This is probably the most muta friendly map there is, at least if not worse than original blue storm. Unless its Flash the terran is going to get steamrolled vs 2 hatch muta if they don't defend with something more than m&m and turrets. Also, the short aerial distance makes mutas a viable threat for a long time (several vessels w/ irradiate).
The two openings we've seen to be strong versus 2 hatch muta have been iloveoov's vult -> wraith -> expo -> valks -> m&m switch, and secondly the build fantasy showcased yesterday versus jaedong with expo -> vult/valk -> m&m (2 fact vult too but that's impossible). The problem is that vulture counter attacks are useless because there are no direct rush paths without killing two neutral buildings, ruling out the second option. In addition, the short air path ensures that the Zerg has a very good idea of Terran tech/strategy so something like fake mech isn't nearly as strong anymore. Ideas like hidden drop (lol) are completely out of the question, while 2 port wraith is again very risky because it's going up against 2 hatch muta and there is not much ground for overlords to cover to reach the terran base.
So what can the terran use? I think the strongest build by far is the iloveoov build of fake mech. This is for several reasons. Firstly, I believe the zerg has to 9 pool in order to prevent any vulture shenanigans (otherwise they are in distinct danger from 2 fact vult with no ramp and must get hydra, which slows muta etc) and 14cc. This means that when the Zerg does go 2 hatch muta, their econ will be less. As I said above vulture harass is impossible if they kill the assimilators. However, that is not too important for the build. The key part is the fast wraith. The zerg economy is going to be weaker because of the 9 pool, and losing multiple overlords to the first wraith (which can easily get there with short distances) will set them back a lot. If they try to block this with hydras then the mutas will be substantially delayed and their economy will be shot. Whether the terran should try to float in the factory I'm not sure, but I guess it'll be viable as a threat so long as it doesn't force them to prematurely make hydras.
Once the wraith slows the zerg down, there should be time to get valks/turrets up and start making m&m. With mutas under control, now the short distances can be turned around as that pre-hive push is going to hurt if the Terran goes for the nat. Going for the 3rd gas also seems to be strong since no expo is easily defendable, which really hurts the zerg if it goes to the midgame. So everything should be done to ensure that the Zerg does not enter the midgame with a massive advantage. If that is prevented, the Terran can either threaten the nat from close range or easily kill the 3rd base before defilers come out.
It's messy, but I see nothing else noteworthy. Straight up mech is weak not only because of no vulture harass but furthermore because the map is huge. The zerg can just expo all around and the mech blob has to take forever moving to take out just one expo, while meanwhile devastating muta harass can be made all game. Think GGplay vs Flash on medusa + flash's main dies to mutas every other minute.
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What if the gysers could be rebuilt on? Early game you can still get locked in, but once you've got the minerals to Push out you can try rebuilding and pushing out from there instead of going the whole way around? I don't think it Really defeats the purpose, as early game you can't Really make strong pushes through mid if your opponent has locked you in without sacrificing production, but late game it becomes a viable way of pushing.
You could even add a trigger so that they become buildable after so long, whatever is balanced.
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Actually Ver you are right about the normaly 2 hatch muta vs fantasy build but not with pool first builds. These are the timings for overpool into 2 hatch muta vs fantasy build:
Mutas spawn at 6.10 (exactly that time in savior vs FBH which I analysed for this)
Mutas arrive at terran main or nat at about 6.20-6.25
Dropship enters zerg base at 5.50 at latest
First valkyrie is out at 6.10-6.15 and a goliath is also out by then
By the time the zerg gets to the terran base another valkyrie and goliath will be building along with another factory which should be halfway done. The zerg can chose to sac all the drones in his main and commit the mutas right away for your base and he MIGHT succeed in killing you but if he doesnt then he will most likely lose. If he kills the vultures (which the terran will run around with to buy time) he will arrive at your base when 2 valks and possibly 3-4 gols are out and 2 facs are producing gols if not even later. He can take that with scourge and good micro but the terran can also defend it. Sure if you did 12 hatch into 2 hatch muta then you would get the mutas only a few seconds after the drop arrives.
