On January 23 2014 22:32 fencer wrote: Oh I wish there were replays from like 1998 of 'good' people playing. My only memories from back then is when I typed in "power overwhelming" on b.net and expected it to work.
And constant backstabbing in 2v2; if you had the stronger army than your ally when you had almost won, it was more or less standard to unally at the last second and have the win for yourself.
Yah, plenty of d!cks on Bnet even from the very start.
For example, I remember playing a 1v2 back in '98 shortly after release, with me as the '1'... don't remember why I agreed to it, I think the two guys said they were absolutely terrible, and 1v2 was the only way they'd play 'cuz of that.
Of course, they were not quite as bad as they said (big surprise, not), but I lasted surprisingly long. I was Zerg, they were both Terran. At one point they tried to storm my main with like 24 or 36 marines, but the ramp made them go single-file, and I had tech'd fast & had literally just hatched 4 guardians they hadn't scouted. Which were well-positioned.
Was amazing to see ALL the marines die one after another and the guards get barely nicked.
But the 2v1 finally took its toll, and I was about to lose. They then both started 'Siskel and Ebert-ing' me like they thought they were gosu pros. "Oh, you were so strong with that guardian thing, but to see you fall apart like this now is just so sad." Incredulous, I typed in, "Hey, it's 2v1, IDIOTS. If you're so great, why can't you play 1v1, LOL?". I left the game.
It's really too bad you can't reach through the screen and smack feebs upside the head.
THen there were the ppl who'd make 'backstabber' websites, where backstabbers would post screenshots of their exploits and share stories of how cool they thought they were. The most-prized screenshots were ones where the backstab-ees were msging, begging not to be backstabbed/the loss was somehow a huge deal to them.
Never got b-stabbed myself, because my main interest was 1v1... but I thought the whole thing a giant douchebag fiesta.
On January 18 2014 13:02 rauk wrote: yes, zvp is imba in favor of z by like 5%ish in the proscene and is considerably easier than that if you're not a pro.
rauk wrote: vs C level and a little better protosses i found that sniping HT with even just mutas is excessive/unnecessary, just 1a2a3a and spread your hydras vs storm and that's really all you need to win.
basically just make stuff and amove works at C and below, no need to get fancy
Not to turn it into an imba thread, but what would you say is the root of the ZvP imba?
Is it that mass hydra macro off of early expand trumps zeal/goon/templar or zeal/goon/reaver too easily?
Plus 'toss can't pressure Z strongly enough early on to really contest/stop the Z expand, usually?
Or is it something else IYO other than 'Captain Obvious' -type stuff?
On January 23 2014 12:52 BigFan wrote: I would love a hyper game mode XD
And a dozen cups of coffee to go with it.
I rarely drink coffee(once in a full moon)
On January 23 2014 19:03 SilverSkyLark wrote: Scouts. Dark Archons, but their skills are really really useful, esp the one that is like Statis but you get to hit them, but it only works on organic units.
On January 23 2014 12:08 [[Starlight]] wrote:I can't confirm it, and I was hanging out on the Blizzard Starcraft forum for like a couple of years prior to release and for a couple of years after. I think they were surprised that Fastest became almost the only speed anyone would play (though you could find some games on Fast or Faster too).
I think a lot of ppl just gravitate to whatever is seen as the most EXTREEEEEEME, lol.
Probably if Blizzard had put in a speed called 'Hyper' that was 3x faster than Fastest, a lot of ppl would play it, maybe even insist on it.
Their micro and macro would then suck donkey lint, but they'd play it.
Oh I wish there were replays from like 1998 of 'good' people playing. My only memories from back then is when I typed in "power overwhelming" on b.net and expected it to work. And constant backstabbing in 2v2; if you had the stronger army than your ally when you had almost won, it was more or less standard to unally at the last second and have the win for yourself.
I remember being backstabbed in 3v5c games before. Sometimes the guy would end up allying us after he destroyed our army and about to finish our bases but most times, it wasn't the case. I was emotionally scarred after that It did add an interesting aspect to the game though and I would prefer that the option to unally your opponent in team games to be available(in SCII I mean) .
