Units You Never Bother Making?

On December 28 2013 03:26 traceurling wrote:
Also you rarely see cattlebruisers

On December 28 2013 03:49 Jumperer wrote:
Dark templars

On December 28 2013 03:13 ninazerg wrote:


...what?

You could just, you know, click on the tournament threads and find some VODs/replays of recent games played. Lots of people are using Queens and Valkyries, just not every game. However, you will be very hard-pressed to find a PvT with no Arbiters.

On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2.

On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2.

On December 28 2013 10:01 thezanursic wrote:

Ammm no... Not at all, it doesn't work that way... By that logic scout/tank is nearly unbeatable in bgh so the protoss should be rushing for MC while massing scouts in PvT to possess a SCV and make a bunch of tanks...

If something is bad it's bad. Another game using a cheap unimaginative version of the samr spell won't make it more popular.

On December 28 2013 10:27 arb wrote:

that'd be awesome in bgh

On December 28 2013 04:29 thezanursic wrote:
If you don't use arbiters you must be pretty bad...

Queens are pretty good in ZvT imho
DA is pretty good in PvZ
Ghosts are occasionally used in TvP lategame vs carriers
Valks are pretty good in certain situations in TvZ and TvT
And lastly the only legit use of scouts I've seen was ForGG vs Kal(?) on Colloseum where Kal went nex first into a really fast 2 base carriers vs a 3 fact (?) so he killed a couple of tqnks + forced turrets, goliaths, he ended breaking out and winning the game. In that specific game not making scouts would probably be the wrong move.

List:

1. Infested Terran
2. Scout
3. Ghost
4. Valk
5. DA
6. Queen

On December 28 2013 04:10 traceurling wrote:

Maybe you should start building detection...might help you see DTs

On December 28 2013 10:27 arb wrote:

that'd be awesome in bgh

On December 28 2013 12:56 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Yup. Because the entire litmus test of whether a player is good or not is whether they use Arbiters.

That alone decides if you're gosu or not.

On December 28 2013 15:14 thezanursic wrote:
TLDR:
Arbiters are a good skill to have

On December 28 2013 01:19 [[Starlight]] wrote:
I'm coming back to BW after being away for several years. Just curious as to the 'state of the game' in 2013 (almost 2014).

For myself, IIRC, the units I never seemed to find myself making were:

1. Queens
2. Dark Archons
3. Infested Terrans
4. Valks
5. Ghosts (don't know why, they can be pretty good)
6. Arbiters
7. Scouts (do make these occasionally, just not often/not in big numbers)


Have things changed much since then, and some of these units are actually very popular now? If so, how are they usually employed?

On December 28 2013 19:08 Kenpachi wrote:
Nobody uses D-web but I do. It's my ace in the hole. They adapt to my fleet beacon with anti carrier turrets and goliaths when they see it but they see me rollin in with a million dragoons and corsairs. can't stop it
D+ strategy.

Or they try to kill me before I get going. I think I die then

On December 28 2013 08:50 Falling wrote:

I don't think so. If I remember correctly, just before SC2 came out, Zerg's mutalisk micro had gotten to a point in PvZ where it was really hard for Protoss to hang out into their high templar if they ever lost air control. And after getting high templar after templar sniped, the zerg's would just maul the Protoss with a massive army because Protoss didn't have AoE. There seemed to be quite a few shifts in metagame including DA usage with maelstroms to trap (or Bisu's super fast early zlot variant) and then kespa switched and we didn't see too much. But it seems to me that the DA use would be traced back to that time period more so.

On December 28 2013 15:42 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Maybe it's more accurate to say that you can be a good player without arbiters, but if you use 'em and use 'em well, you'll be a better player for it.

On December 29 2013 02:15 hitthat wrote:
Devourers are usefull late ZvZ only. And we all know how often we have late ZvZ....

On December 28 2013 17:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Btw, is the valk 'sprite bug' still in effect?

Been away from BW for a long time, but IIRC, if you had more than 4 or so valks in an engagement, not all of their missiles would work because of some inherent limit or bug in the game.

Perhaps that's part of why valks never became that popular a unit? Dunno.

On December 29 2013 03:52 jello_biafra wrote:

The sprite bug is still in effect but it normally only happens on money maps because they're full of sprites, in a regular 1v1 you can have 12 or more valks and they will all fire in battle.

On another note, anyone remember that map that had a neutral CC in the middle that zerg could infest? Infested terrans are better in ZvP than in ZvT.

On December 29 2013 02:15 hitthat wrote:
Devourers are usefull late ZvZ only. And we all know how often we have late ZvZ....

On December 28 2013 17:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Btw, is the valk 'sprite bug' still in effect?

Been away from BW for a long time, but IIRC, if you had more than 4 or so valks in an engagement, not all of their missiles would work because of some inherent limit or bug in the game.

Perhaps that's part of why valks never became that popular a unit? Dunno.

On December 29 2013 09:44 Peeano wrote:
The [valk sprite] bug still exists. I love using valkyries in TvZ and from my experience having more than 7-8 valks to attack the same area, doesn't do more dps to that area.

On December 29 2013 01:41 Golondrin wrote:
A zerg player that doesn't use defilers is just bad. Same can be said about a protoss and arbiters.

Are devourers so bad now nobody even include them in their lists?

On December 29 2013 11:46 [[Starlight]] wrote:
@Birdie – Yep, exactly, the 'sairs would terrorize my air for awhile before the devs would come out, and then the tables would turn.

And just as you say, once they had a certain critical mass of 'sairs, scourge alone couldn't do much.

On December 29 2013 13:44 Birdie wrote
Usually by the time you have hive tech, it's much more efficient to use crackling defiler lurker than to try for air control, particularly as Protoss will have templar tech out by then.

