PvP advice for noob

On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote:
in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it.

On November 02 2021 11:58 confusedzerg wrote:
in early game when you both have a zealot and dragoon, take your probe and shift right click it on his geyser a ton at his natural. then shift right click inside his main and push up his ramp with your goon and zealot. i have 77% winrate pvp because the probe goes through and you scout his tech and just counter it.

On November 02 2021 00:56 sanelicv wrote:
Hi, I'm a C protoss player and I am having trouble against 3 gate obs.
Basically this guy makes gate robo gate gate and then goons + obs, no reavers. I understand this is one of the safests builds you can do in PvP. He then applies pressure as he expands.

I usually go gate gate robo or gate robo gate and then reaver expand.
I was wondering if there is a way to hard/soft counter the 3 gate obs BO that I just mentioned. Perhaps a timming window to push? Perhaps as soon as I have 2reavers+shuttle? What would be your advice against this particular build?

Thanks!

On November 02 2021 15:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:


ya this is considered cheating. don't do that.

On November 02 2021 15:22 Jealous wrote:

I also like how he said "just counter it" but didn't actually answer OP's question. Now that I think about it, this was effectively a brag post mixed with a self-admission of abusing known bugs on ladder, lmao.

More to the point, 3g obs is meant to be a safe build that doesn't outright lose to anything. To put it more simply, it's not something you "just counter". Traditionally, the key to beating safe builds is to get ahead economically; in this case it could mean expanding with Reaver before the opponent does, or skipping Robo until after Nexus, as has been suggested above.

On November 03 2021 02:50 confusedzerg wrote:

says who? none of us are playing in tournaments.

On November 03 2021 04:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean, nobody is gonna ban you for using it in ladder, but I'm gonna consider you a cheater, and I'm gonna think that whatever mmr or win % you achieve is not legitimate, and if you did it against me in a practice game, I wouldn't bother playing with you again. I think that's a fairly common point of view. It is also banned in tournaments. Just because blizzard is too incompetent or ignorant or not caring to fix it doesn't mean it's okay.

Also, flying scv bug is a game-breaking bug. This is something that somewhat influences pvp and hardly matters at all for other matchups. Both being cheating doesn't mean both are equally important to address.

On November 03 2021 05:22 confusedzerg wrote:
some mild flirting with another woman for a few minutes

On November 03 2021 04:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean, nobody is gonna ban you for using it in ladder, but I'm gonna consider you a cheater, and I'm gonna think that whatever mmr or win % you achieve is not legitimate, and if you did it against me in a practice game, I wouldn't bother playing with you again. I think that's a fairly common point of view. It is also banned in tournaments. Just because blizzard is too incompetent or ignorant or not caring to fix it doesn't mean it's okay.

Also, flying scv bug is a game-breaking bug. This is something that somewhat influences pvp and hardly matters at all for other matchups. Both being cheating doesn't mean both are equally important to address.

On November 03 2021 20:02 JoinTheRain wrote:


This gave me the chuckles, thank you. I just wanna know what is coincided mild flirting in the region where you reside.

More to the point, I'd chime in with the general advice that once you realize you're up against that safe build, it's just best to play it safe yourself, expand with your reaver. Luckily for you there's plenty of games where pros do that to each other, I see it daily on streams as well. Just watch and see how they react, then try to copy.

On November 03 2021 03:56 confusedzerg wrote:
i think you are just Jealous.

you know what else is socially derided? cheesing. are you going to say that is cheating too?

On November 03 2021 03:50 confusedzerg wrote:
yes, and before someone says it, blizzard outright said flying scv is cheating. they have not said this for shift right click geyser. so thats not a valid comparison

On November 04 2021 20:45 Jumperer wrote:
This isn't comparable to someone complaining about cheesing or playing an easier race like protoss, this is just straight up cheating.

On November 04 2021 20:45 Jumperer wrote:
The random bus driver once told me, "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should"

obviously there's moral gray area in everything. not many people would consider harmless flirting as cheating. In contrast, The majority of the population would consider sex with another woman as cheating.

Now this gaysers shift click trick, it's banned in all competitive tournaments and anyone who does it is looked down upon ever since the beginning of time because one is abusing a glitch in the game to get an advantage. Most competitive gaming communities have create rules to ban things such as wobbling in ssbm. This trick should be banned on ladder, but it isn't, because blizzard doesn't care, but as the random bus driver once said "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." You'll never be good at proper PvP, no one will plays with you. All you have is a slightly higher mmr than what you should be. This isn't comparable to someone complaining about cheesing or playing an easier race like protoss, this is just straight up cheating.

On November 04 2021 23:54 sanelicv wrote:
Thank you everyone!

You've all been really helpful. I tried 1 gate robo reaver nexus + battery and it worked well.
I could expand before the 3 gate obs, so I think it is fine.
Now the problem is that the enemy will contain me with his goon superiority.
Is there a right moment to push out? perhaps with 2 reavers+shuttle?
Any advice is welcomed.
Thank you again!

