Have the recommended standard builds for low rank players changed in the last few years? and if yes, what are the current ones for ZvT and ZvP? The most recent authoritative source I know of is Jaedong's ZvT and ZvP lesson for F rank players from 2017.
Longer version: I'm playing Zerg in E rank (1350-1400 MMR). When I learned to play (around 2008-2010), I learned that in F/E/D ranks we should use 3 Hatch Muta vs T and 3 Hatch Spire/5 Hatch Hydra vs P (and these are what JD's video shows). I don't know the exact builds for other races but basically I expect my opponents to use Barracks expand into bio and Forge expand. Recently I'm seeing a lot of weird stuff like Factory or Gateway openings, so I wanted to ask if the standard builds for low ranks have changed? and if yes, then what is the build I should use for each ZvX matchup in 2020? or are these people just messing around with non-standard builds and I should ignore them.
For example, the ZvP build says "This guide assumes the Protoss player is Forge FE-ing". Is that assumption stlil valid today, or should I be using a newer ZvP build that can handle a Gateway opening?
On November 23 2020 05:02 tarpman wrote: Have the recommended standard builds for low rank players changed in the last few years? and if yes, what are the current ones for ZvT and ZvP? The most recent authoritative source I know of is Jaedong's ZvT and ZvP lesson for F rank players from 2017.
Longer version: I'm playing Zerg in E rank (1350-1400 MMR). When I learned to play (around 2008-2010), I learned that in F/E/D ranks we should use 3 Hatch Muta vs T and 3 Hatch Spire/5 Hatch Hydra vs P (and these are what JD's video shows). I don't know the exact builds for other races but basically I expect my opponents to use Barracks expand into bio and Forge expand. Recently I'm seeing a lot of weird stuff like Factory or Gateway openings, so I wanted to ask if the standard builds for low ranks have changed? and if yes, then what is the build I should use for each ZvX matchup in 2020? or are these people just messing around with non-standard builds and I should ignore them.
For example, the ZvP build says "This guide assumes the Protoss player is Forge FE-ing". Is that assumption stlil valid today, or should I be using a newer ZvP build that can handle a Gateway opening?
The problem is, "meta" is almost irrelevant at low ranks. People just do random shit. Those two builds are still relatively decent and will get you results if done better than your opponent doing whatever they are doing. Consistent macro is more important than overall build choice at low ranks.
However, most recently 2 or 2.5 Hatch Mutalisk have been preferred over 3 Hatch (because of "Factory" openings, or more accurately, 1-1-1 build [1 rax 1 fac 1 port]), and 5/6 Hatch Hydra in ZvP have been preferred over 3 Hatch Muta 5 Hatch Hydra - a build called "9734" I believe, if you want to look that up. That's as far as I know, perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Z could correct me if there are more recent shifts. If you want to try these new builds out and see how they feel? Great. If you have more success/comfort with the ones you learned in 2008/2010? Those will still work just fine if done well.
As far as Gateway openings, it's mode to open with something like Overpool now in order to help secure your natural and force the Zealots to stay at home. I expect that the micro at E rank is not really there to actually do a lot of damage in the face of Overpool, so most will just run back/stay at home and go Forge Nexus behind it as usual, just in a different order than before and slightly delayed.
But, again, you can't go into a low rank game thinking "I'm gonna do 9734 and win in the mid-game with a Hydra push", you have react to whatever bullshit your opponent is doing and play accordingly. It's not bad to have that idea from the outset and then use it when it is appropriate, but you'll find more success reacting to your opponent and simply outplaying them mechanically.
I would argue that 1 gate expand at low rank is asking to die. Once you see it make lings and just go kill him. If you dont do critical damage but at least force him back just drone up and get some hydras (3 hatch hydra lings) and go. Or if he turtles with canons etc you can drone hard.
2 gates now is a different matter and requires you to identify the threat. You also absolutely need the 2nd hatch to keep up with production or you will die.
