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Hi, I'm a C protoss player and I am having trouble against 3 gate obs. Basically this guy makes gate robo gate gate and then goons + obs, no reavers. I understand this is one of the safests builds you can do in PvP. He then applies pressure as he expands.
I usually go gate gate robo or gate robo gate and then reaver expand. I was wondering if there is a way to hard/soft counter the 3 gate obs BO that I just mentioned. Perhaps a timming window to push? Perhaps as soon as I have 2reavers+shuttle? What would be your advice against this particular build?
Thanks!
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1g reaver nex is a soft counter to it, although you'll want to avoid committing to the fight until the reaver pops, it may be a few seconds late to the party. battery helps keeping the reaver alive, so does goon positioning and e.g. pylons the most important part is not being late on your robo and reaver, though
2g obs nex is another one, as they'll need an extra production round from the 3gates before they're even on goons after travel time. 3 rounds of production will get them 1 extra goon, but by that time the numbers will be so high for both that defensive arc advantage may make it not matter (plus it gives you time to either get a reaver or 3rd gate of your own)
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if you want to go full all-in you can also just 4 gate goon allin yourself. but it s not a reliable strat. Any dt and you die essentially, and you need to end the game right there too. but if you hit as he expands it may work out for you.
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have you tried shield battery at your nat to help your reaver? that can be really effective if you get your expo up you can have it earlier than him unless he won't make actual use of his gates, then you have eco advantage or tech advantage due to already having reaver out btw robo being a bit forward close to exp is good, it's even possible to make robo at nat i think but hard
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Russian Federation102 Posts
in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it.
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On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it. Isn't this glitch historically banned in competitive play? The new generation is so savage
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These new kids have no honor :o
I find that skipping reaver if you’re low rank is the best way to win since it requires a lot of practice and attention/micro.
Maby you should also do 3g obs and try? It’s also a good idea to play the strategies you struggle to defeat. In that way you learn the weak spots of that strategy.
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Norway28255 Posts
On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it.
ya this is considered cheating. don't do that.
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On November 02 2021 15:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it. ya this is considered cheating. don't do that. I also like how he said "just counter it" but didn't actually answer OP's question. Now that I think about it, this was effectively a brag post mixed with a self-admission of abusing known bugs on ladder, lmao.
More to the point, 3g obs is meant to be a safe build that doesn't outright lose to anything. To put it more simply, it's not something you "just counter". Traditionally, the key to beating safe builds is to get ahead economically; in this case it could mean expanding with Reaver before the opponent does, or skipping Robo until after Nexus, as has been suggested above.
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First answer is the best one in my eyes.
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On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it.
Ladder is sadly full of wannabe bisu koreans doing this in PvZ / PvP - I hate these people.
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On November 02 2021 00:56 sanelicv wrote: Hi, I'm a C protoss player and I am having trouble against 3 gate obs. Basically this guy makes gate robo gate gate and then goons + obs, no reavers. I understand this is one of the safests builds you can do in PvP. He then applies pressure as he expands.
I usually go gate gate robo or gate robo gate and then reaver expand. I was wondering if there is a way to hard/soft counter the 3 gate obs BO that I just mentioned. Perhaps a timming window to push? Perhaps as soon as I have 2reavers+shuttle? What would be your advice against this particular build?
Thanks!
Hi,
as you said the 3 gate obs is not easy to counter as it is a safe bo. What you can do is expand faster and play defensivly, but you had to know he is doing this build.
At this point I am not sure if you are asking for a general PvP opening advice or just to be told for some counter.
Going 2 gate 2reaver push is an option, but keep in mind that you will get may looses with this bo vs 3gate obs. It is based a lot on micro managemant of the shuttle, witch can be very hard at C level.
