Every Zerg pro boosts. There's a simple reason: it's not possible to hit 2:48 Lair on left side minerals without boosting because the #8 patch mines super slow. If you don't hit the exact timing, it slows down your larva, which means you get 7 mutas slower and the Terran gets to mine unharassed for longer.
I watched EonZerg, he didn't boost, got Lair 7 seconds too slow. You can cut that down with the order pool and gas at the same time trick, but that only saves 2.5 seconds. The larva delay is also permanent, so if you drone after a certain amount of muta your drones will come out later, mine less minerals, delay your upgrades. It's not a thing at pro level, every Zerg I watch at least does some boosting
BeSt doesn't boost and still wins because he's Protoss. A one second delay is just one second, you can't make multiple probes at the same time
Great efforts on the research. I'm definitely with TT1 on this though.
I've honestly never felt boosting has helped me win games in B rank, aside from the mental boost when things pan out perfectly. When opponents die to initial muta harass it's due to a skill issue & likely would've died regardless with or without boosting. It also is a mental letdown when I go into a game try-harding and I'm messing up boosting patterns. Generally I'm just as happy taking a few sips of my drink or petting my cat and go into a game with a relaxed mindset.
Not boosting has never stopped Eon from being competitive at S rank either, even though he probably could profit from it more. But afaik he's just trying to have good games and run a chill stream.
it's true that zerg definitely benefits the most from boosting (to hit your pool timing faster/lair timing faster etc) but my main point is that if u angle workers properly, know the order of which patches to mine and manual boost #1 on the right side (which is all really easy to execute, u get a lot for the time you put into learning this) your timings are gonna be good enough, the difference is pretty marginal vs perfect boosting and it's only something that you'd really feel at the highest level
but if maximizing min income is what makes the game fun for you then go for it, all I'm saying is be careful about committing too much of your time on mining practice/research (progamers are gonna do this way better for u anyways, u just need some1 to translate it) as opposed to practicing and improving your foundation via mechanics (multitask/micro/macro) or b.o knowledge
there's always a trade off.. it just depends on your goal and if it's really worth your time for where you're at, marginal optimization is more for high lvl players where the game is extremely detail oriented, their mechanics/bo knowledge/game sense is already at a high lvl (relative to the player pool) so small details that allow them to gain an edge is a big deal, at lower lvls (probably up until legit kr 2400) there's a ton of more important things ppl can do that'll have a bigger impact on skill growth
the problem with BW is a lot of ppl are intimidated to play it cus they think there's an overwhelming amount of random/inaccessible information to learn.. but the reality is there's not that much info if you wanted to have a really concentrated foundational/fundamental guide (of micro techniques/basic mining info/bo info for each race) and you could scale that info up the more players develop/rank up
cus u never like seeing stuff like this xd:
On July 29 2024 23:53 WombaT wrote: Every time I’m tempted to seriously give BW a go I see a thread like this and realise what a task would await me :p
so for anyone wanting to learn about mining i recommend that you just start with the basics and keep it simple, there's info on which patches to mine in order for every race in this thread (ill repost below), figure out how to angle your workers (mining a patch from the top side vs bottom side, this is where it can get a bit ocd'ey but because there's mainly only 2 min formation layouts it's easy to pick up/remember) and just manual return the #1 patch on right side min formations
On August 06 2024 08:54 Smorrie wrote: Great efforts on the research. I'm definitely with TT1 on this though.
I've honestly never felt boosting has helped me win games in B rank, aside from the mental boost when things pan out perfectly. When opponents die to initial muta harass it's due to a skill issue & likely would've died regardless with or without boosting.
when my opponent marine busts my two sunks, the difference between 4 mutas coming out and 5 mutas coming out to meet them is HUGE since 5 mutas can 1 shot a marine
On August 06 2024 11:03 TT1 wrote: if u angle workers properly, know the order of which patches to mine and manual boost #1 on the right side (which is all really easy to execute, u get a lot for the time you put into learning this) your timings are gonna be good enough
on the right side minerals you're 100% right, you can hit any timing just clicking C every few seconds
but try to just do stuff on the left side minerals, it's just super slow and delays your timings, in fact it's 5 seconds slower on the pool
it's half the difference between 9 pool and overpool!
