EPTwhat's scary is if you can't attack a well defended T, and he maxes out and you don't have arbiters, hard times, but it's possible also to just get arbiters a bit later before max for example
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
what's scary is if you can't attack a well defended T, and he maxes out and you don't have arbiters, hard times, but it's possible also to just get arbiters a bit later before max for example | ||
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
On October 08 2017 02:06 AcMilan91 wrote: i dont understand when i should attack protoss with zerg, his army is always stronger always more numberes goons and zealots always the fucking same...always more population...i dont understand when to attack or should i turtle, this is match i am talking about, always the same http://bwreplays.com/mmfhr Turtle up, focus on defense, get a 4th and a fast hive and don't even think of attacking before you have cracklings and defilers (unless you see protoss going for an extremely fast 4th). This is kind of lame and not guaranteed to work, but in my experience it works better at low levels than the hydra/muta aggresion style that you see progamers do all the time. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On October 07 2017 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote: yes I have same feeling about PvT sometimes I snap and go like fuck I can take on this 1A2A3A4A5A6A then lose advantage or the game lol I think it's exactly like you said, in most cases it's best for p never to attack T at all, only delay/attack somewhere else, only when they are split or not set up is it really worth attacking a terran's units at all although this is different when the T is more dary and aggressive with smaller armies ealier on for example, thats why I like playing vs such aggressive Ts makes good games imo, its not easy and rather more dynamic lmao that's exactly me. I see terran moving and his tanks are unsieged. so think "I can't lose this! his tanks are not sieged!" 1a2a3a4a yolo! and bam my zealots and goons melt because I impulsively attacked. it's funny because I only do this when I see a huge push. but when I see small groups of units moving around, I just leave them alone. my stupid thinking is that I should wait until they are all together before I kill them all with one push... Thanks for all the tips and suggestions, really helps. 1. Question about Terran bio stim control. Do you guys have medics and marines together in one control group? Then how do you stim? because you can't stim if medics are in the selection. you have to either ctrl click the portrait of the marine to select all the marines or ctrl click on the actual marine. is this what pros do or do they actually have medics on different control groups? 2. In PvZ, when do you cut corsairs? I've been making them until I have 12, but now I want to learn when I should cut sair production in favor of something else. I think constant sair production delays my storm and other tech? And 12...isn't that overkill? then again making ovies pop faster isn't a bad thing. | ||
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Jealous
10232 Posts
On October 08 2017 11:28 Golgotha wrote: lmao that's exactly me. I see terran moving and his tanks are unsieged. so think "I can't lose this! his tanks are not sieged!" 1a2a3a4a yolo! and bam my zealots and goons melt because I impulsively attacked. it's funny because I only do this when I see a huge push. but when I see small groups of units moving around, I just leave them alone. my stupid thinking is that I should wait until they are all together before I kill them all with one push... Thanks for all the tips and suggestions, really helps. 1. Question about Terran bio stim control. Do you guys have medics and marines together in one control group? Then how do you stim? because you can't stim if medics are in the selection. you have to either ctrl click the portrait of the marine to select all the marines or ctrl click on the actual marine. is this what pros do or do they actually have medics on different control groups? 2. In PvZ, when do you cut corsairs? I've been making them until I have 12, but now I want to learn when I should cut sair production in favor of something else. I think constant sair production delays my storm and other tech? And 12...isn't that overkill? then again making ovies pop faster isn't a bad thing. 1. I don't think most players have them in the same group, but to solve your problem of having them in the same group you could do ctrl+click on the wifreframe and then stim to stim only Marines in a mixed group. 2. If I see no Spire, no second Extractor, and/or a 4th/5th Hatchery, I stop at 1-3 until further notice. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
thank you. that's very helpful. hey jealous and the rest of you guys, I have a question about optimizing practice. Is it better to play with people at or below your skill level vs. people who are clearly ahead of you in terms of micro and macro? of course you shouldn't play with people who you outrank by leagues (you won't get better playing against someone who has no idea what they are doing), but I honestly believe playing against players who are slightly weaker or dead even is superior to getting outplayed in every aspect of the game. I say this because I find that the games where my opponent and I are evenly matched, usually end up with both of us reaching the late game on a level playing field. This has helped me tremendously in learning late game macro and micro. If I play with someone who is kicking my ass left and right, I can't really practice my arbiter, defiler, and mech switch play. Also, when two opponents are evenly matched, it tends to lead to macro games. Practicing macro and keeping your money down while controlling huge armies is what helps us get better at multitasking and managing the chaos that is BW. What do you guys think? Or should I stop being a pussy and just keep getting my ass kicked? Not sure what is more efficient. | ||
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Jealous
10232 Posts