A safer option vs 3gate obs can be: 1 gate, robo at ramp, reaver with no shuttle and nexus.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 02 2021 15:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it. ya this is considered cheating. don't do that. says who? none of us are playing in tournaments.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 02 2021 15:22 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2021 15:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it. ya this is considered cheating. don't do that. I also like how he said "just counter it" but didn't actually answer OP's question. Now that I think about it, this was effectively a brag post mixed with a self-admission of abusing known bugs on ladder, lmao. More to the point, 3g obs is meant to be a safe build that doesn't outright lose to anything. To put it more simply, it's not something you "just counter". Traditionally, the key to beating safe builds is to get ahead economically; in this case it could mean expanding with Reaver before the opponent does, or skipping Robo until after Nexus, as has been suggested above.
sorry i assumed he knew how pvp tech generally works since he said he has been playing many years. OP, if robo, go nexus and prepare to hold his one base reaver push. he will likely try a 2 gate reaver push, maybe 3 if he sees you expand. if he dt, go 3 gate goon obs. if he 4 gate, you can either go DT or 2 gate reaver with very delayed obs. DT isn't as risky as you may think here because a fast storm transition is very viable and works well if for whatever reason he doesn't die straight up. if he 3 gate obs, then you can go 1 gate robo nexus 2nd gate reaver. go straight reaver and make a shield battery at the nat because he will likely get aggressive, and battery synergizes extremely well with reaver. make sure you make robo near top of your ramp so that fatass can crawl its way down quicker.
if i am missing any other tech paths that you want to know how to counter then let me know, but those are the most common.
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On November 03 2021 02:50 confusedzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2021 15:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it. ya this is considered cheating. don't do that. says who? none of us are playing in tournaments. This is true. Tournaments dont dictate the ladder
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Russian Federation102 Posts
yes, and before someone says it, blizzard outright said flying scv is cheating. they have not said this for shift right click geyser. so thats not a valid comparison
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On November 03 2021 03:30 Timebon3s wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2021 02:50 confusedzerg wrote:On November 02 2021 15:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote: in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it. ya this is considered cheating. don't do that. says who? none of us are playing in tournaments. This is true. Tournaments dont dictate the ladder That's arguably only due to Blizzard's laissez-faire approach, if we are being generous in what we call it. Bugs like these have historically been banned from all competitive play, which includes ladder. By centralizing the competitive ladder on their own servers, which they provide no oversight for, they have removed the community's standards and management.
So yes, sure, you're not going to get banned for abusing these bugs (most likely). That's why we have legit hackers and bug abusers in the top 10 of ladder, at least from time to time (haven't checked recently). However, that doesn't mean that it isn't socially derided. If you want to be a ladder hero and gain points by abusing bugs which have historically been banned, good for you I guess.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
i think you are just Jealous.
you know what else is socially derided? cheesing. are you going to say that is cheating too?
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Norway28255 Posts
I mean, nobody is gonna ban you for using it in ladder, but I'm gonna consider you a cheater, and I'm gonna think that whatever mmr or win % you achieve is not legitimate, and if you did it against me in a practice game, I wouldn't bother playing with you again. I think that's a fairly common point of view. It is also banned in tournaments. Just because blizzard is too incompetent or ignorant or not caring to fix it doesn't mean it's okay.
Also, flying scv bug is a game-breaking bug. This is something that somewhat influences pvp and hardly matters at all for other matchups. Both being cheating doesn't mean both are equally important to address.
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I just don’t like the idea of tournament organizers being in charge of the online ladder. It’s fine if blizzard made rules for the ladder and said that this is illegal, or even better fixed the bug.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 03 2021 04:19 Liquid`Drone wrote: I mean, nobody is gonna ban you for using it in ladder, but I'm gonna consider you a cheater, and I'm gonna think that whatever mmr or win % you achieve is not legitimate, and if you did it against me in a practice game, I wouldn't bother playing with you again. I think that's a fairly common point of view. It is also banned in tournaments. Just because blizzard is too incompetent or ignorant or not caring to fix it doesn't mean it's okay.