Did you ever play on iCCup or the other private servers?

On December 29 2013 15:58 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Yep, for sure. But sometimes you don't have too much choice, like on island maps, or land maps that have island bases on them that you want to take out (Temple).



Nope. I was out of BW long before iCCup showed up.

I was in a small league for awhile though. It was fun, extremely laid-back I guess by TL standards.

On December 29 2013 03:35 ninazerg wrote:


So we basically agree that Zergs who don't use defilers can be good? You just make 'em and use 'em and shake 'em and bake 'em and then it can make you an even better player.

On December 29 2013 10:33 [[Starlight]] wrote:

I use defilers. Am I a good zerg player?

For 'toss, to be fair, it was the race I played least, and a lot of those games didn't go to late game for me... I'd either clean the other person's clock in early or mid-game, or get mine cleaned. And my opponents didn't seem to use arbiters much, and when they did, it wasn't terribly effectively.

In retrospect it seems obvious that I played against 'okay' players, not real good ones. Which is why I'm asking you nice folks things.

Far as devourers go, I remember using them. Ppl are saying they only work in ZvZ, but they were helpful to me in ZvP too... typical usage would be, "ZOMG, my air's getting pwned by 'sairs!". And then a combined force of devs, scourge, and mutas would then pwn their 'sairs right back.

Devs saved my scaly zerg behind more than once. Is that atypical?

On December 29 2013 16:46 Birdie wrote:
Yeah island maps aren't usually used any more in tournaments.

I wasn't really around when they were so I'm not sure why (perhaps one race was imba on island maps?).

On December 29 2013 17:25 rauk wrote:
kwanro would never build a defiler if he didn't have to, bless his heart

seems more like you played against other players who were "casual" and don't really care about learning the way the game is played, not "okay" players

typically in zvp when toss has a whole control group of +1 sairs you won't even be close to greater spire so if you try to depend on devourers to take back air control you're going to have no overlords for a pretty long time

On December 29 2013 19:29 [[Starlight]] wrote:

I dunno rauk... they were in a league, so I don't think I'd call 'em straight casual.

Now, did they sit around watching progamer replays all day long, in hopes of reaching something approaching that level? Nope, I will confess they did not. But they did play lots, and they had a good time doin' it. To me, that's the most important thing.



As Birdie and I were discussing, there are things you do stopgap to try to deal with sairs 'til the devs come out. Your ovies definitely can't roam far from home while the 'toss has air superiority, I think we all get that.

On December 29 2013 19:33 rauk wrote:
you can be in a league and still be casual

if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story

you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras

On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:
That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match

On December 29 2013 20:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:

And you can be in a league and be not casual. So?

Far as dev usage making you a 'bad player', I dunno... devs + scourge + mutas sure beat 'sairs for me. Maybe the other guy just didn't have enough sairs?

Your points on ground-attacking a guy going heavy air are well-taken, and I agree that's a good way to go where possible.

But, I couldn't really mass ground-attack his island base with his sairs shooting down the drop attempts, y'know?

On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:
That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match

On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:
using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs.

you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply

maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about

also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways

On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:


using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs. you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply

maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about

also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways



if he's never even played iccup/pgt/wgt it would be an extremely boring grudge match lol

On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:


using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs. you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply

maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about

also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways



if he's never even played iccup/pgt/wgt it would be an extremely boring grudge match lol

On December 29 2013 22:17 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Sigh. Okay, I'm starting to understand TL better now. There's a LOT of experienced ppl with, ahem, strong opinions who like to jump right in and express them. I actually dig that.

But, the issue is, insufficient data/not really getting where someone's coming from. So, since you seem to care about this and are experienced, I'll flesh out the picture for you, Rauk. Then I think you'll be able to critique in a more-knowing way, and I'll be happy to accept said critique (unless it's extremely douchey).

So, to my best recollection, an example of what I'm talking about (this was a tourney game in the 'just for fun' league I used to play in):

Me and this other guy had one of our best-of-3 games on Lost Temple. He was Protoss, I was Zerg. I got the top position, and he got the eastern plateau.

I don't remember what happened in early game, but by midgame I had a shit-ton of hydras camped just outside his natural. He would try to break out from time to time with storm plus speedy zels and goons, but he would get beaten back every time. On the ground, he was contained.

He had 3 bases total: His main, his natural, and the island at lower-right. I had 4 or 5 bases (maybe 5 most of the time). At times he'd 'convoy' out via air (ovie transports) and try to expand, or would drop on or near one of my smaller and further-away expansions. For awhile I'd beat back his drops with my very-mobile mutas, and would clobber his fledling expansion attempts with same. But then he got 'sairs.

My mutas were going poof then, so it was mostly up to speed hydras plus a lot of scouting to defend my expos and snuff his. My ovies couldn't leave their bases. But I had enough of a resource advantage that I could send hydras all over the map and STILL maintain my hydra contain on his main + natural. He wasn't able to establish a base beyond the 3 mentioned.

His main offense (beside the 'sairs and the failed breakout attempts) was to arbiter recall a bunch of goons into my main from time to time. But, I had several sunkens there, which would last just long enough so that the hydra cavalry from my contain could ride to the rescue and wipe out what was left of his 'goons. I'd lose the sunkens and a few hydras, but it was a fair trade and one I was willing to make considering I had more resources. He was punching himself out.

Nor could he break the contain while I was splitting my forces, because he was splitting forces too. Though in retrospect, the 'hydra cavalry' would've been faster had I made some Nydus Canals, as the observers to the match noted at the end. D'oh!

Though the flip side of that is, he kept on doing the recalls because to him they looked like they were ALMOST working. Had I had Nyduses, he might've gone a different, and better, route. I guess a mistake can work in your favor sometimes (though Nyduses to defend my expos would've been real nice, had I thought of it...)

