On October 10 2012 14:30 hacklebeast wrote: "I'm not trying to be offensive, but I'm going to post the most dismissive thing possible, and only come back a half an hour later to make a half way coherent point. And I'm still not going to post an answer to the original question"
because you were spouting off something completely nonsensical? I'm not gonna say "oh, well that's an interesting view point ...", no I'm just gonna give you the respect of giving you a straight truth that it is flat-out wrong. In all my years so far reading on the strategy forum, I have never seen anyone credit Forge FE to Pusan.
Offensive would be calling you fucking retarded or of the sort, which I know you aren't. But you do seem to be incapable of letting go of your own misconceptions sometimes, when more experienced, knowledgeable veterans tell you otherwise.
My post was in direct response to yours, not to the original question, and explains why 1base play was used more in those older VODs before 06. Not to mention, there are a lot of VODs missing anyways, so your methodology wasn't exactly a reliable way to figure out what was standard back then.
I don't know who created Forge FE (nobody does), and Harem already explained that it was standard before Bisu or Pusan used it. Bisu made Stargate after Forge FE standard, not Forge FE itself. Pusan just kinda got owned a lot in PvZ.
On October 10 2012 04:51 thezanursic wrote: Could anybody link me a couple of games where the protoss goes 2 or 3 base d-web in PvT and succesfully pulls it off and as a follow up question on what maps is it a semi resonable build?
Only game I can think of at the moment is Horang vs Organ on Chain Reaction.
On October 10 2012 14:30 hacklebeast wrote: "I'm not trying to be offensive, but I'm going to post the most dismissive thing possible, and only come back a half an hour later to make a half way coherent point. And I'm still not going to post an answer to the original question"
because you were spouting off something completely nonsensical? I'm not gonna say "oh, well that's an interesting view point ...", no I'm just gonna give you the respect of giving you a straight truth that it is flat-out wrong. In all my years so far reading on the strategy forum, I have never seen anyone credit Forge FE to Pusan.
Offensive would be calling you fucking retarded or of the sort, which I know you aren't. But you do seem to be incapable of letting go of your own misconceptions sometimes, when more experienced, knowledgeable veterans tell you otherwise.
My post was in direct response to yours, not to the original question, and explains why 1base play was used more in those older VODs before 06. Not to mention, there are a lot of VODs missing anyways, so your methodology wasn't exactly a reliable way to figure out what was standard back then.
I don't know who created Forge FE (nobody does), and Harem already explained that it was standard before Bisu or Pusan used it. Bisu made Stargate after Forge FE standard, not Forge FE itself. Pusan just kinda got owned a lot in PvZ.
On October 10 2012 04:51 thezanursic wrote: Could anybody link me a couple of games where the protoss goes 2 or 3 base d-web in PvT and succesfully pulls it off and as a follow up question on what maps is it a semi resonable build?
Only game I can think of at the moment is Horang vs Organ on Chain Reaction.
On October 07 2012 08:31 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: how does jaedong double muta micro? (or what is the proper way?) is it 1a2a? 1h2h? 3h4h?
killer demonstrated double stack muta micro on his afreeca stream. its a bit different from what jaedong did considering he didnt have two seperate stacks but rather stacked two ctrl groups of mutas together and microed as you would one stack.
He said the most important things were: 1. Have your mutas stacked real tightly. He did this by clicking on a mineral patch with his mustas a couple times. 2. click the control groups and mouse commands very quickly and precisely. if your holding down your right click too long and select a different control group it wont register so you need to clicking very quickly. Killer then proceeded to one shot like 6 turrets in a row using moving shot with double stacks. 3. Then he showed double muta micro and he used the hold method. killer said the timing was the most important that with double stack you need to be able to 1h moveback 2h moveback as quickly and precisely as possible.
People then asked for two seperate stacks loke jaedong did and killer said he wasnt good enough to do that
On October 10 2012 14:30 hacklebeast wrote: "I'm not trying to be offensive, but I'm going to post the most dismissive thing possible, and only come back a half an hour later to make a half way coherent point. And I'm still not going to post an answer to the original question"
because you were spouting off something completely nonsensical? I'm not gonna say "oh, well that's an interesting view point ...", no I'm just gonna give you the respect of giving you a straight truth that it is flat-out wrong. In all my years so far reading on the strategy forum, I have never seen anyone credit Forge FE to Pusan.
Offensive would be calling you fucking retarded or of the sort, which I know you aren't. But you do seem to be incapable of letting go of your own misconceptions sometimes, when more experienced, knowledgeable veterans tell you otherwise.
My post was in direct response to yours, not to the original question, and explains why 1base play was used more in those older VODs before 06. Not to mention, there are a lot of VODs missing anyways, so your methodology wasn't exactly a reliable way to figure out what was standard back then.
I don't know who created Forge FE (nobody does), and Harem already explained that it was standard before Bisu or Pusan used it. Bisu made Stargate after Forge FE standard, not Forge FE itself. Pusan just kinda got owned a lot in PvZ.
