EPTIs this true? And if so, what is the list, from fastest to slowest, and how big is the difference?
Fighting Spirit mining rates
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Is this true? And if so, what is the list, from fastest to slowest, and how big is the difference? | ||
|
MineraIs
United States846 Posts
| ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
 List of Unit and Building SizesMeaning you will have to trial&error on each main for each race. Most likely not that big of a difference as compared to Hunter/BGH. All this is nitpicky as in the end its up to your skill rather than if you managed to boost some more minerals. | ||
|
Soulforged
Latvia913 Posts
There's been some images around with efficiency %'s for each mineral patch on each spawn, but I can't seem to find them anymore. | ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Fighting Spirit | ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/674795465040068648/1079561672966012928/luna_mining_rates.png) (these are all auto-mine stats, u have to mine the corners of the most forward patches tho, for example #1 on the right side is very slow here unless u manually return cargo it) the top formation is also pretty standard (sylphid, ascension is also similar), the bot formations are the ones that are different on a lot of maps | ||
|
alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
| ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26630164 (img in spoiler) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6D2N2Yq.png) | ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
there's also a way to see the FPS mining rate of each patch but i dunno how to do that, kors use it tho (credit goes to suricatta for that spreadsheet) | ||
|
MineraIs
United States846 Posts
On June 06 2023 14:38 MeSaber wrote: @TT1 - Just because you have minerals on the same place doesnt mean it mines the same as thats decided by the pathing regions. https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26630164 (img in spoiler) Modern map makers strive to have good pathfinding in their resource areas, so I would say that this spreadsheet is accurate. If a monkey made a map (blizzard) then perhaps the spreadsheet would be inaccurate. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On June 06 2023 04:05 TT1 wrote: FS has outdated left side mins, here's the stats for the most common min patch formations, right side and left side are pretty standard on almost all the new maps now: (these are all auto-mine stats, u have to mine the corners of the most forward patches tho, for example #1 on the right side is very slow here unless u manually return cargo it) the top formation is also pretty standard (sylphid, ascension is also similar), the bot formations are the ones that are different on a lot of maps I was looking for this, haha So basically with Zerg on top right you would 1358, boost mining on 1, and then everything else, 6 the very last patch bottom left 1346, then at the end 5 and 7 what's the pattern for sylphid? | ||
|
Freakling
Germany1526 Posts
On June 06 2023 04:05 TT1 wrote: FS has outdated left side mins, here's the stats for the most common min patch formations, right side and left side are pretty standard on almost all the new maps now: (these are all auto-mine stats, u have to mine the corners of the most forward patches tho, for example #1 on the right side is very slow here unless u manually return cargo it) the top formation is also pretty standard (sylphid, ascension is also similar), the bot formations are the ones that are different on a lot of maps I suspect that these stats are not for strictly on-grid placed formations but with some offset on at least the straight line bottom patches ;P | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On June 28 2023 02:47 Freakling wrote: I suspect that these stats are not for strictly on-grid placed formations but with some offset on at least the straight line bottom patches ;P Can we get a "I have too much time on my hands" guide for where to send your workers at the start on every ladder map, position, race combo? | ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
On June 29 2023 10:20 iopq wrote: Can we get a "I have too much time on my hands" guide for where to send your workers at the start on every ladder map, position, race combo? That chart covers pretty much all the standard modern day min formations, ignore the bottom formation (bot right pic). There still isn't a consensus on what the best formation for that base is yet, you'll see a lot of diff min formations for it. The top left pic is the standard top formation mins (think 12oclock on sylphid, 12 on ascension, this formation is mainly used on 3p maps or 4p maps that have a 12oclock spawn, so say 12/6/3/9). The top right pic is for right side mins on pretty much all maps with standard mins (think FS/Poly/Eclipse/Sylphid etc, literally every right side base on any type of map, be it 2p/3p/4p). The bot left pic is the new standard min formation for left side bases (Vermeer, Eclipse, Sylphid etc). Learning those 3 formations should pretty much cover all modern day maps. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