I also got to scourge a couple of those Arbiters, 'til he got more careful with his air support.

Anyhow, his main was pretty much mined out, and his natural was getting there. It became obvious that his island expo was the main thing keeping him going. I think I tried to drop on it once, but sairs helped mess that up, along with some spore colonies.

I really, really, REALLY hated his sairs by this time. So I got devs.

I had lost every air battle up to this point (if you don't count scourging a couple of his arbiters), so it was really satisfying when my mixed air force beat him in the pivotal air battle. Devs went in first, drawing fire and putting some acid spores on him, scourges hit his flanks from both sides, and then the mutas (spaced out as best I could manage) came in. Acid spores let muta splash/richochets do a LOT of damage.

With his air superiority gone, a doom drop took out the island. GG.

So, there's an example. You're free to tell me I suck from an INFORMED perspective now.

(Sigh, TL. Thy name is drama.)

On December 30 2013 02:31 sluggaslamoo wrote:


It depends what your playstyle is. If you open 3 hatch muta +1 cara in which case you are often going to transition into guardians anyway, having a few devourers to stop protoss from regaining air-dominance late game isn't such a bad idea.

Thing is we didn't get to see much of muta/scourge ZvP because it developed just at the time Proleague transitioned to SC2. Protosses gave up trying to regain air-dominance and tried to take it on the ground but they would get finished by guardians. I'm pretty sure if the Protoss responded by building more sairs, that the Zerg would probably consider getting just a few devourers to slow him down and allow the transition to guardians.

On December 30 2013 01:16 traceurling wrote:
I think the point of devourers being good vs sairs isn't midgame he's going sairs I'll go devourers, it's oh late game he's going sairs (maybe with carrier) a couple devourers will help

On December 30 2013 21:09 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Yup.

On December 30 2013 07:03 rauk wrote:
look at it from our [?] perspective: a newbie who hasn't played in a very long time is trying to tell active players who are relatively higher level that they're wrong.

you were claiming that devourers should be a standard response to sairs.

from the way you described the rest of the game there are a lot of things wrong with what you were doing

first, nydus once you have hive is standard and you should have a nydus from your natural to each expo so you can be very mobile in your defense

second, you contained with hydras instead of lurkers. with a lurker field you can stop him from breaking out with a much lower investment in the forces outside his natural; he has to use reavers + obs and that's easy to snipe with speed overlords and scourge. you also didn't build lurkers and spores along with the sunkens for defense in the late game, because that plus cracklings means protoss has to commit his entire army to break a base. third, you didn't build defilers. if you're trying to break his natural, you need dark swarm. defilers are also great against sairs because you can plague them all and then they're completely useless. fourth, late game and no crackling/ultra? cracklings destroy goons so hard and are much faster than hydras, so if you tried to defend his goon recalls with cracklings instead of hydras you'd be trading maybe 300-400 minerals for 1k+ minerals and gas, which is way more efficient than hydras. plus crackling ultra wipes goon zeal so hard, and it doesn't sound like you had any problems with archons or reavers

sair carrier almost never happens because it requires protoss to turtle for an incredibly long time and you can break him long before he begins any kind of carrier production with drops or just swarm and amove. if he attempts to go 2 base carrier then he's lost the game anyways

On December 30 2013 21:21 rauk wrote:


sair carrier almost never happens because it requires protoss to turtle for an incredibly long time and you can break him long before he begins any kind of carrier production with drops or just swarm and amove. if he attempts to go 2 base carrier then he's lost the game anyways

also plague is a much better option in that case because if you plague his interceptors they go back inside the carrier and don't regen hp and carriers don't send out interceptors with low hp so his carriers literally sit there doing nothing. since you research plague to begin with in a standard zvp unless you started off with a mass muta midgame and aimed to go for guardians there's still no real reason to get a greater spire

On December 30 2013 22:51 Chef wrote:
I think [sair carrier] was quite popular on Arcadia, Requiem and Andromeda. Any map that is good for corsair reaver is ok to transition into carriers as well. Basically any map where protoss can get a lot of bases and take advantage of islands with an air fleet and 3+ gases. On Arcadia it felt like literally every PvZ sometimes.

Similar to queen usage in ZvT. It's a response to a huge mech army on several bases. Devs are a response to a huge corsair fleet. Valks are a response to huge wraith fleets.

All Brood War units are beautiful But the games Starlight is describing are in no way too bad or too nooby. His league may be a microcosm and everyone in it may be have 80 APM, but it's still good competition between them. I really enjoyed when I played in a microcosm like that. It forces players to try to innovate on their own, and that is part of the joy of SC.

On December 29 2013 17:25 rauk wrote:


kwanro would never build a defiler if he didn't have to, bless his heart


*snip*

On December 29 2013 04:13 traceurling wrote:

Holy World it was an interesting map....

On January 02 2014 14:49 slytown wrote:
It's hard to find a map where u can secure the gas for cattlebruisers in the non-mirrors. However, TvT it's still viable but I'd say cattlebruisers still.

On December 28 2013 19:08 Kenpachi wrote:
D-Web Sairs

Except nobody uses D-web but I do. It's my ace in the hole. They adapt to my fleet beacon with anti carrier turrets and goliaths when they see it but they see me rollin in with a million dragoons and corsairs. can't stop it
D+ strategy.

Or they try to kill me before I get going. I think I die then

I also had a B- player mass ghosts vs me. I was thoroughly traumatized

On January 04 2014 18:55 digmouse wrote:
Someone doesn't bother make Arbiters? Really?

On January 04 2014 22:25 myminerals wrote:
Does anybody know a pro game with infested terrans?
Who played it?