On October 10 2012 04:51 thezanursic wrote: Could anybody link me a couple of games where the protoss goes 2 or 3 base d-web in PvT and succesfully pulls it off and as a follow up question on what maps is it a semi resonable build?
Only game I can think of at the moment is Horang vs Organ on Chain Reaction.
Chinese Protoss Legend beat Tossgirl with DWeb play, you can check out the reppack lol
If you wan't to make the argument that FFE wasn't standard before that game because of the maps, that's a completely reasonable stance to take. But the point is that if it wasn't standard before that series, and it was standard after that series, that series was when it became standard. Similarly, if you want to make the argument that when FFE jumped from 1% use to 15% use, it was standardized, that is again reasonable. But it's not "nonsensical" to have the opinion that 15% to 85% is a more important jump (and you can bitch at the numbers all you want, but you get the point).
You will have to forgive me if "Pusan didn't invent it because I've never heard that. And if I don't know something about starcraft then no one does" isn't exactly compelling evidence. Admittedly I don't have a source either, but you don't get an immediate, infallible trump card that way just because you have more posts than me.
IF it wasn't standard? It WAS standard before Bisu vs Savior, and nobody is arguing that but you. Barrack Double or FD isn't played 85% of the time in modern PvT, but you wouldn't say it isn't standard would you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aw2vrzK-qw&feature=player_embedded Ok, well Reach doesnt actually Forge FE but commentators talk about how he fakes it out, and how GoRush is responding to Forge FE build, which implies it was used regularly back then
This isn't even accounting for all the countless VODs that are missing since all the MSL VODs are private and recording games were not standard practice until 07 or so.
If you don't even have a source, why did you even say it in the first place? At least I can back up what I say, through testimony of other veterans who have actually watched and followed the scene back then or otherwise. Both regarding the origins of Forge FE (which is not Pusan), and that Forge FE was standard practice before Bisu vs Savior.
I'm flattered that you would portray me as this all-knowing being, but I would have to admit I have deceived you since I only speak so declaratively on things I actually am certain about .. instead of pulling things out of my ass. Yea, post count doesn't matter at all, but the fact that I've been around a lot longer than you have does.
Assuming you went ground heavy in the midgame and the zerg does a blind mutalisk switch 2 control muta switch. What can you do if you aren't going for corsair play?
On October 14 2012 07:31 thezanursic wrote: Assuming you went ground heavy in the midgame and the zerg does a blind mutalisk switch 2 control muta switch. What can you do if you aren't going for corsair play?
That shouldn't even be possible if Protoss is playing properly lmao. If you're going for a ground heavy army, you'll want to apply a lot of aggression .. no way Zerg should be able to save up 2.4k/2.4k lol
On October 14 2012 07:31 thezanursic wrote: Assuming you went ground heavy in the midgame and the zerg does a blind mutalisk switch 2 control muta switch. What can you do if you aren't going for corsair play?
That shouldn't even be possible if Protoss is playing properly lmao. If you're going for a ground heavy army, you'll want to apply a lot of aggression .. no way Zerg should be able to save up 2.4k/2.4k lol
I kinda feel contained as a protoss. In the game Zerg was taking tons of bases. I killed like 5 hatcheries 15 minutes into the game I contained him I had 4 bases he had 2 that's like auto win, but then he just flew in with like 30 mutalisks and I couldn't do shit.
On October 14 2012 07:31 thezanursic wrote: Assuming you went ground heavy in the midgame and the zerg does a blind mutalisk switch 2 control muta switch. What can you do if you aren't going for corsair play?
That shouldn't even be possible if Protoss is playing properly lmao. If you're going for a ground heavy army, you'll want to apply a lot of aggression .. no way Zerg should be able to save up 2.4k/2.4k lol
I kinda feel contained as a protoss. In the game Zerg was taking tons of bases. I killed like 5 hatcheries 15 minutes into the game I contained him I had 4 bases he had 2 that's like auto win, but then he just flied in with like 30 mutalisks and I couldn't do shit.
Interesting. If you post the replay, someone will probably reveal your problem.
Do I have the wrong mentality towards zvp? (as zerg). I like to get really aggressive in zvp after I have my hydralisk tech out. (regular 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra build) I often see my opponent attempting a quick 3d base and I get as agressive as possible to either kill it or just kill his natural. I take a fourth behind this and slowly add drones to it.
This agression doesn't fail miserably, sometimes I win, but I feel like this is probably suboptimal play because if my agression doesn't do that much, the toss slowly starts gaining the upperhand and my economy and tech isn't good enough to take him on anymore. (most of the time they get a hidden expansion behind this and then the game is just over)
Sometimes I start putting on agression as soon as I have 12+ hydras (if I see him taking a third). Else (depending on the situation) I wait till 30+ hydras or so.
