I've played Brood War 10 years ago and tried to learn basic builds, train hard, having fun but also take my practice seriously.
With the launch of Remastered I came back a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to learn the new meta (I play as Zerg). Would you consider Liquipedia a good source? I think maybe some of the builds on Strategy may be obsolete, but I'm not sure.
If Liquipedia is not a good source, what would you recommend to start getting into the nowadays meta? I try to watch as many games as I can, but I work better with written stuff.
Also I'm pretty noobish, so thing like 12 hatch or economical builds tend to be quite frustrating, since a lot of people just go bunker rush, 2 gate or 4/5 pool. I'm trying to stick to 9 pool speed, but I don't know if that's an "old" build that is completely out of the game now.
On October 31 2020 22:01 subanchoide wrote: Hi everyone
I've played Brood War 10 years ago and tried to learn basic builds, train hard, having fun but also take my practice seriously.
With the launch of Remastered I came back a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to learn the new meta (I play as Zerg). Would you consider Liquipedia a good source? I think maybe some of the builds on Strategy may be obsolete, but I'm not sure.
If Liquipedia is not a good source, what would you recommend to start getting into the nowadays meta? I try to watch as many games as I can, but I work better with written stuff.
Also I'm pretty noobish, so thing like 12 hatch or economical builds tend to be quite frustrating, since a lot of people just go bunker rush, 2 gate or 4/5 pool. I'm trying to stick to 9 pool speed, but I don't know if that's an "old" build that is completely out of the game now.
Thanks in advance!
Basically any build, even old ones, are viable if you perform them well up until the higher ranks. 9 pool speed is still fine, but I would suggest trying overpool instead as it is less committal. 12 Hatch should beat 2 gate, and against bunker rush you can pull Drones and block their marines from entering the bunker.
The best way to learn builds is to watch FPVODs IMO. You can just write the basic build yourself while playing at slow speed or with pauses. Pick one that suits your style and grind out the different interactions in has against a variety of opponents.
On October 31 2020 22:01 subanchoide wrote: Hi everyone
I've played Brood War 10 years ago and tried to learn basic builds, train hard, having fun but also take my practice seriously.
With the launch of Remastered I came back a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to learn the new meta (I play as Zerg). Would you consider Liquipedia a good source? I think maybe some of the builds on Strategy may be obsolete, but I'm not sure.
If Liquipedia is not a good source, what would you recommend to start getting into the nowadays meta? I try to watch as many games as I can, but I work better with written stuff.
Also I'm pretty noobish, so thing like 12 hatch or economical builds tend to be quite frustrating, since a lot of people just go bunker rush, 2 gate or 4/5 pool. I'm trying to stick to 9 pool speed, but I don't know if that's an "old" build that is completely out of the game now.
Thanks in advance!
Basically any build, even old ones, are viable if you perform them well up until the higher ranks. 9 pool speed is still fine, but I would suggest trying overpool instead as it is less committal. 12 Hatch should beat 2 gate, and against bunker rush you can pull Drones and block their marines from entering the bunker.
The best way to learn builds is to watch FPVODs IMO. You can just write the basic build yourself while playing at slow speed or with pauses. Pick one that suits your style and grind out the different interactions in has against a variety of opponents.
Thank you!
When I talked about 2 gate or bunker rushes I was referring to people going pretty agressive on low levels, so it's kind of annoying trying to practice your macro if all games are just solved in a couple of minutes because people know that cannon rushing a newbie would work 50% of the times.
I'll stick to 12 hatch and overpool as my practice builds and try to build up my mechanics from there.
On October 31 2020 22:01 subanchoide wrote: Hi everyone
I've played Brood War 10 years ago and tried to learn basic builds, train hard, having fun but also take my practice seriously.
With the launch of Remastered I came back a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to learn the new meta (I play as Zerg). Would you consider Liquipedia a good source? I think maybe some of the builds on Strategy may be obsolete, but I'm not sure.