973 : 3 h hydra, the numbers mean 9 drones on minerals in the main, 7 nat and 3 at 3rd to support constant hydra production, get hydra speed first then range. 9734: same but instead of keeping the hydra production make like 6-10 and take your 4th behind the pressure while droning. If you force cannons you re good. Try to kill the forge. Get lair and detection (to defend from dts).
ZvT: 2 or 3h mutas are still solid. 2h lurker allins are also doable if you dont like a map or smthg.
On November 23 2020 05:32 Jealous wrote: The problem is, "meta" is almost irrelevant at low ranks. People just do random shit.
Very true! So I should also have asked, what is the standard build today for TvZ and PvZ? I'm only trying to improve my standard play, random shit I'm fine with just leaving and hitting play again, there's no prize for winning and I don't have time to learn to play against everything under the sun.
On November 23 2020 05:32 Jealous wrote: However, most recently 2 or 2.5 Hatch Mutalisk have been preferred over 3 Hatch (because of "Factory" openings, or more accurately, 1-1-1 build [1 rax 1 fac 1 port]), and 5/6 Hatch Hydra in ZvP have been preferred over 3 Hatch Muta 5 Hatch Hydra - a build called "9734" I believe, if you want to look that up.
Thank you! Is 2.5 Hatch a real build? I don't know how to make half a Hatchery... Is 2 Hatch or 2.5 Hatch the right one to use at E rank?
I do see some 1-1-1, but also Goliath rushes seem to be popular right now, which just laugh at my nine mutalisks and two lurkers. Is 1-1-1 the standard for low rank Terran today? and the Goliath rushes are just random shit?
On November 23 2020 05:32 Jealous wrote: As far as Gateway openings, it's mode to open with something like Overpool now in order to help secure your natural and force the Zealots to stay at home.
I've always used overpool; that's the only way to avoid getting my natural delayed, except maybe on a large 4P map. But the build I learned makes 4 lings to chase out the probe, and then drones up to 42 before switching to producing Hydras, and obviously this just loses if the opponent sends Zealots too early. So that's why I wanted to ask whether Gateway or Forge is the standard opening today, and if Gateway is the standard now, if there is a new standard Zerg build to go with it. I assume the build you mentioned will handle this if I do it correctly.
On November 23 2020 05:32 Jealous wrote: But, again, you can't go into a low rank game thinking "I'm gonna do 9734 and win in the mid-game with a Hydra push"
Definitely not! I would never try to win a game with a rush or timing attack. The mindset should always be to reach hive tech on even footing (by correctly executing the standard build) and begin a macro game from there, right? Although some days this feels like an uncommon attitude on ladder
On November 23 2020 09:21 WGT-Baal wrote: I would argue that 1 gate expand at low rank is asking to die. Once you see it make lings and just go kill him.
The ZvP build I learned makes 4 lings initially, and then drones to 42. But even if the new build makes more lings than that, we should not try to end the game early, but just "get more ahead" (continue executing the standard build) and win with hive tech, right?
On November 23 2020 09:21 WGT-Baal wrote: 9734: same but instead of keeping the hydra production make like 6-10 and take your 4th behind the pressure while droning.
Thank you! As Jealous said, this one is the new standard build I should use from now on, right? I didn't find it on Liquipedia, is Zero's tutorial the exact build order I should use? Looks like a helpful person on Reddit even wrote it down.
On November 23 2020 09:21 WGT-Baal wrote: ZvT: 2 or 3h mutas are still solid. 2h lurker allins are also doable if you dont like a map or smthg.
Thank you! But which one is the standard one that I should use as a low rank zerg? 2 Hatch Muta like Jealous said, right?
On November 23 2020 13:13 tarpman wrote: Very true! So I should also have asked, what is the standard build today for TvZ and PvZ? I'm only trying to improve my standard play, random shit I'm fine with just leaving and hitting play again, there's no prize for winning and I don't have time to learn to play against everything under the sun.