On January 23 2014 19:03 SilverSkyLark wrote: Scouts. Dark Archons, but their skills are really really useful, esp the one that is like Statis but you get to hit them, but it only works on organic units.
yep, lots of backstabbers on the bnet server, it's happened to me I think 4 or 5 of my 7 losses over there. as for the "late game" argument: Every race's "late game" is different, for zerg it's about 22-28 minutes in, and if you have no hive by that point it's probably because you've either already lost or were forced to relocate half-way across the map(which isn't much better tbh). Protoss, it's more or less any time they please, really. Provided they didn't get squashed in the first 10-15 minutes and have gained map control, anyway. Terran's late game is about 30-35 minutes(if the game lasts that long, and it shouldn't, imho). Anyway, that stuff is more than a bit off topic.
stuff I either don't build or rarely do build(feel free to laugh at some of the noobness):
ZERG! my primary race 1. defilers - they are largely only useful for protecting mass ground units vs air to ground fire(darks warm), or plaguing other zerg units/structures prior to an assault. not many actually play zerg, and any air units are easily sniped by hydras/scourge, so no biggy if one decides they want to skip it.
2. Queens - yes I know I'm an awful zerg player for not doing so. When I do build them, it's usually an after thought or I'm just toying with someone who doesn't know any better then to protect their flank. but a well placed parasite can be crucial, though and I recognize this...I'm just lazy. love spawn broodlings though.. especially vs scvs, tanks, goliaths, and medics. for me the queens nest is largely just an annoying obstacle in my way of getting to hive tech(love my ultras too).
3. infested terran - this is more of a taunt than being remotely effective outside of dropping them on some pour noobs worker stream. I won't even bother infesting a command center unless it's heavily damaged and escaping. Even then it's more about me rubbing salt in the wound. ---------- Protoss:
1. reavers - there simply are more cost effective ways to do damage(DTs/Archons come to mind), nothing better to fend off mass zerg ground units though while staying out of range. best suited for cheap arbiter mass recall drops behind enemy lines. they are just too expensive, and time consuming to build(counting upgrades and scarabs).
2. scouts - why? because for about 150-200 more resources I can build carriers instead. mass 'sairs has anti-air handled for the most part anyway. However, I will(rarely) build ONE, and only that one..for the following reason: hallucinations(very under used spell I might add). yeah, yeah, D-web can shut down the turrets/cannon/spore colony, but it doesn't last long, and costs a bunch of energy to use. but with 6 HTs you can create 12-24 fake scouts, and send them in front of your shuttles, and take all the damage instead. you could do this with the shuttles instead, but honestly that'd just make the other player focus fire on the shuttles instead of the much more annoying scout with their air units. not as useful against terrans however as EMP shockwaves would just immediately dispell the hallucinations.
3. high templar - for any other reason then Archons with the only exception of what I've listed above. I'll miss more often then not with the psionic storms anyway.
4. Dragoons - they are almost as slow moving as they are at firing and tend to bottleneck preventing any reasonable ground troop movement. for the most part though they are just queen fodder. I've used them a few times, but only in recall drops for that reason. IMO, you're much better off making archons(which are immune to broodling spawns, and move much faster) instead.
5. Shuttles - scourge bait - like with terrans, I tend to either forget about them, or I'd prefer using an arbiter in their place. ------------
Terran(my secondary race)
I make pretty much everything in semi-small numbers until I can mass battle-cruisers, wraiths and valks(it's worth noting I don't usually have to even build a BC, because I've usually won before the first one came out). I think the only thing I don't really build(unless I'm on an island map) is dropships(mostly I forget they even exist). Usually, early game I'm just awful but mid to late game I do pretty well. . .I blame my crappy Macro gameplay(my expo timings need serious work). Ghosts, I'll always keep 3 in my base for defense(lockdown) or nuke runs(late game obviously). admittedly I don't make as many medics as are usually necessary(almost always regret not making two more, as I stop at 5/group) . I do heavily favor Vultures and Goliaths though. mix in some M&Ms and you've a hell of an attack force(provided you micro those vultures well anyway). for air defense wraiths and valks; usually 1 wraith for every 3 valk. or 1 wraith per 2 valks. air attack comes in, cloak the wraiths and micro them when possible.
On January 30 2014 14:18 imzesok wrote: I blame my crappy Macro gameplay(my expo timings need serious work). Ghosts, I'll always keep 3 in my base for defense(lockdown) or nuke runs(late game obviously)
you're the first person on here to say they make ghosts lol. I made them in a TvT today for the first time but it was more after I knew I lost and wanted to see how far I can get with nukes.