If Liquipedia is not a good source, what would you recommend to start getting into the nowadays meta? I try to watch as many games as I can, but I work better with written stuff.
Also I'm pretty noobish, so thing like 12 hatch or economical builds tend to be quite frustrating, since a lot of people just go bunker rush, 2 gate or 4/5 pool. I'm trying to stick to 9 pool speed, but I don't know if that's an "old" build that is completely out of the game now.
Thanks in advance!
Basically any build, even old ones, are viable if you perform them well up until the higher ranks. 9 pool speed is still fine, but I would suggest trying overpool instead as it is less committal. 12 Hatch should beat 2 gate, and against bunker rush you can pull Drones and block their marines from entering the bunker.
The best way to learn builds is to watch FPVODs IMO. You can just write the basic build yourself while playing at slow speed or with pauses. Pick one that suits your style and grind out the different interactions in has against a variety of opponents.
Thank you!
When I talked about 2 gate or bunker rushes I was referring to people going pretty agressive on low levels, so it's kind of annoying trying to practice your macro if all games are just solved in a couple of minutes because people know that cannon rushing a newbie would work 50% of the times.
I'll stick to 12 hatch and overpool as my practice builds and try to build up my mechanics from there.
Thanks!
Maps also play a factor in this; for example, on 2 or 3 player maps, going 12 Hatch is probably not the best choice because it can be blocked easily or scouted early, which allows P or T opponents to go for greedier options of their own (gateway assimilator cyber before cannon for example).
As for short games, look at them as an opportunity to shore up your early game defenses and fine tune your build orders. If you want consistent macro practice, I suggest finding a practice partner, agreeing on a build interaction, and then grinding it out - maybe with save game states.
On October 31 2020 22:01 subanchoide wrote: Hi everyone
I've played Brood War 10 years ago and tried to learn basic builds, train hard, having fun but also take my practice seriously.
With the launch of Remastered I came back a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to learn the new meta (I play as Zerg). Would you consider Liquipedia a good source? I think maybe some of the builds on Strategy may be obsolete, but I'm not sure.
If Liquipedia is not a good source, what would you recommend to start getting into the nowadays meta? I try to watch as many games as I can, but I work better with written stuff.
Also I'm pretty noobish, so thing like 12 hatch or economical builds tend to be quite frustrating, since a lot of people just go bunker rush, 2 gate or 4/5 pool. I'm trying to stick to 9 pool speed, but I don't know if that's an "old" build that is completely out of the game now.
Thanks in advance!
jinjin5000 has some nice translated videos of pros going over some basic build orders and, more importantly than the build orders themselves, the thought process behind why you'd do a build in a certain situation and how you'd adapt to different things. Check out his youtube channel.
It's also good to watch pros and you can pick up a lot of build orders that way. Just try to pay attention to the details. You won't hear the reasoning behind it but that's just how it goes, unless you're fluent in Korean.
Also optimal opening builds vary depending on the matchup so, unless you're facing random, you definitely want to tailor your builds beyond just generic 9 pool speed, 12 hatch etc.
9 pool speed is definitely a build you want to know cold though. It's the most aggressive of the solid/standard zvz builds. It's also the most common build zerg does in team games, if that's something you're interested in. It's not as strong in zvp or zvt (still playable, but good players will block it with standard openings and then you're behind). You can do it vs random on occasion too to limit some of the cheese and greedy builds they can do - we've seen pro zergs do this sometimes vs Flash random for this reason.
To get you started though..
zvp: overpool (make overlord at 9, then pool), 11 hatch at expo, try to figure out what he's doing with overlord or drone scout. Generally place 3rd hatch at 3rd base (unless he's going 2 gate, that's a different type of game). Usually 3 base vs protoss FE will go into something like 3 hatch hydra (973 build) or 3 hatch spire into 5-6 hatch hydra.
zvt: 12 hatch at natural, 11 pool, 10 gas into 2 hatch muta. Tough matchup for all but the best zergs. Muta play has a high ceiling but a very low floor. If they open with 8 rax into bunker rush then you pull 9 drones or so and defend. It's tough and you'll feel like Terran isn't punished enough for doing it. You can mix in some pool first builds if you like.
zvz: 9 pool, 12 pool expo (12 pool, 12 gas, 11 hatch), or 12 hatch expo. Pick whichever you like on ladder though you must be able to play all comfortably if you want to be good at zvz. Can research speed or lair first, depending on the situation.
