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Allow me to introduce the Terran Ball, the fearsomest of mid-game attacks. This mighty force sweeps out shortly after the 10 minuits mark and tries to destroy everything we stand for: hatcheries, drones and extractors. It tries to vanquish our creep, tries to slay the Overmind itself. Stopped it must be, but by what and how?
Enter Siege's ball busting guide!
Unit combination
The best unit combination is a simple one known to almost everyone: as many lurkers as your gas allow, 2 scourges for every science vessel he has, possibly a few mutalisks if there's any left over from the harass (there better be!) and finally all spare larva should go into zerglings.
However, I can't help but notice how alot of people, especially on lower levels, include hydralisks in their army. Hydralisk are weak and expansive. A hydralisk deal less damage than a zergling pair, got slightly more hitpoints but costs approximately twice as much as a zergling egg. The only thing speaking in their advantage is their ranged attack. By the way, did I mention they need some costy upgrades to be used efficiently?
All that gas that could have gone into lurkers... What a waste.
Deleying the Battle
Most terrans never rienforce their push. Some of them have a hotkey setup set in stone that they won't change, and bringing unhotkeyed units might not appeal. Others fear the backstabb and therefore lock all possible rienforcements into bunkers, and some simply have never though of the possibility of rienforcing. After all, you rarely see someone else do it in replays.
No matter why they won't rienforce, it's a weakness which you can abuse. How? By deleying the battle. Your army grows stronger and stronger by every second that ticks by, his do not. The longer you wait before engaging him, the better are your chances of succefully devouring him. If you deley him long enought you might even get swarm or gaurdians in time to save the day! At least if you went for a quick hive.
This is a method that can be used to deley his army: First of all, burrow your lurkers outside his base – any choke works really, but the further away from your base it is, the more time you might gain.
This is how you do it! Not very hard, right? If you don't have an overlord on the cliff like I do (it's not even possible to have one on many maps) you'd better place 1-2 lings in front of your army so he doesn't catch you with your pants down (could get nasty).
Get ready for some (not so) sick micro once you spot him moving out. Wait for him to start sieging his tanks, then unburrow, run away and burrow just out of his tanks' range. Ideally you want to send in a pair of lings to draw fire, or the tanks might get a shot off before you're out of range.
Repeat...
... and again...
Now this is not a water-proof method. He might already be out in the field, then you'll have to abandon the idea, or start the deley further out in the field. He might also try to attack you with unsieged tanks, but that's fine.
You can react in two ways:
1) Ideally he wants to have his tanks sieged and hid behind a group of marines when encountering you. When he pushes out with unsieged tanks he uses the exact opposite formation; tanks in front and unsieged. Which means you've got an advantage if you engage, even if you do it from only one direction.
This is attacking becouse of weak enemy formation, the first of three situations when you want to engage.
However, this means that you have to keep all your support units hotkeyed and in-formation just behind your lurkers all the time. To avoid that we could asume that if he sieges the first time he'll continue to siege a few more times, and vice versa. Either we keep our support units in formation the first time and then just keep them clumped (a formation that requiers little to no attention to create and maintain) in case he tries to slowpush, or we keep them clumbed up from the start and in case he moves out unsieged we run back our lurkers a bit to gain time to set up the formation.
or
2) Abandon the idea of deleying him, you can use the landscape to your advantage just as well as time or formation – though using two obviously is surperior to only one.
Note that if you've got 12 lurker eggs morphing back at your base it's not a very good idéa to engage no matter what formation he's using, pick option 2. Also remember that losing units just so that you can get more time to build new ones is not a good idé, we're trying to gain time without losing more than a few zerglings.
Engaging
Okey, let's check the list!
You've deleyed him as long as you possibly could?
You've got ass few morphing eggs as possible?
You've forced him to a favourable battleground?
Hey wait! How do you do that, and what's a 'favourable battlegound'?
Where to pick your fights
The terran army will most likely try to sweep down upon any of our expansions if we let him wander about as he likes. If our remote expansion is rampless, that will most likely be his first choice; the natural appears to be harder to kill (rienforcements will arrive quicker and there's most likely sunkens in the choke), it's also easier to save the drones and it's easier to rebuild the natural than a remote expansion.
Now that we know where he'll most likely move we've to choose a location along that path that fits us. After all we're not some mind controling psychos whom can order him around *cough*protoss*cough*.
What we'll look for is this:
1: Inability for the terran army to run away from lurker spines
2: Possibility to flank
3: High ground
Thinking alittle about it we'll realise that the ultimate place is actually at the ramp to your remote expansion (if there's a ramp). If he walks up the ramp he can't run away back down.