Also, flying scv bug is a game-breaking bug. This is something that somewhat influences pvp and hardly matters at all for other matchups. Both being cheating doesn't mean both are equally important to address. well that's okay because people already say others don't deserve X mmr because of the race they play, or the cheese they do, things like this. so your opinion is in the same vein as those guys to me. but to label me the same thing people call a maphacker is overkill. its like if you are married and do some mild flirting with another woman for a few minutes then go on your way and never see her again. is that cheating? many people think so but it's not the same as if you inserted yourself inside her. i would much rather you call me an asshole than a cheater.
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On November 03 2021 05:22 confusedzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2021 04:19 Liquid`Drone wrote: I mean, nobody is gonna ban you for using it in ladder, but I'm gonna consider you a cheater, and I'm gonna think that whatever mmr or win % you achieve is not legitimate, and if you did it against me in a practice game, I wouldn't bother playing with you again. I think that's a fairly common point of view. It is also banned in tournaments. Just because blizzard is too incompetent or ignorant or not caring to fix it doesn't mean it's okay.
Also, flying scv bug is a game-breaking bug. This is something that somewhat influences pvp and hardly matters at all for other matchups. Both being cheating doesn't mean both are equally important to address. well that's okay because people already say others don't deserve X mmr because of the race they play, or the cheese they do, things like this. so your opinion is in the same vein as those guys to me. but to label me the same thing people call a maphacker is overkill. its like if you are married and do some mild flirting with another woman for a few minutes then go on your way and never see her again. is that cheating? many people think so but it's not the same as if you inserted yourself inside her. i would much rather you call me an asshole than a cheater. I would much rather that you shut up and think rather than post more but life is what it is.
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On November 03 2021 05:22 confusedzerg wrote: some mild flirting with another woman for a few minutes
This gave me the chuckles, thank you. I just wanna know what is coincided mild flirting in the region where you reside.
More to the point, I'd chime in with the general advice that once you realize you're up against that safe build, it's just best to play it safe yourself, expand with your reaver. Luckily for you there's plenty of games where pros do that to each other, I see it daily on streams as well. Just watch and see how they react, then try to copy.
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On November 03 2021 04:19 Liquid`Drone wrote: I mean, nobody is gonna ban you for using it in ladder, but I'm gonna consider you a cheater, and I'm gonna think that whatever mmr or win % you achieve is not legitimate, and if you did it against me in a practice game, I wouldn't bother playing with you again. I think that's a fairly common point of view. It is also banned in tournaments. Just because blizzard is too incompetent or ignorant or not caring to fix it doesn't mean it's okay.
Also, flying scv bug is a game-breaking bug. This is something that somewhat influences pvp and hardly matters at all for other matchups. Both being cheating doesn't mean both are equally important to address.
strong quote
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 03 2021 20:02 JoinTheRain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2021 05:22 confusedzerg wrote: some mild flirting with another woman for a few minutes This gave me the chuckles, thank you. I just wanna know what is coincided mild flirting in the region where you reside. More to the point, I'd chime in with the general advice that once you realize you're up against that safe build, it's just best to play it safe yourself, expand with your reaver. Luckily for you there's plenty of games where pros do that to each other, I see it daily on streams as well. Just watch and see how they react, then try to copy. if you say "you are pretty" and she goes "thank you you are handsome" and then you nod and go about your lives separately. does someone who does this deserve the same label as someone who attends brothel? and mr. jealous i will never stop posting my friend. luckily you dont have to read my posts.
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On November 03 2021 03:56 confusedzerg wrote: i think you are just Jealous.
you know what else is socially derided? cheesing. are you going to say that is cheating too?
It is more like playing football with your friends, using your hands to interact with a ball, denying you did it as there was no official judge around to punish you, insist that you didnt do it while doing it over and over. Outcome - you play "better" but everyone hates you and doesn't want to play with you.