What's a good mid game unit composition for zerg vs mech terran? I usually open 12 hatch and go for spire as soon as my lair finishes, but my typical ling-muta-lurker composition doesn't seem to fare well when terran builds lots of factories.
On November 12 2020 05:51 LeeDawg wrote: What's a good mid game unit composition for zerg vs mech terran? I usually open 12 hatch and go for spire as soon as my lair finishes, but my typical ling-muta-lurker composition doesn't seem to fare well when terran builds lots of factories.
Hydra/Muta is the classic response - Mutas to snipe Tanks, Hydra to win vs. everything else. Things have shifted a bit here and there, seems to be up to personal preference what to go for and the timing of everything depends on what Terran is doing (whether they are going for greedy turtle play or some sort of 2 base push, for example), but I'm not up-to-date enough to comment further. Below top ranks, Hydra/Muta should be fine. Keep in mind you will want a lot of bases and gasses and eco to supply your army, as you will be taking heavy losses frequently. Terran has to hit a critical mass of Tank/Gol to be able to push out, your goal is to be as greedy as possible until they hit that critical mass and then use your superior eco to wear down their push.
Replay in this case would be more useful IMO, as it is a somewhat broad topic and it would make sense to narrow it down to the specific "type" of mech you are facing and losing against.
On November 12 2020 05:51 LeeDawg wrote: What's a good mid game unit composition for zerg vs mech terran? I usually open 12 hatch and go for spire as soon as my lair finishes, but my typical ling-muta-lurker composition doesn't seem to fare well when terran builds lots of factories.
Hydra/Muta is the classic response - Mutas to snipe Tanks, Hydra to win vs. everything else. Things have shifted a bit here and there, seems to be up to personal preference what to go for and the timing of everything depends on what Terran is doing (whether they are going for greedy turtle play or some sort of 2 base push, for example), but I'm not up-to-date enough to comment further. Below top ranks, Hydra/Muta should be fine. Keep in mind you will want a lot of bases and gasses and eco to supply your army, as you will be taking heavy losses frequently. Terran has to hit a critical mass of Tank/Gol to be able to push out, your goal is to be as greedy as possible until they hit that critical mass and then use your superior eco to wear down their push.
Replay in this case would be more useful IMO, as it is a somewhat broad topic and it would make sense to narrow it down to the specific "type" of mech you are facing and losing against.
Thanks! I'm actually super new to 1v1 brood war so most of your advice from a replay should probably just be 'holy shit spend your money and stop getting supply blocked.' since I'm still adjusting to the brood war AI after years of sc2 and UMS games.
But in my most recent games where my terran opponent goes mech and our macro is comparable, my zerglings just turn to dust and I die real fast, so I was curious if I was building the wrong stuff. Sounds like I was.
On November 12 2020 05:51 LeeDawg wrote: What's a good mid game unit composition for zerg vs mech terran? I usually open 12 hatch and go for spire as soon as my lair finishes, but my typical ling-muta-lurker composition doesn't seem to fare well when terran builds lots of factories.
Hydra/Muta is the classic response - Mutas to snipe Tanks, Hydra to win vs. everything else. Things have shifted a bit here and there, seems to be up to personal preference what to go for and the timing of everything depends on what Terran is doing (whether they are going for greedy turtle play or some sort of 2 base push, for example), but I'm not up-to-date enough to comment further. Below top ranks, Hydra/Muta should be fine. Keep in mind you will want a lot of bases and gasses and eco to supply your army, as you will be taking heavy losses frequently. Terran has to hit a critical mass of Tank/Gol to be able to push out, your goal is to be as greedy as possible until they hit that critical mass and then use your superior eco to wear down their push.