The second best option is just outside our natural expansion. Your army is easily kept out in the field and your rienforcements naturally arrive in your natural so sandwhiching him is easy.
Engaging, attempt #2
Keep your army inbetween his army and your remote expansion, if he moves toward it you back away alittle (forcing him to slowpush as described above, if possible)
We'll be facing either of three scenarions:
1) He moves for the remote expansion. React like this: When you're finally sure he's going to strike the far-away base you move your army up the ramp and burrow your lurkers so that tanks placed just below the ramp can't attack you. Also bring whatever troops you've got in your natural (newly hatched ones ye know) and place them behind his army – make sure he doesn't see them, or even worse, can attack them.
If he tries to move up with his rines first you attack with your army in the expansion, he can't run away back, the ramp is too narrow, nor can he run forward; your army is blocking the way. Slaughter is inevitable. Meanwhile you bring your rienforcements and devour his tanks from behind.
If done perfectly it might look as beautifull as in this game (Orion vs Fantasy):
If he moves up his tanks first you'll engage anyway. His rines will hardly be able to shoot up the ramp and without tanks he can't kill many expansions...
This is attacking becouse of a terrain advantage, the second of the three situations.
If he abandon his attempts and moves for your natural instead you've to run down the ramp, then we'll treat it like if he'd gone for the natural first.
Or
2)He moves for the natural. React like this: Burrow the lurkers of your rienforcement army (the one you've been gathering in your nat) just youside your natural, this is to force one last siege and gain time to set up your other army in position. When you feel ready you come at him from both sides at the same time. To cordinate this is a hard task – you'll need some nice 123a4a5a6a7a skills - and you might not be able to do it flawlessly, not even close to, but practice makes perfect and beeing able to do this is a huge advantage. If succefull it might look something like this:
This is attacking becouse of a strong own formation, the last of the three situations.
or
3) You've got a remote expansion out in the open. Like this one:
Just like in all other scenarios it's important to attack from two different sides. I can't tell you much if you just came here hoping to learn how exactly how to do that flank, but this is the basics: You set up one army inbetween his army and the expo and sneak the other one around to come at him from the back. Have alittle patience, just couse one of his tanks can fire at your lings doesn't mean you can't wait alittle longer. Back away further and see if he unsieges. if he do, well, attack! If he does not, wait alittle longer - unless he can already fire at your expansion that is. Then you have no choice but going into the fight in slightly worse conditions, but still don't attack before your army is in position. You know, two wide fronts, everything hotkeyed. Make sure that there's no lings in the lurker hotkey, missing a burrow can be fatal - allthough alot of people, me included, select lurkers from the screen when burrowing rather than using the hotkey.
This...
...is not a good flank, just a wide front. Ideally you want two of those, one on eachside of his army. Actually you might want to use another unit combination than in that picture too...
This too is attacking becouse of a strong own formation, though it's harder to archieve it out in the open.
Small tips
Here's a few short tips that might help you save the day.
* Drops are annoying, especially if you have to micro a battle at the same time as those rines are killing your drones or your spawning pool. The best way to deal with drops is to never let him unload, but keeping scourges all around your bases is very expensive. Keep overlords spread out your bases at a perimeter instead. This will at least allow you to see the drop (if you got the attention to notice it that is) and 2 scrouges at every hatchery in an expansion. When you see the red dot on the minimap (use shift+tab to change the minmap colors so he's always red. it's easier to notice red dots, at least unless you're colorblind), double press the hotkey for the threatened hatchery, select the scourges and order them to attack the dropship. His drop ship will be heading for your expansion (where your scourges are) and your scourges will be heading for his dropship, collision course!
* Spread a few lings out around the map on critical positions, like outside his nat, outside your nat and outside the nat of your expansion(s). Also put a few in the middle of the map on positions that he's very likely to cross if he's heading for either of your bases. A few lings are cheap, intelligence is not. Alternative those lings can be replaced by overlords if there's cliffs or water to hide on – you really don't want to lose overlords.
* Get nydus channels asap when your hive finnishes. These are great help defending vs all kind of harass. You want one end in your natural and the other in your outlying expansion.
* If you want to burrow your lurkers from the screen instead of using the hotkey (makes sure no lurker is burrowed 2 miles away from the battle) you can do it like this: move your screen so that only lurkers in range of whatever they're supposed to fire at is visible at the screen, then ctrl-click on one and press "u".
* When you attack him, taking out his tanks is often enought to stall the push for the moment. However, if the battlefield is open and you haven't got a enough protection at your expansions he can still do some damage with only rines.