On January 05 2014 03:28 Loffeman wrote:


There was a map wih a neutral cc in the midle. Can't remember wich game it was but it was a pvz and the protoss got wrecked becaus of the infested terrans. No suprise they removed the map latrer

On January 05 2014 00:54 ninazerg wrote:
I've decided to bully you more and let you know that Battlecruisers are applicable to TvT.

I hope my incredible, awful level of drama in this post does not discourage you from participating in our angry, but close-knit society.

Birdie wrote:
I wouldn't call it hazing lol, just we know we're right and you're wrong

On January 05 2014 15:08 ninazerg wrote:
Birdie, this is some gritty, hardcore, soap-opera level drama. We need to drag [[Starlight]]'s good name through a pile of mud just to let him know who's in charge.

On January 08 2014 02:51 ninazerg wrote:

Don't starting making winking faces just yet. You've only gone through phase one of your initiation. There are three phases in your rite of passage into teamliquid. Be ready for anything and everything.

On January 08 2014 10:38 fencer wrote:
Legitimate use of scouts in a pro game:

the rockmanxx wrote:
There are no mid game air to ground units in BW
Like the void ray or banshee
So scout are useless -.-

On January 08 2014 10:38 fencer wrote:
Legitimate use of scouts in a pro game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM7TZvLEqLg

On January 09 2014 11:52 RageCommodore wrote:
No, I didn't know that That's interesting. Do you know how big the AS slow value is? If it's big enough it might just semicounter stim (I don't belive that though).

On January 09 2014 12:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ensnare is amazing vs m&m and the only reason it's not constantly used is that zerg is capable of winning without, and it's kinda tricky to implement queens without quite some practice. them still not being a staple zvt unit just shows how there's still room for strategic improvement.

On December 28 2013 01:19 [[Starlight]] wrote:
I'm coming back to BW after being away for several years. Just curious as to the 'state of the game' in 2013 (almost 2014).

For myself, IIRC, the units I never seemed to find myself making were:

1. Queens
2. Dark Archons
3. Infested Terrans
4. Valks
5. Ghosts (don't know why, they can be pretty good)
6. Arbiters (okay yes, I should start using these more)
7. Scouts (do make these occasionally, just not often/not in big numbers)

Have things changed much since then, and some of these units are actually very popular now? If so, how are they usually employed?

On January 17 2014 07:24 rauk wrote:
they're hard to use and hard to get and require time to build energy and are useless after a single spell

whereas 11 mutas are relatively easy to get because you don't need to build a queens nest and research broodling, you have the spire for scourge anyways, are instantly useful after spawning, and after you kill some HT with your mutas you can use them for harass or fighting

On January 18 2014 08:40 BigFan wrote:

Queens are good against terran mech since you can broodling tanks but I'm not sure how much it's done since I would say the timing to get them out and building energy is quite long and such. Still, an interesting unit.

Dark Archons have their use in maelstorm and mind control. I'm not sure how much mind control is used but you'll see a PvZ game now and then with maelstorm but not a lot though. I think feedback is pretty useful as well but haven't seen much use in the games I've watched. If anyone has a game with feedback, please link

Valks are used but only with certain builds. I think they were recently used in an SSL match if I'm not mistaken or I could be thinking of an older game. Personally, I think it's great against mutas, specifically if you can't deal with them with the whole turrets etc... I see valks as the corsair equivalent for terran in some ways. A marine+medic+valk combo is pretty strong if you have the macro to keep making units and micro for the splits against lurkers and such.

Infested terrans have their use in that zerO vs Kal game but I dunno about other games like it.
Arbiters are pretty much standard in late game PvT. It's rare to see a late game without them lol.
Ghosts are rare to see except maybe late late game TvT to try and nuke for position? Haven't seen games of this though.
Scouts are one of the least used units, probably due to speed and cost. If they had speed then they would be great to use but not being able to outrun the scourage for ex is problematic imo.

I play mainly terran but offrace as protoss since it's more relaxing and almost never zerg. I would say your list is pretty much the same as mine although my arbiter use is pretty low since I seem to forget that protoss has another tech path after getting stargate XD


while I agree with this, I think if the protoss is a good player, they'll babysit their hts so that they aren't easy to snipe and what they are about to be sniped, storm the location where the mutas are likely to retreat towards to at least hit some of them. Obviously it's difficult to do, just saying

On January 18 2014 09:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ensnare is awesome though, should be used all the time, but you dont need it which is why you don't see it more.

On January 18 2014 09:37 rauk wrote:
TIL

id never have the balls to build queens vs mass sair

On January 18 2014 09:16 rauk wrote: losing one or two mutas isn't a big deal, losing 1 or 2 queens is huge

vs C level and a little better protosses i found that sniping HT with even just mutas is excessive/unnecessary, just 1a2a3a and spread your hydras vs storm and that's really all you need to win. basically just make stuff and amove works at C and below, no need to get fancy

On January 18 2014 11:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Hate to ask, but... why? Queens are no more expensive than mutas.

I mean, yeah, it'd suck/be extremely annoying if you lost a Queen that was @150+ mana before it got to do anything, but cost-wise, losing a 100/100 unit doesn't seem like a back-breaker, even in midgame.



If it's that easy, the win percentages for Z in ZvP should be really high. Are they?

I don't know if they are, this is why I ask.

On January 18 2014 09:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:
erm countering queens with sairs is pretty silly. queens are actually a really good counter for corsairs, both because parasite lets you know where the army is and because ensnare allows you to escape it and trap them.

the problem with broodling against protoss is that, unlike terran who always has some tanks towards the edge of his army or whatever that you can target, protoss usually has his templars behind /together with a goon army. and if you cast broodling, and your queen dies before the broodling spawns, what actually happens is that that the broodling ends up not landing. (I think it's the only spell in bw to function like this!) If you try to broodling a templar protected by 12 goons, you'll very frequently find your queens dying without having successfully broodlinged anything. In addition there's the whole save up 150 energy thing.