On January 30 2014 14:18 imzesok wrote: yep, lots of backstabbers on the bnet server, it's happened to me I think 4 or 5 of my 7 losses over there. as for the "late game" argument: Every race's "late game" is different, for zerg it's about 22-28 minutes in, and if you have no hive by that point it's probably because you've either already lost or were forced to relocate half-way across the map(which isn't much better tbh). Protoss, it's more or less any time they please, really. Provided they didn't get squashed in the first 10-15 minutes and have gained map control, anyway. Terran's late game is about 30-35 minutes(if the game lasts that long, and it shouldn't, imho). Anyway, that stuff is more than a bit off topic.
stuff I either don't build or rarely do build(feel free to laugh at some of the noobness):
ZERG! my primary race 1. defilers - they are largely only useful for protecting mass ground units vs air to ground fire(darks warm), or plaguing other zerg units/structures prior to an assault. not many actually play zerg, and any air units are easily sniped by hydras/scourge, so no biggy if one decides they want to skip it.
2. Queens - yes I know I'm an awful zerg player for not doing so. When I do build them, it's usually an after thought or I'm just toying with someone who doesn't know any better then to protect their flank. but a well placed parasite can be crucial, though and I recognize this...I'm just lazy. love spawn broodlings though.. especially vs scvs, tanks, goliaths, and medics. for me the queens nest is largely just an annoying obstacle in my way of getting to hive tech(love my ultras too).
3. infested terran - this is more of a taunt than being remotely effective outside of dropping them on some pour noobs worker stream. I won't even bother infesting a command center unless it's heavily damaged and escaping. Even then it's more about me rubbing salt in the wound. ---------- Protoss:
1. reavers - there simply are more cost effective ways to do damage(DTs/Archons come to mind), nothing better to fend off mass zerg ground units though while staying out of range. best suited for cheap arbiter mass recall drops behind enemy lines. they are just too expensive, and time consuming to build(counting upgrades and scarabs).
2. scouts - why? because for about 150-200 more resources I can build carriers instead. mass 'sairs has anti-air handled for the most part anyway. However, I will(rarely) build ONE, and only that one..for the following reason: hallucinations(very under used spell I might add). yeah, yeah, D-web can shut down the turrets/cannon/spore colony, but it doesn't last long, and costs a bunch of energy to use. but with 6 HTs you can create 12-24 fake scouts, and send them in front of your shuttles, and take all the damage instead. you could do this with the shuttles instead, but honestly that'd just make the other player focus fire on the shuttles instead of the much more annoying scout with their air units. not as useful against terrans however as EMP shockwaves would just immediately dispell the hallucinations.
3. high templar - for any other reason then Archons with the only exception of what I've listed above. I'll miss more often then not with the psionic storms anyway.
4. Dragoons - they are almost as slow moving as they are at firing and tend to bottleneck preventing any reasonable ground troop movement. for the most part though they are just queen fodder. I've used them a few times, but only in recall drops for that reason. IMO, you're much better off making archons(which are immune to broodling spawns, and move much faster) instead.
5. Shuttles - scourge bait - like with terrans, I tend to either forget about them, or I'd prefer using an arbiter in their place. ------------
Terran(my secondary race)
I make pretty much everything in semi-small numbers until I can mass battle-cruisers, wraiths and valks(it's worth noting I don't usually have to even build a BC, because I've usually won before the first one came out). I think the only thing I don't really build(unless I'm on an island map) is dropships(mostly I forget they even exist). Usually, early game I'm just awful but mid to late game I do pretty well. . .I blame my crappy Macro gameplay(my expo timings need serious work). Ghosts, I'll always keep 3 in my base for defense(lockdown) or nuke runs(late game obviously). admittedly I don't make as many medics as are usually necessary(almost always regret not making two more, as I stop at 5/group) . I do heavily favor Vultures and Goliaths though. mix in some M&Ms and you've a hell of an attack force(provided you micro those vultures well anyway). for air defense wraiths and valks; usually 1 wraith for every 3 valk. or 1 wraith per 2 valks. air attack comes in, cloak the wraiths and micro them when possible.
And ppl were getting mad at me just because I didn't make Arbiters much?
A lesson in perspective.
Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post. But that's okay, the cool ppl will help you out, and the uncool ppl will identify themselves by their actions.