Replay in this case would be more useful IMO, as it is a somewhat broad topic and it would make sense to narrow it down to the specific "type" of mech you are facing and losing against.
Thanks! I'm actually super new to 1v1 brood war so most of your advice from a replay should probably just be 'holy shit spend your money and stop getting supply blocked.' since I'm still adjusting to the brood war AI after years of sc2 and UMS games.
But in my most recent games where my terran opponent goes mech and our macro is comparable, my zerglings just turn to dust and I die real fast, so I was curious if I was building the wrong stuff. Sounds like I was.
Sounds like you've self-identified the issue well enough on your own. Having more units, even the wrong units, against an opponent will win games more reliably than having the right units but not enough of them. I imagine you could win your games with just Zerglings if your macro is better than your opponent's. Thus, based on the limited information provided, if you want to win more games I'd suggest focusing on your macro. Most people who just start out don't realize how much more they struggle with the "real time" aspect of RTS not the "strategy" part.
If you want a more in depth view, this page addresses a lot of the fundamentals of Hydra/Muta. It is definitely lacking in many ways but may be enough for you to mull over and incorporate into your game, just don't take it as gospel:
On November 12 2020 05:51 LeeDawg wrote: What's a good mid game unit composition for zerg vs mech terran? I usually open 12 hatch and go for spire as soon as my lair finishes, but my typical ling-muta-lurker composition doesn't seem to fare well when terran builds lots of factories.
Hydra/Muta is the classic response - Mutas to snipe Tanks, Hydra to win vs. everything else. Things have shifted a bit here and there, seems to be up to personal preference what to go for and the timing of everything depends on what Terran is doing (whether they are going for greedy turtle play or some sort of 2 base push, for example), but I'm not up-to-date enough to comment further. Below top ranks, Hydra/Muta should be fine. Keep in mind you will want a lot of bases and gasses and eco to supply your army, as you will be taking heavy losses frequently. Terran has to hit a critical mass of Tank/Gol to be able to push out, your goal is to be as greedy as possible until they hit that critical mass and then use your superior eco to wear down their push.
Replay in this case would be more useful IMO, as it is a somewhat broad topic and it would make sense to narrow it down to the specific "type" of mech you are facing and losing against.
Thanks! I'm actually super new to 1v1 brood war so most of your advice from a replay should probably just be 'holy shit spend your money and stop getting supply blocked.' since I'm still adjusting to the brood war AI after years of sc2 and UMS games.
But in my most recent games where my terran opponent goes mech and our macro is comparable, my zerglings just turn to dust and I die real fast, so I was curious if I was building the wrong stuff. Sounds like I was.
Sounds like you've self-identified the issue well enough on your own. Having more units, even the wrong units, against an opponent will win games more reliably than having the right units but not enough of them. I imagine you could win your games with just Zerglings if your macro is better than your opponent's. Thus, based on the limited information provided, if you want to win more games I'd suggest focusing on your macro. Most people who just start out don't realize how much more they struggle with the "real time" aspect of RTS not the "strategy" part.
If you want a more in depth view, this page addresses a lot of the fundamentals of Hydra/Muta. It is definitely lacking in many ways but may be enough for you to mull over and incorporate into your game, just don't take it as gospel:
Yeah I looked at that guide and it said that there was some debate about which units are best vs mech, which is why I thought it was appropriate to ask here.
I'm familiar with macro being king, and that's been 99% of my focus in practice, but I do want to be practicing correctly. Mass ling vs mech was not it lol.
On November 12 2020 05:51 LeeDawg wrote: What's a good mid game unit composition for zerg vs mech terran? I usually open 12 hatch and go for spire as soon as my lair finishes, but my typical ling-muta-lurker composition doesn't seem to fare well when terran builds lots of factories.