Ensnare is awesome though, should be used all the time, but you dont need it which is why you don't see it more.

On January 18 2014 08:40 BigFan wrote:
Dark Archons have their use in maelstorm and mind control. I'm not sure how much mind control is used but you'll see a PvZ game now and then with maelstorm but not a lot though. I think feedback is pretty useful as well but haven't seen much use in the games I've watched. If anyone has a game with feedback, please link

On January 18 2014 23:59 skzlime wrote:

are you sure? no way that can be true.

On January 20 2014 00:13 skzlime wrote:
can't believe i'm still learning new things

On January 20 2014 05:19 Stratos wrote:
I've also seen Sky use feedback in PvP (ht) and Shuttle in PvT (vessel).

On January 20 2014 08:49 Harem wrote:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/50343_Jaehoon_vs_sSak

jaehoon MC'd a vessel here (feedback is also very viable but micro required with everything else is pretty rough)

On January 20 2014 21:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:
it was never played on normal by like, anyone. But blizzard insisted on "Fast" as their ladder game speed, and consequently there was like a year-ish where competitive standards weren't totally established and some would play fast and some fastest back then.

even in like 2006 when every single player on bnet played on fastest, blizzard refused to change the ladder speed because they believed the game was better on fast.

On January 18 2014 09:16 rauk wrote:


if the protoss is a good player he'll chase your queens with +1 sairs. making a bunch of +1 sairs against 10 queens is an amazing investment but is only okay vs a couple of mutas that come out after a ton of hydras are already made. losing one or mutas isn't a big deal, losing 1 or 2 queens is huge

vs C level and a little better protosses i found that sniping HT with even just mutas is excessive/unnecessary, just 1a2a3a and spread your hydras vs storm and that's really all you need to win. basically just make stuff and amove works at C and below, no need to get fancy

On January 21 2014 06:04 fencer wrote:
I read somewhere that Blizzard originally added Fastest as a 'joke' speed just for giggles. Sort of like: "wouldn't it be hilarious if we had a setting where everything moves comically fast and noone can keep up with anything? I bet noone will ever use it anyway".

Can anyone confirm this?

On January 21 2014 08:08 BigFan wrote:
I can't confirm or deny this but fastest isn't that, well, fast lol.

On January 21 2014 06:04 fencer wrote:
I read somewhere that Blizzard originally added Fastest as a 'joke' speed just for giggles. Sort of like: "wouldn't it be hilarious if we had a setting where everything moves comically fast and noone can keep up with anything? I bet noone will ever use it anyway".

Can anyone confirm this?

On January 21 2014 08:42 fencer wrote:

I didn't say it was fast, I only conveyed what some Blizzard employee had apparently said. And for a 90's RTS it was pretty fast, compare it to the speed of Total Annihilation or Red Alert for example.

On January 21 2014 06:04 fencer wrote:
I read somewhere that Blizzard originally added Fastest as a 'joke' speed just for giggles. Sort of like: "wouldn't it be hilarious if we had a setting where everything moves comically fast and noone can keep up with anything? I bet noone will ever use it anyway".

Can anyone confirm this?

On January 23 2014 12:08 [[Starlight]] wrote:

I can't confirm it, and I was hanging out on the Blizzard Starcraft forum for like a couple of years prior to release and for a couple of years after. I think they were surprised that Fastest became almost the only speed anyone would play (though you could find some games on Fast or Faster too).

I think a lot of ppl just gravitate to whatever is seen as the most EXTREEEEEEME, lol.

Probably if Blizzard had put in a speed called 'Hyper' that was 3x faster than Fastest, a lot of ppl would play it, maybe even insist on it.

Their micro and macro would then suck donkey lint, but they'd play it.

On January 23 2014 12:52 BigFan wrote:
I would love a hyper game mode XD

On January 23 2014 12:08 [[Starlight]] wrote:I can't confirm it, and I was hanging out on the Blizzard Starcraft forum for like a couple of years prior to release and for a couple of years after. I think they were surprised that Fastest became almost the only speed anyone would play (though you could find some games on Fast or Faster too).

I think a lot of ppl just gravitate to whatever is seen as the most EXTREEEEEEME, lol.

Probably if Blizzard had put in a speed called 'Hyper' that was 3x faster than Fastest, a lot of ppl would play it, maybe even insist on it.

Their micro and macro would then suck donkey lint, but they'd play it.

On January 23 2014 22:32 fencer wrote:
Oh I wish there were replays from like 1998 of 'good' people playing. My only memories from back then is when I typed in "power overwhelming" on b.net and expected it to work.

And constant backstabbing in 2v2; if you had the stronger army than your ally when you had almost won, it was more or less standard to unally at the last second and have the win for yourself.

On January 18 2014 13:02 rauk wrote:
yes, zvp is imba in favor of z by like 5%ish in the proscene and is considerably easier than that if you're not a pro.

rauk wrote:
vs C level and a little better protosses i found that sniping HT with even just mutas is excessive/unnecessary, just 1a2a3a and spread your hydras vs storm and that's really all you need to win.

basically just make stuff and amove works at C and below, no need to get fancy

On January 23 2014 16:23 [[Starlight]] wrote:

And a dozen cups of coffee to go with it.

On January 23 2014 19:03 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Scouts. Dark Archons, but their skills are really really useful, esp the one that is like Statis but you get to hit them, but it only works on organic units.

