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Steeles21600
52 Posts
also im not sure if 150 apm is enough at all, maybe for toss but id think you would need at least 200 minimum to hold your own at f rank, probably more like 350 if it ever gets to lategame. and if i can't even get to D rank as toss there probably isnt any point in playing any other race, especially after my coach showed me that B rank is more or less free as toss as long as you can make units. | ||
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Highgamer
1444 Posts
On November 09 2018 22:44 Incomplete..ReV wrote: Does mining larvae/eggs have any potential? Mines trigger on both larvae and eggs, however it takes one mine to kill a larvae and three to kill an egg (not sure how many vulture shots it takes, but I imagine many  ).Would that have any practical use in games? I.e., could you time it and try to snipe ultras before they pop? Although, you'd have to gamble on where they'll be built, and it' require a lot of mehacnics, and dropships and such to pull off, rather than just mining the map. So I might have answered my own question, but even so - is there any potential to it? Just saw it a few days ago on some stream where a Terran found a Zerg's 3rd with a vulture and immediatelly started mining the larvae (which would have been morphed into lings/hydras) to buy more time before drones could transer. If you think that the Zerg will morph in time you can place the mines out of trigger-range to hinder the morphed units from chasing the vulture. I don't know about bigger tactical applications like anticipating ultras and mining the larvae. Those any good Zerg should be able to avoid with a well defended natural as soon as he knows there are bigger amounts of vults on the map. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6639 Posts
On November 09 2018 22:44 Incomplete..ReV wrote: Does mining larvae/eggs have any potential? Mines trigger on both larvae and eggs, however it takes one mine to kill a larvae and three to kill an egg (not sure how many vulture shots it takes, but I imagine many ).Would that have any practical use in games? I.e., could you time it and try to snipe ultras before they pop? Although, you'd have to gamble on where they'll be built, and it' require a lot of mehacnics, and dropships and such to pull off, rather than just mining the map. So I might have answered my own question, but even so - is there any potential to it? you don't need to mine the larvae themselves because you can kill them with 2-3 vulture shots. Mining eggs is a different story, I only really do it in a situation where the vultures are trapped in that location and you won't get any other utility out of them anyway, it's definetly worth doing then. On November 09 2018 23:58 Steeles21600 wrote: I have been trying to find advice on TvP and TvT but i always see people just saying to change to toss. I have about 150 apm or so but i have been stuck in F rabk for a couple of months. Is terran just not even a reasonable possibly at this level? I like both toss and Terran well so id be ok with playing toss over Terran but from what i understand you will lose horribly in every MU until you reach semi-pro skill. Don't think it's your apm, 150 should be enough to get out of F rank, you're probably just not using it effectively, if you can share some replays with us we can review them and give you specific advice. | ||
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Highgamer
1444 Posts
On November 10 2018 00:27 Steeles21600 wrote: Well id like to play T. also im not sure if 150 apm is enough at all, maybe for toss but id think you would need at least 200 minimum to hold your own at f rank, probably more like 350 if it ever gets to lategame. and if i can't even get to D rank as toss there probably isnt any point in playing any other race, especially after my coach showed me that B rank is more or less free as toss as long as you can make units. First things first: I welcome your love for the godly race and if you can endure the frustration, stick with it and don't switch to what most would consider the easier race. 150APM tells us that you can click 150 buttons in a minute... you could press anything and everything, it's only a measure of button-clicking. Don't listen to people who say APM is irrelevant though: A certain level of play requires a certain amount of efficient actions, so high level play is inseparable of a certain amount of APM. BUT again: don't listen to people who think a certain number of APM stands for a certain level of skill. You're not alone with your problems in TvP, it's arguably the hardest matchup for Terran for several reasons and you won't start winning 50% of your games until all the necessary components are sufficiently developed (macro, army control, reading your opponent, cheese-defense, push-timing and -direction). If you're not one of the few Terrans who find TvP not the hardest matchup, change your perspective on that matchup: With all odds against you, it's just about overcoming the one thing that you lose the majority of your TvPs to right now - even though you will then lose the game for another reason (that then will be your next goal). One of your problems I don't get: There is tons of advice on Terran on TL... starting with Liquidpedia, going on with the threads linked there or in the sticky-threads in the strategy section. You can then use the search-function (only search the BW-strategy-section) to find threads on specific problems if they exist - otherwise use this here thread. You won't find the perfect, all around guide, that just cannot exist for such a complex game like BW. You have to go step by step, watch pro-gamer-replays or streams attentively and see what they do and try to find out why they do it. Be prepared to keep learing the game for a few years until you feel somewhat comfortable (which doesn't mean it's not fun to play in those years). Having good players look at your replays is an excellent way to identify fundamental flaws that you might not identify by yourself, and then work on one thing at a time. | ||