I used to put down my hatchery at 1:40 at 12 supply and now I actually put it down at 1:31 at 11 supply and just boost to make up the mineral difference, that's almost a whole larva (read: drone) more
boosting actually makes tighter builds more viable
On August 06 2024 11:03 TT1 wrote: it's true that zerg definitely benefits the most from boosting (to hit your pool timing faster/lair timing faster etc) but my main point is that if u angle workers properly, know the order of which patches to mine and manual boost #1 on the right side (which is all really easy to execute, u get a lot for the time you put into learning this) your timings are gonna be good enough, the difference is pretty marginal vs perfect boosting and it's only something that you'd really feel at the highest level
but if maximizing min income is what makes the game fun for you then go for it, all I'm saying is be careful about committing too much of your time on mining practice/research (progamers are gonna do this way better for u anyways, u just need some1 to translate it) as opposed to practicing and improving your foundation via mechanics (multitask/micro/macro) or b.o knowledge
there's always a trade off.. it just depends on your goal and if it's really worth your time for where you're at, marginal optimization is more for high lvl players where the game is extremely detail oriented, their mechanics/bo knowledge/game sense is already at a high lvl (relative to the player pool) so small details that allow them to gain an edge is a big deal, at lower lvls (probably up until legit kr 2400) there's a ton of more important things ppl can do that'll have a bigger impact on skill growth
the problem with BW is a lot of ppl are intimidated to play it cus they think there's an overwhelming amount of random/inaccessible information to learn.. but the reality is there's not that much info if you wanted to have a really concentrated foundational/fundamental guide (of micro techniques/basic mining info/bo info for each race) and you could scale that info up the more players develop/rank up
On July 29 2024 23:53 WombaT wrote: Every time I’m tempted to seriously give BW a go I see a thread like this and realise what a task would await me :p
so for anyone wanting to learn about mining i recommend that you just start with the basics and keep it simple, there's info on which patches to mine in order for every race in this thread (ill repost below), figure out how to angle your workers (mining a patch from the top side vs bottom side, this is where it can get a bit ocd'ey but because there's mainly only 2 min formation layouts it's easy to pick up/remember) and just manual return the #1 patch on right side min formations
Oh I wasn’t being serious, it doesn’t put me off and I find it fascinating hence why I delve into such threads. Amazing how much the game has been explored! More facetiously expressing my admiration.
I just don’t have the time, I think what both BW and WC3 lack, and I’ve really wanted to return to both competitively at various times, is some solid central repository of knowledge that’s reasonably comprehensive, contemporary and well-organised. The info is out there, but man it can take a bit of hunting. Here’s some basic builds, here’s some basic strats, here’s some explanations of little micro tricks, here’s some advice on setting hotkeys, all in one place. Would be nice but a hell of a labour of love if anyone tried it.
I’m content trying to get my previous guitar chops back, learn a bit of slap and pop funk bass and some piano rudiments, doesn’t leave much time for much else, so for the time being I’ll get my fix observing the pros do it.
Agreed 100% on your point on optimising mining to start. It’s a run before you can walk thing. Just get out there and see how you go.
At one stage in my guitar journey I (also partly because of wrist/elbow issues and trying to mitigate those) I devised a bunch of picking exercises, used to practice with a camera on focused on my picking hand so I could observe it and tweak little things. Played in a sling for a bit to force me to not use my elbow much and move more of the motion to be purely in the wrist.
It made sense for me at the time as I was already pretty good, like an A/S class guitar player if we’re going BW ranks, with the added issue of pretty brutal joint pain and tendinitis to mitigate.
Kiddo is following in learning himself, it would be the last thing I’d stick on his plate in the novice stage. Have fun, enjoy making some sounds, playing your first few songs!
Marginal gain stuff is just that, marginal. Learn it when you’re looking an edge
Top side of Dominator is insane, unboosted it's 74+75+75+70+74+66+77+67+65 = 643 minerals with just 9 drones and the #5 patch boost gives you probably 5 more minerals per minute
On September 12 2024 18:09 iopq wrote: Top side of Dominator is insane, unboosted it's 74+75+75+70+74+66+77+67+65 = 643 minerals with just 9 drones and the #5 patch boost gives you probably 5 more minerals per minute
Thats insane, considering that I thought the map maker intentionally changed it from the typical 12 position 3p spawns (Sylphid/Apoc) to be more balanced efficiency wise.
Apocalypse perfectly balanced top vs. right spawn, but the left spawn got worse (the 10th mineral is the slowest so it's the worst change of the three) Dominator bottom spawn is the left Sylphid spawn with the #2 removed and the #10 mineral spawn from Apocalypse added so it's even slower than the Sylphid spawn
But at least it's much easier to boost the top spot, so I'd prefer minerals on the other spots to be balanced towards less manual boosting (I'm looking at you, bottom spot with its 3 manual boosts)
as I said in the other thread, you need to boost manually just to barely fail to match the mining rate of the top spot
On September 13 2024 17:26 iopq wrote: Yes, Sylphid top is currently slower
Apocalypse perfectly balanced top vs. right spawn, but the left spawn got worse (the 10th mineral is the slowest so it's the worst change of the three) Dominator bottom spawn is the left Sylphid spawn with the #2 removed and the #10 mineral spawn from Apocalypse added so it's even slower than the Sylphid spawn
But at least it's much easier to boost the top spot, so I'd prefer minerals on the other spots to be balanced towards less manual boosting (I'm looking at you, bottom spot with its 3 manual boosts)
as I said in the other thread, you need to boost manually just to barely fail to match the mining rate of the top spot
Yeah I would love it if manual boosting was minimized and the three spawns were roughly the same in mining efficiency. Alas, I think someone said that map makers are whatever about it because its "close enough" to them for balancing purposes. Plus, it has to look aesthetically pleasing too I guess so they cant just make them look too ugly.
