EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 461
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8940 Posts
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8940 Posts
the timings are obviously different but thats not the main part. "priority" is pretty self explanatory but in case you didnt understand, it describes the freedom to do something relatively uncontested. if you go 3 hatch then the terran has priority over the early game and therefore can do whatever he wants until your mutas are up. maybe hell skip a bunker in favour of more scvs or faster tech. maybe hell build a proxy fac or stargate and you wont notice until too late. you get the point if zerg goes 2 hatch the priority goes the other way. your zerglings are constantly pressuring terran which forces a bunker and means terran cant cut corners for eco. ideally your zerglings/overlord also checks terran tech so you know what terran is going faster than if you had to wait for 3 hatch mutas to fly over. +1 5 rax is also a strong build that terran cant go because it cant deal with 2 hatch mutas. the low barracks count also forces terran to invest more in turrets, which is costly given the already comparably worse eco than when playing against 3 hatch. your worse eco is traded off for equally worse eco on terrans side, but simultaneously more map pressure, better scouting, sufficient harrass potential and sufficient potential for zerg to still drone up, tech, expand and macro in the mid game. | ||
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Jealous
10413 Posts
On December 01 2020 02:16 LeeDawg wrote: I think my confusion stems from how 2 hatches results in more pressure rather than less, since you have less larva. Is the 3 hatch player typically droning harder? every time I've built only 2 hatches, I've had more minerals than I can spend, but I'm also being as greedy with drones as I can. Because your Mutalisks spawn earlier. | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
On December 01 2020 02:16 LeeDawg wrote: I think my confusion stems from how 2 hatches results in more pressure rather than less, since you have less larva. Is the 3 hatch player typically droning harder? every time I've built only 2 hatches, I've had more minerals than I can spend, but I'm also being as greedy with drones as I can. As Jealous said, 2hatch has the mutas earlier, I think around 30 seconds to 1 minute depending on the build. Doesn't seem like much, but as things stand with Terran build-orders, that time makes all the difference. Terrans can squeeze out juuust enough turrets against 2hatch and they have to keep building more, they'll likely lose all their first few marines, too. Against 3hatch on the other hand, they can sometimes get away with 3-4 turrets overall because they have so many (fully upgraded) marines already that they can scare the muta-flock away, and Terran's economy is bigger behind all that. Also, facing 2hatch doesn't give Terrans enough time and resources and tranquility to start all the tech that they might want to go for on time. The big downside of 2hatch is that, should Terran deal with the earlier mutas cleanly and be able to counter attack too soon, Zerg is much more fragile due to a smaller economy, maybe also later/missing tech-transitions. If you had "more minerals than you can spend" with 2 hatch, I'm pretty sure it means that you have to practice your build-order and macro some more - or you have a flawed build-order. As for the drones, you should have an (almost) exact amount with such a slim build. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8940 Posts
2 hatch also drones less, meaning terran has to be wary of zergling all-ins or run bys more than a 3 hatch build where typically zerg spends a bit of time droning up more. hence the early bunker vs 2 hatch compared to late or no bunker vs 3h | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On November 30 2020 15:20 Anc13nt wrote: i recommend going 4 hatch before gas as a response to gateway first but if you do get a gas, you don't need to fully saturate it for a while since protoss will have later stargate. I don't like going 973 after a gateway first because you're going to have pretty bad economy if the protoss is forces enough lings and protoss will also have more zealots to deal with when you attack with hydras. I am speaking from personal experience here. If you want a proper guide here it is: Lol wtf i searched through jinjins channel several times for a ZvP 1 gate FE video and didn't see it. Thx I will def watch this. The 973 video alone got me from C to B hopefully this will up my game some more. | ||
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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dark.matter
179 Posts
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Jealous
10413 Posts