On January 23 2014 22:32 fencer wrote:

Oh I wish there were replays from like 1998 of 'good' people playing. My only memories from back then is when I typed in "power overwhelming" on b.net and expected it to work. And constant backstabbing in 2v2; if you had the stronger army than your ally when you had almost won, it was more or less standard to unally at the last second and have the win for yourself.

On January 25 2014 15:37 BigFan wrote:

maelstorm?

On January 30 2014 14:18 imzesok wrote:
I blame my crappy Macro gameplay(my expo timings need serious work). Ghosts, I'll always keep 3 in my base for defense(lockdown) or nuke runs(late game obviously)

On January 30 2014 14:18 imzesok wrote:
yep, lots of backstabbers on the bnet server, it's happened to me I think 4 or 5 of my 7 losses over there. as for the "late game" argument: Every race's "late game" is different, for zerg it's about 22-28 minutes in, and if you have no hive by that point it's probably because you've either already lost or were forced to relocate half-way across the map(which isn't much better tbh). Protoss, it's more or less any time they please, really. Provided they didn't get squashed in the first 10-15 minutes and have gained map control, anyway. Terran's late game is about 30-35 minutes(if the game lasts that long, and it shouldn't, imho). Anyway, that stuff is more than a bit off topic.

stuff I either don't build or rarely do build(feel free to laugh at some of the noobness):

ZERG! my primary race
1. defilers - they are largely only useful for protecting mass ground units vs air to ground fire(darks warm), or plaguing other zerg units/structures prior to an assault. not many actually play zerg, and any air units are easily sniped by hydras/scourge, so no biggy if one decides they want to skip it.

2. Queens - yes I know I'm an awful zerg player for not doing so. When I do build them, it's usually an after thought or I'm just toying with someone who doesn't know any better then to protect their flank. but a well placed parasite can be crucial, though and I recognize this...I'm just lazy. love spawn broodlings though.. especially vs scvs, tanks, goliaths, and medics. for me the queens nest is largely just an annoying obstacle in my way of getting to hive tech(love my ultras too).

3. infested terran - this is more of a taunt than being remotely effective outside of dropping them on some pour noobs worker stream. I won't even bother infesting a command center unless it's heavily damaged and escaping. Even then it's more about me rubbing salt in the wound.
----------
Protoss:

1. reavers - there simply are more cost effective ways to do damage(DTs/Archons come to mind), nothing better to fend off mass zerg ground units though while staying out of range. best suited for cheap arbiter mass recall drops behind enemy lines. they are just too expensive, and time consuming to build(counting upgrades and scarabs).

2. scouts - why? because for about 150-200 more resources I can build carriers instead. mass 'sairs has anti-air handled for the most part anyway. However, I will(rarely) build ONE, and only that one..for the following reason: hallucinations(very under used spell I might add). yeah, yeah, D-web can shut down the turrets/cannon/spore colony, but it doesn't last long, and costs a bunch of energy to use. but with 6 HTs you can create 12-24 fake scouts, and send them in front of your shuttles, and take all the damage instead. you could do this with the shuttles instead, but honestly that'd just make the other player focus fire on the shuttles instead of the much more annoying scout with their air units. not as useful against terrans however as EMP shockwaves would just immediately dispell the hallucinations.

3. high templar - for any other reason then Archons with the only exception of what I've listed above. I'll miss more often then not with the psionic storms anyway.

4. Dragoons - they are almost as slow moving as they are at firing and tend to bottleneck preventing any reasonable ground troop movement. for the most part though they are just queen fodder. I've used them a few times, but only in recall drops for that reason. IMO, you're much better off making archons(which are immune to broodling spawns, and move much faster) instead.

5. Shuttles - scourge bait - like with terrans, I tend to either forget about them, or I'd prefer using an arbiter in their place.
------------

Terran(my secondary race)

I make pretty much everything in semi-small numbers until I can mass battle-cruisers, wraiths and valks(it's worth noting I don't usually have to even build a BC, because I've usually won before the first one came out). I think the only thing I don't really build(unless I'm on an island map) is dropships(mostly I forget they even exist). Usually, early game I'm just awful but mid to late game I do pretty well. . .I blame my crappy Macro gameplay(my expo timings need serious work). Ghosts, I'll always keep 3 in my base for defense(lockdown) or nuke runs(late game obviously). admittedly I don't make as many medics as are usually necessary(almost always regret not making two more, as I stop at 5/group) . I do heavily favor Vultures and Goliaths though. mix in some M&Ms and you've a hell of an attack force(provided you micro those vultures well anyway). for air defense wraiths and valks; usually 1 wraith for every 3 valk. or 1 wraith per 2 valks. air attack comes in, cloak the wraiths and micro them when possible.

On January 30 2014 17:03 [[Starlight]] wrote:

And ppl were getting mad at me just because I didn't make Arbiters much?

A lesson in perspective.

Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post. But that's okay, the cool ppl will help you out, and the uncool ppl will identify themselves by their actions.

It's great that you're into BW, best RTS ever.

On January 30 2014 22:31 rauk wrote:
being told that you're not good at a game isn't the same thing as hazing, especially if it's obviously true

@imzesok

there's a lot of resources for noobs like yourself and if you follow standard build orders its surprising how fast you can improve. try liquipedia. pvt build i recommend doing 2 base arbiters since it's pretty simple. pvz is hard no matter what build you choose, so you might as well go +1 sair speedlot. just for reference goons are absolute must build units in pvp and pvt and either HT or reaver are essential in pvz and to a lesser extent pvp. like these units are so essential that you get crushed if you don't have them

And ppl were getting mad at me just because I didn't make Arbiters much?

Zesok, be aware that you might possibly get hazed by some ppl here for your post.

It's great that you're into BW, best RTS ever.