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On November 03 2021 03:50 confusedzerg wrote: yes, and before someone says it, blizzard outright said flying scv is cheating. they have not said this for shift right click geyser. so thats not a valid comparison 'Blizzard' (at this point probably a part-time intern) doesn't even know about this bug I bet. Even when the game was played at a much more serious pro scene, they weren't aware of crashing happening with the hatchery bug, months after it appeared. so yeah..
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Well if these things weren't "illegal" in the past, Blizzard would've seen that this was an issue that needed fixing. Instead it was banned and thus you hindered the development of the game. Ever think of that?!?!
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Blizzard if I remember correctly has acknowledged this bug but can't fix it without completely reworking worker pathing which would mess with a lot of other stuff that is fair. Considering how few, if any, blizzard has working on this game its not worth the effort. Its just a lot easier if people don't abuse this glitch in competetive play rather than they instead mess with worker collision management that would make the gaming experience worse for everyone.
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On November 04 2021 20:45 Jumperer wrote: This isn't comparable to someone complaining about cheesing or playing an easier race like protoss, this is just straight up cheating. I agree with everything you said up to this point.
It isn't cheating just because a tournament host said so. There are a lot of bugs in this game are allowed. Glitching through minerals/buildings with vulture mines, burrowed zerglings etc. What about muta stacking? It's not cheating on the ladder just because it is in tournaments.
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Thank you everyone!
You've all been really helpful. I tried 1 gate robo reaver nexus + battery and it worked well. I could expand before the 3 gate obs, so I think it is fine. Now the problem is that the enemy will contain me with his goon superiority. Is there a right moment to push out? perhaps with 2 reavers+shuttle? Any advice is welcomed. Thank you again!
Ps. I also consider that glitching the probe to go up a ramp is bad manners. Don't worry I won't do that
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 04 2021 20:45 Jumperer wrote: The random bus driver once told me, "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should"
obviously there's moral gray area in everything. not many people would consider harmless flirting as cheating. In contrast, The majority of the population would consider sex with another woman as cheating.
Now this gaysers shift click trick, it's banned in all competitive tournaments and anyone who does it is looked down upon ever since the beginning of time because one is abusing a glitch in the game to get an advantage. Most competitive gaming communities have create rules to ban things such as wobbling in ssbm. This trick should be banned on ladder, but it isn't, because blizzard doesn't care, but as the random bus driver once said "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." You'll never be good at proper PvP, no one will plays with you. All you have is a slightly higher mmr than what you should be. This isn't comparable to someone complaining about cheesing or playing an easier race like protoss, this is just straight up cheating. in russia we have a saying. a man approaches the doctor and says "doctor, my anus hurts", and the doctor asks, "where exactly?" the man replies "at the entrance", and the doctor replies, "well it will hurt as long as you call it the entrance".
you can simply get vision of your opponent minerals with initial probe, shift right click new probe from your main somewhere in the middle of the map, then shift right click on his mineral. it create the same effect and zero difference. it is the same thing either way, the only "advantage" being you get to control when exactly you enter with the gas trick but that hardly matters. you can also use return cargo glitch, i have seen in ASL so must not be banned.
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If one tournament would ban it and all the others would not, than it would be really hard to call it cheating. But the gas glitch is forbidden in all the tournaments. It was also in the ICcup rules for laddering. Just Blizzard is behind in that.
So if you use it, you are a cheater!
On November 04 2021 23:54 sanelicv wrote:Thank you everyone! You've all been really helpful. I tried 1 gate robo reaver nexus + battery and it worked well. I could expand before the 3 gate obs, so I think it is fine. Now the problem is that the enemy will contain me with his goon superiority. Is there a right moment to push out? perhaps with 2 reavers+shuttle? Any advice is welcomed. Thank you again! Ps. I also consider that glitching the probe to go up a ramp is bad manners. Don't worry I won't do that
Good for you. PvP contains are good when there are reavers from bought sides. Otherwise escaping should not be too hard. Generally in this situations zealots are easyer to control than goons. Of course you had to have bought, and put zealots in front.
