On October 06 2017 03:38 Dead9 wrote: T will deny your overlord if they know what they're doing. leave your overlord over the cliff so you can see when they move out
don't delay your lair/speed versus 1 base play or you'll have a very hard time versus 1base bio or tank rush
i'm not sure about the exact timings, but if you're 3hat you want to delay your first gas a bit, to like 15~17ish. get 1 sunk early to deny vultures (around 17~18 supply). go lair -> den -> ling speed and get a few (2~3) hydras when den pops if you can't get scouting info. if it's 2port, vults, or 2fac get more hydras and hydra speed. versus bio play try to get lings out on the map so you can cut off reinforcements or backstab when T moves out.
On October 06 2017 03:38 Dead9 wrote: T will deny your overlord if they know what they're doing. leave your overlord over the cliff so you can see when they move out
don't delay your lair/speed versus 1 base play or you'll have a very hard time versus 1base bio or tank rush
i'm not sure about the exact timings, but if you're 3hat you want to delay your first gas a bit, to like 15~17ish. get 1 sunk early to deny vultures (around 17~18 supply). go lair -> den -> ling speed and get a few (2~3) hydras when den pops if you can't get scouting info. if it's 2port, vults, or 2fac get more hydras and hydra speed. versus bio play try to get lings out on the map so you can cut off reinforcements or backstab when T moves out.
They need their Marines at their choke and you should be able to get in and ascertain at least a tech structure or something. If they send all their Marines to deny your Overlord, you just run in with Zerglings. It's really that simple.
whoops i didn't mean to sound so aggressive kind of map-dependent but as long as u tuck ur tech toward the inside of the base it's not difficult to deny overlord scouting t won't always be careful but it's not really something u can rely on
1. In PvT, bisu builds like 15 gates. But in PvZ, are we supposed to have that many as well?
2. As toss, how many obs do you build? Do you make them as required? Because in PvT and PvZ, I litter the entire map with obs and have multiple in my main group since I have a phobia of losing them. I also park obs in each natural and base. But I feel like this is not wise and a noob move. Could you give me some advice?
On October 06 2017 13:22 Golgotha wrote: 1. In PvT, bisu builds like 15 gates. But in PvZ, are we supposed to have that many as well?
2. As toss, how many obs do you build? Do you make them as required? Because in PvT and PvZ, I litter the entire map with obs and have multiple in my main group since I have a phobia of losing them. I also park obs in each natural and base. But I feel like this is not wise and a noob move. Could you give me some advice?
In general you don't want that many Gateways in PvZ because your goal should be army retention. In PvT it's normal to go up to 20+ Gates between two mains, but in PvZ it's usually no more than 12 from what I've seen.
Having an obs at each natural/main is definitely excessive as you can usually just put a Cannon or two later in the game in most MUs/games. Obs should be made such that they don't hamper your mobility/map control and don't delay more important tech (like Arbs in PvT). I do have a lot of respect for the Observer-heavy playstyles (I think JangBi was known for this at one point? Stork as well if I'm not mistaken) but I personally find that some people are overly wasteful with how many they get and how they use them. Early on in PvT I only make about 3 - one to get into their main, one at their 3rd or between their main and 3rd to see if they make/float CC, and one with my army outside their natural. Obviously it helps to have more but as I said before, you don't want it to cut into your tech timing or your Templar production in PvZ, etc. In PvZ it depends on whether they went Lurker or contain or whatnot, obviously. In PvP I only maintain a constant population of a handful. In general I don't see any reason to have more than 6-8 Observers out on the map in a regular game. Try using patrol on your Observers in key areas, or other units where detection isn't a mandate (I patrol a DT/Zealot between the 3rds and mains on FS to see if expansions come up, for example). I've seen some Protoss opt for leaving a Probe idle in the attack routes of PvP army balls instead of losing obs every time the enemy decides to walk past it with their own obs.
I do think someone more skilled than I could definitely add more to this though, or offer a differing opinion, as this is something I've pondered myself and do sometimes find myself lacking in obs.
hey jealous, thanks a lot. my game improved because I didn't queue up obs. thank you. it's good to get a reaver and drops, not just obs.
by the way, in PvT, how many dropships full of zealots should we get? is 2 more than enough? or is more the better? how about 4 dropships full of zealots? zealots in dropships are so effective, I thought why not have a lot more?
