I see that sadly a lot of you have missed the point about my scout reply: it's for PvZ, lategame (like 30+ minutes and for games where it's a lot of camping, mostly). You make 2 scouts when you're almost maxed as a preventive measure so he can't snipe your expansions with a few guardians from a non-walkable terrain place. You will require your storms (if you don't have reavers) to hold off defiler+lings for long enough until your army arrives, as losing half a dozen cannons isn't exactly great at that point in the game.
Imagine: Fighting Spirit, you have an expansion at 3 and 6, now you cannot possibly properly defend both of these from a full onslaught of defiler+ling/ultra or some overlord drops with that content. The zerg may very well try to harrass one of your expansions by defiler+lings to put your attention and army there. In the meantime he may use the guardians to snipe down a few cannons at your other expansion (out of reach of your ground army anyway). As he only made 3-4 guardians in total, having a lot of corsairs is a bad idea, they do little damage vs guardians who most likely have at least one armour upgrade done at this point and you won't have enough to kill scourges before they suicide into you. So use scouts to keep the guardians on distance, he can't just fly in scourge as they will die to cannons, and in the worst case you can still use a storm (don't waste storms, you need them against lings from ramp ambushes and overlord drops).
Note that I used this in mostly passive games where the zerg went for fast hive with sunken/spore/lurker/swarm defenses and I played a passive style myself (I preferred playing passive PvZ games).
edit: I also used this vs zergs who were B or higher, and imo it's a very good way to keep guardians from sniping cannons/probes (depending on mineral line layout).
I never used infested terrans, I dont think ever in an actual 1v1 game. Maybe when I used to play fastest or something dumb like that. but never on iccup or something.
I always thought D Web would help soooo much in PvT, but I've tried it a couple times, and I was killed as soon as the first corse air popped out ((
On July 10 2014 19:05 AhAiHi wrote:I always thought D Web would help soooo much in PvT, but I've tried it a couple times, and I was killed as soon as the first corse air popped out ((
I think D-web's more of a late game thing. Ppl who rely on it in PvT midgames tend to get creamed, from what little I've seen of them trying.
Guess it's too much of a diversion of resources too early... stargate + sairs + d-web research cost.
On July 10 2014 19:05 AhAiHi wrote:I always thought D Web would help soooo much in PvT, but I've tried it a couple times, and I was killed as soon as the first corse air popped out ((
I think D-web's more of a late game thing. Ppl who rely on it in PvT midgames tend to get creamed, from what little I've seen of them trying.
Guess it's too much of a diversion of resources too early... stargate + sairs + d-web research cost.
Yeah exactly what it is. I cannot handle the mine pressure, and then the try and make any form of tech. Not to mention that Sairs take time to charge their Dweb, and all that. I think the idea of it in PvT late game would be amazing. Throw it over tanks, along with some speedlots and Hts, and that would seem like just as good an option as stasis.
But like you said, the sheer resources it taxes on the toss is too much, even in late game
On July 11 2014 05:04 AhAiHi wrote: But like you said, the sheer resources it taxes on the toss is too much, even in late game
That's not exactly what I said. I said the resources needed for it are a bit much for midgame (PvT), but are more affordable in late game.
Protoss has a problem in late game PvT in that it's hard to stop a large, fully-upgraded 3/3 Terran mech army. How do you break the Terran when he has a jazillion upgraded tanks? Arbiters/stasis is the common play, but arbiters are gas-intensive, and mass dweb can certainly be quite effective.
And you do see folks using dweb successfully in PvZ too, with sair/reaver. It's not some esoteric spell that should never be used. Blizzard even had to tone it down in 1.08 by reducing its duration.
On July 10 2014 19:05 AhAiHi wrote:I always thought D Web would help soooo much in PvT, but I've tried it a couple times, and I was killed as soon as the first corse air popped out ((
I think D-web's more of a late game thing. Ppl who rely on it in PvT midgames tend to get creamed, from what little I've seen of them trying.
Guess it's too much of a diversion of resources too early... stargate + sairs + d-web research cost.
Truth be told, I think the other issue is just that arbiters solve the problem better. Cloaking, recall, stasis are all useful abilities, and the Templar tech tree is useful because a lot of the important P tech follows that tree anyways.
On July 13 2014 09:55 [[Starlight]] wrote: Protoss has a problem in late game PvT in that it's hard to stop a large, fully-upgraded 3/3 Terran mech army. How do you break the Terran when he has a jazillion upgraded tanks?
Storms, divide and conquer, and by remaxing faster.
The terran 3/3 200/200 kills the protoss 200/200 by a large margin, but P can pump another one out really fast.