Hydra/Muta is the classic response - Mutas to snipe Tanks, Hydra to win vs. everything else. Things have shifted a bit here and there, seems to be up to personal preference what to go for and the timing of everything depends on what Terran is doing (whether they are going for greedy turtle play or some sort of 2 base push, for example), but I'm not up-to-date enough to comment further. Below top ranks, Hydra/Muta should be fine. Keep in mind you will want a lot of bases and gasses and eco to supply your army, as you will be taking heavy losses frequently. Terran has to hit a critical mass of Tank/Gol to be able to push out, your goal is to be as greedy as possible until they hit that critical mass and then use your superior eco to wear down their push.
Replay in this case would be more useful IMO, as it is a somewhat broad topic and it would make sense to narrow it down to the specific "type" of mech you are facing and losing against.
Thanks! I'm actually super new to 1v1 brood war so most of your advice from a replay should probably just be 'holy shit spend your money and stop getting supply blocked.' since I'm still adjusting to the brood war AI after years of sc2 and UMS games.
But in my most recent games where my terran opponent goes mech and our macro is comparable, my zerglings just turn to dust and I die real fast, so I was curious if I was building the wrong stuff. Sounds like I was.
Sounds like you've self-identified the issue well enough on your own. Having more units, even the wrong units, against an opponent will win games more reliably than having the right units but not enough of them. I imagine you could win your games with just Zerglings if your macro is better than your opponent's. Thus, based on the limited information provided, if you want to win more games I'd suggest focusing on your macro. Most people who just start out don't realize how much more they struggle with the "real time" aspect of RTS not the "strategy" part.
If you want a more in depth view, this page addresses a lot of the fundamentals of Hydra/Muta. It is definitely lacking in many ways but may be enough for you to mull over and incorporate into your game, just don't take it as gospel:
Yeah I looked at that guide and it said that there was some debate about which units are best vs mech, which is why I thought it was appropriate to ask here.
I'm familiar with macro being king, and that's been 99% of my focus in practice, but I do want to be practicing correctly. Mass ling vs mech was not it lol.
I'm having trouble getting conclussions after scouting. I play as Z.
I know the basics, like if I see a P with nexus first, well, I'm safe enough to drone, take 3rd, etc. If I see academy, I can assume Marine-Medic.
The thing is I cannot extract details from small things like, if I see forge working at early game and a couple of zealots, I should I assume a timing attack.
Is there a way of learning those tiny details without watching a ton of games?
Also, I having a lot of trouble calculating two things:
- How many gases and at what time I need those when pulling a strategy or I change my production. Let's say I went mutas and I want to go hydra, do I need 2 gas? 3 gas?
- When to drone like a madman and when to stop. Is there a thumb rule like, X drones per hatchery?
On November 16 2020 01:08 subanchoide wrote: I'm having trouble getting conclussions after scouting. I play as Z.
I know the basics, like if I see a P with nexus first, well, I'm safe enough to drone, take 3rd, etc. If I see academy, I can assume Marine-Medic.
The thing is I cannot extract details from small things like, if I see forge working at early game and a couple of zealots, I should I assume a timing attack.
Is there a way of learning those tiny details without watching a ton of games?
Also, I having a lot of trouble calculating two things:
- How many gases and at what time I need those when pulling a strategy or I change my production. Let's say I went mutas and I want to go hydra, do I need 2 gas? 3 gas?
- When to drone like a madman and when to stop. Is there a thumb rule like, X drones per hatchery?
Thanks!
Sadly no, I feel like watching/playing a lot of games is the best way to develop "game sense" in that regard.
To address the questions more specifically, a spinning Forge does not indicate a timing attack, but a good Protoss will still try to go for one. Which one is a more difficult question. Either way, Protoss should ALWAYS have a spinning Forge when you scout their natural after they have enough gas. It is one of the first things Protoss will always do, because Protoss rely so heavily on having an attack upgrade advantage to make their Zealots more efficient, and then their Archons being powerful enough to one-shot Zerglings as early as possible, AFAIK. So, in other words, no a spinning Forge tells you nothing besides that they are likely going for a Gateway-heavy composition. The only alternatives are stuff like Reaver-Sair, for example.