On December 02 2020 16:03 dark.matter wrote: Any good examples of vessel placement / use vs protoss? It's my biggest weakness atm. It always seems like such an attention sink to even use them when I'm trying to do 100 other things, and then even getting a good emp off is challenging. Any particular maps giving you trouble? From what I've seen, rule of thumb is outside your forward-most bases like your 3rd and 4th, adding vision to susceptible flight paths, for example. Mines help in the middle of the map on most maps so that you can pull one from either if it is going toward main. For example, on FS, it may look like this AFAIK: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/eNJ5E1V.png) This is of course assuming you have adequate mine coverage elsewhere on the map preventing a perpendicular fly-in from center to any of those bases above. Green circle = Vessel position. | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
On December 02 2020 16:03 dark.matter wrote: Any good examples of vessel placement / use vs protoss? It's my biggest weakness atm. It always seems like such an attention sink to even use them when I'm trying to do 100 other things, and then even getting a good emp off is challenging. Like Jealous said: Just as important as vessel-position is good vision/map-coverage in the perimeter of your base: lay mine-fields for that purpose, and fly any non-producing building that you have (ebay, barracks, science facility) to create a ring of vision. In the lategame you should have enough resources to just build another barracks or two to do this. Then place vessels so that you can react anywhere you need. Don't place your vessels too far out, or an arbiter might already have passed your vessel if you don't react immediatelly. Having the awareness/multi-tasking to constantly keep checking your minimap is whole other issue obviously, but having everything you need in place is the first step. There are certain 'usual suspects'-positions where you can park a vessel if you have enough of them, basically to cover the lanes where arbiters tend to come through. On FS for example the most important are: to the edges of the map at your natural and 3rd, and across the mostly un-bulidable terrain between your natural and 3rd. Good Protoss players will mix it up though. So I put a vessel close to each of my expansions' CCs to be able to react in multiple directions, and then another one above the cliff right above the said unbuildable terrain. Good Protoss players will also expect your EMP and try to dodge it. If you think that they'll dodge your vessel, you should try to move as close to the arbiter as possible before firing your EMP, so that they have less time to dodge. Use turrets to cover the said key-positions, oftentimes they will make an arbiter turn around, lowering the shields and preventing another recall-attempt for a while. And add a few turrets in your main as well to clean up arbiters that slipped through your outer ring of defense. Mine up your base where you expect recalls to go down. Also, overall, keep in mind the principle that attack is the best defense: The more time you spend on preparing for a recall, the more time Protoss has to expand, grow bigger, come with multiple recalls later on. The more vessels you leave at home, the less EMPs/D-Matrix you have to attack. That doesn't mean that you should just attack and yolo the recall-problem, but generally speaking you shouldn't delay a possible good early +2/+1-maxed-push because you're busy setting up recall-defenses when you could just attack and force him/her to use the arbiter defensively. As for vessel-use while your're attacking: When you bring multiple vessels for a push, don't clump them all up or they'll all get stasised at once. If I have more than one and I can't keep them from clumping up, I just separate some from the group and let them follow a random tank. Chances are high that keeps them spread out enough. Keep scanning ahead or use vultures to see where Protoss' army is and look out for chances to EMP arbiters that are closing in to stasis you, or to EMP multiple arbiters that are just hovering around (you can do this more often than you might think). In many situations it's worth it to lose a vessel if that allows you to take 2-3 EMPs out of the equation for a while. As you said, with all the stuff that you have to do in the lategame anyway, having the awareness to make good use of your vessels is really difficult, but also crucial to improve your lategame performance, not only in TvP but just as much in TvZ. I think it's one of the tactical skills that you have to improve a lot to get from solid B to solid A or something. | ||
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Jealous
10413 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Trigger Warning] + ![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/421808419482370059/778200763200831508/MM6TQAH.gif) ![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/421808419482370059/778202225708761138/doFt1sW.gif) | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3577 Posts
2nd one how does the EMP miss? oO | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
It didn't miss. The teleportation doesn't happen instantly (first there is an animation over the units that are meant to be recalled), but the 150 energy for the spell get substracted from the arbiter's energy-pool immediatelly when you issue the command. So if the EMP hits after the recall has already been cast, it will still go through. If you look closely, that's also what happens in the first one. | ||
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Jealous
10413 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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