EPT! [G] Beating the Ball [ZvT] - Page 2
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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Sigrun
United States1655 Posts
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
Finally, when you're flanking mid-game, you want to burrow your lurkers just a little closer than their max range, then run your lings past or preferably come from behind the marines, because theyre about to move back, and theyre most vulnerable then. Then unburrow and move all the lurks all the way up, and repeat, except burrow closer. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On January 22 2008 03:34 Raithed wrote: gorush used hydras vs nada. i wouldnt say hydras are useless. Bisu also used scouts on Hwasin and Nada! Thanks for the guide Z~L, I often have trouble fending off the Ball of Death and this looks pretty helpful  | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
The problem is with more lurkers than 12, you aren't really getting more benefits, you just have more room to screw up and lose some lurkers needlessly to tanks. Just because you have more lurkers doesn't change the fact that you still need to get in range with the army before you can do damage with lurker spines, and it also doesn't change the fact you don't need that many lurkers to effectively kill marines. The extra lurkers are just basically ending up being used as large-sized ground units that soak up damage, and they cost 125mins+125 gas each. Here's the problem: if a Terran is prepared for your lurkers, it's not going to matter how many you have, everytime you burrow he's just going to move back a bit and slowly pick them off, and eventually he will kill them all while you do little to no significant damage trying to inch up on him. This is why I think you shouldn't make so many lurkers at one time, and feel that sometimes it's wiser to leave your hydras unmorphed until you need more lurkers. Your hydras can still do damage, providing you're careful to keep them alive, and the good thing is they are more mobile than lurkers, not needing to burrow to do damage, so they can quickly snipe low count tanks and vessels.. and if you need more lurkers you can easily morph some more. So no, I don't think building hydras is "a waste" because you need them to make lurkers anyway. This is what I meant by saving gas. You can still have a very sizable zerg army without spending all of your gas on pure lurkers(5 hydras=1 lurker gas-wise), and having hydras still leaves the option open of morphing them into lurkers. I really feel that if you can't break the first terran ball with 8 or so lurkers, either your timing is off, not enough harass, you're not making enough lings, or something is really wrong with your flanking abilities.. and if you can't take out a terran ball with 12 lurkers (+other units) I'm willing to bet you're not going to take that ball out with 20 lurkers either.. unless the terran's a complete noob. Now, I'm not saying ZerG~LegenD is wrong or anything; I know that he's a very knowledgable and skilled zerg player from reading many of his previous posts and I also think this guide really is very well done and insightful. I just really think that making a boatload of lurkers isn't always the best choice, and that you should think twice before morphing those extra hydras into lurkers, and consider spending the gas on something else. More mutas for more harass/mobile support, some more hydras, I don't know maybe even a Queen haha.  Holy rofl crap that is a big shitload of text; rant end. edit: this obviously changes when you get defilers up, go ahead and go lurker wild, but I'm addressing my thoughts specifically to mid-game, before your macro+hive tech picks up. | ||
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
Also, interesting comments with some more details to learn from. Thank you! | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On January 22 2008 17:04 noobienoob wrote: This is what I meant by saving gas. You can still have a very sizable zerg army without spending all of your gas on pure lurkers(5 hydras=1 lurker gas-wise), and having hydras still leaves the option open of morphing them into lurkers. I really feel that if you can't break the first terran ball with 8 or so lurkers, either your timing is off, not enough harass, you're not making enough lings, or something is really wrong with your flanking abilities.. and if you can't take out a terran ball with 12 lurkers (+other units) I'm willing to bet you're not going to take that ball out with 20 lurkers either.. unless the terran's a complete noob. Now, I'm not saying ZerG~LegenD is wrong or anything; I know that he's a very knowledgable and skilled zerg player from reading many of his previous posts and I also think this guide really is very well done and insightful. I just really think that making a boatload of lurkers isn't always the best choice, and that you should think twice before morphing those extra hydras into lurkers, and consider spending the gas on something else. More mutas for more harass/mobile support, some more hydras, I don't know maybe even a Queen haha. Holy rofl crap that is a big shitload of text; rant end. edit: this obviously changes when you get defilers up, go ahead and go lurker wild, but I'm addressing my thoughts specifically to mid-game, before your macro+hive tech picks up. I think you might be missing the point of the post. The terran ball certainly manifests before you have twenty lurkers. By the time two control groups of lurkers are established you are solidly in hive or mid late stage. The terran ball is when you have lurkers and lings and the extra mutas from your harrass. That is why it is NOT optimal to pump more mutas since every muta = another lurker you could've made. Having hydras is only useful for hydralurker because hydras are a /mineral/ sink not a gas sink. The problem with tangling hydralinglurker or mutalinglurker is that mechanically it's very difficult to use. You stating that a terran will just retreat from any lurkers that borrow shows you're missing some key angles. For one, retreating is a tactic you encourage when you want to stall the ball. If you want to attack the ball, the terran shouldn't be able to retreat because your zerglings should be flanking his retreat. If you've ever established a flank you'll know a retreat does HUGE damage if your zerglings flank it properly. Also mutalisks doesn't really help against a terran retreat because mutalisk's accelerate/decelerate unless you spend your valuable micro time with them. Mutalisks are better used at this point after the flank is established if you want them for pure dps purposes. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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Simplistik
