EPThonestly would be a little fun to see how that plays out at the highest level. Should definitely hurt zerg, but I think it could have fun consequences for pvt, with terran 'wait for 180 supply before moving out' builds becoming significantly weaker, as they could run into 260 rather than 200 supply of protoss units.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 351
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
honestly would be a little fun to see how that plays out at the highest level. Should definitely hurt zerg, but I think it could have fun consequences for pvt, with terran 'wait for 180 supply before moving out' builds becoming significantly weaker, as they could run into 260 rather than 200 supply of protoss units. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 30 2017 23:15 Liquid`Drone wrote: naw if you play a 1v1 team melee and you pick terran with all 4 players, you get 800 supply max. (You don't actually need to have 4 players on each team, it can be a 1v1 on team melee setting.) honestly would be a little fun to see how that plays out at the highest level. Should definitely hurt zerg, but I think it could have fun consequences for pvt, with terran 'wait for 180 supply before moving out' builds becoming significantly weaker, as they could run into 260 rather than 200 supply of protoss units. -.- the dream of protoss | ||
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Murchaldo
18 Posts
I know everyone macros a little differently, but I'm just looking for something to try, because right now it feels impossible. | ||
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Murchaldo
18 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8846 Posts
On October 01 2017 12:32 Murchaldo wrote: Zerg players who browse this forum, when do you find time to macro in ZvT once you get your hive up? In the other matchups, I'm just starting to be able to keep my money down, and in ZvT, I manage to keep it down until defilers come up, and then I blink and have 3000/2000 banked up. Between burrowing/retreating lurkers, keeping Dark Swarms up, watching for drops, making sure all my defilers are max energy, and trying to send hitsquads to Terran expansions, I never feel able to go back to my base and upgrade/expand/build units. It feels like the instant I look away from my units, I lose an incredibly valuable position. I know everyone macros a little differently, but I'm just looking for something to try, because right now it feels impossible. that pretty much tells us everything imo. cant be sure but youre probably juat spending too much time microing your units. if you watch pros play zerg and especially in zvt, youll notice they actually spend way less time looking at their units fight compared to other races. they simply dont have the time so they just rally/attack with the occasional dark swarm/plague/burrow usage and scourge micro for vessel pickoffs. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
 They're not actually that good in the matchup, lurker+defiler+ling is always a better use of your money, but everybody is so busy microing that th ey get spare resources, and there's no time for building more defiler lurker ling. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8846 Posts
you want to group your units together and just move them. if your obs has speed it will fly too far ahead after a while and without it dragoons will outrun it slightly, so it takes a bit of attention especially when clearing mines | ||
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
Second queation, how do you open to one base terran, it can be tricky and how do you scout terran if he blocks ramp with depots and rax?if he goes one base he can go dripship vulture or wraiths how to be sure and how to counter those? | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On October 04 2017 14:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: if you make your obs follow your unit, it will trail at a distance behind while the unit is walking and then catch up when the unit has stopped. you want to group your units together and just move them. if your obs has speed it will fly too far ahead after a while and without it dragoons will outrun it slightly, so it takes a bit of attention especially when clearing mines yeah I got tired of losing my obs to hydras, so I started having them on separate control group instead of with my units. it's worked much better but I still want to optimize. I just tested in game, the detection range is actually quite large. I was able to spot lurkers more than half of the screen away. something exact would be awesome though | ||
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Jealous
10313 Posts
On October 04 2017 14:35 AcMilan91 wrote: Is it possible to win ZvP with tutrtle playstyle, whenever i am too aggressive i lose to protoss... Second queation, how do you open to one base terran, it can be tricky and how do you scout terran if he blocks ramp with depots and rax?if he goes one base he can go dripship vulture or wraiths how to be sure and how to counter those? 4 base turtle ZvP was very popular around, what, 2009-2013ish(?) on maps like FS? "1 gas, 2 gas, 3 gas, 4, camp four gas then ultra whore." You take the near natural as your 3rd, the main as your 4th, make like no units except Lurkers and Scourge (maybe a few early Hydra/Ling to scare your opponent into not being greedy), then just power Drone + Sunk + Spore and transition to 3-3 UltraLingDefiler GG. I am no Zerg expert but I know for sure you can sacrifice an Overlord into his main and not have to ask this question. In general, I like to simcity my natural to prevent Vulture runby, get Hydra with speed, and Lair ASAP off 2 base 3 Hatch. | ||
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