As for gas-specific questions, build orders on Liquipedia will often tell you exactly how many workers you need on what resource in order to fully fund X hatcheries producing the unit you desire. If you are doing transitions and etc., unfortunately there are not many resources available for knowing the exact count, as it is too case-specific. Go by feel.
There is no rule of thumb for when to Drone and when not to - it is dependent on how aggressive or passive your opponent is. I am not a good Zerg player, but the best "rule" I can come up with is that you should Drone when you can, up until it becomes too dangerous to do so. As Zerg, generally your goals are:
1. Hit unit and tech timings 2. Have just enough units not to die 3. Have more bases than your opponent 4. Overwhelm with superior production in the late-game
I encourage other posters to correct me on any false assumptions. Good luck!
On November 16 2020 01:08 subanchoide wrote: I'm having trouble getting conclussions after scouting. I play as Z.
I know the basics, like if I see a P with nexus first, well, I'm safe enough to drone, take 3rd, etc. If I see academy, I can assume Marine-Medic.
The thing is I cannot extract details from small things like, if I see forge working at early game and a couple of zealots, I should I assume a timing attack.
Is there a way of learning those tiny details without watching a ton of games?
Also, I having a lot of trouble calculating two things:
- How many gases and at what time I need those when pulling a strategy or I change my production. Let's say I went mutas and I want to go hydra, do I need 2 gas? 3 gas?
- When to drone like a madman and when to stop. Is there a thumb rule like, X drones per hatchery?
Thanks!
in ZvP you should have an overlord scouting the protoss natural to confirm +1 weapons timing and when they are sending out zealots. You need another overlord.scouting the main to see their stargate and gateway timings. If the protoss does not have any stargate before 5 minutes but has 3 or more gateways they are probably going mass speedlot.
This is a pretty bad build though (I thought it was worth mentinoning because I see people do something like this on unranked sometimes) so it is way more likely you will see a stargate and like 2-3 gateways. In this case, you usually do not need to make more than 2-3 sunkens in total and you should rely on ramps + drone drill + good sim-city (read about walling on liquipedia) to defend the attack. Also make sure you have a few overlords at the third and natural because protoss like to use sairs to kill overlords while the hydras are dealing with the zealots, making you vulnerable to dark templar. The thing is that not all or even most protoss will do the 7:30 +1 speedlot/sair attack and they might just get a quick +1 so they can push out with a faster +2.
Also, for gas you just need to know that each gas gives approximately 300 gas per minute and larva spawns every 13 seconds and you can calculate what you can make yourself. So with 2 gas you can pump almost pure hydras with a few overlords and drones here and there off of 6.hatcheries. However, you will likely have barely enough gas to spare for bare minimum upgrades like overlord speed and missile attack.
Now on 3 bases, a lot of zerg players do stay on 2 gases for quite a long time (most zerg get their third gas at 7-8 minutes but I've seen a lot of zerg get their third gas beyond like 9 minutes). I don't recommend you stay on 2 gas for very long because pure mass hydra is not an easy style if you are lower level because it takes a lot of apm. Get the third gas so you can make some muta or get lurker tech. If you have 4 bases and you want to make pure hydra with double upgrades and maybe some muta off like 8-9 hatcheries (pretty common style nowadays) then you will need 3 gases, 4 if you want to tech.
As for droning, this probably the most important piece of advice I have. I would say you should have like 13-17 drones a base (this number gets lower the more bases you have). So you should generally have 45 drones off of 3 bases in ZvP, give or take a few, unless the game was very cheesy and protoss is also on low probe count. You should start hydra production at around 40-45 supply (around 35 drones) and once you have around 20ish it is safe to make another round of drones, although it's usually safe to make a few drones here and there while making hydras at this point.