On October 08 2017 14:03 Golgotha wrote: 2. If I see no Spire, no second Extractor, and/or a 4th/5th Hatchery, I stop at 1-3 until further notice. thank you. that's very helpful. hey jealous and the rest of you guys, I have a question about optimizing practice. Is it better to play with people at or below your skill level vs. people who are clearly ahead of you in terms of micro and macro? of course you shouldn't play with people who you outrank by leagues (you won't get better playing against someone who has no idea what they are doing), but I honestly believe playing against players who are slightly weaker or dead even is superior to getting outplayed in every aspect of the game. I say this because I find that the games where my opponent and I are evenly matched, usually end up with both of us reaching the late game on a level playing field. This has helped me tremendously in learning late game macro and micro. If I play with someone who is kicking my ass left and right, I can't really practice my arbiter, defiler, and mech switch play. Also, when two opponents are evenly matched, it tends to lead to macro games. Practicing macro and keeping your money down while controlling huge armies is what helps us get better at multitasking and managing the chaos that is BW. What do you guys think? Or should I stop being a pussy and just keep getting my ass kicked? Not sure what is more efficient. I just want to point out that in the above scenario I outlined, some Protoss will continue Corsair production and do well (Bisu in the past). I just don't have the multitask for that style of play, I think. I just prefer to mass Gateway and gain map control when I see Zerg going mass Hydra. About practice, I feel like playing against better people is always the best practice. Reason is very simple. Just because you got to the late game and get to practice your late game play, doesn't mean you've earned it. If you got there just because your opponent isn't very strong, then you didn't deserve to make it there. If you get crushed before lategame by your opponent, it means your early/midgame is weak, and playing vs. worse people will never improve it because you have no motivation there to do so. If you can make many mistakes/be late against lower players and still make it to late game, when will you be forced to learn how to early/mid properly? Probably never. Hence you need to play vs. strong players who will expose weaknesses in your BO and your play. Let's make an exaggerated example: say you are Terran and you only play with low level Zergs, their 3 Hatch Mutalisk always hits 1 minute late, so you structure your play around that. When you face against a competent Zerg, and their 3 Hatch Muta hits on time, you die instantly because you made yourself used to holding late Muta. All of your timings are based on scrub play, and thus you can get away with being a scrub yourself. If you want to truly learn, you have to face against proper Muta timing otherwise you're just masturbating in-game and having fun. This is of course not a terrible thing, as this is a game, but in terms of improvement it just breeds bad habits and false ego (imo). | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
I remember a Quake player, I think Cooller, he said that playing even against noobs will teach you something. I think in Starcraft it's a little true too, especially if you try to make specific answers to whatever weird stuff or mistake the lower skill player does. Even playing 3v3 you can learn lot of stuff which you might reuse in 1v1. Better players may end the game abruptly, but still teach you a lot. It seems the most fun is when you play a player of equal skill, it seems to teach the most. Idk but I would say, if I play 50+% of my games against similar skilled players, that feels the best, playing against better regularly seems important, and playing against lower skilled is interesting (at least because you have room to create answers to odd scenarios, or you can test how vulnerable your opponent can be when they don't reply on point to your sharpest stuff or smtg). On October 08 2017 11:28 Golgotha wrote: 2. In PvZ, when do you cut corsairs? I've been making them until I have 12, but now I want to learn when I should cut sair production in favor of something else. I think constant sair production delays my storm and other tech? And 12...isn't that overkill? then again making ovies pop faster isn't a bad thing. for sure it delays tech and stuff, as much as they cost! sometimes I make only 1 corsair, it really depends on what you want to do but I've seen pros also make only 1/few corsairs sometimes, if you want to try just think of corsairs as a scout + antimuta in a pvz game and have another tech target which you might pick or redefine after your first scouting with corsair, you can invest in early bunch of goons or dt or templar or gates or etc with the money not spent on corsairs. When you make only 1-few corsairs, it's a small threat for the Z, he may not need to spend much to reply to it. I never make 12 corsairs but I guess sometimes they can be deadly to the Z so if you manage to get many over and muta kills.. I guess I would try to anticipate that the Z is not going to make many hydras before making more than a few corsairs. I'm sure there are games and situations when it's great to make 12 corsairs, just probably not all games. | ||
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