On January 31 2014 05:40 imzesok wrote:

I love Arbiters, and do make them just about every game I do play as protoss(which is admittedly not often).

as a noob, it's expected at least a half-dozen times, regardless of what type of community you join online; sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones, lol


agreed

---------------
@birdie
ty for the link- downloading now. as for the trolling part...no, I have a life, lol. I try hard not to feed them as well.
I do enjoy watching the pro replays. another of my sins in SC(probably the most grievous of them all): I forget to hotkey my buildings! I'm reminded of this everytime I watch one of these replays, it's so easy to do it while it's building

@rauk
I already do look over liquipedia from time to time...have for years. mostly for zerg/terran strategy though
always happy to take advice for protoss though, despite me almost never using them. and shame on me(now that I'm awake and have read my own post) for forgetting to build a shield battery in at least half those games! I kick myself every time I don't do it...I usually need it.

@[[Starlight]]
yeah, I'm aware Defilers can be a good investment, they just don't have a long life expectancy. it's what? 100 min, 150 gas(guess I'll have to start a game and see)? anyhow, I end up putting off researching consume, because I it's just so easy to make large numbers of them and wait...and as I said above: I'm lazy, lol. but yeah, I have been trying to make them more often lately. It's just a really late game unit, so I typically, just don't get around to it.

I'm actually far more ashamed that I don't research and use the queens ensnare ability, especially since I know full well how effective it is. not to mention how cheap per cast is(75 or 100 i think). I do the +energy, and broodlings, but entirely forget the ensnare when I do make them.
--

was right on the ensare, it is 75 energy/cast, off on the defiler cost by 50 minerals and gas(50 mineral, 100 gas).
sometimes I forget I have the Prima strategy guides 4 feet away to consult for these things, lol. oh well.

On January 31 2014 05:40 imzesok wrote:

I love Arbiters, and do make them just about every game I do play as protoss(which is admittedly not often).

as a noob, it's expected at least a half-dozen times, regardless of what type of community you join online; sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones, lol


agreed

---------------
@birdie
ty for the link- downloading now. as for the trolling part...no, I have a life, lol. I try hard not to feed them as well.
I do enjoy watching the pro replays. another of my sins in SC(probably the most grievous of them all): I forget to hotkey my buildings! I'm reminded of this everytime I watch one of these replays, it's so easy to do it while it's building

@rauk
I already do look over liquipedia from time to time...have for years. mostly for zerg/terran strategy though
always happy to take advice for protoss though, despite me almost never using them. and shame on me(now that I'm awake and have read my own post) for forgetting to build a shield battery in at least half those games! I kick myself every time I don't do it...I usually need it.

@[[Starlight]]
yeah, I'm aware Defilers can be a good investment, they just don't have a long life expectancy. it's what? 100 min, 150 gas(guess I'll have to start a game and see)? anyhow, I end up putting off researching consume, because I it's just so easy to make large numbers of them and wait...and as I said above: I'm lazy, lol. but yeah, I have been trying to make them more often lately. It's just a really late game unit, so I typically, just don't get around to it.

I'm actually far more ashamed that I don't research and use the queens ensnare ability, especially since I know full well how effective it is. not to mention how cheap per cast is(75 or 100 i think). I do the +energy, and broodlings, but entirely forget the ensnare when I do make them.
--

was right on the ensare, it is 75 energy/cast, off on the defiler cost by 50 minerals and gas(50 mineral, 100 gas).
sometimes I forget I have the Prima strategy guides 4 feet away to consult for these things, lol. oh well.

On February 01 2014 02:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I personally started longing for the good old days of 98 where I would play games like imzesok.. playing with 2 hatcheries and two expansions with 20 drones total and just trying to be incredibly cost effective with burrowing defilers at random places around the map so I could plague clumps of units.. Stuff like playing 2v2 with my brother, me zerg him terran, using shitloads of time and energy on both plaguing and emping protoss units. Him giving me a free command centre to infest before he even expanded himself - obviously stupid as infested terrans usually don't pay for themselves in the first place..

stuff like timing how long stasis lasted and how long nuke took to launch so we could first stasis units and then nuke them 40 or whatever seconds later (back then we'd be playing on Fast) and they'd be unstasised right about the time the nuke landed...

High level 1v1 bw is amazing, but it's also incredibly stressful. Playing at a much slower pace and at a much lower level opened strategical opportunities that are now lost.

On January 25 2014 07:14 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Not to turn it into an imba thread, but what would you say is the root of the ZvP imba?

Is it that mass hydra macro off of early expand trumps zeal/goon/templar or zeal/goon/reaver too easily?

Plus 'toss can't pressure Z strongly enough early on to really contest/stop the Z expand, usually?

Or is it something else IYO other than 'Captain Obvious' -type stuff?

On February 01 2014 14:59 [[Starlight]] wrote:

Great post. And I feel somewhat similarly.

It's the weird, wacky, wonderful offbeat stuff adds so much flavor to Starcraft. Yes, the progamers are amazing, and you can learn tons from watching them (and I'm starting to, occasionally). But, back in the early days of SC, one of the things I really dug was when 'regular Joe' players would try to pull off innovative crap, or would make amazing comebacks that they shouldn't be able to, or in general would 'just try stuff'. And if you're playing vs less than gosu competition, sometimes it works, and it's awesome and very fun when it does.

I remember a guy in TvT who was getting his worker line at an expansion wiped out by my squadron of cloaked wraiths. He had nuke-rushed apparently (a strat that would probably get you killed vs anyone real good, I assume), so as I'm gunning down his SCVs, I hear "Nuclear launch detected!". I run my wraiths away to just off-screen in terror. I wait awhile... and wait... no nuke explosion sound. I come back, and he's got a bunch of turrets just about completing. Total psych job. Very nice. And it worked, 'cuz he nuke-rushed.