Thank you! Is 2.5 Hatch a real build? I don't know how to make half a Hatchery... Is 2 Hatch or 2.5 Hatch the right one to use at E rank?
2.5 Hatch refers to the fact that you start your lair before your 3rd Hatchery is finished, hence 2.5 Hatchery. Both are viable on paper. 2 Hatch is more aggressive, 2.5 Hatch was brought in as a response to 1-1-1 and other similar early Mech plays because it forces Terran to invest into AA earlier than vs. 3 Hatch. Some searching on TL should give you more detailed answers.
On November 23 2020 13:13 tarpman wrote: I do see some 1-1-1, but also Goliath rushes seem to be popular right now, which just laugh at my nine mutalisks and two lurkers. Is 1-1-1 the standard for low rank Terran today? and the Goliath rushes are just random shit?
I can't speak too much on what is common at low levels at the moment, and beyond that, there are a ton of different Goliath builds - again, especially at low ranks. In theory constant Mutalisk production and hitting an earlier timing should punish/stall 2 base Goliath pushes, but of course the onus is on you to control and multitask well when there is slightly less pressure for the Terran player to do so, especially if they don't get caught with their pants down and opened very safe. It's a bit counterintuitive, because it would seem like Hydralisk is the correct response, but it seems that it's very difficult to get an adequate number of them in time for most aggressive Goliath pushes from what I've seen. Your goal is to keep them in their base and get +1 Air Carapace (technically, Goliath anti-air hits twice, meaning each Carapace upgrade is twice as effective - and even more important considering most meching Terrans will go for attack first of their own which gives +2, which cancels it out) while getting an eco lead, forcing Turrets, sniping SCVs and Goliaths, and keeping them generally occupied as your numbers climb. Remember that they can't get Vessel or Irradiate in a timely manner while doing so, so Mutalisks are viable for longer. That's my understanding but, again, any higher level Terran is more than welcome to correct me on any false assumptions. I know some Zergs argue against this approach vehemently but I feel like that may be in part because they lose
Earlier Goliath builds, old school LT-style Goliath drop/1 base plays, are still present out there - as discussed before, people do crazy shit. For those, Sunks and Hydras may actually be enough to stall them out simply because their production can't be all that strong.
TL;DR: There are too many Goliath builds to give a definitive answer but try hitting an earlier Mutalisk timing, keeping up the pressure, and getting +1 Air Carapace.
On November 23 2020 13:13 tarpman wrote: I've always used overpool; that's the only way to avoid getting my natural delayed, except maybe on a large 4P map. But the build I learned makes 4 lings to chase out the probe, and then drones up to 42 before switching to producing Hydras, and obviously this just loses if the opponent sends Zealots too early. So that's why I wanted to ask whether Gateway or Forge is the standard opening today, and if Gateway is the standard now, if there is a new standard Zerg build to go with it. I assume the build you mentioned will handle this if I do it correctly.
Gateway- and Forge-first are both equally viable at the moment, and I'm sorry to keep repeating this, but it's impossible to say what is "standard" at low ranks. Both are seen in all levels of play in my experience. FFE is a bit safer/less-multitask-intensive, so should in theory be the preferred approach for lower ranked players. However, as you note, there are earlier Zealot pressure approaches to even FFE, including moving out with 3 Zealots to force back Zerglings/force Sunks/stop Drone production, as well as the "Neo Bisu Build" which is a timing attack with Speed and +1. 973 and 9734, as WGT-Baal said, refer to the amount of drones you have at each base, so definitely far lower than the 42 you may be used to doing. That is the bare-bones necessary economy to pump non-stop Hydralisks to both apply pressure and defend against any army that Protoss can generally generate at this juncture of the game. So, TL;DR: Yes.