Sylphid 12 should be exactly the same, #6 on Sylphid top formation needs to be manually boosted like the #1 patch on right side mins ![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456245193885220876/1124751518902522076/Untitled.png) | ||
|
Freakling
Germany1526 Posts
On June 29 2023 10:20 iopq wrote: Can we get a "I have too much time on my hands" guide for where to send your workers at the start on every ladder map, position, race combo? Why are you asking me? "Too much time on my hands" does definitely not apply O_o | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On July 02 2023 02:21 TT1 wrote: FS and Poly left side mins are outdated (there's actually a newer version of Poly with L shaped left side mins, Poly 1.72), modern maps don't use that formation anymore on the left side Sylphid 12 should be exactly the same, #6 on Sylphid top formation needs to be manually boosted like the #1 patch on right side mins how about boosting #5? If you mine from the middle and hit return cargo at 3/4 of the way back to hatchery, it boosts as well it's not great, like 64 minerals per minute 0:55 82 minerals 2:55 210 minerals drone same position but it's faster than mining from the left side #6 is something like 75 so it's a way bigger increase so that might be the one to focus on though edit: #1 on the left side can be boosted with placing a pool in the right spot, I'll test it later | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/u/0/drive-viewer/AFGJ81p9w4kAIsYG4TgeGQ2MhLyQ57YH2jzi9tWrw7cXnX-9j361vBvysDlzFZsXv3JefVTevKINrO3OpeEiinGJZDbHHEAYKA=w1920-h963) this what I'm talking about 1:40 82 6:08 410 ~73 minerals per second gas is not affected, still about 102 gas per second per drone (the drones go off to the side for some reason from time to time??) | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
in my tests more like 98 gas/min/drone which is slower than the bottom gas mining | ||
|
KrillinFromwales
51 Posts
edit: it's not just about being predictable, it's about avoiding the inevitable mind game. If you try to adapt to circumstances then you're doomed to fail. | ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On June 06 2023 04:05 TT1 wrote: FS has outdated left side mins, here's the stats for the most common min patch formations, right side and left side are pretty standard on almost all the new maps now: (these are all auto-mine stats, u have to mine the corners of the most forward patches tho, for example #1 on the right side is very slow here unless u manually return cargo it) the top formation is also pretty standard (sylphid, ascension is also similar), the bot formations are the ones that are different on a lot of maps I retested some of these numbers on Eclipse with Zerg in the left minerals, mining #9 up and down is 68.9 (408 minerals in 355 seconds), maybe you were mining diagonally to get the lower value? I got 400 minerals in 365 seconds which is 65.8 mining diagonally for #1 I got 69.5 which is basically agreeing with these numbers auto-boosting with pool placement I got 78.5 | ||
|
Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines525 Posts
link to it happening: 6:37:35 - 6:37:38, 00:18 in the in-game timer | ||
|
htrf
2 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
then you hit return cargo when it's like 1/3 of the way to boost, but then you need to reset it to mine to the right again I wasn't able to consistently keep boosting it, anyone have any tips? EDIT: on single player the point where you boost is when you get almost to the hatchery (it goes diagonally and when it reaches the plane of the hatchery at like 3/4 of the way there you return cargo) so online it would be like when you're 2/3 of the way to the hatchery so you first click on the other patch, the #9, then right before it starts mining it you switch back to patch #8 and do the return cargo at the correct timing result is over 70 minerals per minute even when not done perfectly (71.7 when I wasn't even able to boost, just making the path of the drone better, up from 66.7 which is generally correct) EDIT2: 66.4 mining that patch normally in my testing | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On June 06 2023 04:05 TT1 wrote: FS has outdated left side mins, here's the stats for the most common min patch formations, right side and left side are pretty standard on almost all the new maps now: (these are all auto-mine stats, u have to mine the corners of the most forward patches tho, for example #1 on the right side is very slow here unless u manually return cargo it) the top formation is also pretty standard (sylphid, ascension is also similar), the bot formations are the ones that are different on a lot of maps I also looked at mining rates of Apocalypse they added a top right 1500 mineral that mines at 76.2 minerals per minute for Zerg ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/197yKki.png) | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