* When you hotkey two armies it might be a good idea (at least I think it is) to group them like this (or similar):
1: lurks in army 1
2: lings in army 1
3: lings in army 1
4: lurks in army 2
5: lings in army 2
6: lings in army 2
In this way it will be easier to keep track of which hotkey is located where on the map and setting up a good formation before the battle will be easier.
Afterword
If you think you've better ways to do things, then trust yourself, but at least try out these ones. Then you can stick to your ideas if you want to. Lessons learnt the hard way are the ones best remembered.
"Practice makes perfect", words couldn't be more true. One can tell you what to do, one can give you a few hints about how to do it but one can never do it for you nor provide the exact experience needed to execute the task.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Pretty good guide, the only thing i'd like to see are unit combo's for each possibility of the actual ball;
For example, you dismiss hydra in your opening paragraphs, yet (unless i am misinformed) Hydra/Lurk/(defiler) is the best counter to SK terran, but gets raped vs heavy tank terran.. also cases like 3factank (with 1/2 vessel) are hard to deal with due to the brute force of the seige.. iono perhaps unecessary  your call
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- make sure ur lings aren't around your lurkers when charging. it messes up the burrowing and the formation mess up will fuck you up big time. best to have lings coming in from the sides and the lurkers going straight in.
- group the lurkers into the ideal formation before sending them in. then when they burrow, micro your lurkers so they burrow next to eachother and micro to attack the marines where they are thickest.
- the terran attack is over when they are out of tanks. try to kill the tanks and plan out the attack before hand instead of just sending stuff in. savior does this alot. his lurkers always seem to be right on the side of the tank formation. then the tanks all die and the terran needs to retreat.
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is awesome32273 Posts
Skimmed trough it, looks pretty good!
Will read it all later
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Tx for the post. Certainly informative for a lowly noob like myself.
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On January 21 2008 20:00 doc.x wrote:
- the terran attack is over when they are out of tanks. try to kill the tanks and plan out the attack before hand instead of just sending stuff in. savior does this alot. his lurkers always seem to be right on the side of the tank formation. then the tanks all die and the terran needs to retreat.
I added a small note about that:
"* When you attack him, taking out his tanks is oftenly enought to stall the push for the moment. However, if the battlefield is open and you haven't got a enough protection at your expansions he can still do some damage with only rines."
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I'd personally never get more than 8~10 lurkers, imo it's just overkill. I'd rather make more muta/ling and focus on flanking properly/delaying with harass, or just save the gas for higher tech.
In my opinion, if that many lurkers aren't going to get the job done, anything above that is just going to melt the same way, and it's most likely because you engaged the ball incorrectly. Either that or he's gonna end up not engaging you and just irradiate/tank all your lurkers away.. :/
Don't go overboard with lurkers.. a good terran = you're just throwing away all your gas..
other than that, nice guide
edit: ling/lurk/hydra can be very effective despite what you might think; if you open lurk/ling (no muta), hydras are very effective at supporting your lurkers against early MM attacks; the dumb marine AI will often try to target the hydra because it's shooting at them and you can run the hydras back and the marines will get massacred by lurker spines. you can also use hydras in the back of your lurk/ling to snipe low count tanks and vessels, and just morph more lurkers when needed. the main damage will still come from the lurk/ling though of course..
you can also transition into hit & run ling/hydra/lurk drops, since the terran will probably have less defense around his base thinking he didn't have to worry about mutas. this transitions well into defilers or even guardians because you save lots of gas, and him seeing hydras sort of guarantees that he will go at least semi-tank heavy, which you can use to your advantage (abuse the fact that his vessels come later, and that he has less mobility because he's being reliant on tanks).
then again, if your flanking and/or micro is poop, forget everything i just said. 
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On January 21 2008 20:00 doc.x wrote:
- make sure ur lings aren't around your lurkers when charging. it messes up the burrowing and the formation mess up will fuck you up big time. best to have lings coming in from the sides and the lurkers going straight in.
i completely agree
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Against hardcore SK users, you can't rely on scourge forever to fend off his ever-growing Vessel Cloud Of Doom, and accordingly have to go hydra/lurker.
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You can use plague/hydra, but that's lategame, not ballmanagement.
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i read this on gosugamers but still a great article
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is awesome32273 Posts
Yeah, the problem with hydra builds in early game is that it needs to build up to be effective. That is why if you go hydra without something else to defend while you are getting upgrades + expansions setting up, you will die to a simple push with average control.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Good guide :D Touches on a lot of points that are often missed by lower level players trying to break midgame pushes.