If you were reffering to the last game of the Jaedong vs Fantasy OSL finals as proof that the fantasy build doest work vs 2 hatch muta then you are partly right but in that game fantasy chose the marine followup with turrets instead of a second fac and faster valkyries. When Jaedong arrived at his base he could have had 2 goliaths and 2 valkyries instead of 1 valkyrie and 2 turrets (and a few measly marines that were malplaced). The third valkyrie and third gol would not be far away if he could survive the first mutal attack without getting both his valkyries sniped. Sure it's a close call for the terran but it is defendable, and more so with the mech followup imo. Atleast vs perfect mutal timing like Jaedongs. Remember, Jaedong did not do a pool first build in that game because it would have lost him the game. The 10 seconds later mutas would mean 10 less drones.
If you're doing a 9pool (not overpool) into 2 hatch muta then your mutal tech will be delayed even further and you will not be able to bumrush the terran with a mutal rush and safely win the game. You probably can pull it off with spectacular micro but arriving against the sizeable units that terran will have at that time will not have you in an advantegous situation.
The followup push from terran is another matter, It might be too hard to do and it might not. We haven't seen any games with terrans getting that far yet with mech so we can't really say for sure.
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On April 20 2009 21:39 Loanshark wrote:
Someone close this.
Why should it be closed when we're discussing builds on the map? Isn't this what the strategy forum is for? Or should we create a new thread just because someone with low knowledge started it?
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Spoilers to the baby v zero game
+ Show Spoiler +I skimmed through this game. It seemed to me, baby's initial plan was to 1base straight to fac, (while breaking his assim wall). His plan was to mineral hop the mineral-temple left of Zero's nat, then build the Fac there and tank/siege/turret Zerg's nat from outside his wall. Unfortunately, Baby was not able to mineral hop the scv at 100gas, and he wasn't able to break his assims due to Zero going den>spire, so he changed his plan to 2port cloaked wraiths. (Well, this is what I assume). What do you guys think? Is this strat viable?
Also, maybe for PvZ, what about...
1gate zealot to attack the assims while blocking its choke from lings coming in.
then straight to core+forge>2stargate corsair, while you mineral hop a probe over the mineral-temple and bring it around to proxy cannon the zerg nat from behind the wall. I don't play toss, so I'm not sure about the timings of muta vs 1base 2stargate corsair, so maybe cannons in main will be required. Use corsairs for harass and to supply vision for the proxy cannons to hit over the zerg nat wall. This followed by expansion, etc. Unfortunately, I think the proxy cannons will only be able to hit the drones gathering minerals (not the gas, or the hatch). Again, this strat depends on what you scout,
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After the _ridicolous_ t>>z the last seasons, seriously 2-3 zergs above 50% in zvt? This map is kind of refreshing. Pity it seems to be z>p as well though :/
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its zerg favored because they think they can bring over standard builds to this map, when it must be played diffeently. they simply havent found how yet..
zerg can play standard becsause of muta play though
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United States17042 Posts
I like the analysis Ver. Overall, I feel like this map is going to play out a lot like Raid Assault 2 back when it got reintroduced.
It's slightly more zerg favored than raid assault 2 because of the breakable gysers, but it's slightly less because of one choke going into the natural.
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i guess the map is just going through a phase like Monty Hall, then? They're probably gonna modify it mid season or w/e though.
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United States17042 Posts
Oh, my other question for anyone who feels up for it: why have we not seen any protosses on this map? I feel like it should have a Z>T>P>Z Balance, but clearly from the players the proteams are sending out, this isn't the case. The short rush distance means that 9 pool might (should?) prevent forge first, but either a 9/9 or 1 base tech into expand feels like it may work as well...