On October 04 2017 15:38 Jealous wrote: 4 base turtle ZvP was very popular around, what, 2009-2013ish(?) on maps like FS? "1 gas, 2 gas, 3 gas, 4, camp four gas then ultra whore." You take the near natural as your 3rd, the main as your 4th, make like no units except Lurkers and Scourge (maybe a few early Hydra/Ling to scare your opponent into not being greedy), then just power Drone + Sunk + Spore and transition to 3-3 UltraLingDefiler GG. I am no Zerg expert but I know for sure you can sacrifice an Overlord into his main and not have to ask this question. In general, I like to simcity my natural to prevent Vulture runby, get Hydra with speed, and Lair ASAP off 2 base 3 Hatch. Thanks what 3-3 stands for? | ||
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Jealous
10313 Posts
+3 attack, +3 armor (for melee units). | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 04 2017 14:35 AcMilan91 wrote: Is it possible to win ZvP with tutrtle playstyle, whenever i am too aggressive i lose to protoss... Second queation, how do you open to one base terran, it can be tricky and how do you scout terran if he blocks ramp with depots and rax?if he goes one base he can go dripship vulture or wraiths how to be sure and how to counter those? I'm going to recommend something weird, which is to go 9/9 drone scout every ZvT. The Chinese player F91 used to do this, and when I was young and naive, I would just do stuff that I saw progamers that I liked do. So I kind of got stuck with the habit of doing this scout, but I'm rarely surprised by what comes out of the Terran base. Whether or not I play correctly to deal with it is a different story. If you decide to go this route, here are some things you may see: Supply Depot, Barracks, Refinery: Usually this means a factory is going to be built. The other way it could go is some kind of early-academy attack to break your front. How can you know which you're going to get? Well, you'll know fairly early, but for both of these, I would recommend making a sunken at the entrance to your natural. This will definitely kill a slow vulture before it can do anything, and can deal with very small numbers of marines (I'd guess like 5 or 6) when they don't have medics. Then make your zerglings like normal and send like two to your opponent's ramp. The rest of your zergs will kill the SCV in your base, because you don't want the Terran to see your tech for free. By "for free", I mean you want to force them to use their comsat sweeps to get information, and if the SCV stays alive, you're just making life easier for your opponent. With your own scouting units, you're going run at the ramp and see how many marines are at the top of the ramp. The Terran player can hide the bulk of his/her marines further back, but getting a little information is better than no information. A wall-off is usually indicative of some factory-tech play, which can include: Vulture / Single Wraith into some kind of bio attack Vulture / 2 port wraith into bio 2 port wraith into bio with no vulture Fast dropship with bio Fast goliath drop (This will happen once like every 5,000 games you play) 1 base vessel / bio push 2 fact speed vultures 1 base / 3 barracks bio 1 base nuke 3 port wraith Vulture into vulture drop with mines and valkyrie and expand (aka "The Fantasy Build") Most of this stuff can be dealt with if you hold off on your Lair for a second, and get your hydra den and hydralisk speed upgrades first. Then you get your lair with the next 100 gas so you can get overlord speed or/and lurkers. You can even go mutalisks after you use your hydralisks to hold off mitigate the damage. Another route you can go is get your Lair, then get metabolic boost to make a lot of speedlings. If there are a lot of mines on the map, you can explode them by sending a couple of zerglings forward through the mines, then sending the bulk of your zerglings to attack. This is a more aggressive, less economic approach, but if you're successful, you can take advantage of the Terran having very little units because they spent most of their money to tech upwards. Also, if you're dealing with some weird early bio/tank push, you can kill off many weird pushes like that with zerglings. Speed hydras are more costly, but can deal with pretty much all the same stuff that zerglings can deal with, but can also shoot down wraiths and dropships. Depot / Barracks: This means it's standard opening play from them and you can do whatever you want. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 04 2017 15:58 jrkirby wrote: does burrowing disrupt an already launched scarab's targeting (when there's no detection)? no, unfortunately, it does not. If the scarab is launched, and then you burrow, your stuff is still going to blow up. | ||
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
On October 04 2017 16:15 ninazerg wrote: I'm going to recommend something weird, which is to go 9/9 drone scout every ZvT. The Chinese player F91 used to do this, and when I was young and naive, I would just do stuff that I saw progamers that I liked do. So I kind of got stuck with the habit of doing this scout, but I'm rarely surprised by what comes out of the Terran base. Whether or not I play correctly to deal with it is a different story. If you decide to go this route, here are some things you may see: Supply Depot, Barracks, Refinery: Usually this means a factory is going to be built. The other way it could go is some kind of early-academy attack to break your front. How can you know which you're going to get? Well, you'll know fairly early, but for both of these, I would recommend making a sunken at the entrance to your natural. This will definitely kill a slow vulture before it can do anything, and can deal with very small numbers of marines (I'd guess like 5 or 6) when they don't have medics. Then make your zerglings like normal and send like two to your opponent's ramp. The rest of your zergs will kill the SCV in your base, because you don't want the Terran to see your tech for free. By "for free", I mean you want to force them to use their comsat sweeps to get information, and if the SCV stays alive, you're just making life easier for your opponent. With your own scouting units, you're going run at the ramp and see how many marines are at the top of the ramp. The