2140 Posts
Practice doesn't make perfect. It doesn't even always make people better. And then there isn't a lot of perfect around either. Still, good guide. | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On January 23 2008 02:05 KissBlade wrote: I understand that, and that's basically the point I'm trying to make; when you try to take on the terran ball, the main key is going to be how you engage the ball, not how many extra lurkers you have. Having more extra lurkers isn't going to help you have a better flank (unless you're prepared and always have them in the right place at the right time), the zerglings are the ones that are mobile and determine the success of your flank. You do bring up some very good points though, that hydras and mutas are a lot harder to use mechanically (compared to pressing burrow and watching marines get raped, lolI think you might be missing the point of the post. The terran ball certainly manifests before you have twenty lurkers. By the time two control groups of lurkers are established you are solidly in hive or mid late stage. The terran ball is when you have lurkers and lings and the extra mutas from your harrass. That is why it is NOT optimal to pump more mutas since every muta = another lurker you could've made. Having hydras is only useful for hydralurker because hydras are a /mineral/ sink not a gas sink. The problem with tangling hydralinglurker or mutalinglurker is that mechanically it's very difficult to use. You stating that a terran will just retreat from any lurkers that borrow shows you're missing some key angles. For one, retreating is a tactic you encourage when you want to stall the ball. If you want to attack the ball, the terran shouldn't be able to retreat because your zerglings should be flanking his retreat. If you've ever established a flank you'll know a retreat does HUGE damage if your zerglings flank it properly. Also mutalisks doesn't really help against a terran retreat because mutalisk's accelerate/decelerate unless you spend your valuable micro time with them. Mutalisks are better used at this point after the flank is established if you want them for pure dps purposes. ), and that hydras are a big mineral sink (therefore meaning less lings). I guess I overlooked that because I'm already used to controlling them without much problems.edit: On January 21 2008 19:24 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I think this says everything.. play the game the way you're most comfortable with. I just happen to be more comfortable using less lurkers and more of other units with my play style, but you might find pure lurk/ling better for you. Good luck everyone.Afterword If you think you've better ways to do things, then trust yourself, but at least try out these ones. Then you can stick to your ideas if you want to. Lessons learnt the hard way are the ones best remembered. "Practice makes perfect", words couldn't be more true. One can tell you what to do, one can give you a few hints about how to do it but one can never do it for you nor provide the exact experience needed to execute the task. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
since this guide is assuming a 3 hatch muta opening, when are good times to build evo chambers? i have a feeling that getting carapace before lurker tech is a bad choice since your lurks will come later. but then after, you need all the gas you can get for lurks. maybe around when hive starts, b/c you have 3 gas then? i always seem to be behind the terran upgradewise (i almost never have +1 around the time that this ball moves out), and i have a suspicion that carapace helps a shitload in keeping your flanks effective. | ||
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
On January 23 2008 04:00 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I'm just a poor foreigner... It's not like you didn't understand, right? I understand just letting you know | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4522 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On January 23 2008 07:12 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: since this guide is assuming a 3 hatch muta opening, when are good times to build evo chambers? i have a feeling that getting carapace before lurker tech is a bad choice since your lurks will come later. but then after, you need all the gas you can get for lurks. maybe around when hive starts, b/c you have 3 gas then? i always seem to be behind the terran upgradewise (i almost never have +1 around the time that this ball moves out), and i have a suspicion that carapace helps a shitload in keeping your flanks effective. I think that's just a matter of style. Personally I get my first evo at the same time as my qnest which means +1 carapace will finnish around 11mins, depending alittle on what happend in the early game and what map it is. Mostly I'm able to avoid fighting the ball before that. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
Will read when I get home | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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