Honestly, I would say zerg is stronger than protoss in ZvP for most of the game but protoss has strong timings at around 6-8 minutes, 11-13 minutes and maybe during their first max-out attack so keep these in mind. In particular, if they are pushing with 8 gates at around 11-12 minutes you should not drone at all (not even at your 4th base, which you should have completed by then in a normal game if you went 5 hatch) because this attack is very dangerous.
On November 16 2020 01:08 subanchoide wrote: I'm having trouble getting conclussions after scouting. I play as Z.
I know the basics, like if I see a P with nexus first, well, I'm safe enough to drone, take 3rd, etc. If I see academy, I can assume Marine-Medic.
The thing is I cannot extract details from small things like, if I see forge working at early game and a couple of zealots, I should I assume a timing attack.
Is there a way of learning those tiny details without watching a ton of games?
Also, I having a lot of trouble calculating two things:
- How many gases and at what time I need those when pulling a strategy or I change my production. Let's say I went mutas and I want to go hydra, do I need 2 gas? 3 gas?
- When to drone like a madman and when to stop. Is there a thumb rule like, X drones per hatchery?
Thanks!
in ZvP you should have an overlord scouting the protoss natural to confirm +1 weapons timing and when they are sending out zealots. You need another overlord.scouting the main to see their stargate and gateway timings. If the protoss does not have any stargate before 5 minutes but has 3 or more gateways they are probably going mass speedlot.
It depends on the map, no? In some locations on FS, an Overlord scout cannot confirm +1 spinning. In general and assuming standard FFE, it is your Zerglings that confirm the spin.
The Overlord scouting the main is not a 100% guarantee either, in my limited experience. It is difficult to talk about hypothetical scenarios, but many Zerg at mid-high level don't do this because they can rely on their own control/read of the situation and I don't think it is absolutely necessary. Is it good for learning? Yes. Is it 100% necessary? No IMO.
On November 16 2020 08:40 Anc13nt wrote: This is a pretty bad build though (I thought it was worth mentinoning because I see people do something like this on unranked sometimes) so it is way more likely you will see a stargate and like 2-3 gateways.
Your Overlord should never see this combination, right? Gates after Stargate are added at the same time as Templar Archives, well after the first Corsair. At this point, Zerg should be blind, no? Or am I missing something...
On November 16 2020 08:40 Anc13nt wrote: In this case, you usually do not need to make more than 2-3 sunkens in total and you should rely on ramps + drone drill + good sim-city (read about walling on liquipedia) to defend the attack. Also make sure you have a few overlords at the third and natural because protoss like to use sairs to kill overlords while the hydras are dealing with the zealots, making you vulnerable to dark templar. The thing is that not all or even most protoss will do the 7:30 +1 speedlot/sair attack and they might just get a quick +1 so they can push out with a faster +2.
While I agree with the concept of skipping the 7:30 timing to hit a stronger +2, I believe that having that many Sunkens is actually an outdated approach to ZvP considering the Hydra-heavy play we see nowadays. Zerg can get away with 0 static defense if their simcity and control is good enough. Pulling Drones is a good tactic but a better tactic is awareness and preparation. Being aware of enemy army movements with Zerglings from the start of the game, taking near 3rd (map-dependent) etc. Again, sorry if I am off-base here because I am talking about my experience as a frequent VOD viewer, Protoss main, and shitty ZvP player, but that is how it seems to me.
On November 16 2020 08:40 Anc13nt wrote: Also, for gas you just need to know that each gas gives approximately 300 gas per minute and larva spawns every 13 seconds and you can calculate what you can make yourself. So with 2 gas you can pump almost pure hydras with a few overlords and drones here and there off of 6.hatcheries. However, you will likely have barely enough gas to spare for bare minimum upgrades like overlord speed and missile attack.
This sounds about right and is a good benchmark. I don't want to make it seem like I am actively denouncing everything you say, but I do disagree with some of the other things you said and I've quoted them already so I felt I should just continue providing meta-advice based on your response. Hope you do not mind.