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Jealous
10256 Posts
On November 09 2018 22:44 Incomplete..ReV wrote: Does mining larvae/eggs have any potential? Mines trigger on both larvae and eggs, however it takes one mine to kill a larvae and three to kill an egg (not sure how many vulture shots it takes, but I imagine many ).Would that have any practical use in games? I.e., could you time it and try to snipe ultras before they pop? Although, you'd have to gamble on where they'll be built, and it' require a lot of mehacnics, and dropships and such to pull off, rather than just mining the map. So I might have answered my own question, but even so - is there any potential to it? I found it to be practical at a lower level in Vulture/Drop builds when you land before Mutalisks are out, but I doubt there are many other situations where that is the best place to use your mines. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
Im just shitty at making judments at the moment, knowing when im strong and all. I try double armory and while the macro is tough and i suck at it the biggest issue is the push. having to have 6-7 control groups and control them all well while macroing is hard. And any time where you go above 3 bases is awful since 8-0 are the coms and double click to go to the cc and make scv. Protoss by comparison needs so few control groups that you can hotkey all the nexus. Also unlike zerg they can effectively use simple f key macro. Big protoss attacks require much less micro to be effective, and even when i play PvZ its realatively manageable even if i lose. Its easy to point out why i lose and work on it, Terran its "do everything better and 2x as fast" also pvp is way way easier then tvt. TvT you take all these bases and its a massive scale battle that goes on for 40 mins every game. All the races are cool but Terran i like the most because they are cool, but protoss in general may fit me more since focused more on micro with small groups of units, used aggressively. Again terran just makes units and the game is decided by one push, very punishing. Also like i said i do like TvZ but hell if you think i can do SK or mech switches, if my 5 rax doesn't win im lost. In general its not just the amount of things i have to juggle but the amount of buttons as well. Zerg macro is harder than terran because all the hotkeys, terran and toss can use f keys likewise terrab armies require more hotkeys, and things like arbiters abd shuttles and hts are decently easy to just click on. | ||
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zerglingling
131 Posts
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
if the terran is meching then range isnt a bad option as it makes the hydras stronger but lurker damage isnt really that good since you want to go into lings and ultras later in the game, better to ask a zerg coach then me tho. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On November 10 2018 00:27 Steeles21600 wrote: you can easily get b rank with 120~ apm with any race, as ive done it with any race. Macro or otherwise, its not that hard. Efficiency and decisions matter, not some arbitrary measurement of clicks.Well id like to play T. also im not sure if 150 apm is enough at all, maybe for toss but id think you would need at least 200 minimum to hold your own at f rank, probably more like 350 if it ever gets to lategame. and if i can't even get to D rank as toss there probably isnt any point in playing any other race, especially after my coach showed me that B rank is more or less free as toss as long as you can make units. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
True, but Terran requires more clicks. Also in general and in vods i see Terran and protoss seem to sit around for the first 6-8 mins of the game doing nothing but pure macro and thats really boring. Tbh zvz is my favorite MU so far because the fast past and constant decision making, but also Im not good enough to play z so I probably dont know anything. outside of XvZ matchups there is a lot of just macro with nothing else going on | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On November 10 2018 04:30 Steeles21600 wrote: @rand0MPrecisi0n Im just shitty at making judments at the moment, knowing when im strong and all. I try double armory and while the macro is tough and i suck at it the biggest issue is the push. having to have 6-7 control groups and control them all well while macroing is hard. And any time where you go above 3 bases is awful since 8-0 are the coms and double click to go to the cc and make scv. So right here there's a lot of wrong stuff already. 2-1 push doesn't require you to macro and micro at the same time because you'll be maxed, or close to it. Macro is also a big word. There's a difference between making workers, teching up, making production facilities and units at the same time (earlier in the game), and only making units (later). After your push is out all you have to do is make units and take a base every so often. You also imply that you're making workers out of four bases, which is insane. Once you have your last production facilities down (9 or so factories), stop making workers. The more the game goes the more money you'll accumulate because any time you're maxed, you can't spend, and also you don't have to be able to afford supply depots, factories, upgrades (outside of weapons and plating ofc), and other minor things. Everything's built so you'll start banking hard, not to mention it's impossible apm-wise. When you establish a new base make five workers at the same time and use the guy that made the CC to make a refinery. After the workers are done, tell them to mine, put two on gas and make a comsat. Hotkey the comsat and then you never have to look at that base ever again. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