Keep in mind that as you are alredy expanded you do not need to brake the contain so fast. Expeccialy if your opponent expandend later than you. Because it means that you should catch up in units count.
The only big error you can do is not being patient and try to break too early. Also pay attention that if you go harass with shuttle and 2 reavers than you have 2 less reavers at your natural and you might end beeing busted.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 05 2021 00:26 Jumperer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 00:18 confusedzerg wrote:On November 04 2021 20:45 Jumperer wrote: The random bus driver once told me, "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should"
obviously there's moral gray area in everything. not many people would consider harmless flirting as cheating. In contrast, The majority of the population would consider sex with another woman as cheating.
Now this gaysers shift click trick, it's banned in all competitive tournaments and anyone who does it is looked down upon ever since the beginning of time because one is abusing a glitch in the game to get an advantage. Most competitive gaming communities have create rules to ban things such as wobbling in ssbm. This trick should be banned on ladder, but it isn't, because blizzard doesn't care, but as the random bus driver once said "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." You'll never be good at proper PvP, no one will plays with you. All you have is a slightly higher mmr than what you should be. This isn't comparable to someone complaining about cheesing or playing an easier race like protoss, this is just straight up cheating. in russia we have a saying. a man approaches the doctor and says "doctor, my anus hurts", and the doctor asks, "where exactly?" the man replies "at the entrance", and the doctor replies, "well it will hurt as long as you call it the entrance". you can simply get vision of your opponent minerals with initial probe, shift right click new probe from your main somewhere in the middle of the map, then shift right click on his mineral. it create the same effect and zero difference. it is the same thing either way, the only "advantage" being you get to control when exactly you enter with the gas trick but that hardly matters. you can also use return cargo glitch, i have seen in ASL so must not be banned. it creates the same effect but one requires you to have an initial vision of your opponent's mineral patches to start with, which makes it acceptable. The geyser gas trick you literally just run up the ramp for free. It is not the same. Everyone knows about the return cargo glitch, but we are talking about the specific case of glitching movement via geysers gas trick to get free scouting every single game. return cargo can do same thing if you spam and right click it through their units, i will use this then because ppl think thats okay when it same
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When it comes to glitches that can give an unfair advantage, my take is rather simple: If you think its ok that you use it, it should also be ok if other people use it against you.
If people dont want it to be used against them, they should not use it themselves.
Then, you have the socially acceptable norms. There is a reason it is not allowed in tournaments (because its considered unfair) and its not banable in ladder (because there is noone who cares about ladder who could do something about it).
5 year olds know when someone is using an unfair advantage in a game, its not like you need to be a rocket scientist to know if something is unfair or not.
We selectively choose to ignore them sometimes in different aspects of our lives, but that does not mean we cant see them (we just BS ourselves into rationalizing why this time its "not that bad").
There are 3 reason I see why NOT TO use these however:
1. People tend to dislike others that do this. In the long term, that hurts everyone. 2. You will learn less and become worse as a player by having an unfair advantage. 3. A lot of the enjoyment of Broodwar comes from the hard work it takes to get good enough to win against people who were better than you before. A large portion of that pleasure come from the struggle it takes to get there. Not gonna be there if you have an unfair advantage.
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How about that total recall bug? Won’t that also make people pissed, give you an unfair advantage etc? Some people claim it makes PvT unplayable and unfair, but as far as I know it’s not banned in any tournaments.
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On November 05 2021 21:01 Timebon3s wrote: How about that total recall bug? Won’t that also make people pissed, give you an unfair advantage etc? Some people claim it makes PvT unplayable and unfair, but as far as I know it’s not banned in any tournaments.
That's because it hasn't actually impacted tournament play enough for it to be banned? Whereas this has been banned for ages and there were already controversial moments where it was suspected that someone used it and it had to be proven that they didn't because it potentially changed the outcome of the game?