On October 06 2017 17:32 Golgotha wrote: hey jealous, thanks a lot. my game improved because I didn't queue up obs. thank you. it's good to get a reaver and drops, not just obs.
by the way, in PvT, how many dropships full of zealots should we get? is 2 more than enough? or is more the better? how about 4 dropships full of zealots? zealots in dropships are so effective, I thought why not have a lot more?
Well, in a normal PvT you should have 0 dropships. You can have some in 1 game every 10.000. You know why? Because protoss does not have dropship, they have shuttles :p
Generally you have 1. It is situational to get 2, on some semi island maps it is normal to have 2. But more is really not likely.
You load shuttles with zealots in early and mid-game but later on you prefer to put templars in.
On October 06 2017 17:32 Golgotha wrote: hey jealous, thanks a lot. my game improved because I didn't queue up obs. thank you. it's good to get a reaver and drops, not just obs.
by the way, in PvT, how many dropships full of zealots should we get? is 2 more than enough? or is more the better? how about 4 dropships full of zealots? zealots in dropships are so effective, I thought why not have a lot more?
Well, in a normal PvT you should have 0 dropships. You can have some in 1 game every 10.000. You know why? Because protoss does not have dropship, they have shuttles :p
Generally you have 1. It is situational to get 2, on some semi island maps it is normal to have 2. But more is really not likely.
You load shuttles with zealots in early and mid-game but later on you prefer to put templars in.
Agree with this. I don't think I've ever used more than 2 for busting out of a position because there is just too much to do and you still need some Zealots to drag mines from the front.
To add to what Bek said, I like to load in Shuttle Zealot Templar Templar Templar for PvT engagements because the first Zealot might get auto targeted by some back Tanks/Vults in a big fight. Sometimes you just get everything sniped by Vultures if he has too many on hold position in your flight path so then it is better to drop by your army a la JangBi vs. NaDa.
About your Shuttle/Reaver statement @Golgotha it depends on the match-up and what build you/your opponent is going but it's pretty standard to go Shuttle Obs Reaver in PvT and PvP, if you opted for Reaver opening of course.
On October 07 2017 05:04 jrkirby wrote: How many hatches do you need spend all your minerals producing only zerglings on 2 fully saturated bases?
I mean, what do you consider fully saturated? Are you including Overlords into this? What about gas for upgrades? Are you trying to transition out of this, or are you just going to go that all-in that consistently that you need to know this information this precisely?
I searched and couldn't find this anywhere on the internet, teamliquid or otherwise. My question is: whenever you see people micro wraiths (or mutas I think? I don't watch as much zerg), they are always appear to be pressing stop (or maybe stop is just happening somehow?) when they are doing the typical move backwards, then attack forwards. What is this for? Here is a small example of what I'm talking about:
As flash is hitting this barracks with his wraiths you can see the stop button going over and over. I see this every time people micro wraiths! Any idea?
Question about engaging in PvT. Unless you can completely catch the terran with their pants down or if you have superior forces, you should never engage right? You should delay as long as you can and attack elsewhere? Try to split him up and defend multiple locations? I just won a game where I knew I was ahead but I never engaged his main army with a gigantic push. Instead I fought battles wherever I could and made him dearly pay for each nexus I had. This whittled him down so that I could arbiter recall him with ease. I feel like I made the right choice, instead of going all in and risking a huge engage on tanks...which is usually how I lose most of my PvTs.
i just took a massive amount of bases and made him split up his army trying to chase down each one.
When koreans select dronew to count, how exactly they do that, they count so fast ? How much drones i must have rtc? One group or more? I know its one per patch plus 3-4 but thry count so fast just box them and thats it
On October 07 2017 18:26 Golgotha wrote: Question about engaging in PvT. Unless you can completely catch the terran with their pants down or if you have superior forces, you should never engage right? You should delay as long as you can and attack elsewhere? Try to split him up and defend multiple locations? I just won a game where I knew I was ahead but I never engaged his main army with a gigantic push. Instead I fought battles wherever I could and made him dearly pay for each nexus I had. This whittled him down so that I could arbiter recall him with ease. I feel like I made the right choice, instead of going all in and risking a huge engage on tanks...which is usually how I lose most of my PvTs.