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Actually isnt there a PvP on this map coming up... xD
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there was a ZvP it was KTF temptest(P) vs' FOX's Roro(Z)
but the protoss person tried a Stork-esque forge+gateway+canon wall in the zerg's natural so the Zerg just build 6 hydras and cannon break'd ten rolled and protoss GG'd cuz he spent all that money on the wall which got broken so he had no units to defend
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I think there's a lot to say about this so I'm going to break it up into multiple posts for clarity:
On April 21 2009 11:04 crazie-penguin wrote:
Actually isnt there a PvP on this map coming up... xD
I think that was a typo, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
On April 21 2009 11:43 aznanimedude wrote:
there was a ZvP it was KTF temptest(P) vs' FOX's Roro(Z)
but the protoss person tried a Stork-esque forge+gateway+canon wall in the zerg's natural so the Zerg just build 6 hydras and cannon break'd ten rolled and protoss GG'd cuz he spent all that money on the wall which got broken so he had no units to defend
I think that might of worked if he didn't trap his probe actually.
On April 21 2009 10:52 crazie-penguin wrote:
i guess the map is just going through a phase like Monty Hall, then? They're probably gonna modify it mid season or w/e though.
I dunno, they kept Raid Assault and that was ZvZ pretty much all the time.
On April 21 2009 10:59 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
Oh, my other question for anyone who feels up for it: why have we not seen any protosses on this map? I feel like it should have a Z>T>P>Z Balance, but clearly from the players the proteams are sending out, this isn't the case. The short rush distance means that 9 pool might (should?) prevent forge first, but either a 9/9 or 1 base tech into expand feels like it may work as well...
Clearly because proteams don't think P's stand a chance on this map. I'm sure they want to send someone out with a higher probability build than a 9/9. The real question is why do they keep sending out T's when they're + Show Spoiler +
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I feel like the Fantasy build was designed to give a weak bionic player a chance in a Bo5 TvZ, but that's just me. It would be an interesting discussion in some other thread.
nataziel: I dunno if it would help because as Ver pointed out, the push distances still ridiculously long. I guess if you rebuilt them you could han bang push into the center, take that third, and try to end the game there but because you're basically forfeiting map control on the outskirts it really would be a hanbang and you'd have to end the game there.
Upmagic versus whoever spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +I think that Up showed that that FE into wraith is viable. Ironically, I think delaying that nat hatch hurt him because the muta came out that much faster (ridiculously quick lair) and he would have had a chance to follow up with 2 base, 2 port wraith, into which he could transfer into SK Terran and lots and lots of vessels. I kind of wonder what type of follow up he was planning.
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Btw I'd like to say that I think zergs are worth an imbalanced map even though I'm a terran player. We all remember how bad plasma was ZvT and while the new raid assault was zerg favored it wasn't quite as much as this map. I generally don't like imbalances but if zerg gets some more players on top levels because of this I think it's about time. There's been quite a shortage of zergs lately and the new kids on the block are excellent zerg players (hero, zero) and I hope they can grow into fierce top contestants.
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I don't know if this map is completly imba or produce any really good game, but I expect the gameplay to evolve a bit from Battle Royal.
Remember Plasma which was the most obscenely ima map ever in TvZ: isn't it with Plasma that mech build and valkyries became fashionable? I don't think the mech revolution would have been so brutal without the experience of Plasma.
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So basically its an islandmap where you can get lingrushed? That sounds balanced
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I think a build that's similar to the fantasy build would be the way to go on this map. Go valkaries but without the money spent on vulture drop, have the money spent on another starport instead for extra valkaries or something. 2 port valkaries might be a good idea because they would think you are going 2 port wraith-if they scout it, which 2 hatch muta counters hard. Then they would waste money on ovie speed. just speculating here, and this is all assuming they do go 2 hatch muta.
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On April 21 2009 19:09 stroggos wrote:
I think a build that's similar to the fantasy build would be the way to go on this map. Go valkaries but without the money spent on vulture drop, have the money spent on another starport instead for extra valkaries or something. 2 port valkaries might be a good idea because they would think you are going 2 port wraith-if they scout it, which 2 hatch muta counters hard. Then they would waste money on ovie speed. just speculating here, and this is all assuming they do go 2 hatch muta.
Useless theorycraftig is useless. Go try 2 ports on it and see if it works.
I would say that it shouldn't work...
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EPT