Just line up the drone from the right side of the mineral and it will boost ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/eEORgbd.png) I got 70.8 minerals/min just lining up the drone | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On August 03 2023 23:44 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: for the bottom right one, i've seen #9 boosted, anyone know how to do it? link to it happening: 6:37:35 - 6:37:38, 00:18 in the in-game timer You literally just click to the left a bit to make that path, I'll test it later for how for it is | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On August 03 2023 23:44 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: for the bottom right one, i've seen #9 boosted, anyone know how to do it? link to it happening: 6:37:35 - 6:37:38, 00:18 in the in-game timer I made a video just for you | ||
|
Nirli
Bulgaria358 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On December 31 2023 22:34 Nirli wrote: If I wanted to micromanage even mining, I would just spent an extra hour at work instead, sheesh. I actually agree. How about a map where none of the mining patches have a boost that's worth doing past the first time? For example, the #7 right side boost and the #9 left side boosts fail to work when other drones block the movement required for the boost. Why not remove the patches you can manually boost and add patches that are hard/not worth to boost instead? How do we feel about having to move larvae to the left side? | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/o436XWX.png) mining from the left of the patch here is significantly faster than from the right, and both form stable paths it's like 69 vs. 63, so worth doing | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
I did a very hard to do boost to increase it to 71.88 min/minute (159 frames) but it's not even worth your time because when you mess up it slows your mining down and it might be a frame-perfect boost so it should be reserved for AIs just do the triangle style one I showed in my video clicking to the left for 161 frames for 70.99 min/minute because if you go a little too far you only lose like a frame | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
when you hit return cargo 2/3 of the way back you get 151 frames (75.7) the 77 value might be copied over from the Protoss value, it's not accurate let me test mining from the top of the patch, it's a bit faster - 151 frames without having to boost ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GOpdOoQ.png) | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
I thought it didn't do anything until I was able to improve from 151 frames (75.7 min) to 149 frames (76.7) by hitting return cargo at the correct timing somewhere in the middle | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
I tried boosting from the top right corner, but I just got 150 frames so it only matches mining from the correct place | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
but if you manually line up to the left side of the mineral you can get 166, but you need to readjust it every time and it's not always this efficient, depends on the exact path of the drone | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
You can get a manual 149 frames (76.7 minerals/min) by doing the same boost as the left side #8 | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
#2 is 169 frames (67.62) so it's actually only one frame away from #1 | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
#6 is 163 frames (70.11) from the top this is correct on the chart, mining from the middle of the mineral gives us 168 which is worse #7 is 177-ish frames (64.57) but varies by a frame sometimes (?) #9 is 160 frames (71.43) from the top right corner so it should be prioritized #8 is weird because it's not exactly stable, varies and averages like 65 minerals per minute | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
if you want to boost, then fill out the first four >70 min/minute patches and boost patch #8 with the 5th drone make sure to mine from the top right parts of the minerals for patches like #9 and #7 where they mine much slower when not lined up - I think this is why the previous chart is wrong ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rvm28yZ.png) also you can put a pool on the top to boost | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/tfXZ3dH.png) you can boost #1, #7, and #9 #1 you should return cargo as the drone gets the mineral #7 you should make the drone go to the left more before dropping off the minerals to boost, but this will be blocked by other drones and eggs so just do it the first few times if you have the chance #9 you should boost by lining up the drone on the edge of the mineral every time around so start doing this before you put the drone on the slowest patches since you can do both #1 and #9 boost at the same time so since #1 is the easiest boost (and yields the most minerals consistently) you should go 1358 for your split and begin boosting, then 10 and line it up not on the farthest left edge, but one position to the right so it forms a stable path while still mining up and down | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