Yo imzesok, you should watch some professional Brood War and see how they play You'll be amazed by what units they use! That's assuming you're not trolling of course You could start with this, for example:
On January 30 2014 14:18 imzesok wrote: yep, lots of backstabbers on the bnet server, it's happened to me I think 4 or 5 of my 7 losses over there. as for the "late game" argument: Every race's "late game" is different, for zerg it's about 22-28 minutes in, and if you have no hive by that point it's probably because you've either already lost or were forced to relocate half-way across the map(which isn't much better tbh). Protoss, it's more or less any time they please, really. Provided they didn't get squashed in the first 10-15 minutes and have gained map control, anyway. Terran's late game is about 30-35 minutes(if the game lasts that long, and it shouldn't, imho). Anyway, that stuff is more than a bit off topic.
stuff I either don't build or rarely do build(feel free to laugh at some of the noobness):
ZERG! my primary race 1. defilers - they are largely only useful for protecting mass ground units vs air to ground fire(darks warm), or plaguing other zerg units/structures prior to an assault. not many actually play zerg, and any air units are easily sniped by hydras/scourge, so no biggy if one decides they want to skip it.
2. Queens - yes I know I'm an awful zerg player for not doing so. When I do build them, it's usually an after thought or I'm just toying with someone who doesn't know any better then to protect their flank. but a well placed parasite can be crucial, though and I recognize this...I'm just lazy. love spawn broodlings though.. especially vs scvs, tanks, goliaths, and medics. for me the queens nest is largely just an annoying obstacle in my way of getting to hive tech(love my ultras too).
3. infested terran - this is more of a taunt than being remotely effective outside of dropping them on some pour noobs worker stream. I won't even bother infesting a command center unless it's heavily damaged and escaping. Even then it's more about me rubbing salt in the wound. ---------- Protoss:
1. reavers - there simply are more cost effective ways to do damage(DTs/Archons come to mind), nothing better to fend off mass zerg ground units though while staying out of range. best suited for cheap arbiter mass recall drops behind enemy lines. they are just too expensive, and time consuming to build(counting upgrades and scarabs).
2. scouts - why? because for about 150-200 more resources I can build carriers instead. mass 'sairs has anti-air handled for the most part anyway. However, I will(rarely) build ONE, and only that one..for the following reason: hallucinations(very under used spell I might add). yeah, yeah, D-web can shut down the turrets/cannon/spore colony, but it doesn't last long, and costs a bunch of energy to use. but with 6 HTs you can create 12-24 fake scouts, and send them in front of your shuttles, and take all the damage instead. you could do this with the shuttles instead, but honestly that'd just make the other player focus fire on the shuttles instead of the much more annoying scout with their air units. not as useful against terrans however as EMP shockwaves would just immediately dispell the hallucinations.
3. high templar - for any other reason then Archons with the only exception of what I've listed above. I'll miss more often then not with the psionic storms anyway.
4. Dragoons - they are almost as slow moving as they are at firing and tend to bottleneck preventing any reasonable ground troop movement. for the most part though they are just queen fodder. I've used them a few times, but only in recall drops for that reason. IMO, you're much better off making archons(which are immune to broodling spawns, and move much faster) instead.
5. Shuttles - scourge bait - like with terrans, I tend to either forget about them, or I'd prefer using an arbiter in their place. ------------
Terran(my secondary race)
I make pretty much everything in semi-small numbers until I can mass battle-cruisers, wraiths and valks(it's worth noting I don't usually have to even build a BC, because I've usually won before the first one came out). I think the only thing I don't really build(unless I'm on an island map) is dropships(mostly I forget they even exist). Usually, early game I'm just awful but mid to late game I do pretty well. . .I blame my crappy Macro gameplay(my expo timings need serious work). Ghosts, I'll always keep 3 in my base for defense(lockdown) or nuke runs(late game obviously). admittedly I don't make as many medics as are usually necessary(almost always regret not making two more, as I stop at 5/group) . I do heavily favor Vultures and Goliaths though. mix in some M&Ms and you've a hell of an attack force(provided you micro those vultures well anyway). for air defense wraiths and valks; usually 1 wraith for every 3 valk. or 1 wraith per 2 valks. air attack comes in, cloak the wraiths and micro them when possible.
And ppl were getting mad at me just because I didn't make Arbiters much?
A lesson in perspective.
Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post. But that's okay, the cool ppl will help you out, and the uncool ppl will identify themselves by their actions.
It's great that you're into BW, best RTS ever.
being told that you're not good at a game isn't the same thing as hazing, especially if it's obviously true
@imzesok
there's a lot of resources for noobs like yourself and if you follow standard build orders its surprising how fast you can improve. try liquipedia. pvt build i recommend doing 2 base arbiters since it's pretty simple. pvz is hard no matter what build you choose, so you might as well go +1 sair speedlot. just for reference goons are absolute must build units in pvp and pvt and either HT or reaver are essential in pvz and to a lesser extent pvp. like these units are so essential that you get crushed if you don't have them
On January 30 2014 22:31 rauk wrote: being told that you're not good at a game isn't the same thing as hazing, especially if it's obviously true
@imzesok
there's a lot of resources for noobs like yourself and if you follow standard build orders its surprising how fast you can improve. try liquipedia. pvt build i recommend doing 2 base arbiters since it's pretty simple. pvz is hard no matter what build you choose, so you might as well go +1 sair speedlot. just for reference goons are absolute must build units in pvp and pvt and either HT or reaver are essential in pvz and to a lesser extent pvp. like these units are so essential that you get crushed if you don't have them
Well, Zesok's already acknowledged his newb status in his post, so I'm not sure why he'd have to be told... he knows. And yeah, there's always a few ppl who are into making fun of or insulting others in order to feel big themselves. That'd be hazing. What I'm saying is that's uncool, while helping others is cool.
Thanks for helping him.
to zesok: You say Zerg is your primary race. I suggest that you take another look at Defilers, they can be absolutely HUGE in late game. Dark Swarm is wonderful, especially against Terrans, and Plague can take the starch out of whole armies, while Consume lets you keep on casting in a way other spell-units can't.
And Defilers aren't even expensive either, not for what they do. One of the Zerg's MVP units, really.
And ppl were getting mad at me just because I didn't make Arbiters much?
I love Arbiters, and do make them just about every game I do play as protoss(which is admittedly not often).
Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post.
as a noob, it's expected at least a half-dozen times, regardless of what type of community you join online; sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones, lol
It's great that you're into BW, best RTS ever.
agreed
--------------- @birdie ty for the link- downloading now. as for the trolling part...no, I have a life, lol. I try hard not to feed them as well. I do enjoy watching the pro replays. another of my sins in SC(probably the most grievous of them all): I forget to hotkey my buildings! I'm reminded of this everytime I watch one of these replays, it's so easy to do it while it's building
@rauk I already do look over liquipedia from time to time...have for years. mostly for zerg/terran strategy though always happy to take advice for protoss though, despite me almost never using them. and shame on me(now that I'm awake and have read my own post) for forgetting to build a shield battery in at least half those games! I kick myself every time I don't do it...I usually need it.
@[[Starlight]] yeah, I'm aware Defilers can be a good investment, they just don't have a long life expectancy. it's what? 100 min, 150 gas(guess I'll have to start a game and see)? anyhow, I end up putting off researching consume, because I it's just so easy to make large numbers of them and wait...and as I said above: I'm lazy, lol. but yeah, I have been trying to make them more often lately. It's just a really late game unit, so I typically, just don't get around to it.
I'm actually far more ashamed that I don't research and use the queens ensnare ability, especially since I know full well how effective it is. not to mention how cheap per cast is(75 or 100 i think). I do the +energy, and broodlings, but entirely forget the ensnare when I do make them. --
was right on the ensare, it is 75 energy/cast, off on the defiler cost by 50 minerals and gas(50 mineral, 100 gas). sometimes I forget I have the Prima strategy guides 4 feet away to consult for these things, lol. oh well.
Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post.
as a noob, it's expected at least a half-dozen times, regardless of what type of community you join online; sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones, lol
--------------- @birdie ty for the link- downloading now. as for the trolling part...no, I have a life, lol. I try hard not to feed them as well. I do enjoy watching the pro replays. another of my sins in SC(probably the most grievous of them all): I forget to hotkey my buildings! I'm reminded of this everytime I watch one of these replays, it's so easy to do it while it's building
@rauk I already do look over liquipedia from time to time...have for years. mostly for zerg/terran strategy though always happy to take advice for protoss though, despite me almost never using them. and shame on me(now that I'm awake and have read my own post) for forgetting to build a shield battery in at least half those games! I kick myself every time I don't do it...I usually need it.