I'll add it to the Recommended Threads.
On January 21 2008 22:56 noobienoob wrote:
I'd personally never get more than 8~10 lurkers, imo it's just overkill. I'd rather make more muta/ling and focus on flanking properly/delaying with harass, or just save the gas for higher tech.
In my opinion, if that many lurkers aren't going to get the job done, anything above that is just going to melt the same way, and it's most likely because you engaged the ball incorrectly. Either that or he's gonna end up not engaging you and just irradiate/tank all your lurkers away.. :/
Don't go overboard with lurkers.. a good terran = you're just throwing away all your gas..
I believe this is terrible advice. Yes, if you're sacrificing Hive tech and upgrades for more Lurkers, then it's a mistake. But spending leftover gas on more Lurkers is hardly a waste. If you can flank properly, you want as many units as possible (Lurkers and Zerglings) when you finally decide to engage. It's never a bad time to have more Lurkers, and saving gas for Hive tech is a good way to die before you get there.
edit: ling/lurk/hydra can be very effective despite what you might think; if you open lurk/ling (no muta), hydras are very effective at supporting your lurkers against early MM attacks; the dumb marine AI will often try to target the hydra because it's shooting at them and you can run the hydras back and the marines will get massacred by lurker spines. you can also use hydras in the back of your lurk/ling to snipe low count tanks and vessels, and just morph more lurkers when needed. the main damage will still come from the lurk/ling though of course..
Zerg~Legend made a generalization - he said that in most situations LurkerLing is stronger than HydraLurker, which is true. Certainly there are situations where HydraLurker are viable (and stronger), but there's really no point in talking about the second-best strategy.
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On January 22 2008 01:25 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2008 22:56 noobienoob wrote:
I'd personally never get more than 8~10 lurkers, imo it's just overkill. I'd rather make more muta/ling and focus on flanking properly/delaying with harass, or just save the gas for higher tech.
In my opinion, if that many lurkers aren't going to get the job done, anything above that is just going to melt the same way, and it's most likely because you engaged the ball incorrectly. Either that or he's gonna end up not engaging you and just irradiate/tank all your lurkers away.. :/
Don't go overboard with lurkers.. a good terran = you're just throwing away all your gas..
I believe this is terrible advice. Yes, if you're sacrificing Hive tech and upgrades for more Lurkers, then it's a mistake. But spending leftover gas on more Lurkers is hardly a waste. If you can flank properly, you want as many units as possible (Lurkers and Zerglings) when you finally decide to engage. It's never a bad time to have more Lurkers, and saving gas for Hive tech is a good way to die before you get there. Iono I'd rather spend that extra gas on more mutas because they can stack over the lurk/ling and therefore give more DPS. That and I'm more comfortable with muta harass and micro and feel at a certain point extra lurkers don't do anything anymore (remember I already have 8~10 lurkers). I guess it's just preference on where you want to spend the extra gas though.
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is awesome32273 Posts
Mutalisks are innefective once marine mass reachs a certain point and starports start blinking for some minutes. The only way for mutalisks to be effective against a m&m is to get there before "lategame" tech comes to play (which is not lategame, since terran tech in TvZ lategame = midgame) or if you keep his marine numbers low.
There's a reason progamers drop the mutalisks once the terran gets a vessels (even with their control to take irradiated mutas away) + has a nice marine count.
When you engage with mutas + lurker + ling vs a m&m push you are actually sacrificing mutalisks there. Cost wise its horrible to build mutalisks to draw fire and get some damage; you only do it because you had them left from your harrass to stop a push and control a certain area/delay a push so your tech kicks in, and you should never do that if you intend to go guardians of course.
Hell you even see zerg players not using them for drawing fire but rather for scouting + delaying expos + catching drops.
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On January 22 2008 01:49 IntoTheWow wrote:
Hell you even see zerg players not using them for drawing fire but rather for scouting + delaying expos + catching drops. Exactly.
but yeah, I guess I'm wrong and the Terrans I've played against probably don't have the best timing or response vs. my harass. It's just I've seen many games (progames and replays) where players make an obscene amount (imo) of lurkers (like 20+) and because of the Terrans play, the zerg player isn't able to coordinate his attack well or the lurkers end up just dying to irradiate/tanks because he wasn't able to make an effective move, so it led me to believe that more ling+muta with just enough lurkers to kill the marines was more effective.