the top #1 does 158 frames sometimes and sometimes 150 using 154 as the average gives 74.21 which is close to the long term mining average, it's a good patch to mine if you line the drone up anyway, so it's not an issue since you'll want to mine it right away #2 is doing 185(61.78) frames sometimes and 180(63.49) frames sometimes, but if you average those you get 62.6 which is my long term mining rate I made the same mistake with right side #6, it fluctuates between 189 (60.49) and 180 (63.49) and long term mines around 62.7 which is right between those values left side #7 should be lined up on the top right corner of the mineral and sometimes it does a boost mining 68 minerals per minute, but goes back to 64 and then boosts again so the average is above 65 | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XgR4GNt.png) the white circles are where you would line up the drone, numbers with no manual boost | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
Left side minerals total 671 Right side minerals total 691 Top side minerals total 691 the left side also has a harder boost so it's the worst location (for Zerg at least) for standard maps it's left side 610 right side 619 top side 615 you can fix the tenth patch to make it easier to mine and that would make at least 10 patch bases more equal I'm working on a harder to boost (or not worth boosting) version of minerals like so ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DT8xhTv.png) you still need to line the drones up to mine optimally, but you do it once, set and forget | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On August 03 2023 23:44 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: for the bottom right one, i've seen #9 boosted, anyone know how to do it? link to it happening: 6:37:35 - 6:37:38, 00:18 in the in-game timer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ492CBRuUo&t=23855s I tested it, the pulling to the side trick increases the mining from about 70 minerals/min to 75 minerals/min because of automatic boosting I have failed to get a fast pool timing because I didn't do this automatic boost trick https://repmastered.app/game/2KHL_opbwFrQKhQfQgiEepsusxzvygbXNCKhXk8YjBQ here between 2:25 and 4:19 I mined 146 minerals in 114 seconds giving me a mining rate of 76.8 minerals per minute from that patch it stopped boosting after this settling in a slower rate of around 74 minerals/min but notice I had to try several times to get the thing to boost right | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On June 06 2023 04:05 TT1 wrote: FS has outdated left side mins, here's the stats for the most common min patch formations, right side and left side are pretty standard on almost all the new maps now: (these are all auto-mine stats, u have to mine the corners of the most forward patches tho, for example #1 on the right side is very slow here unless u manually return cargo it) the top formation is also pretty standard (sylphid, ascension is also similar), the bot formations are the ones that are different on a lot of maps can you rehost your image somewhere it doesn't go stale | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24389 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.spx
Russian Federation366 Posts
| ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
On July 19 2024 07:08 iopq wrote: can you rehost your image somewhere it doesn't go stale i think the pic was the mining rates for diff formations? ![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/674795465040068648/1079561672966012928/luna_mining_rates.png?ex=66ab8068&is=66aa2ee8&hm=35729db65a131318a1146b9f9d95b13c218ba5c9ab40ae1994b4e84acd8b3982&) these are auto mining stats (no manual boosting done, i.e without pressing "c" on #1 right side), bottom formation should be disregarded cus that 1 changes all the time (there's still no standardized bottom formation) | ||
|
EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
| ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
i dunno why but the pic link keeps getting deleted, ill reupload to imgur and post, might fix it ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ezWUk0L.png) | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On August 03 2024 09:54 TT1 wrote: no cus theres too many different versions of it and the mining in general is just bugged on a lot of BGH patches i dunno why but the pic link keeps getting deleted, ill reupload to imgur and post, might fix it yeah, it's this one, even if it contains inaccuracies (not mining from the correct angle on some patches) | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
I can get a nice auto-boost with the drone 3:20 240 minerals 6:11 456 minerals I'm getting almost 76 without touching the game after I set up the auto-boost, but not sure if that counts as "auto mining" since you have to manually drag the drone to the side but it still mines faster than that chart without the boost, ~70 min/minute | ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