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Doesnt really matter though since its obviously taking an advantage of something thats not intended. Just because its not banned in tournaments YET doesnt mean it wont ruin the game of lower rankes players on the ladder.
Or is the ladder just for S ranked players and they get to dictate right and wrong?
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What is this fuss all about. Is the gas trick illegal on ladder? It's not. Will most people look down on you if they see you using it? Yes. If you are okay with being labelled as a cheater and have no moral problems using it, go ahead. It all comes down to social and statistical acceptance.
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On November 05 2021 21:20 Timebon3s wrote: Doesnt really matter though since its obviously taking an advantage of something thats not intended. Just because its not banned in tournaments YET doesnt mean it wont ruin the game of lower rankes players on the ladder.
Or is the ladder just for S ranked players and they get to dictate right and wrong? The competitive scene follows the modalities and standards of the upper echelons of the competitive scene. If every noob had a say in tournament, ladder, and general play, we'd all be forced to play 3v3 Fastest with no rush 10 minutes right now. But, because we have highly skilled players and (had) informed overseers for the competitive scene, a common set of standards had been reached and enforced based on the highest level of play, which shows what is broken and what is not, what should be allowed or not, and what can be overcome with skill or not.
So, in short, yes - the rules don't cater to scrubs, nor should they. If there is something you are struggling against in low level play that isn't banned in high level play, the solution is to get good. That simple.
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On November 05 2021 21:21 Bonyth wrote: What is this fuss all about. Is the gas trick illegal on ladder? It's not. Will most people look down on you if they see you using it? Yes. If you are okay with being labelled as a cheater and have no moral problems using it, go ahead. It all comes down to social and statistical acceptance. I don't think social acceptance is important for the 50% of the player base that names themselves ||||||||||||||
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On November 05 2021 21:38 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 21:20 Timebon3s wrote: Doesnt really matter though since its obviously taking an advantage of something thats not intended. Just because its not banned in tournaments YET doesnt mean it wont ruin the game of lower rankes players on the ladder.
Or is the ladder just for S ranked players and they get to dictate right and wrong? The competitive scene follows the modalities and standards of the upper echelons of the competitive scene. If every noob had a say in tournament, ladder, and general play, we'd all be forced to play 3v3 Fastest with no rush 10 minutes right now. But, because we have highly skilled players and (had) informed overseers for the competitive scene, a common set of standards had been reached and enforced based on the highest level of play, which shows what is broken and what is not, what should be allowed or not, and what can be overcome with skill or not. So, in short, yes - the rules don't cater to scrubs, nor should they. If there is something you are struggling against in low level play that isn't banned in high level play, the solution is to get good. That simple. In tournaments, yes. On the ladder which is accessible for everyone who purchased bw remastered, no.
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Norway28255 Posts
What this does is basically, you pay 50 minerals to turn on maphack for 10 seconds during a crucial period of pvp. It's not as bad as maphacking all the time every game (you won't get banned from the ladder doing that either), but it's much worse than not doing it at all.
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And that can be a good thing. In the famous words of Nony: “We can play PvP or we can flip a coin”
Now that your opponent can see what you’re doing for 10 seconds, pvp can be more a game of Starcraft instead of taking stupid risks like 3 gate goon no observer.
This, just like any other bug in Starcraft, is something the ladder meta has to account for.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 06 2021 01:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: What this does is basically, you pay 50 minerals to turn on maphack for 10 seconds during a crucial period of pvp. It's not as bad as maphacking all the time every game (you won't get banned from the ladder doing that either), but it's much worse than not doing it at all. you can target the probe. you say maphack? you also can shift click that is not banned. you always initial scout probe anyway. or use return cargo to bounce up the units which is same thing.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 05 2021 21:21 Bonyth wrote: What is this fuss all about. Is the gas trick illegal on ladder? It's not. Will most people look down on you if they see you using it? Yes. If you are okay with being labelled as a cheater and have no moral problems using it, go ahead. It all comes down to social and statistical acceptance. if i want social acceptance i play league of legends and steal your pierogi. i do neither. also you will not have social acceptance if you proxy gate every game. "cheeser" "cheater" potato potato.