I guess my play depends too heavily on the mutalisk harass and delaying (I'm a muta kind of guy ) though, and is more of an all-in oriented style of playing. I guess I'd probably not do well against a Terran with very good timing. Thanks for both of your insights.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On January 22 2008 02:12 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2008 01:49 IntoTheWow wrote:
Hell you even see zerg players not using them for drawing fire but rather for scouting + delaying expos + catching drops. Exactly. but yeah, I guess I'm wrong and the Terrans I've played against probably don't have the best timing or response vs. my harass. It's just I've seen many games (progames and replays) where players make an obscene amount (imo) of lurkers (like 20+) and because of the Terrans play, the zerg player isn't able to coordinate his attack well or the lurkers end up just dying to irradiate/tanks because he wasn't able to make an effective move, so it led me to believe that more ling+muta with just enough lurkers to kill the marines was more effective.
That's true, but it's a flaw in mechanics, not strategy. Those are the kinds of people who tell Zergs to 12 Pool against Terran because they can't stop Bunker rushes.
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United States1654 Posts
Thanks! This'll help a lot!
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gorush used hydras vs nada. i wouldnt say hydras are useless.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On January 22 2008 03:34 Raithed wrote:
gorush used hydras vs nada. i wouldnt say hydras are useless.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
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United States5262 Posts
Wunderful. Magnifique. I want to switch to Zerg after reading this guide. =]
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United States1654 Posts
Hydras by themselves are pretty useless against the Terran Ball... which is what this guide is for.
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Nice read. One thing that I would have added is that you don't want to let the Terran waltz into the natural below your ramped expansion, set up, and slow push in. The choke makes it a not-so-great spot to flank him, and he's all set up in formation. The best time to flank him is when hes on his way moving there, semi-strung out, unsieged. Even if you dont kill everything, you delay it greatly.
Finally, when you're flanking mid-game, you want to burrow your lurkers just a little closer than their max range, then run your lings past or preferably come from behind the marines, because theyre about to move back, and theyre most vulnerable then. Then unburrow and move all the lurks all the way up, and repeat, except burrow closer.
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On January 22 2008 03:34 Raithed wrote:
gorush used hydras vs nada. i wouldnt say hydras are useless.
Bisu also used scouts on Hwasin and Nada!
Thanks for the guide Z~L, I often have trouble fending off the Ball of Death and this looks pretty helpful
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After thinking it over, I still think going over 10-12 lurkers to break a terran ball is going overboard, and that leaving them unmorphed as hydras would be a smarter thing to do in certain situations. Think about it.. the main reason you make lurkers is to destroy marines. You only need let's say three lurkers to kill marines in one volley, assuming the terran has 1 defense upgrades to your 0 attack. That means like 12 lurkers will probably be overkilling marines several times over; It's still good to have ~12 though because it leaves headroom for you to inch up against the terran army by unburrowing half and working your way in over and over, as well as covering a much wider area of effect.
The problem is with more lurkers than 12, you aren't really getting more benefits, you just have more room to screw up and lose some lurkers needlessly to tanks. Just because you have more lurkers doesn't change the fact that you still need to get in range with the army before you can do damage with lurker spines, and it also doesn't change the fact you don't need that many lurkers to effectively kill marines. The extra lurkers are just basically ending up being used as large-sized ground units that soak up damage, and they cost 125mins+125 gas each. Here's the problem: if a Terran is prepared for your lurkers, it's not going to matter how many you have, everytime you burrow he's just going to move back a bit and slowly pick them off, and eventually he will kill them all while you do little to no significant damage trying to inch up on him.
This is why I think you shouldn't make so many lurkers at one time, and
feel that sometimes it's wiser to leave your hydras unmorphed until you need more lurkers. Your hydras can still do damage, providing you're careful to keep them alive, and the good thing is they are more mobile than lurkers, not needing to burrow to do damage, so they can quickly snipe low count tanks and vessels.. and if you need more lurkers you can easily morph some more. So no, I don't think building hydras is "a waste" because you need them to make lurkers anyway.
This is what I meant by saving gas. You can still have a very sizable zerg army without spending all of your gas on pure lurkers(5 hydras=1 lurker gas-wise), and having hydras still leaves the option open of morphing them into lurkers. I really feel that if you can't break the first terran ball with 8 or so lurkers, either your timing is off, not enough harass, you're not making enough lings, or something is really wrong with your flanking abilities.. and if you can't take out a terran ball with 12 lurkers (+other units) I'm willing to bet you're not going to take that ball out with 20 lurkers either.. unless the terran's a complete noob.