but ofc being able to manually return cargo some patches could completely change the order of which patches to mine, most obvious one is #1 on right side, that 1 is pretty mandatory for all races there's a bunch more race dependent manual boosts (these ones u have to study and practice the timing) but u have to be precise, if you're not it could end up slowing ur mining, some ppl can consistently hit 3 patch boosting but imo u shouldn't really ocd over these type of things (if it's at the expense of more important stuff) until u reach a really high level, there's way bigger bang for you buck fundamentals that players can/should focus on, ocd'ing over details like this can be a trap if u lose sight of the big picture (but it's good if understand that it's just 1 part of the big picture) just placing workers at the correct angle and manually return cargo'ing #1 on the right side is good enough until you're a ASL lvl player, if u watch many pros when they stream/ladder they slack with boosting and still take games off other pros | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
I watched EonZerg, he didn't boost, got Lair 7 seconds too slow. You can cut that down with the order pool and gas at the same time trick, but that only saves 2.5 seconds. The larva delay is also permanent, so if you drone after a certain amount of muta your drones will come out later, mine less minerals, delay your upgrades. It's not a thing at pro level, every Zerg I watch at least does some boosting BeSt doesn't boost and still wins because he's Protoss. A one second delay is just one second, you can't make multiple probes at the same time | ||
|
Smorrie
Netherlands2921 Posts
I've honestly never felt boosting has helped me win games in B rank, aside from the mental boost when things pan out perfectly. When opponents die to initial muta harass it's due to a skill issue & likely would've died regardless with or without boosting. It also is a mental letdown when I go into a game try-harding and I'm messing up boosting patterns. Generally I'm just as happy taking a few sips of my drink or petting my cat and go into a game with a relaxed mindset. Not boosting has never stopped Eon from being competitive at S rank either, even though he probably could profit from it more. But afaik he's just trying to have good games and run a chill stream. | ||
|
TT1
Canada9990 Posts
but if maximizing min income is what makes the game fun for you then go for it, all I'm saying is be careful about committing too much of your time on mining practice/research (progamers are gonna do this way better for u anyways, u just need some1 to translate it) as opposed to practicing and improving your foundation via mechanics (multitask/micro/macro) or b.o knowledge there's always a trade off.. it just depends on your goal and if it's really worth your time for where you're at, marginal optimization is more for high lvl players where the game is extremely detail oriented, their mechanics/bo knowledge/game sense is already at a high lvl (relative to the player pool) so small details that allow them to gain an edge is a big deal, at lower lvls (probably up until legit kr 2400) there's a ton of more important things ppl can do that'll have a bigger impact on skill growth the problem with BW is a lot of ppl are intimidated to play it cus they think there's an overwhelming amount of random/inaccessible information to learn.. but the reality is there's not that much info if you wanted to have a really concentrated foundational/fundamental guide (of micro techniques/basic mining info/bo info for each race) and you could scale that info up the more players develop/rank up cus u never like seeing stuff like this xd: On July 29 2024 23:53 WombaT wrote: Every time I’m tempted to seriously give BW a go I see a thread like this and realise what a task would await me :p so for anyone wanting to learn about mining i recommend that you just start with the basics and keep it simple, there's info on which patches to mine in order for every race in this thread (ill repost below), figure out how to angle your workers (mining a patch from the top side vs bottom side, this is where it can get a bit ocd'ey but because there's mainly only 2 min formation layouts it's easy to pick up/remember) and just manual return the #1 patch on right side min formations ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MOqS08X.png) | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On August 06 2024 08:54 Smorrie wrote: Great efforts on the research. I'm definitely with TT1 on this though. I've honestly never felt boosting has helped me win games in B rank, aside from the mental boost when things pan out perfectly. When opponents die to initial muta harass it's due to a skill issue & likely would've died regardless with or without boosting. when my opponent marine busts my two sunks, the difference between 4 mutas coming out and 5 mutas coming out to meet them is HUGE since 5 mutas can 1 shot a marine On August 06 2024 11:03 TT1 wrote: if u angle workers properly, know the