Well, the right side minerals on Dominator have a tiny improvement - the #1 spot is around 62 minerals/min without any obvious boost, the #2 autoboosts like the Apocalypse one (76 minerals/min) while removing some minerals like the fast boosting #8 and boostable #9
overall it's better (easier to split?), but you have to keep boosting the #3 mineral (the old #1 mineral) and the #5 mineral (old #3) just the same
Btw, from a map making perspective the main difficulty in balancing this is less about the position of the patches but is more about pathfinding regions, and this is where most of the work goes into.
The position of a mineral patch in relation to the nexus/cc/hatch is not sufficient to know the mining rate.
The path taken by workers also depends on the pathfinding regions. If you're not familiar with the term, its these yellow boxes: + Show Spoiler +
. This stuff is also important for whether reavers will be able to shoot, so its particularly important around mineral lines.
In the bw engine, the algorithm to calculate the pathfinding regions is implemented in the dumbest way possible and there is a lot of arcane knowledge involved in debugging these. Map makers literally spend days in the map editor copy/pasting single walkable/unwalkable tiles around the map until they find something that works.
On September 12 2024 18:09 iopq wrote: Top side of Dominator is insane, unboosted it's 74+75+75+70+74+66+77+67+65 = 643 minerals with just 9 drones and the #5 patch boost gives you probably 5 more minerals per minute
To put it into context just how fast that is, according to the ideal mining thoughts thread, you need 12 SCV's in order to mine 648 minerals per minute... Also, I thought about faster hatchery timings. The main barrier is larva block. However if you can harvest comparable to 12 SCV's that speeds up the fast expand tremendously. Normally I would think 10/9 overhatch into overlord would enable the fastest hatchery at 10, but this would open up the possibility to 8/9 hatchery which was my main goal. PS: that is almost 24 seconds advantage if you can boost 301 minerals from 4 patches right from the start. It takes 10 seconds for drones to mine the cost for the #5 drone and 14 seconds on top of that just to get the drone mining. I did another one of my napkin maths. Just the fact that harvesting equal to 12 SCVs at 9 while foregoing 250 minerals for an overlord and 3 drones and also harvesting 247 minerals more up to this point puts the booster at ~497 mineral advantage at mining parity according to my calculations. At no time does the booster need to stop at 9 drones as well, however 500 minerals is such an advantage, that is already 1 minute ahead in the tech tree. In fact, economically it is more than 2x. 9 drone booster have likely mined 991 minerals when all drones are spent while 12 drones and 1 overlord sets the nonbooster back at 491 minerals. That is 3 larvae and +500 minerals advantage. At 648 mining speed that is a 47 second lead, however since it is compounding the booster reaches 491 minerals 36 seconds sooner - even hatchery @9/9 two larva point.
Normal spots mine at over 600 as well. Because that spot has only one boost it's not actually faster than right side minerals or Apocalypse top side minerals when boosted. SCVs just mine slower because of the shape of the command center so you can't compare the two
Optimal economy build is overhatch, or if you're really on top of it, 9 hatch 10 overlord. You probably want to do it vs. Terran because there are other concerns vs. P or Z. Overhatch needs to boost absolutely perfectly to hit the 2:48 lair, but it's possible. It's the best 3:02 Lair build. 9 hatch can probably be faster on larvae, but you have to hold your Lair off for like 6 seconds, so maybe there's a 2:54 Lair timing you can do. The most important thing is how your larvae sync up after lair since you will always prevent getting larva blocked. The standard build gets to 7 mutas kind of slowly because larva pops at an inconvenient time and you have to spend it so you don't lose it
Yeah, different starting locations on Fighting Spirit do mine at different rates; The top left and bottom right spots are the fastest due to better access to resources while the middle spots are a bit slower &The difference is not huge but can add up in a tight game. What position do you usually play?
i hit a 1:36 11/12 gas timing as terran the other day on top spawn apoc. I think I could've hit one on right side minerals but sent the scv too late to the gas, but top spawn on 3p is definitely pretty OP for boosting/getting things up a couple seconds faster. Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, but nice improvements overall for my boosting.
Great level of research in detail here thanks for all of that... I didn't realize the boosting was such a big deal, I never really focused on that but thank you for the research again, very interesting.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MOqS08X.png)
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