Oh, yeah when i say macro i mean just teching upxand stuff, and also i don't hate macro, far from it. I just dont like the idea of doing only macro for extended periods of time. also ob the scvs i wasn't queing them at all abd trying to make them out of 3 bases while doing the double armory abd i never stopped making them. Explains alot, lol. And again i thibk like playing a more aggressive/harass type build is more fun but for one i dont think i have the spare apm and two i don't think its "meta" for T to do attacks outside of timing pushes. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
You should play an aggressive style. It requires less mechanics to pull off aggressive plays than long drawn out macro. The problem with being a macro bot as a beginner is that it is non obvious for a lot of players why they are losing-- which is why you were posting here perplexed that you cant win as terran despite your high apm. Playing an aggressive style allows you to focus a gameplan very strongly in a particular time frame; you win or lose much quicker and as a result will get more games, giving you a lot of repeat experiences. Learning the game sequentially [how do I one base all in, how do I two base all in etc] is often a lot easier than jumping into the deep end. Also, yeah, it is off meta to be aggressive for a terran, so what? Meta is just whats trendy, not whats effective -- and the meta is not the same between all skill levels. Might not be the meta in the ASL/KSL to 2 fact a lot or bbs in the middle of the map but if you play ladder long enough you will discover theres a lot of people doing that. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On November 10 2018 04:30 Steeles21600 wrote: @rand0MPrecisi0n Im just shitty at making judments at the moment, knowing when im strong and all. I try double armory and while the macro is tough and i suck at it the biggest issue is the push. having to have 6-7 control groups and control them all well while macroing is hard. And any time where you go above 3 bases is awful since 8-0 are the coms and double click to go to the cc and make scv. Protoss by comparison needs so few control groups that you can hotkey all the nexus. Also unlike zerg they can effectively use simple f key macro. Big protoss attacks require much less micro to be effective, and even when i play PvZ its realatively manageable even if i lose. Its easy to point out why i lose and work on it, Terran its "do everything better and 2x as fast" also pvp is way way easier then tvt. TvT you take all these bases and its a massive scale battle that goes on for 40 mins every game. All the races are cool but Terran i like the most because they are cool, but protoss in general may fit me more since focused more on micro with small groups of units, used aggressively. Again terran just makes units and the game is decided by one push, very punishing. Also like i said i do like TvZ but hell if you think i can do SK or mech switches, if my 5 rax doesn't win im lost. In general its not just the amount of things i have to juggle but the amount of buttons as well. Zerg macro is harder than terran because all the hotkeys, terran and toss can use f keys likewise terrab armies require more hotkeys, and things like arbiters abd shuttles and hts are decently easy to just click on. If you have more than a few units over 5 full control groups for a maxed TvP push you do not have enough SCVs. I don't know what your exact hotkey setup is but you should not be double clicking to go to your CCs. Use F-keys centered on your 3 CCs and and keep a production building on 6 or 7 and double click that to macro. That should help with your SCV production and also saving workers from reavers/storm. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
I have obviously considered that, 5 rax is already pretty damn aggressive in TvZ so i like that. TvT your build really doesnt matter that much since its gonna become busting tank lines and drops for 40 mins regardless. TvP the only person i see do 2 fac in vods anymore is light, and we all know light is insanely risky and aggressive. Everyone else does double armory or at best FD into double armory i have seen in a couple reps. Also when i say other races are more aggressive than T i mean that the type of aggression T can do outside of timing pushes are usually bad, with the exception of drops. Vulture runbuys get shut down quickly and losing vultures for the push is a no go since terran cant afford to lose units for any reason so you cant really do that very much unless you think you can get away unscathed. TvZ is the exception obviously. TvT again it doesnt really exist since any money not put into making or busting tank lines to get more map control is wasted money. Protoss is able to be agressive in every matchups, at worst in PvZ they play somewhat like terran in TvZ early game, with timing pushes. The difference is toss has extremely effective harass in the corsair. These are also not "non-meta", they often are the meta. Z is a little odd, since usually the goal of their aggression isnt to do damage but to delay and stall so they can build up their macro, which is fine in my book. ZvZ is the obvious exception but i dont think anyone is complaining about ZvZ being slow paced. My issue isnt really "i wanna do damage and win the game right now unga 4 pool" but more that i dont like sitting almost exclusively inside my base for the firs 6-10 mins of the game with little more than just macro happening. Its pretty stale and boring when little to nothing else is going on. | ||
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
If you have around 60 scvs, on the other hand, you'll have five full groups plus ten extra units, give or take. Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q3gHinLLnWLIFbfKi7-sRiI-uLa22akyrPA7mElUisk/edit#gid=0 As far as macro goes, you can do it the way you prefer. Some players use a number, some use an F key. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
you would have to units out of the push, to about 16 tanks 32 vulture. | ||
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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