On November 16 2020 08:40 Anc13nt wrote:Now on 3 bases, a lot of zerg players do stay on 2 gases for quite a long time (most zerg get their third gas at 7-8 minutes but I've seen a lot of zerg get their third gas beyond like 9 minutes). I don't recommend you stay on 2 gas for very long because pure mass hydra is not an easy style if you are lower level because it takes a lot of apm. Get the third gas so you can make some muta or get lurker tech. If you have 4 bases and you want to make pure hydra with double upgrades and maybe some muta off like 8-9 hatcheries (pretty common style nowadays) then you will need 3 gases, 4 if you want to tech.
As for droning, this probably the most important piece of advice I have. I would say you should have like 13-17 drones a base (this number gets lower the more bases you have). So you should generally have 45 drones off of 3 bases in ZvP, give or take a few, unless the game was very cheesy and protoss is also on low probe count. You should start hydra production at around 40-45 supply (around 35 drones) and once you have around 20ish it is safe to make another round of drones, although it's usually safe to make a few drones here and there while making hydras at this point.
Most of this reads correct for me. It is truly astounding what Zerg can shit out with such a low Drone count. Pardon the cursing.
On November 16 2020 08:40 Anc13nt wrote:Honestly, I would say zerg is stronger than protoss in ZvP for most of the game but protoss has strong timings at around 6-8 minutes, 11-13 minutes and maybe during their first max-out attack so keep these in mind.
Super true,
On November 16 2020 08:40 Anc13nt wrote: In particular, if they are pushing with 8 gates at around 11-12 minutes you should not drone at all (not even at your 4th base, which you should have completed by then in a normal game if you went 5 hatch) because this attack is very dangerous.
There are a number of 8 Gate timings that exist but most have been dated by better- and earlier- hitting mid-game Zerg Hydralisk and tech timings IMO. Of course we all have just a sliver of what it means to be a progamer and what their builds are, but in practice it seems that the average Zerg player doesn't go for the 2009-style 4 base turtle (8 Gate Dragoon timing "beats" it) and their 3 base Hydra control makes 8 Gate Zealot/Templar composition a crapshoot at best, so I would venture to say that timing is not as much of a dangerous factor as much as it is a necessary move for many Protoss to reclaim map control and secure their own 3rd against a heavy Hydralisk style. It should be an expected part of playing ZvP, not some mystical BO that is too deadly to defend against without being a superior/safer player, because its sole intention is to make the game even, not to win the game outright, AFAIK.
Again, sorry if I am off-base on anything here - just elaborating from the Protoss POV.
np I think your criticisms of my advice are fair. My advice about overlord scouting was not very good. Honestly a lot of it was theory crafting as I have been mainly playing protoss for a while now but I used to main zerg. You are right that you will not see protoss with 2-3 gates + stargate with the overlord because protoss adds their gates at like 5:45-6:00 minutes and overlord will confirm +1 weapons too late in the case of a diagonal spawn.
I checked a couple VODs on youtube and most pro zerg run their overlord away at around 4:30 so they can get some distance away from the second corsair (since most protoss are not greedy enough to try to kill the overlord with their first sair). So most zerg players are content with very little information about what protoss is doing in the early-mid game.
As for the sunkens I think it is generally the case that you don't need them unless protoss is cutting a lot of probes. You only truly need them if you are going muta. Pro zergs are usually very cheap with static defense unless protoss is going 8 gate. I do still recommend 1-2 sunkens (3 is usually excessive yeah) at lower level because I think dying to speedlots is very common in lower level (honestly still happens to me every now and then if the protoss is like A rank).
Well guys, thank you so much. This is more than enough! I'll have to improve a lot of things before many of the stuff quoted here, but it will all be saved
On November 19 2020 13:06 LeeDawg wrote: What's the best way to practice muta micro vs marines? I've been making custom games vs the computer, but it seems like there should be a better way.
On November 19 2020 13:06 LeeDawg wrote: What's the best way to practice muta micro vs marines? I've been making custom games vs the computer, but it seems like there should be a better way.
EPT
Zerg vs. Mech Terran Guide