order of which patches to mine and manual boost #1 on the right side (which is all really easy to execute, u get a lot for the time you put into learning this) your timings are gonna be good enough on the right side minerals you're 100% right, you can hit any timing just clicking C every few seconds but try to just do stuff on the left side minerals, it's just super slow and delays your timings, in fact it's 5 seconds slower on the pool it's half the difference between 9 pool and overpool! I used to put down my hatchery at 1:40 at 12 supply and now I actually put it down at 1:31 at 11 supply and just boost to make up the mineral difference, that's almost a whole larva (read: drone) more boosting actually makes tighter builds more viable | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24389 Posts
On August 06 2024 11:03 TT1 wrote: it's true that zerg definitely benefits the most from boosting (to hit your pool timing faster/lair timing faster etc) but my main point is that if u angle workers properly, know the order of which patches to mine and manual boost #1 on the right side (which is all really easy to execute, u get a lot for the time you put into learning this) your timings are gonna be good enough, the difference is pretty marginal vs perfect boosting and it's only something that you'd really feel at the highest level but if maximizing min income is what makes the game fun for you then go for it, all I'm saying is be careful about committing too much of your time on mining practice/research (progamers are gonna do this way better for u anyways, u just need some1 to translate it) as opposed to practicing and improving your foundation via mechanics (multitask/micro/macro) or b.o knowledge there's always a trade off.. it just depends on your goal and if it's really worth your time for where you're at, marginal optimization is more for high lvl players where the game is extremely detail oriented, their mechanics/bo knowledge/game sense is already at a high lvl (relative to the player pool) so small details that allow them to gain an edge is a big deal, at lower lvls (probably up until legit kr 2400) there's a ton of more important things ppl can do that'll have a bigger impact on skill growth the problem with BW is a lot of ppl are intimidated to play it cus they think there's an overwhelming amount of random/inaccessible information to learn.. but the reality is there's not that much info if you wanted to have a really concentrated foundational/fundamental guide (of micro techniques/basic mining info/bo info for each race) and you could scale that info up the more players develop/rank up cus u never like seeing stuff like this xd: so for anyone wanting to learn about mining i recommend that you just start with the basics and keep it simple, there's info on which patches to mine in order for every race in this thread (ill repost below), figure out how to angle your workers (mining a patch from the top side vs bottom side, this is where it can get a bit ocd'ey but because there's mainly only 2 min formation layouts it's easy to pick up/remember) and just manual return the #1 patch on right side min formations Oh I wasn’t being serious, it doesn’t put me off and I find it fascinating hence why I delve into such threads. Amazing how much the game has been explored! More facetiously expressing my admiration. I just don’t have the time, I think what both BW and WC3 lack, and I’ve really wanted to return to both competitively at various times, is some solid central repository of knowledge that’s reasonably comprehensive, contemporary and well-organised. The info is out there, but man it can take a bit of hunting. Here’s some basic builds, here’s some basic strats, here’s some explanations of little micro tricks, here’s some advice on setting hotkeys, all in one place. Would be nice but a hell of a labour of love if anyone tried it. I’m content trying to get my previous guitar chops back, learn a bit of slap and pop funk bass and some piano rudiments, doesn’t leave much time for much else, so for the time being I’ll get my fix observing the pros do it. Agreed 100% on your point on optimising mining to start. It’s a run before you can walk thing. Just get out there and see how you go. At one stage in my guitar journey I (also partly because of wrist/elbow issues and trying to mitigate those) I devised a bunch of picking exercises, used to practice with a camera on focused on my picking hand so I could observe it and tweak little things. Played in a sling for a bit to force me to not use my elbow much and move more of the motion to be purely in the wrist. It made sense for me at the time as I was already pretty good, like an A/S class guitar player if we’re going BW ranks, with the added issue of pretty brutal joint pain and tendinitis to mitigate. Kiddo is following in learning himself, it would be the last thing I’d stick on his plate in the novice stage. Have fun, enjoy making some sounds, playing your first few songs! Marginal gain stuff is just that, marginal. Learn it when you’re looking an edge | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On September 12 2024 18:09 iopq wrote: Top side of Dominator is insane, unboosted it's 74+75+75+70+74+66+77+67+65 = 643 minerals with just 9 drones and the #5 patch boost gives you probably 5 more minerals per minute Thats insane, considering that I thought the map maker intentionally changed it from the typical 12 position 3p spawns (Sylphid/Apoc) to be more balanced efficiency wise. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