@[[Starlight]] yeah, I'm aware Defilers can be a good investment, they just don't have a long life expectancy. it's what? 100 min, 150 gas(guess I'll have to start a game and see)? anyhow, I end up putting off researching consume, because I it's just so easy to make large numbers of them and wait...and as I said above: I'm lazy, lol. but yeah, I have been trying to make them more often lately. It's just a really late game unit, so I typically, just don't get around to it.
I'm actually far more ashamed that I don't research and use the queens ensnare ability, especially since I know full well how effective it is. not to mention how cheap per cast is(75 or 100 i think). I do the +energy, and broodlings, but entirely forget the ensnare when I do make them. --
was right on the ensare, it is 75 energy/cast, off on the defiler cost by 50 minerals and gas(50 mineral, 100 gas). sometimes I forget I have the Prima strategy guides 4 feet away to consult for these things, lol. oh well.
the prima guides are many patches/years out of date.... lol
i don't mention a shield battery at all? they're only built in some pvp or pvt rush/proxy situations that i'm not really clear on but you'd never see them in pvz, you definitely shouldn't be building them in 99% of games
defilers aren't a "late" game unit... they're a timing critical unit that you should be aiming to start building by 12-13 minutes in zvt because they're absolutely necessary to repel the terran push on the zerg natural. you need to start researching consume as soon as your defiler mound finishes so you can push back vs mnm + tank with dark swarm or else you lose your natural. in zvp you don't need them to not lose the game since you can fight toss army head on with lair tech but you need them to break toss expoes because of cannons
are you trolling ? i cant tell, this should all be really obvious if you've been reading liquipedia guides on builds
I personally started longing for the good old days of 98 where I would play games like imzesok.. playing with 2 hatcheries and two expansions with 20 drones total and just trying to be incredibly cost effective with burrowing defilers at random places around the map so I could plague clumps of units.. Stuff like playing 2v2 with my brother, me zerg him terran, using shitloads of time and energy on both plaguing and emping protoss units. Him giving me a free command centre to infest before he even expanded himself - obviously stupid as infested terrans usually don't pay for themselves in the first place.. stuff like timing how long stasis lasted and how long nuke took to launch so we could first stasis units and then nuke them 40 or whatever seconds later (back then we'd be playing on fast) and they'd be unstasised right about the time the nuke landed..
High level 1v1 bw is amazing, but it's also incredibly stressful. Playing at a much slower pace and at a much lower level opened strategical opportunities that are now lost.
Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post.
as a noob, it's expected at least a half-dozen times, regardless of what type of community you join online; sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones, lol
--------------- @birdie ty for the link- downloading now. as for the trolling part...no, I have a life, lol. I try hard not to feed them as well. I do enjoy watching the pro replays. another of my sins in SC(probably the most grievous of them all): I forget to hotkey my buildings! I'm reminded of this everytime I watch one of these replays, it's so easy to do it while it's building
@rauk I already do look over liquipedia from time to time...have for years. mostly for zerg/terran strategy though always happy to take advice for protoss though, despite me almost never using them. and shame on me(now that I'm awake and have read my own post) for forgetting to build a shield battery in at least half those games! I kick myself every time I don't do it...I usually need it.
@[[Starlight]] yeah, I'm aware Defilers can be a good investment, they just don't have a long life expectancy. it's what? 100 min, 150 gas(guess I'll have to start a game and see)? anyhow, I end up putting off researching consume, because I it's just so easy to make large numbers of them and wait...and as I said above: I'm lazy, lol. but yeah, I have been trying to make them more often lately. It's just a really late game unit, so I typically, just don't get around to it.
I'm actually far more ashamed that I don't research and use the queens ensnare ability, especially since I know full well how effective it is. not to mention how cheap per cast is(75 or 100 i think). I do the +energy, and broodlings, but entirely forget the ensnare when I do make them. --
was right on the ensare, it is 75 energy/cast, off on the defiler cost by 50 minerals and gas(50 mineral, 100 gas). sometimes I forget I have the Prima strategy guides 4 feet away to consult for these things, lol. oh well.
just wanted to say that defilers are a must build unit in ZvT imo. If there's any unit aside from ultras that give me trouble in TvZ, it's defilers lol. Having to be constantly active with my vessels to try and irridate them while macroing at home and watching my army is a bit much to do for players of my caliber(D level) so once a defiler is on the field and I'm pushed back to my exp with dark swarm, it's usually gg lol.