On November 23 2020 13:13 tarpman wrote: Definitely not! I would never try to win a game with a rush or timing attack. The mindset should always be to reach hive tech on even footing (by correctly executing the standard build) and begin a macro game from there, right? Although some days this feels like an uncommon attitude on ladder
While I do believe that that mindset is a good way to get better at all stages of the game, and is especially applicable on Ladder because you generally face a different opponent each game so they can't abuse you, sometimes you have to play according to what's going on. If you see a Terran going for some crazy 14CC into fast Factory off 2 Marines and 0 Bunkers, you just roll them with Zerglings without shame; think of it as them doing "eco cheese".
It should be noted that particularly in ZvP, a common strategy now is to apply pressure with Hydralisks and then assess the situation - if they did not add enough Cannons on time, you continue Hydralisk production and just win the game. If they did, then you can back off knowing you caused significant economic damage by forcing them to rebuild a Forge, Gateway, and a bunch of Cannons despite you only having like 8 Hydras. So, in a sense, I am saying that you shouldn't completely cross rush/timing attack out of your list of approaches, because your opponents almost certainly won't.
Wow! Thank you so much Jealous for the comprehensive response. Honestly, I posted in this thread because I thought the answer would be a quick "yup, here is the link to Jaedong's ZvT/ZvP tutorial for F rank players, 2020 edition". But from the your and Baal's responses it sounds like there is no longer one "recommended" build order per matchup for beginners/low rankers... Playing at D/D+ rank was a lot less complicated when all I had to remember was "9 mutalisks, 4 lurkers, go for hive" and "2 scourge, 40 drones, hydras forever"
@tarpman Its super important in zvp to keep tabs on the protoss zealot production so you have enough lings to deal with his potential move out. He can move out with one, three, five or wait for his +1 and speed timing.. Anything can happen so you need to keep tabs on what hes doing so you react appropriately. If you just make 4 lings and blindly drone to 42 you're gonna have a hard time.
Since we've been discussing PvZ a lot lately here's my two cents.
@Protoss brethren, how do you manage your HTs in your control groups? Bonus - tips for obs control is appreciated too. Specifically for PvZ.
I've tried the following: 1. Having it in a separate control group (possibly with an obs). I do not like that since it's a bit more difficult to do the infamous protoss A-move that way. Still ok for controlling but the main issue is the HTs clump up at a given area and are easy pickings for the zerg. 2. Having them with the army - I suppose that is a bit better, but still that way they end up "stuck" behind a goon for example and when you order them to storm they take a billion years to finally position themselves (time by which your main army has likely died)
Also when doing the great 1a2a3a... tactic that we all love, HTs would again seem to clump up in front of my army and the Zerg (or their static D yikes ) will focus them first. I have played around with selecting all HTs at some point during the battle and issuing a stop command so they do not go at the frontline because they feel like it. But that again ends up going back to the "positioning takes a billion years" issue :/
So guess my two main questions are: 1. What strategy do you use to move them around? 2. How do you prevent them from being part of the frontline? 3. How/where do you position them during battle to maximize their effectiveness?
On November 25 2020 21:14 y2kid wrote: Since we've been discussing PvZ a lot lately here's my two cents.
@Protoss brethren, how do you manage your HTs in your control groups? Bonus - tips for obs control is appreciated too. Specifically for PvZ.
I've tried the following: 1. Having it in a separate control group (possibly with an obs). I do not like that since it's a bit more difficult to do the infamous protoss A-move that way. Still ok for controlling but the main issue is the HTs clump up at a given area and are easy pickings for the zerg. 2. Having them with the army - I suppose that is a bit better, but still that way they end up "stuck" behind a goon for example and when you order them to storm they take a billion years to finally position themselves (time by which your main army has likely died)
Also when doing the great 1a2a3a... tactic that we all love, HTs would again seem to clump up in front of my army and the Zerg (or their static D yikes ) will focus them first. I have played around with selecting all HTs at some point during the battle and issuing a stop command so they do not go at the frontline because they feel like it. But that again ends up going back to the "positioning takes a billion years" issue :/
So guess my two main questions are: 1. What strategy do you use to move them around? 2. How do you prevent them from being part of the frontline? 3. How/where do you position them during battle to maximize their effectiveness?