Apocalypse perfectly balanced top vs. right spawn, but the left spawn got worse (the 10th mineral is the slowest so it's the worst change of the three) Dominator bottom spawn is the left Sylphid spawn with the #2 removed and the #10 mineral spawn from Apocalypse added so it's even slower than the Sylphid spawn But at least it's much easier to boost the top spot, so I'd prefer minerals on the other spots to be balanced towards less manual boosting (I'm looking at you, bottom spot with its 3 manual boosts) as I said in the other thread, you need to boost manually just to barely fail to match the mining rate of the top spot | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On September 13 2024 17:26 iopq wrote: Yes, Sylphid top is currently slower Apocalypse perfectly balanced top vs. right spawn, but the left spawn got worse (the 10th mineral is the slowest so it's the worst change of the three) Dominator bottom spawn is the left Sylphid spawn with the #2 removed and the #10 mineral spawn from Apocalypse added so it's even slower than the Sylphid spawn But at least it's much easier to boost the top spot, so I'd prefer minerals on the other spots to be balanced towards less manual boosting (I'm looking at you, bottom spot with its 3 manual boosts) as I said in the other thread, you need to boost manually just to barely fail to match the mining rate of the top spot Yeah I would love it if manual boosting was minimized and the three spawns were roughly the same in mining efficiency. Alas, I think someone said that map makers are whatever about it because its "close enough" to them for balancing purposes. Plus, it has to look aesthetically pleasing too I guess so they cant just make them look too ugly. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
overall it's better (easier to split?), but you have to keep boosting the #3 mineral (the old #1 mineral) and the #5 mineral (old #3) just the same | ||
|
Kraekkling
Romania383 Posts
The position of a mineral patch in relation to the nexus/cc/hatch is not sufficient to know the mining rate. The path taken by workers also depends on the pathfinding regions. If you're not familiar with the term, its these yellow boxes: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/q9wdGgJ/reg.png) In the bw engine, the algorithm to calculate the pathfinding regions is implemented in the dumbest way possible and there is a lot of arcane knowledge involved in debugging these. Map makers literally spend days in the map editor copy/pasting single walkable/unwalkable tiles around the map until they find something that works. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey225 Posts
On September 12 2024 18:09 iopq wrote: Top side of Dominator is insane, unboosted it's 74+75+75+70+74+66+77+67+65 = 643 minerals with just 9 drones and the #5 patch boost gives you probably 5 more minerals per minute To put it into context just how fast that is, according to the ideal mining thoughts thread, you need 12 SCV's in order to mine 648 minerals per minute... Also, I thought about faster hatchery timings. The main barrier is larva block. However if you can harvest comparable to 12 SCV's that speeds up the fast expand tremendously. Normally I would think 10/9 overhatch into overlord would enable the fastest hatchery at 10, but this would open up the possibility to 8/9 hatchery which was my main goal. PS: that is almost 24 seconds advantage if you can boost 301 minerals from 4 patches right from the start. It takes 10 seconds for drones to mine the cost for the #5 drone and 14 seconds on top of that just to get the drone mining. I did another one of my napkin maths. Just the fact that harvesting equal to 12 SCVs at 9 while foregoing 250 minerals for an overlord and 3 drones and also harvesting 247 minerals more up to this point puts the booster at ~497 mineral advantage at mining parity according to my calculations. At no time does the booster need to stop at 9 drones as well, however 500 minerals is such an advantage, that is already 1 minute ahead in the tech tree. In fact, economically it is more than 2x. 9 drone booster have likely mined 991 minerals when all drones are spent while 12 drones and 1 overlord sets the nonbooster back at 491 minerals. That is 3 larvae and +500 minerals advantage. At 648 mining speed that is a 47 second lead, however since it is compounding the booster reaches 491 minerals 36 seconds sooner - even hatchery @9/9 two larva point. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