On February 01 2014 02:05 Liquid`Drone wrote: I personally started longing for the good old days of 98 where I would play games like imzesok.. playing with 2 hatcheries and two expansions with 20 drones total and just trying to be incredibly cost effective with burrowing defilers at random places around the map so I could plague clumps of units.. Stuff like playing 2v2 with my brother, me zerg him terran, using shitloads of time and energy on both plaguing and emping protoss units. Him giving me a free command centre to infest before he even expanded himself - obviously stupid as infested terrans usually don't pay for themselves in the first place..
stuff like timing how long stasis lasted and how long nuke took to launch so we could first stasis units and then nuke them 40 or whatever seconds later (back then we'd be playing on Fast) and they'd be unstasised right about the time the nuke landed...
High level 1v1 bw is amazing, but it's also incredibly stressful. Playing at a much slower pace and at a much lower level opened strategical opportunities that are now lost.
Great post. And I feel somewhat similarly.
It's the weird, wacky, wonderful offbeat stuff adds so much flavor to Starcraft. Yes, the progamers are amazing, and you can learn tons from watching them (and I'm starting to, occasionally). But, back in the early days of SC, one of the things I really dug was when 'regular Joe' players would try to pull off innovative crap, or would make amazing comebacks that they shouldn't be able to, or in general would 'just try stuff'. And if you're playing vs less than gosu competition, sometimes it works, and it's awesome and very fun when it does.
I remember a guy in TvT who was getting his worker line at an expansion wiped out by my squadron of cloaked wraiths. He had nuke-rushed apparently (a strat that would probably get you killed vs anyone real good, I assume), so as I'm gunning down his SCVs, I hear "Nuclear launch detected!". I run my wraiths away to just off-screen in terror. I wait awhile... and wait... no nuke explosion sound. I come back, and he's got a bunch of turrets just about completing. Total psych job. Very nice. And it worked, 'cuz he nuke-rushed.
Or there was the time I got zealot rushed, in TvP... he went all-in on my main, I didn't see it coming quite in time, and I hadn't expanded yet (had been saving cash for it). He loses most of his troops, but he gets me. All my surviving workers run away, and my CC is on fire before it lifts off (tried to hold out too long). It blows up in midair. I have 423 minerals in the bank. One of my 'exodus' SCVs makes a new CC in a remote spot. I have a very few troops, some workers, and a few 'exodus' floating buildings that touch down in the spot. Somehow, someway, I claw my way all the way back and win, with the coup de grace being a stimmed firebat drop from a d-matrixed dropship into his main's mineral line. Would any of this have had a prayer in an 'oh so serious' match? Doubt it.
Also agree that it was very fun playing on Fast. You had more time to micro and do wacky, cool, fun stuff, and, well, enjoy yourself. While still being rewarded for your macro, if it was any good.
If one is super-duper into the programer scene and playing 'the right way', there's obviously nothing wrong with that, you do have to admire the high-APM Fastest crowd that's trying so hard to emulate the programers and 'be all they can be'. But there's also a part of you that occasionally feels like saying, "Why so serious?".
Just my .02, I know that view may be a rare or unpopular one.
On January 18 2014 13:02 rauk wrote: yes, zvp is imba in favor of z by like 5%ish in the proscene and is considerably easier than that if you're not a pro.
rauk wrote: vs C level and a little better protosses i found that sniping HT with even just mutas is excessive/unnecessary, just 1a2a3a and spread your hydras vs storm and that's really all you need to win.
basically just make stuff and amove works at C and below, no need to get fancy
Not to turn it into an imba thread, but what would you say is the root of the ZvP imba?
Is it that mass hydra macro off of early expand trumps zeal/goon/templar or zeal/goon/reaver too easily?
Plus 'toss can't pressure Z strongly enough early on to really contest/stop the Z expand, usually?
Or is it something else IYO other than 'Captain Obvious' -type stuff?