So I've thought about this for a long time too and I came up with the best solution that works for me. Have all your Templar that moves with the army on one control group. Always designate that control group for templars. Include at least one unit that can attack in that group so you can attack move. Doing it this way allows you to see your Templar energy with just a key press. It's also easy for you to move them back since you always know what group they are in. Keep them in the middle of your army. In PvZ, the enemy will always flank so you gotta keep your other units surrounding the templars. Use your other units as walls.
Mix other units with the Templar group.
About obs, I like having an entire control group just for them. I rarely lose obs now since I started doing that.
As protoss I found that 6 army groups are more than enough. The rest can be used for obs and macro buildings / nexus.
On November 23 2020 16:31 tarpman wrote: Wow! Thank you so much Jealous for the comprehensive response. Honestly, I posted in this thread because I thought the answer would be a quick "yup, here is the link to Jaedong's ZvT/ZvP tutorial for F rank players, 2020 edition". But from the your and Baal's responses it sounds like there is no longer one "recommended" build order per matchup for beginners/low rankers... Playing at D/D+ rank was a lot less complicated when all I had to remember was "9 mutalisks, 4 lurkers, go for hive" and "2 scourge, 40 drones, hydras forever"
I would say most people alternate between at least 2 builds (excluding cheese) to keep things fun. I usually open ffe more often nowadays but like for 10games i would do 6 ffe, 3 gate expand and one 2 gate (proxied or not, map dependent). I also go into the game having already decided which of those i m gonna use. For zerg especially it is important for you to be flexible with your build and adapt to what you see. As return and jealous said, you cant let a terran go 14cc factory without punishing it, and you can't defend a mild P pressure with only 4 lings (and obviously you need to see it coming). In the same way as vs T you will want to adapt if it s mech or bio. As for zvz i would personally advise you to go 12pool everytime. It s never amazing but it s usually ok vs most things (you will probably die to 5pool but well...)
Tldr: it s important to go into a game with a plan, but you also need to adapt to the situation you re in. You want 42 drones 4 lings then make 15 hydra (for example). Well if you need to defend you can make 25drones 15hydras, survive, then the renaining 17drones. You end up with the same army you planned initially. But this time you didn't die
When you gift SC:R to someone via email through Battle.net app, can that gift(code?) be used by another email or is the gift "bound" to that email specifically? For example I would gift a copy of SC:R to johndoe@gmail.com but John wouldn't want to play SC:R and never use it, so I ask him to forward the gift/email to other friend who would than use it.
surprising. Maybe I should have formulated my question better. I don't know how to break the lurker contain on that map and I'm not sure how to prevent it from happen either with standard.
This link was not meant as a mean "see the stats, fool!"-kind of comment by the way. Benzene might still be harder for certain races on certain levels than the pro-games reflect or for you personally because some piece of advice is missing. I just made the experience that many people don't even know TLPD as a resource for self-study and wanted to point you to it. I thought you might find some good games to look into, mb of your favorite players even. All games pre 2012 obviously, but still relevant in most cases.
Not really a "simple answer" tho, so sorry for that.
~1800 zerg here, whats the correct response vs Gateway FE? I basically got to B off of standard ZvT, ZvZ, and going 973 ZvP. Now I just can not beat protoss players at this rank who dont go forge FE. I just got back into BW about a month ago and feel like I'm playing like its 2010. I've been doing standard overpool, 3 hatch, gas after 3rd, lair, spire, then hydras but it feels like toss is able to pressure with zealots so I have to make lings, expand, and tech all at the same time. Anyone know of any good games to watch to learn from?