I tend to skip the group of mutalisks (for w/e reason, probably because I was too bad to use them initally and now it's become a bad habit of neglecting them). But I'm guessing this a really big mistake. When should I add these mutalisks to my army? Liquipedia says at 110 food but that feels too late.. Should I only attempt this hydralisk/mutalisk agression if he didn't succeed in taking a third yet?
I've gotten some advise that when I see my opponent take a quick third, I should kill his probe/cancel it with a control group of zerglings, is this the best way? What if it fails? Take fourth myself and go for lurker playstyle?
In pro games I see a lot of lurker, quick hive play, but how do the zergs effectively stop protoss from taking expansions too quick with this playstyle? And when do they start putting up agression? TLDR: - I am pretty aggressive in zvp with hydras, is this bad? (it feels bad) - When to add mutas (at what food, when he doesn't have third or ?) - In pro games I don't see this muta play too often (am I watching the wrong games?), lurker/ling/hydra/hive play is a lot more common, is this better?
I'll add a replay which perfectly shows my approach to zvp, but I'm starting to think it's a bad approach.
I watched the replay again, and poor macro, poor awareness and poor decision making (near the end when I finally kill his cannons at his natural, I could have pushed further and probably killed his main) (+ poor micro in fights) determined the outcome which could have been easily avoided, but it's not so much about my mistakes in this game but rather my approach to zvp which I'm questioning.
On October 17 2012 10:45 wcr.4fun wrote: Do I have the wrong mentality towards zvp? (as zerg). I like to get really aggressive in zvp after I have my hydralisk tech out. (regular 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra build) I often see my opponent attempting a quick 3d base and I get as agressive as possible to either kill it or just kill his natural. I take a fourth behind this and slowly add drones to it.
This agression doesn't fail miserably, sometimes I win, but I feel like this is probably suboptimal play because if my agression doesn't do that much, the toss slowly starts gaining the upperhand and my economy and tech isn't good enough to take him on anymore. (most of the time they get a hidden expansion behind this and then the game is just over)
Sometimes I start putting on agression as soon as I have 12+ hydras (if I see him taking a third). Else (depending on the situation) I wait till 30+ hydras or so.
I tend to skip the group of mutalisks (for w/e reason, probably because I was too bad to use them initally and now it's become a bad habit of neglecting them). But I'm guessing this a really big mistake. When should I add these mutalisks to my army? Liquipedia says at 110 food but that feels too late.. Should I only attempt this hydralisk/mutalisk agression if he didn't succeed in taking a third yet?
I've gotten some advise that when I see my opponent take a quick third, I should kill his probe/cancel it with a control group of zerglings, is this the best way? What if it fails? Take fourth myself and go for lurker playstyle?
In pro games I see a lot of lurker, quick hive play, but how do the zergs effectively stop protoss from taking expansions too quick with this playstyle? And when do they start putting up agression? TLDR: - I am pretty aggressive in zvp with hydras, is this bad? (it feels bad) - When to add mutas (at what food, when he doesn't have third or ?) - In pro games I don't see this muta play too often (am I watching the wrong games?), lurker/ling/hydra/hive play is a lot more common, is this better?
I'll add a replay which perfectly shows my approach to zvp, but I'm starting to think it's a bad approach.
Hopefully someone better then me will reply but here is some advice:
You should scout his build. If you cant get an overlord in his main then at least see if he goes for a quick +1 and scout with scourge as soon as possible. Mutas are good if he has few anti air, so if he doesn't build a stargate...
In the rep he took his 3rd at ~10 minutes and had like only 10 zealots (because he went 2 stargate and sacrificed some zealot) you could have easily stopped it if you build more stuff. You could have at least 3 control groups of Hydra, or some lurker but you only had 1 group Hydra.
TLDR: -scout -adapt to what you scout -build stuff
On October 21 2012 09:52 thezanursic wrote: Why don't terrans research Blind in TvZ so they could Blind lurkers on ramps and just kill them with a 50% mischance from the low ground?
No don't tell anyone, delete your post, wtf!
Most likely it would delay range though, which would make it difficult against mutas.
Blind could be researched after range and stim. Issue with blind is that while it could work theoretically. It would only work if z had no mutas left to give vision, or didn't have one lurker directly on top of another (in which case only one could be targeted by optic flair). Also, not only can blinded units can fire back (they are giving vision of units that are shooting them), but they can see units walking directly on top of them. All optic flair would do is give you a bit more time to get your marines in a better position on the low ground to engage the lurkers than you would be able to do otherwise..
On October 21 2012 09:52 thezanursic wrote: Why don't terrans research Blind in TvZ so they could Blind lurkers on ramps and just kill them with a 50% mischance from the low ground?
Because we want every single last bit of medic energy to go towards heal
if you see a terran take 12 refinery one base play. Can you get your muta's out on time against wraiths if you go 2 hatch muta? I haven't encountered it yet but I think they'll be too late...
EPT