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On November 06 2021 02:19 Timebon3s wrote: And that can be a good thing. In the famous words of Nony: “We can play PvP or we can flip a coin”
Now that your opponent can see what you’re doing for 10 seconds, pvp can be more a game of Starcraft instead of taking stupid risks like 3 gate goon no observer.
This, just like any other bug in Starcraft, is something the ladder meta has to account for.
Oh please not this kind of nonsense. Rain, Stork and Flash while randoming have very much shown that PvP is not a coinflip at all. How come a thread where someone ask help turns into this?
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Russian Federation102 Posts
yes just play like rain. that simple. also flash did gamble builds in his pvps.
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On November 06 2021 05:02 whaski wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 02:19 Timebon3s wrote: And that can be a good thing. In the famous words of Nony: “We can play PvP or we can flip a coin”
Now that your opponent can see what you’re doing for 10 seconds, pvp can be more a game of Starcraft instead of taking stupid risks like 3 gate goon no observer.
This, just like any other bug in Starcraft, is something the ladder meta has to account for.
Oh please not this kind of nonsense. Rain, Stork and Flash while randoming have very much shown that PvP is not a coinflip at all. How come a thread where someone ask help turns into this? Think I saw some ASL games where one of the P's just had to GG because DT's ran into his base.
Doesn't matter if you're the best protoss in the world, you can still be at a disadvantage in PvP if your opponent skips observers and you didnt go dts.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
this guy here is intelligent. and are many other things besides dt that can end game instantly solely based off opener. so all you have to do is go geyser trick to prevent one like this. sometimes, you want to see how a specific build will do against anything beside DT because that's just a risk you're willing to take with it. or maybe you want try a slightly greedy build that would be great provided the opponent wasn't 4gating, so you want practice for it. you can ask practice partner not to do this, but not peru on ladder.
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People who try to justify using the geyser waypoint worker walk up ramp then also need to justify using flying scvs (pre-patch) and geyser waypoint attacking with mass workers. They don't require third party programs, are all banned from tournaments and condemned by the community at large.
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Norway28255 Posts
(I realize this horse is beaten dead by now but..)
'I only turn on my maphack the first 2 minutes of the game in tvz games on 4 player maps, to see whether the zerg is a cheesing 9pooler' 'I only turn on my maphack during the period where I'm blind in tvt games because it sucks when they're doing a cheesy 2 starport' 'I only turn on my maphack during the beginning of pvz games on 4 player maps, to see whether I can get away with nexus before cannon' 'I only turn on my maphack against zergs who go 973, so I can see how many hydras they are building, so I don't overmake cannons for nothing' 'I only turn on my maphack early on in zvz, so I don't end up going hatch first vs 9pool'
Brood war is a game of incomplete information. Mind games revolving around exploiting your opponent being blind for a certain period of time is and has always been a big part of the game. There's nothing unique about pvp in this regard - you're only really susceptible to dying against dt rushes if you are trying to be a gambling player yourself. Going robo first every game is absolutely viable - especially in ladder.
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You say bw is a game of incomplete information. I can say it’s an incomplete game, where a lot of bugs exist and the meta has evolved around clever use of game mechanics.
Like muta micro, worker glitching, vultures glitching through buildings with spider mines, hold lurker, “total recall”, burrowing lings on top of each other and glitch them into bases etc etc. There are even maps designed for abusing bugs, like Monty Hall and outsider.
It’s not up to tournament hosts to decide what goes or not on the public ladder. Either everything goes or nothing goes, and if it really is detrimental to the gameplay, blizzard will fix it, like they did to flying scv.