On November 30 2020 09:25 Megaliskuu wrote: ~1800 zerg here, whats the correct response vs Gateway FE? I basically got to B off of standard ZvT, ZvZ, and going 973 ZvP. Now I just can not beat protoss players at this rank who dont go forge FE. I just got back into BW about a month ago and feel like I'm playing like its 2010. I've been doing standard overpool, 3 hatch, gas after 3rd, lair, spire, then hydras but it feels like toss is able to pressure with zealots so I have to make lings, expand, and tech all at the same time. Anyone know of any good games to watch to learn from?
Are you pressuring with your first Hydra before going Lair/Spire?
On November 30 2020 09:25 Megaliskuu wrote: ~1800 zerg here, whats the correct response vs Gateway FE? I basically got to B off of standard ZvT, ZvZ, and going 973 ZvP. Now I just can not beat protoss players at this rank who dont go forge FE. I just got back into BW about a month ago and feel like I'm playing like its 2010. I've been doing standard overpool, 3 hatch, gas after 3rd, lair, spire, then hydras but it feels like toss is able to pressure with zealots so I have to make lings, expand, and tech all at the same time. Anyone know of any good games to watch to learn from?
Are you pressuring with your first Hydra before going Lair/Spire?
If I choose to open 973 then yea but they will usually have a good number of zealots to fend off any pressure by the time hydra range is done and I can apply forge pressure. If I don't open 973 I've been doing 3 hatch spire opening followed with hydras.
EDIT: I think part of the problem is I don't actually know the modern standard ZvP build besides 973 opener maybe I should start there
On November 30 2020 09:25 Megaliskuu wrote: ~1800 zerg here, whats the correct response vs Gateway FE? I basically got to B off of standard ZvT, ZvZ, and going 973 ZvP. Now I just can not beat protoss players at this rank who dont go forge FE. I just got back into BW about a month ago and feel like I'm playing like its 2010. I've been doing standard overpool, 3 hatch, gas after 3rd, lair, spire, then hydras but it feels like toss is able to pressure with zealots so I have to make lings, expand, and tech all at the same time. Anyone know of any good games to watch to learn from?
Are you pressuring with your first Hydra before going Lair/Spire?
If I choose to open 973 then yea but they will usually have a good number of zealots to fend off any pressure by the time hydra range is done and I can apply forge pressure. If I don't open 973 I've been doing 3 hatch spire opening followed with hydras.
EDIT: I think part of the problem is I don't actually know the modern standard ZvP build besides 973 opener maybe I should start there
I'd suggest sharing a replay in this case because I feel like Gate expand should not do much damage against overpool into 973; it may come down to control/choosing engagememts?
On November 30 2020 09:25 Megaliskuu wrote: ~1800 zerg here, whats the correct response vs Gateway FE? I basically got to B off of standard ZvT, ZvZ, and going 973 ZvP. Now I just can not beat protoss players at this rank who dont go forge FE. I just got back into BW about a month ago and feel like I'm playing like its 2010. I've been doing standard overpool, 3 hatch, gas after 3rd, lair, spire, then hydras but it feels like toss is able to pressure with zealots so I have to make lings, expand, and tech all at the same time. Anyone know of any good games to watch to learn from?
i recommend going 4 hatch before gas as a response to gateway first but if you do get a gas, you don't need to fully saturate it for a while since protoss will have later stargate. I don't like going 973 after a gateway first because you're going to have pretty bad economy if the protoss is forces enough lings and protoss will also have more zealots to deal with when you attack with hydras.
I am speaking from personal experience here. If you want a proper guide here it is:
EPT
Is 2 Hatch or 2.5 Hatch the right one to use at E rank?
Playing at D/D+ rank was a lot less complicated when all I had to remember was "9 mutalisks, 4 lurkers, go for hive" and "2 scourge, 40 drones, hydras forever" 
) will focus them first. I have played around with selecting all HTs at some point during the battle and issuing a stop command so they do not go at the frontline because they feel like it. But that again ends up going back to the "positioning takes a billion years" issue :/