Now, I'm not saying ZerG~LegenD is wrong or anything; I know that he's a very knowledgable and skilled zerg player from reading many of his previous posts and I also think this guide really is very well done and insightful. I just really think that making a boatload of lurkers isn't always the best choice, and that you should think twice before morphing those extra hydras into lurkers, and consider spending the gas on something else. More mutas for more harass/mobile support, some more hydras, I don't know maybe even a Queen haha.
Holy rofl crap that is a big shitload of text; rant end.
edit: this obviously changes when you get defilers up, go ahead and go lurker wild, but I'm addressing my thoughts specifically to mid-game, before your macro+hive tech picks up.
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Thanks for the guide, I am going to practice this stuff now. I've always played too cautiously against terran because I didn't know how to engage their army once it reached the right size/make-up. This should give me the tools necessary to increase my zvt substantially.
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nice guide for a player of my skill level (low).
Also, interesting comments with some more details to learn from.
Thank you!
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On January 22 2008 17:04 noobienoob wrote:This is what I meant by saving gas. You can still have a very sizable zerg army without spending all of your gas on pure lurkers(5 hydras=1 lurker gas-wise), and having hydras still leaves the option open of morphing them into lurkers. I really feel that if you can't break the first terran ball with 8 or so lurkers, either your timing is off, not enough harass, you're not making enough lings, or something is really wrong with your flanking abilities.. and if you can't take out a terran ball with 12 lurkers (+other units) I'm willing to bet you're not going to take that ball out with 20 lurkers either.. unless the terran's a complete noob. Now, I'm not saying ZerG~LegenD is wrong or anything; I know that he's a very knowledgable and skilled zerg player from reading many of his previous posts and I also think this guide really is very well done and insightful. I just really think that making a boatload of lurkers isn't always the best choice, and that you should think twice before morphing those extra hydras into lurkers, and consider spending the gas on something else. More mutas for more harass/mobile support, some more hydras, I don't know maybe even a Queen haha. Holy rofl crap that is a big shitload of text; rant end. edit: this obviously changes when you get defilers up, go ahead and go lurker wild, but I'm addressing my thoughts specifically to mid-game, before your macro+hive tech picks up.
I think you might be missing the point of the post. The terran ball certainly manifests before you have twenty lurkers. By the time two control groups of lurkers are established you are solidly in hive or mid late stage. The terran ball is when you have lurkers and lings and the extra mutas from your harrass. That is why it is NOT optimal to pump more mutas since every muta = another lurker you could've made. Having hydras is only useful for hydralurker because hydras are a /mineral/ sink not a gas sink. The problem with tangling hydralinglurker or mutalinglurker is that mechanically it's very difficult to use. You stating that a terran will just retreat from any lurkers that borrow shows you're missing some key angles. For one, retreating is a tactic you encourage when you want to stall the ball. If you want to attack the ball, the terran shouldn't be able to retreat because your zerglings should be flanking his retreat. If you've ever established a flank you'll know a retreat does HUGE damage if your zerglings flank it properly. Also mutalisks doesn't really help against a terran retreat because mutalisk's accelerate/decelerate unless you spend your valuable micro time with them. Mutalisks are better used at this point after the flank is established if you want them for pure dps purposes.
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Pretty good guide, I'd recommend using spellcheck though. "deley."
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Few spelling errors. Deleying=Delaying.
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I'm just a poor foreigner... It's not like you didn't understand, right?
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Nice guide, but I have to disagree in one point:
Practice doesn't make perfect. It doesn't even always make people better. And then there isn't a lot of perfect around either.
Still, good guide.