Ps. I also consider that glitching the probe to go up a ramp is bad manners. Don't worry I won't do that

On November 05 2021 00:26 Jumperer wrote:


it creates the same effect but one requires you to have an initial vision of your opponent's mineral patches to start with, which makes it acceptable. The geyser gas trick you literally just run up the ramp for free. It is not the same. Everyone knows about the return cargo glitch, but we are talking about the specific case of glitching movement via geysers gas trick to get free scouting every single game.

On November 05 2021 21:21 Bonyth wrote:
What is this fuss all about. Is the gas trick illegal on ladder? It's not. Will most people look down on you if they see you using it? Yes. If you are okay with being labelled as a cheater and have no moral problems using it, go ahead.
It all comes down to social and statistical acceptance.

On November 05 2021 21:38 Jealous wrote:

The competitive scene follows the modalities and standards of the upper echelons of the competitive scene. If every noob had a say in tournament, ladder, and general play, we'd all be forced to play 3v3 Fastest with no rush 10 minutes right now. But, because we have highly skilled players and (had) informed overseers for the competitive scene, a common set of standards had been reached and enforced based on the highest level of play, which shows what is broken and what is not, what should be allowed or not, and what can be overcome with skill or not.

So, in short, yes - the rules don't cater to scrubs, nor should they. If there is something you are struggling against in low level play that isn't banned in high level play, the solution is to get good. That simple.

On November 06 2021 01:30 Liquid`Drone wrote:
What this does is basically, you pay 50 minerals to turn on maphack for 10 seconds during a crucial period of pvp. It's not as bad as maphacking all the time every game (you won't get banned from the ladder doing that either), but it's much worse than not doing it at all.

On November 05 2021 21:21 Bonyth wrote:
What is this fuss all about. Is the gas trick illegal on ladder? It's not. Will most people look down on you if they see you using it? Yes. If you are okay with being labelled as a cheater and have no moral problems using it, go ahead.
It all comes down to social and statistical acceptance.

On November 06 2021 02:19 Timebon3s wrote:
And that can be a good thing.
In the famous words of Nony: “We can play PvP or we can flip a coin”

Now that your opponent can see what you’re doing for 10 seconds, pvp can be more a game of Starcraft instead of taking stupid risks like 3 gate goon no observer.

This, just like any other bug in Starcraft, is something the ladder meta has to account for.

On November 06 2021 05:02 whaski wrote:


Oh please not this kind of nonsense. Rain, Stork and Flash while randoming have very much shown that PvP is not a coinflip at all. How come a thread where someone ask help turns into this?

On November 06 2021 16:45 chillzzz wrote:
People who try to justify using the geyser waypoint worker walk up ramp then also need to justify using flying scvs (pre-patch) and geyser waypoint attacking with mass workers. They don't require third party programs, are all banned from tournaments and condemned by the community at large.

On November 06 2021 19:45 Jumperer wrote:
I changed my mind, I agree with confusedzerg and Timebon3s now. It's time to stop the tyranny of these broodwar elitists and let the game be played the way it was supposed to be played. These people think they can make all the rules to prevent us lower classes from rising up to their level. What's the differences between people like flash bisu jaedong and people like confusedzerg and Timebon3s? Why do they get to dictate all the rules? This is an act of oppression. I skip observer every game why the hell should I risk losing an entire game to 1 stupid unit DT build. There are many other things besides dt that can end game instantly solely based off opener. so all you have to do is go geyser trick to prevent one like this. Mr. Gorbachev, It's time to tear down the wall. It's time to make geyser gas trick legal TO MAKE STARCRAFT GREAT AGAIN.

On November 06 2021 22:09 Timebon3s wrote:
You say bw is a game of incomplete information.
I can say it’s an incomplete game, where a lot of bugs exist and the meta has evolved around clever use of game mechanics.

Like muta micro, worker glitching, vultures glitching through buildings with spider mines, hold lurker, “total recall”, burrowing lings on top of each other and glitch them into bases etc etc.
There are even maps designed for abusing bugs, like Monty Hall and outsider.

It’s not up to tournament hosts to decide what goes or not on the public ladder. Either everything goes or nothing goes, and if it really is detrimental to the gameplay, blizzard will fix it, like they did to flying scv.

Just because it’s illegal in tournaments, people haven’t bothered to find a way to play around it, and you just assume it can’t be beaten becuz no1 ever tried, which is a lazy and whiny approach to it IMO.

On November 06 2021 02:19 Timebon3s wrote:
And that can be a good thing.
In the famous words of Nony: “We can play PvP or we can flip a coin”

Now that your opponent can see what you’re doing for 10 seconds, pvp can be more a game of Starcraft instead of taking stupid risks like 3 gate goon no observer.

This, just like any other bug in Starcraft, is something the ladder meta has to account for.