On October 23 2018 01:11 Alpha-NP- wrote: What I mostly was trying to ask is when to prefer getting Reavers or HTs in PvZ?
HTs are definitely more versatile. It's considered standard to go for HT. You can turn them into Archons if you see archons. While going reaver first is definitely viable it is not nearly as commonas HT as it is more immobile can be vulnerable to snipes (mutas/scourages sniping the shuttle etc...)
On October 22 2018 01:35 Alpha-NP- wrote: Why did someone tell me Reavers are the counter to Dark Swarm and not Psi Storm?
Reavers are essential lategame units in addition to Psi Storm. They work much better vs. Ultralisks than Storm does.
On October 23 2018 01:11 Alpha-NP- wrote: What I mostly was trying to ask is when to prefer getting Reavers or HTs in PvZ?
Reaver openings have largely fallen out of favor because of shifts in the map pool. People opted for Reaver/Sair in the Andromeda era because of the island expansions, the super safe naturals, as well as other factors. There aren't many maps nowadays that are conducive to Reaver/Sair PvZ. Sparkle is a recent example of a map that was suitable for it.
In terms of overall gameplay, see above. You generally want to have HT until you get to the lategame, at which point having mutliple Robotics Facilities pumping Shuttle/Reaver is helpful both for defense and for combat.
On October 23 2018 23:15 Alpha-NP- wrote: Thanks. So PvT reavers are good early game and PvZ Reavers are good lategame?
yes, unless your doing a specific early or mid game build entirely structured around the reaver [like opening 1 base and teching really rapidly to a goon/reaver push].
Learn 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra, learn to defend with lurkers, and building your evo chambers in blocking positions for your sunken and spore. Then get hive research crackling get defiler and get 3/3 melee and carapace. Works well on fs. No problem you will beat any d+ Protoss.
Does Protoss ever use Recall and PvZ, and if not, why not? Are there any pro Korean games where recall is used PvZ? I feel like it is underused. Thanks.
On October 26 2018 13:16 Alpha-NP- wrote: Does Protoss ever use Recall and PvZ, and if not, why not? Are there any pro Korean games where recall is used PvZ? I feel like it is underused. Thanks.
Pretty much never. The main reason is that Arbiter costs a lot of gas late in the game when you need it for Templar/Archon. Another major reason is that, if I'm not mistaken, 3 Scourge can 1 shot an Arbiter. Even if it is 4, then that means 50 minerals 150 gas to take out a 100 mineral 350 gas unit, which cost 4 supply and had to wait for a while being useless before it gathered energy to cast recall.
Other contributing reasons are that Zerg Overlords are free detection so cloaking is practically useless vs. Zerg. Yet another is that Zergs have great lategame vision due to army/Overlord spread, meaning that it is much harder to sneak a Recall in. Yet another is that Zergs tend to have multiple bases, meaning no one base is that valuable outside of whatever tech is contained there. Yet another is that Zergs have Nydus canals, which means they can transport their army to the base on which recall happened quite easily. Yet another is that Protoss ball is important to maintain later in the game, and because your recall will take army away from it, your army is susceptible to being crushed or unable to defend against a Zerg counterattack against one of your own bases, which will be much more valuable to you than Zerg's bases are to them. Yet another is that the primary target for Protoss is generally mineral lines/Drones, which can be assaulted with DT/HT drops instead, which are much less of an investment and speed Shuttles are harder to snipe/catch.
There are probably more reasons that I am missing here, but the overall message is that they are straight up bad.
Recall vs. Zerg does work at low levels because Zergs are bad. When a Zerg turtles on 4/5 bases for a long time and I have practically starved them but cannot bust from the front, I sometimes Recall into the high ground base behind the turtled natural to finish them off.
As far as progames, I don't recall any meaningful ones from the KeSPA era although there may have been one or two that I am simply not remembering from maps where it was potentially more viable, like Triathlon. However, I feel like I would have heard of it/it would have stuck out more. Perhaps someone else remembers better. Were there Arbiters in Stork vs. GGPlay? I forget but it was such a long game I don't feel like looking through the VOD.
In general, whenever you have a feeling that something is underused/underrated because you don't see progamers doing it, it's either because it's bad and you should figure out why it is bad to help you understand the game better, or it is something that simply hasn't been fully figured out yet (less likely but I guess possible).
On October 26 2018 13:16 Alpha-NP- wrote: Does Protoss ever use Recall and PvZ, and if not, why not? Are there any pro Korean games where recall is used PvZ? I feel like it is underused. Thanks.
There have been some games in the past where the protoss went arbiters in the past but its pretty exotic. There's a famous game of gosi flying vs effort + Show Spoiler +
where he uses arbiters. He still loses but it was a pretty cool game.
Generally speaking, its not used mainly because the you generally rather use the gas for something else. You need to mass up gas heavy tech units (archons/reavers) against zerg as the game gets later due to defilers substantially reducing the effectiveness of zealots and dragoons, with plague make zealots and dragoons super squishy, and dark swarm rendering dragoons pretty close to useless. Arbiters are a big gas investment at 350 a pop, not to mention the 600 gas for the tribunal and upgrades.
Even if you do get arbiters, recall is generally not the spell that you want to be using. The invis and statis is actually pretty strong against zerg. Zerg doesn't have global detection like terran and overlords can get statised (though even then the zerg can just plague u to see ur units). Statis also forms sort of a wall which can clog up the zerg army and reduce surface area for you. Recalls are much harder to pull off than against terran as zerg has map control as opposed to protoss and also zerg units are way more mobile. Scourge also completely shit on arbiters as they have a faster acceleration and a faster max movement speed so they can just right click a bunch of scourge and your arbiters will die more or less.
On October 26 2018 13:16 Alpha-NP- wrote: Does Protoss ever use Recall and PvZ, and if not, why not? Are there any pro Korean games where recall is used PvZ? I feel like it is underused. Thanks.
gosi flying vs effort
Good call! Totally forgot about this game, it was a great one.
On October 26 2018 13:16 Alpha-NP- wrote: Does Protoss ever use Recall and PvZ, and if not, why not? Are there any pro Korean games where recall is used PvZ? I feel like it is underused. Thanks.
it has been used in one really famous game on andromeda. it has been used also during ASL Larva vs Rain on the 3 player map with assimilator backdor, maybe desert skull is the name.
On October 30 2018 00:00 Alpha-NP- wrote: What’s up with the trend of Zergs going Hydra+Plague+Swarm against mm these days? When is it good? Is it because Ultras take too long too get? Thanks.
I think it's because of the Vessel cloud. Landing hits on Vessel with Scourge is not easy.
I once saw a TvZ where T faked taking his nat by sending SCVs to mine it (fooling the Overlord) and killing the Z with a one-base timing. Does anyone know what game that was?
On October 31 2018 07:29 EsX_Raptor wrote: I once saw a TvZ where T faked taking his nat by sending SCVs to mine it (fooling the Overlord) and killing the Z with a one-base timing. Does anyone know what game that was?
I have a very specific question to ask about a particular game. I have been wondering for a long time why Scan in this TvP, where he went bio against goon/Reavers says he would need Ghosts soon? How are Ghosts good against Reavers in Shuttles? Surely he just would use a cloaked control group to snipe and not use Lockdown right? It was a pretty cool game.
EPT
Gold Rush