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On January 23 2008 02:05 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2008 17:04 noobienoob wrote:This is what I meant by saving gas. You can still have a very sizable zerg army without spending all of your gas on pure lurkers(5 hydras=1 lurker gas-wise), and having hydras still leaves the option open of morphing them into lurkers. I really feel that if you can't break the first terran ball with 8 or so lurkers, either your timing is off, not enough harass, you're not making enough lings, or something is really wrong with your flanking abilities.. and if you can't take out a terran ball with 12 lurkers (+other units) I'm willing to bet you're not going to take that ball out with 20 lurkers either.. unless the terran's a complete noob. Now, I'm not saying ZerG~LegenD is wrong or anything; I know that he's a very knowledgable and skilled zerg player from reading many of his previous posts and I also think this guide really is very well done and insightful. I just really think that making a boatload of lurkers isn't always the best choice, and that you should think twice before morphing those extra hydras into lurkers, and consider spending the gas on something else. More mutas for more harass/mobile support, some more hydras, I don't know maybe even a Queen haha. Holy rofl crap that is a big shitload of text; rant end. edit: this obviously changes when you get defilers up, go ahead and go lurker wild, but I'm addressing my thoughts specifically to mid-game, before your macro+hive tech picks up. I think you might be missing the point of the post. The terran ball certainly manifests before you have twenty lurkers. By the time two control groups of lurkers are established you are solidly in hive or mid late stage. The terran ball is when you have lurkers and lings and the extra mutas from your harrass. That is why it is NOT optimal to pump more mutas since every muta = another lurker you could've made. Having hydras is only useful for hydralurker because hydras are a /mineral/ sink not a gas sink. The problem with tangling hydralinglurker or mutalinglurker is that mechanically it's very difficult to use. You stating that a terran will just retreat from any lurkers that borrow shows you're missing some key angles. For one, retreating is a tactic you encourage when you want to stall the ball. If you want to attack the ball, the terran shouldn't be able to retreat because your zerglings should be flanking his retreat. If you've ever established a flank you'll know a retreat does HUGE damage if your zerglings flank it properly. Also mutalisks doesn't really help against a terran retreat because mutalisk's accelerate/decelerate unless you spend your valuable micro time with them. Mutalisks are better used at this point after the flank is established if you want them for pure dps purposes. I understand that, and that's basically the point I'm trying to make; when you try to take on the terran ball, the main key is going to be how you engage the ball, not how many extra lurkers you have. Having more extra lurkers isn't going to help you have a better flank (unless you're prepared and always have them in the right place at the right time), the zerglings are the ones that are mobile and determine the success of your flank. You do bring up some very good points though, that hydras and mutas are a lot harder to use mechanically (compared to pressing burrow and watching marines get raped, lol), and that hydras are a big mineral sink (therefore meaning less lings). I guess I overlooked that because I'm already used to controlling them without much problems.
edit:On January 21 2008 19:24 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Afterword
If you think you've better ways to do things, then trust yourself, but at least try out these ones. Then you can stick to your ideas if you want to. Lessons learnt the hard way are the ones best remembered.
"Practice makes perfect", words couldn't be more true. One can tell you what to do, one can give you a few hints about how to do it but one can never do it for you nor provide the exact experience needed to execute the task. I think this says everything.. play the game the way you're most comfortable with. I just happen to be more comfortable using less lurkers and more of other units with my play style, but you might find pure lurk/ling better for you. Good luck everyone.
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Excellent guide, very insightful and some tips I will definitely use. I have a couple question that i don't think are too out of place:
since this guide is assuming a 3 hatch muta opening, when are good times to build evo chambers? i have a feeling that getting carapace before lurker tech is a bad choice since your lurks will come later. but then after, you need all the gas you can get for lurks. maybe around when hive starts, b/c you have 3 gas then? i always seem to be behind the terran upgradewise (i almost never have +1 around the time that this ball moves out), and i have a suspicion that carapace helps a shitload in keeping your flanks effective.
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On January 23 2008 04:00 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I'm just a poor foreigner... It's not like you didn't understand, right?
I understand just letting you know
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Netherlands4511 Posts
while you stall 'the ball', be very wary of dropships!
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On January 23 2008 07:12 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
since this guide is assuming a 3 hatch muta opening, when are good times to build evo chambers? i have a feeling that getting carapace before lurker tech is a bad choice since your lurks will come later. but then after, you need all the gas you can get for lurks. maybe around when hive starts, b/c you have 3 gas then? i always seem to be behind the terran upgradewise (i almost never have +1 around the time that this ball moves out), and i have a suspicion that carapace helps a shitload in keeping your flanks effective.
I think that's just a matter of style. Personally I get my first evo at the same time as my qnest which means +1 carapace will finnish around 11mins, depending alittle on what happend in the early game and what map it is. Mostly I'm able to avoid fighting the ball before that.
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looks great with a great discussion.
Will read when I get home
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I browsed through it and it seems like a very good guide, nice job zerg legend
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Elaborate more on drops. Personally I never break the ball, I just let him be and gay all my units into overlords : )
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Wow this guide really helped me a lot ZvT; i usually just win by killing off bunker rushes, or just multi task/multi task+ ling harass; and i feel this guide can also help more people, than it already has.
+ Show Spoiler +and controversy(everyone just kinda agreed after chill gave his thumbs up)I am guilty... 
Any decent terran usually just rolls me over, but delaying terran army with lurkers outside his ramp works great, and when attacking just to get his tanks; with lurkers, that's a tip i'll think about everytime engaging.
I even did hold lurker once! it was so cool, terran just went alt + qq :D
So.. *bumping* this thread D:
+ Show Spoiler +Warning: The last post in this thread is over two months old.