Or there was the time I got zealot rushed, in TvP... he went all-in on my main, I didn't see it coming quite in time, and I hadn't expanded yet (had been saving cash for it). He loses most of his troops, but he gets me. All my surviving workers run away, and my CC is on fire before it lifts off (tried to hold out too long). It blows up in midair. I have 423 minerals in the bank. One of my 'exodus' SCVs makes a new CC in a remote spot. I have a very few troops, some workers, and a few 'exodus' floating buildings that touch down in the spot. Somehow, someway, I claw my way all the way back and win, with the coup de grace being a stimmed firebat drop from a d-matrixed dropship into his main's mineral line. Would any of this have had a prayer in an 'oh so serious' match? Doubt it.

Also agree that it was very fun playing on Fast. You had more time to micro and do wacky, cool, fun stuff, and, well, enjoy yourself. While still being rewarded for your macro, if it was any good.

If one is super-duper into the programer scene and playing 'the right way', there's obviously nothing wrong with that, you do have to admire the high-APM Fastest crowd that's trying so hard to emulate the programers and 'be all they can be'. But there's also a part of you that occasionally feels like saying, "Why so serious?".

Just my .02, I know that view may be a rare or unpopular one.

On February 01 2014 22:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If you're used to fastest I think it's kinda impossible to really enjoy fast. But the game speed isn't why the game is so stressful at high levels, it's because players are so good. There wouldn't be any significant drop in apm if top players started playing on fast; they would just do even more because even at the very highest levels of play there is a whole lot of room for theoretical improvement.

On February 03 2014 04:40 [[Starlight]] wrote:

It would be interesting to see how close to perfectly progamers would play on Fast.

Then again, it might be like looking into the Ark of the Covenant. "Something man was not meant to see" n' all that.

On February 01 2014 22:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If you're used to fastest I think it's kinda impossible to really enjoy fast. But the game speed isn't why the game is so stressful at high levels, it's because players are so good. There wouldn't be any significant drop in apm if top players started playing on fast; they would just do even more because even at the very highest levels of play there is a whole lot of room for theoretical improvement.

On February 04 2014 01:47 jello_biafra wrote:

I wonder if anyone has ever actually played a game on slowest, I would like to see two progamers do that and then watch the replay on fastest.

On February 04 2014 03:35 skzlime wrote:
slowest is terrible

If there were speeds well beyond Fastest, even if they were so fast that the gameplay went to total sh*t, I bet that the majority of ppl would use 'em even so... the highest-speed setting available, no matter what. It's just human nature, goofy as it is.

On February 08 2014 17:58 vOdToasT wrote:
Actually, in WarCraft II Battle Net Edition, an extreme game speed was added

On February 09 2014 17:21 vOdToasT wrote:
I meant that "fastest" is extremely fast. Therefor it is extreme. The game speed is intentional, and yeah, it's crazy.

On February 04 2014 01:47 jello_biafra wrote:

I wonder if anyone has ever actually played a game on slowest, I would like to see two progamers do that and then watch the replay on fastest.

On December 28 2013 01:56 hitthat wrote:
On korean proffesional levels: arbiters are essential on competetive levels, valks and queens found some use on pro level to conter specific tactics, DA's are usefull but rarely seen, ghosts are unnecessary and scouts are as useless as ever.

On February 13 2014 06:33 Xeln4g4 wrote:


There used to be a nice tactic vs T fast exp ... double stargate scouts which was quite funny to use and drive T crazy ... beside this most USELESS units of the game.

On February 11 2014 05:59 IntoTheheart wrote:
Firebats probably.

On February 27 2014 12:54 [[Starlight]] wrote:

I've always wondered why firebats don't get a little more love. I see guys like Flash and FirebatHero (of course) mixing in a few with their M&M hordes, usually to very good effect.

I know 'bats can't help out against the Muta harass, but man, stimmed 'bats BBQ ling hordes like there's no tomorrow, especially in any tight area. Great vs workers too. I once dropped 8 bats on a Protoss mineral line, then stim'd... never saw 15+ workers get vaporized so quick. =o

My personal fave was FirebatHero's 'firebat hero'. ONE of his 'bats killed like 8 workers at a fledging Zerg expansion, rendering it completely non-productive. I wanna be FBH when I grow .

On December 28 2013 03:14 Stratos wrote:
1. Drones

On February 27 2014 18:43 iloveav wrote:


So... Basicly 4 pool?
Not so unheard of :D.

On January 09 2014 18:12 Birdie wrote:
I remember...Killer vs Sea I think, in an SRT or SSL finals, and Killer had a control group of Queens. They killed a couple sets of tanks but then Sea managed to irradiate a bunch of them if I recall right, and Killer couldn't really continue to use them as effectively. I think they definitely have potential though.

What I personally want to have a go with is ensnaring bio in the midgame, I think a lurker surround against ensnared MnM is basically guaranteed engagement win, so you can be super-efficient and deny the Terran any map control for a long time.

On March 02 2014 02:02 puppykiller wrote:
Man people make firebats all the time. They're super useful. Just no one "goes" firebats.

On March 02 2014 02:02 puppykiller wrote:
Man people make firebats all the time. They're super useful. .

Birdie wrote:
Yeah it's extremely standard to make two firebats after your first two medics, then you can push out with MnM and leave the two fbats on the ramp. Then later on a lot of pros will add on firebats to help vs ling and swarm. MnM is the main part of the force still, of course.

On March 02 2014 13:26 [[Starlight]] wrote:

And yet, we have ppl in this very thread who say they don't make firebats, and/or "they aren't worth the micromanagement." Go figure.

Personally, I love firebats, and do use them.