Honestly macro is at such a high level now it seems like protoss cant doa nything, and with easy sim city its impossible to stop zerg from jus massing and raping you
On February 01 2014 02:05 Liquid`Drone wrote: I personally started longing for the good old days of 98 where I would play games like imzesok.. playing with 2 hatcheries and two expansions with 20 drones total and just trying to be incredibly cost effective with burrowing defilers at random places around the map so I could plague clumps of units.. Stuff like playing 2v2 with my brother, me zerg him terran, using shitloads of time and energy on both plaguing and emping protoss units. Him giving me a free command centre to infest before he even expanded himself - obviously stupid as infested terrans usually don't pay for themselves in the first place..
stuff like timing how long stasis lasted and how long nuke took to launch so we could first stasis units and then nuke them 40 or whatever seconds later (back then we'd be playing on Fast) and they'd be unstasised right about the time the nuke landed...
High level 1v1 bw is amazing, but it's also incredibly stressful. Playing at a much slower pace and at a much lower level opened strategical opportunities that are now lost.
Great post. And I feel somewhat similarly.
It's the weird, wacky, wonderful offbeat stuff adds so much flavor to Starcraft. Yes, the progamers are amazing, and you can learn tons from watching them (and I'm starting to, occasionally). But, back in the early days of SC, one of the things I really dug was when 'regular Joe' players would try to pull off innovative crap, or would make amazing comebacks that they shouldn't be able to, or in general would 'just try stuff'. And if you're playing vs less than gosu competition, sometimes it works, and it's awesome and very fun when it does.
I remember a guy in TvT who was getting his worker line at an expansion wiped out by my squadron of cloaked wraiths. He had nuke-rushed apparently (a strat that would probably get you killed vs anyone real good, I assume), so as I'm gunning down his SCVs, I hear "Nuclear launch detected!". I run my wraiths away to just off-screen in terror. I wait awhile... and wait... no nuke explosion sound. I come back, and he's got a bunch of turrets just about completing. Total psych job. Very nice. And it worked, 'cuz he nuke-rushed.
Or there was the time I got zealot rushed, in TvP... he went all-in on my main, I didn't see it coming quite in time, and I hadn't expanded yet (had been saving cash for it). He loses most of his troops, but he gets me. All my surviving workers run away, and my CC is on fire before it lifts off (tried to hold out too long). It blows up in midair. I have 423 minerals in the bank. One of my 'exodus' SCVs makes a new CC in a remote spot. I have a very few troops, some workers, and a few 'exodus' floating buildings that touch down in the spot. Somehow, someway, I claw my way all the way back and win, with the coup de grace being a stimmed firebat drop from a d-matrixed dropship into his main's mineral line. Would any of this have had a prayer in an 'oh so serious' match? Doubt it.
Also agree that it was very fun playing on Fast. You had more time to micro and do wacky, cool, fun stuff, and, well, enjoy yourself. While still being rewarded for your macro, if it was any good.
If one is super-duper into the programer scene and playing 'the right way', there's obviously nothing wrong with that, you do have to admire the high-APM Fastest crowd that's trying so hard to emulate the programers and 'be all they can be'. But there's also a part of you that occasionally feels like saying, "Why so serious?".
Just my .02, I know that view may be a rare or unpopular one.
I like this post lol. Unfortunately, I don't remember much from my 1vs1 days(the few games I've played) but you're right. Part of what makes the game fun is when you are able to do wacky strats and end up having a back and forth game. Winning a close game makes it even better. That nuke idea is genius! lol. I played a TvZ a year back where I wanted to go for 2 port wraith. I ended up one basing but eventually I lost my timing and such so I just kept building wraiths and expanded trying to get back to the MMT composition. I ended up stopping at about a control group of wraiths and went around trying to make them worth their cost(my opponent went mass hydras+lurkers >.> lol). I ended up get dropped twice but both times(or at least the first one), the wraiths ended up saving the day by sniping OLs then just cleaning up his units. Eventually, we both were starving for resources(only a small amount saved up) and had a back and forth micro battle in his main. I ended up just barely edging him out with 2 tanks+vessel lol.
Not sure what it's like to play on Fast or even remember if I tried it but atm I think micro seems fine at fastest. I feel like there's enough time to do what needs to be done so I can only imagine fast would feel painfully slow after playing at fastest.
If you're used to fastest I think it's kinda impossible to really enjoy fast. But the game speed isn't why the game is so stressful at high levels, it's because players are so good. There wouldn't be any significant drop in apm if top players started playing on fast; they would just do even more because even at the very highest levels of play there is a whole lot of room for theoretical improvement.
EPT