Just because it’s illegal in tournaments, people haven’t bothered to find a way to play around it, and you just assume it can’t be beaten becuz no1 ever tried, which is a lazy and whiny approach to it IMO.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 06 2021 16:45 chillzzz wrote: People who try to justify using the geyser waypoint worker walk up ramp then also need to justify using flying scvs (pre-patch) and geyser waypoint attacking with mass workers. They don't require third party programs, are all banned from tournaments and condemned by the community at large. two issue with what you say my friend 1. flying scv new glitch with only sc remaster 2. blizzard said flying scv is banned.
now, mr. drone, you cannot compare using third party cheat to walking up ramp with probe. i think you are perhaps being Disingenuous, yes?
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 06 2021 19:45 Jumperer wrote: I changed my mind, I agree with confusedzerg and Timebon3s now. It's time to stop the tyranny of these broodwar elitists and let the game be played the way it was supposed to be played. These people think they can make all the rules to prevent us lower classes from rising up to their level. What's the differences between people like flash bisu jaedong and people like confusedzerg and Timebon3s? Why do they get to dictate all the rules? This is an act of oppression. I skip observer every game why the hell should I risk losing an entire game to 1 stupid unit DT build. There are many other things besides dt that can end game instantly solely based off opener. so all you have to do is go geyser trick to prevent one like this. Mr. Gorbachev, It's time to tear down the wall. It's time to make geyser gas trick legal TO MAKE STARCRAFT GREAT AGAIN. please no talking about gorbachev my friend...
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Northern Ireland20680 Posts
On November 06 2021 22:09 Timebon3s wrote: You say bw is a game of incomplete information. I can say it’s an incomplete game, where a lot of bugs exist and the meta has evolved around clever use of game mechanics.
Like muta micro, worker glitching, vultures glitching through buildings with spider mines, hold lurker, “total recall”, burrowing lings on top of each other and glitch them into bases etc etc. There are even maps designed for abusing bugs, like Monty Hall and outsider.
It’s not up to tournament hosts to decide what goes or not on the public ladder. Either everything goes or nothing goes, and if it really is detrimental to the gameplay, blizzard will fix it, like they did to flying scv.
Just because it’s illegal in tournaments, people haven’t bothered to find a way to play around it, and you just assume it can’t be beaten becuz no1 ever tried, which is a lazy and whiny approach to it IMO. Is there a way to play around it? It’s a trick to bypass a ramp block, unless there’s some glitch that counters that specific glitch somehow, where is the counter play?
Blizzard barely touch the game anymore, and in the past have said they can’t fix this bug without doing fundamental work to pathing of workers.
It’s not some all or nothing no bugs or all bugs approach.
Quake would be considerably worse without strafe-jumping, a bug that added some fun elements. If some bloke discovered a way to clip through walls, well either you play slow Quake without strafe-jumping techniques or fast bullshit Quake with people running through solid works. Neither of which sounds too fun to me.
Over literal decades community convention has a pretty damn good grasp on funky bugs that make the game more dynamic, and bullshit bugs that go against the spirit of fair competition.
Nobody is some champion of truth and integrity by just deciding hey let’s start abusing mechanics the wider community have shunned for years so they can get ladder points.
I don’t understand why you seem to have the idea outlawing this glitch is done on the personal whim of x tournament organiser rather than being reflective of the wider unwritten community code of conduct, or that only Blizzard’s pronouncements in this domain carry any legitimacy.
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On November 06 2021 02:19 Timebon3s wrote: And that can be a good thing. In the famous words of Nony: “We can play PvP or we can flip a coin”
Now that your opponent can see what you’re doing for 10 seconds, pvp can be more a game of Starcraft instead of taking stupid risks like 3 gate goon no observer.
This, just like any other bug in Starcraft, is something the ladder meta has to account for.
They were saying ZvZ is a coinflip. Than Jeadong had a ZvZ winrate od 90% for over a year.
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