If you bump this, you better have a good reason.
I know it's a ZvT anti ball guide, but what better way to beat the ball, by setting yourself up for macro.
+ Show Spoiler +(credited to http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/members/Lord_of_Chaos) for this explanation; which i use myself now. "I tend to add a hydra den somewhere between my lair being halfway done or exactly when it's done. Then trying to hide the spire as good as possible. It very rarely succeeds in making a T believe I go lurks, as at the least me saving up larvae usually gives it away if he doesn't see my spire. However, sometimes it works and that's always very fun More importantly it enables me to get lurkers at the very first 200 gas after I made my muts. Often I can contain a terran with first mutalisk harassment, and then prolong the contain by burrowing lurkers outside his base without ever letting him out. Second, I don't expand with my fourth hatchery. I almost always put it in my main. Why? It's because often good terrans will be able to amass enough rines to both defend and attack and take out an expo without me being able to do anything. The fact that I don't expand also makes the T less prone to move out with a marine force and makes me even more likely to be able to contain him with a lurker force. Then I also tend to stay quite conservative in my mutalisk harass. This is because as long as my mutas are still alive I don't really need to deal much damage to keep in his base. I just need to remind him that I got 9 mutas flying around a little now and then to stop him from moving out. The idea of the mutas is, in my strategy, to keep him in his base until I get my lurkers up to contain him. Having 9 mutalisks alive later in the game is VERY good against drops and to deal damage to rines running from lurker spines. I don't know my exact BO as far as you wrote your down, but I'm pretty sure I take my second gas earlier than you to enable faster lurk tech after the mutas. I also do my 3rd hatch at 14 or 15 instead of 13. First gas goes down right after I've started my first two lings (to chase off scout and idle outside his ramp)."
;edit; How does this have 4k+ views and only 2pages of comments.
Well shit. Everyone's seen this then
+ Show Spoiler +ahh im a bad bad bumper 
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On June 08 2008 22:05 HeavOnEarth wrote:Wow this guide really helped me a lot ZvT; i usually just win by killing off bunker rushes, or just multi task/multi task+ ling harass; and i feel this guide can also help more people, than it already has. + Show Spoiler +and controversy(everyone just kinda agreed after chill gave his thumbs up)I am guilty... Any decent terran usually just rolls me over, but delaying terran army with lurkers outside his ramp works great, and when attacking just to get his tanks; with lurkers, that's a tip i'll think about everytime engaging. I even did hold lurker once! it was so cool, terran just went alt + qq :D So.. *bumping* this thread D: + Show Spoiler +Warning: The last post in this thread is over two months old.
If you bump this, you better have a good reason. I know it's a ZvT anti ball guide, but what better way to beat the ball, by setting yourself up for macro. + Show Spoiler +(credited to http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/members/Lord_of_Chaos) for this explanation; which i use myself now. "I tend to add a hydra den somewhere between my lair being halfway done or exactly when it's done. Then trying to hide the spire as good as possible. It very rarely succeeds in making a T believe I go lurks, as at the least me saving up larvae usually gives it away if he doesn't see my spire. However, sometimes it works and that's always very fun More importantly it enables me to get lurkers at the very first 200 gas after I made my muts. Often I can contain a terran with first mutalisk harassment, and then prolong the contain by burrowing lurkers outside his base without ever letting him out. Second, I don't expand with my fourth hatchery. I almost always put it in my main. Why? It's because often good terrans will be able to amass enough rines to both defend and attack and take out an expo without me being able to do anything. The fact that I don't expand also makes the T less prone to move out with a marine force and makes me even more likely to be able to contain him with a lurker force. Then I also tend to stay quite conservative in my mutalisk harass. This is because as long as my mutas are still alive I don't really need to deal much damage to keep in his base. I just need to remind him that I got 9 mutas flying around a little now and then to stop him from moving out. The idea of the mutas is, in my strategy, to keep him in his base until I get my lurkers up to contain him. Having 9 mutalisks alive later in the game is VERY good against drops and to deal damage to rines running from lurker spines. I don't know my exact BO as far as you wrote your down, but I'm pretty sure I take my second gas earlier than you to enable faster lurk tech after the mutas. I also do my 3rd hatch at 14 or 15 instead of 13. First gas goes down right after I've started my first two lings (to chase off scout and idle outside his ramp)." ;edit; How does this have 4k+ views and only 2pages of comments. Well shit. Everyone's seen this then + Show Spoiler +ahh im a bad bad bumper
:o #1 USA says you helped him!!
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