PvZ is a different issue altogether because you use Corsairs anyways and DWeb is just a bonus. One that is rarely used at that.
Dark Archons are used pretty commonly in lategame PvP for templar sniping and occasionally for some Maelstrom strategies PvZ, and Queens have been used before for anti-mech builds. Infested terran is useless mostly because Terran is the wrong race to use them against. They have seen a game or two on the neutral CC map Holy World.
On July 11 2014 03:02 [[Starlight]] wrote: I think D-web's more of a late game thing. Ppl who rely on it in PvT midgames tend to get creamed, from what little I've seen of them trying.
Guess it's too much of a diversion of resources too early... stargate + sairs + d-web research cost.
Truth be told, I think the other issue is just that arbiters solve the problem better [than mass dweb]. Cloaking, recall, stasis are all useful abilities, and the Templar tech tree is useful because a lot of the important P tech follows that tree anyways.
I dunno... below is a Bisu vs Jaedong match that was quite the dweb festival.... Bisu won.
dweb is incredibly good pvz. way underused, normally people only go for it when they're doing a full blown sair reaver, but just getting dweb with your first 6 sair group that you never lost and using it to help you bust zerg expansions with your goon templar zealot force is quite amazing. later on it can also be a way to kind of negate an unfortunate dark swarm.
but here they were talking about dweb as opposed to arbiter in pvt, and that's an entirely different beast. I've seen some games won because of like, mass clash between terran and protoss forces where t is caught off guard with 8 tanks kinda clumped together that all stop firing cuz of 2 webs and then the army is so short on firepower, but generally it seems like normally, to go for a sair force to go with your army from the mid game (and it's much much less good after they get emp) you kinda need to choose between having enough of an army to stop a regular push or have enough economy to handle a triple cc into 2 2 180 attack, because there's a window of time where you'll have spent like 1000/750 or whatever on stargate fleet beacon 3 sairs dweb.
basically in pvt dweb can be useful - even gamewinning - but it's a bit tricky to get there. pvz dweb is really great and it's easy to get there.
On July 11 2014 03:02 [[Starlight]] wrote: I think D-web's more of a late game thing. Ppl who rely on it in PvT midgames tend to get creamed, from what little I've seen of them trying.
Guess it's too much of a diversion of resources too early... stargate + sairs + d-web research cost.
Truth be told, I think the other issue is just that arbiters solve the problem better [than mass dweb]. Cloaking, recall, stasis are all useful abilities, and the Templar tech tree is useful because a lot of the important P tech follows that tree anyways.
I dunno... below is a Bisu vs Jaedong match that was quite the dweb festival.... Bisu won.
that was a sick game. although the problem here is jd went for hydras instead of spire early to directly contest p's air army. (spire is now the common opening to zvp corsair unless z is doing a hydra bust) jd basically let bisu have air dominance and the amount of corsair w/dweb and carrier just snowball from there and even a million hydras stood no chance. i reckon the game would have been much different if jd went for spire->hydra.
On July 08 2014 19:46 eviltomahawk wrote: To be fair, I heard that Scout+Tank is a decent team game composition on BGH according to an old Day[9] daily iirc
Should be incredibly strong in theory tbh. Scouts area really good vs mass air and the more tanks you have the better.
On July 25 2014 21:40 Liquid`Drone wrote: basically in pvt dweb can be useful - even gamewinning - but it's a bit tricky to get there. pvz dweb is really great and it's easy to get there.
On July 08 2014 19:46 eviltomahawk wrote: To be fair, I heard that Scout+Tank is a decent team game composition on BGH according to an old Day[9] daily iirc
Should be incredibly strong in theory tbh. Scouts area really good vs mass air and the more tanks you have the better.
It sounds good, untill you get 2 players just massing air and playing a little defensively ...
On August 17 2014 10:15 LegalLord wrote: I thought it was better to make [one] drone while your pool was still building while you 4 pool?
Yeah, you're right. You can afford to, plus if you only have 3 drones on minerals, you can't continuously pump lings as soon as you get larvae after awhile, you don't have the money coming in quite quick enough (once your savings run out).
On August 17 2014 10:15 LegalLord wrote: I thought it was better to make a drone while your pool was still building while you 4 pool?
the 4pool build order is as follows. 1. 4 - Spawning Pool 2. 3 - Drone 3. Spawning Pool 100% - MASS LING 4. Supply Capped? - Overlord. 5. Go back to step 3.
So yes you do make a single drone. sometimes in zvz i get super cheeky and make an extra drone to do a sunken colony Heh.
EPT
((