i just took a massive amount of bases and made him split up his army trying to chase down each one.
yes I have same feeling about PvT sometimes I snap and go like fuck I can take on this 1A2A3A4A5A6A then lose advantage or the game lol I think it's exactly like you said, in most cases it's best for p never to attack T at all, only delay/attack somewhere else, only when they are split or not set up is it really worth attacking a terran's units at all
although this is different when the T is more dary and aggressive with smaller armies ealier on for example, thats why I like playing vs such aggressive Ts makes good games imo, its not easy and rather more dynamic
i dont understand when i should attack protoss with zerg, his army is always stronger always more numberes goons and zealots always the fucking same...always more population...i dont understand when to attack or should i turtle, this is match i am talking about, always the same http://bwreplays.com/mmfhr
On October 07 2017 18:26 Golgotha wrote: Question about engaging in PvT. Unless you can completely catch the terran with their pants down or if you have superior forces, you should never engage right? You should delay as long as you can and attack elsewhere? Try to split him up and defend multiple locations? I just won a game where I knew I was ahead but I never engaged his main army with a gigantic push. Instead I fought battles wherever I could and made him dearly pay for each nexus I had. This whittled him down so that I could arbiter recall him with ease. I feel like I made the right choice, instead of going all in and risking a huge engage on tanks...which is usually how I lose most of my PvTs.
i just took a massive amount of bases and made him split up his army trying to chase down each one.
depends on the map, but generally you dont want to create a rule saying you should never attack when terrans' army or you should try and split the army etc. obviously you dont want to yolo into an army thats already sieged and mines are laid, but assuming you can get a decent engage where terran is forced to siege reasonably late and mines arent already scattered everywhere, its better to force trades. dodging the army and hoping to split the army could work depending on how much control of the map you have and what the map is, but generally with vulture mines its easier for terran to slow you down or block paths which the army cannot reach easily, meaning hes actually splitting your army up instead or forcing you to react to his movement. theres also the problem that mines give him free vision anyway and so he can actually just chase your army around if he wants to.
if hes doing the above with a 200/200 army and youre also maxed out but just banking money, then its not a good scenario for you. ideally you are always trading units and keeping his army population lower so that you make use of your bases and can defend all-ins even if you recall a portion of your army somewhere.
yes trade units but not engage, its like you trade units against T trying to make you engage, engage only if you think you have won the game you have a good army advantage or something (or its a split up force you're attacking with a bigger force etc) I mean there are exceptions and stuff like what if you have arbiters and there are no vessels or shuttles and no goliaths or whatever but most of the time I think engaging T head on is just bad, it's something you'd do because you choose not to let him destroy a base that he is attacking or smtg imo, you just need to have a good reason for it because it's just very cost efficient for T to get engagement of ~equivalent armies (in cost and supply, even if you have a little more as you need)
if I rephrase I'd say if T doesn't make blattant mistakes (and if you don't have already a sizeable advantage), you'd have to provoke him to make some before you can actually engage efficiently in a way that gives you an advantage rather than a disadvantage, that you can do by retreating and just trading few stuff at the edge, splitting avoiding etc
There is one different approach that I know off, less about engaging but about timing. You abuse the fact that Protoss can max earlier than Terran if Protoss focusses on raw unit production.
Sometimes I face Protosses on ladder, mostly koreans, who delay the arbiter tech and rather go for really fast 3-4 bases - and just a shitton of gates. They rely on their macro, and have a maxed or almost maxed army early, dunno, maybe 11-12 minutes. They will then literally just attack any not-perfectly-defended position, maybe with a shuttle or two. This hits just before 3-base-Terrans are ready (aka before they have all their factories up and build 2-3 rounds of vultures and upgrades finished), and cripples Terran's army severely. Meanwhile, the Protss pours all of their additional income into bases/gates/tech and uses the 2-3 minutes he gained to rebuild the army, now + arbiters.
Should Terran be really well prepared - well you can grow bigger and 'soft-contain' him with your army that is ready to be traded at any moment.
If you go for the usual faster tech/bases, you sometimes just create the timing that Terran wants around 13-14 minutes. You're not there when he moves out and he can cross parts of the map for free.
EPT