Terran player can hide the bulk of his/her marines further back, but getting a little information is better than no information. A wall-off is usually indicative of some factory-tech play, which can include: Vulture / Single Wraith into some kind of bio attack Vulture / 2 port wraith into bio 2 port wraith into bio with no vulture Fast dropship with bio Fast goliath drop (This will happen once like every 5,000 games you play) 1 base vessel / bio push 2 fact speed vultures 1 base / 3 barracks bio 1 base nuke 3 port wraith Vulture into vulture drop with mines and valkyrie and expand (aka "The Fantasy Build") Most of this stuff can be dealt with if you hold off on your Lair for a second, and get your hydra den and hydralisk speed upgrades first. Then you get your lair with the next 100 gas so you can get overlord speed or/and lurkers. You can even go mutalisks after you use your hydralisks to hold off mitigate the damage. Another route you can go is get your Lair, then get metabolic boost to make a lot of speedlings. If there are a lot of mines on the map, you can explode them by sending a couple of zerglings forward through the mines, then sending the bulk of your zerglings to attack. This is a more aggressive, less economic approach, but if you're successful, you can take advantage of the Terran having very little units because they spent most of their money to tech upwards. Also, if you're dealing with some weird early bio/tank push, you can kill off many weird pushes like that with zerglings. Speed hydras are more costly, but can deal with pretty much all the same stuff that zerglings can deal with, but can also shoot down wraiths and dropships. Depot / Barracks: This means it's standard opening play from them and you can do whatever you want. Thank you so much, its really tricky that one base | ||
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
So hello everyone, after one month playing online broodwar i am better ~1600mmr...but i want to be better, first of all, yes i watched Jaedong and Effort translated videos, day 9 etc...million of fpvods, dual fpvods... I am getting better at 3 hatch muta vs terran, 5 hatch hydra against protoss..I think i am ready for some more advanced strategies. My macros are f2 main baee f3 second f4 3rd 1,2,3,4 for units 5-8 hatcheries, i dont know why i dont use 9 and 0, non habbit So i have problem with next things One base terran? I know its tricky, when i scout with drone i see early gas, no expand, i expect wraiths or vulture drop or early mech... But i always lose somehow because i can scout with drone but later he just block ramp with 2 depos and rax....frustrated, next thing 3 hatch muta vs fast expand terran who goes 5 rax m&m ans vessels, i go 3 hatch muta everything seems cool until i get 3rd base and defilers, i know this must be my moment when i get defilers but i keep.floating 2-3k minerals and gas somehow, speedlings and defilers+lurkers, probably lack of macro. And the last one is ZvP omg smh so though matchup for me sometimes, when i see FE i usually go spire into 5 hatch hydra , but i think i am too agressive as he always has like 150 supply against mine 60 and always mass goonz zeals ht and gg... Any tips would be helpful from some high level players. | ||
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Jealous
10313 Posts
On October 05 2017 19:28 AcMilan91 wrote: One last help and question and i will go back to training and practice So hello everyone, after one month playing online broodwar i am better ~1600mmr...but i want to be better, first of all, yes i watched Jaedong and Effort translated videos, day 9 etc...million of fpvods, dual fpvods... I am getting better at 3 hatch muta vs terran, 5 hatch hydra against protoss..I think i am ready for some more advanced strategies. My macros are f2 main baee f3 second f4 3rd 1,2,3,4 for units 5-8 hatcheries, i dont know why i dont use 9 and 0, non habbit So i have problem with next things One base terran? I know its tricky, when i scout with drone i see early gas, no expand, i expect wraiths or vulture drop or early mech... But i always lose somehow because i can scout with drone but later he just block ramp with 2 depos and rax....frustrated, next thing 3 hatch muta vs fast expand terran who goes 5 rax m&m ans vessels, i go 3 hatch muta everything seems cool until i get 3rd base and defilers, i know this must be my moment when i get defilers but i keep.floating 2-3k minerals and gas somehow, speedlings and defilers+lurkers, probably lack of macro. And the last one is ZvP omg smh so though matchup for me sometimes, when i see FE i usually go spire into 5 hatch hydra , but i think i am too agressive as he always has like 150 supply against mine 60 and always mass goonz zeals ht and gg... Any tips would be helpful from some high level players. For the ZvT question, just sack an Overlord and send it in to find out what's going... 100 minerals, 1 larva, but you have the opportunity to react intelligently and have scouting information. As I told you above. For ZvP the popular trend right now seems to be 6 Hatch Hydra, no Spire until later. This way you can have a big mass and exert some map control and prevent Toss from taking his 3rd as easily. You just need spore/keep Hydra by Overlords to defend them. There are even some builds which do 5 Hatch before making any Extractors, which are very eco/mass-heavy. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
don't delay your lair/speed versus 1 base play or you'll have a very hard time versus 1base bio or tank rush i'm not sure about the exact timings, but if you're 3hat you want to delay your first gas a bit, to like 15~17ish. get 1 sunk early to deny vultures (around 17~18 supply). go lair -> den -> ling speed and get a few (2~3) hydras when den pops if you can't get scouting info. if it's 2port, vults, or 2fac get more hydras and hydra speed. versus bio play try to get lings out on the map so you can cut off reinforcements or backstab when T moves out. | ||
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