Optimal economy build is overhatch, or if you're really on top of it, 9 hatch 10 overlord. You probably want to do it vs. Terran because there are other concerns vs. P or Z. Overhatch needs to boost absolutely perfectly to hit the 2:48 lair, but it's possible. It's the best 3:02 Lair build. 9 hatch can probably be faster on larvae, but you have to hold your Lair off for like 6 seconds, so maybe there's a 2:54 Lair timing you can do. The most important thing is how your larvae sync up after lair since you will always prevent getting larva blocked. The standard build gets to 7 mutas kind of slowly because larva pops at an inconvenient time and you have to spend it so you don't lose it | ||
|
Bamo
India4 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
sydneychogan
5 Posts
| ||
|
sydneychogan
5 Posts
| ||
|
TelecoM
United States10666 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
I kind of rambled about some of the drone abilities and mining in this video | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/VpsNFHD/PXL-20250128-171331118-MP.jpg) This is the exact cycle Zerg workers make | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
these resource timer maps are the ones I used so for example, for #1, I get a cycle of length 6 with an average of 174 frames each frame is 42 ms, and there's 1000 milliseconds in a second so that means each cycle takes on average 174 * 42 ms = 7308 ms, or 7.308s each trip 60 seconds/min / 7.308s/trip = 8.210180623973727 trips/min or 65.68144499178982 minerals/min unboosted for the most accurate count just doing 6 minutes of mining and averaging it out gave me 65.31 which is off on the second digit the best patches like 3, 5, and 8 get 76.70182166826462 per minute (the 149 frames number) 2 has a 7 cycle with an average of 170.4285714285714 which is actually exactly 7158 milliseconds on average giving 67.05783738474434 per minute #4 similarly has a 6 cycle of 7371 frames average giving 65.12006512006512 per minute #6 with a 9 cycle of 7,658 for 62.67955079655262 minerals per minute #9 with a 9 cycle of 7,658 gives the same exact result | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
#3 spot EXTREMELY not worth boosting because at best you cut the time down to 147 frames, but at worst you slow it down to 156 frames SCV, probe, and drone all mine at the same speed to the hatchery, despite people claiming otherwise | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
#7 I got 7,308ms, or 65.68144499178982 minerals per minute unboosted, also a bit lower BOOSTING perfectly boosting the #1 patch got me something like 140 frames which would be 81.6 minerals/min if it doesn't form a longer cycle (but perfectly boosting for several times in a row is difficult) | ||
|
WGT-Baal
France3343 Posts
On January 29 2025 02:22 iopq wrote: I finally found the frames data map so I can measure the exact frame times for every right side mining spot This is the exact cycle Zerg workers make Very interesting. So it seems 6 is way worse than 4, even though you usually see players go 3 - 5-6-7 at first. Then reposition 6 to 2. I guess it would be similar for the other races too | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/XxqDxdh8/PXL-20250202-085937203-MP.jpg) This is Apocalypse top, I found a faster cycle for right #2 (which is top #8) at 167.75 frames on average | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/jPyWLzN0/PXL-20250202-100951929.jpg) Two interesting facts: #6 is the longest cycle at 16 #7 is the only non-integer cycle in milliseconds ( I kept checking it and it was always not divisible by 11) | ||
|
Freakling
Germany1526 Posts
On January 31 2025 22:41 WGT-Baal wrote: Very interesting. So it seems 6 is way worse than 4, even though you usually see players go 3 - 5-6-7 at first. Then reposition 6 to 2. I guess it would be similar for the other races too The assumptions that the other races would be similar is inherently flawed, as the frame duration of a worker trip primarily (among some other influences) depends on the exact pixel distance between the resource patch and resource depot, which have different collision sizes between the races. | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
On February 09 2025 23:21 Freakling wrote: The assumptions that the other races would be similar is inherently flawed, as the frame duration of a worker trip primarily (among some other influences) depends on the exact pixel distance between the resource patch and resource depot, which have different collision sizes between the races. I just did a stream (okay it was basically solo since nobody wants to watch this kind of content live) checking out the Terran mining speed fastest patches on the left are #6, #8, #9 (although not by much, the first two are clearly the best) and the slowest are #2, #5, #7 with the rest being about equal on the right you get a nice boost on #7, manually boost #1, then #2, with the straight mining patches being about the same, #8, #9 and the back patches sucking | ||
|
iopq
United States880 Posts
3, 9 (when set up perfectly), 1/6 next patches should be 8, 4, 2, 5/7 For the right: 3/5/7 and boost 1 (it's slow otherwise) next patches should be 2, 6, 8, 4/9 | ||
| ||