On October 08 2017 14:03 Golgotha wrote: hey jealous and the rest of you guys, I have a question about optimizing practice. Is it better to play with people at or below your skill level vs. people who are clearly ahead of you in terms of micro and macro? of course you shouldn't play with people who you outrank by leagues (you won't get better playing against someone who has no idea what they are doing), but I honestly believe playing against players who are slightly weaker or dead even is superior to getting outplayed in every aspect of the game. I say this because I find that the games where my opponent and I are evenly matched, usually end up with both of us reaching the late game on a level playing field. This has helped me tremendously in learning late game macro and micro. If I play with someone who is kicking my ass left and right, I can't really practice my arbiter, defiler, and mech switch play. Also, when two opponents are evenly matched, it tends to lead to macro games. Practicing macro and keeping your money down while controlling huge armies is what helps us get better at multitasking and managing the chaos that is BW. What do you guys think? Or should I stop being a pussy and just keep getting my ass kicked? Not sure what is more efficient. Day[9] made a podcast about it: "Why You Should Play Against Worse Players explains why it sometimes isn't best to be playing good players all the time. The audio describes how playing worse players helps your mind become more comfortable and creative, allowing you to take your game to the next level. Length 16:53" He argues that it's critical for your improvement to play against 'worse' players than you from time to time. I guess the main reason is that you learn how things are meant to fall into place, your brain can live through the whole experience - whereas against good people you'll get beaten down early constantly. The experience of playing a full game will help you when you face a better player because you know how it should look/feel, focus on what's important in the long run. edit: Here's the thread to day[9]'s Dailies, at the bottom of the OP is a link to all the podcasts as well: Day[9] Dailies and more | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
1. Question about Terran bio stim control. Do you guys have medics and marines together in one control group? Then how do you stim? because you can't stim if medics are in the selection. you have to either ctrl click the portrait of the marine to select all the marines or ctrl click on the actual marine. is this what pros do or do they actually have medics on different control groups? 123 marines 4 medics 5 vessels. May want to consider having medics and vessels in the same group too, because vessels themselves can't a-move, but medics can. | ||
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
No matter what hotkey-setup you use, you want to keep the medics in a separate control group for as long as you can whenever you have to be able to stim instantly, like during muta-phase. But if you have to take even more marines with you at some point, just fill the medic-group up and, as you wrote, stim that group via ctrl+click. A different story is something like a small pack of M&M roaming around the map when everything else is hotkeyed, or an unloaded drop that survived. In mid/lategame you probably won't have 2 ctrl-groups for this pack, so just put them in one group and ctrl+click to stim. Or if you are reinforcing or just have to get stuff somewhere quickly. Sometimes you shouldn't waste time making separate ctrl-groups in these situations. Then just box, set hotkey, and go. Have a setup that separates medics from rines generally, but be flexible if need be. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
playing against better players teaches you how to play the game at its fundamentals, but you are limited in the ways you can win a game because the opponent is better and you hold a level of respect for them. a big factor in the best players being able to carry games consistently is actually them just showing no respect to theit opponents and thinking they can create an outplay in any scenario. you only develop that by stomping people repeatedly. its why in games like dota and lol solo queue and pro games are completely different and why some solo queue gods cant make the transition, or why some pros dont dominate solo queue games. they fall into the habit of either not respecting enough or showing too much respect to their opponents | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
 I don't think anyone would like it if they lost 90% of their games. | ||
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Jealous
10232 Posts
On October 09 2017 13:40 Golgotha wrote: I appreciate the wide range of answers I got. I can definitely see the pros and cons of both sides. I think if you stay at a point where you can win at least half your games, it creates a good balance in terms of difficulty. Jealous is definitely right about "earning" the right to get to a certain point in the game. If you're always playing with people who don't expose your weaknesses, you will never know if you are actually playing correctly (it will hide bad habits and mistakes). and like others say, if you are always getting curb-stomped, it can make for a shitty time where you everything you did seems to be a fuck up I don't think anyone would like it if they lost 90% of their games. Of course not. But you asked about practice, which I consider separate from casual games. Get your wins in pub games on East/West if you want an ego stroking, practice with good players to improve yourself in between, then test skills on ladder/in tour, etc. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
Edit: My experiments indicate they have the same hitbox. I attacked a defiler with a zergling, then burrowed it and attacked it with a zergling again. The zergling did not move forward to attack after it burrowed. I then burrowed a second zergling in the same spot (I'm pretty sure it was exact, but it may have been off by a pixel or two). The first zergling needed to move forward to attack the burrowed one. | ||
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
On October 10 2017 15:31 AcMilan91 wrote: why pros put evoultion chamber before spawning pool ? B into V and immideatly cancels and start building pool? To test how the building will fit in the location they plan it to build. Evolution chamber and pool have the same size (not really maybe, but in hexes they occupy in the build-grid), but an evolution chamber costs only 75, so you can test where the pool will fit even before you have 200 minerals. Terrans do the same with engineering bay (125 minerals) to test for barracks (150) or factory (200+100) or CC (400). | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On October 10 2017 11:57 Zealgoon wrote: Is there a way to determine mining efficiency of individual mineral patches on a given map other than spending 4 hours testing one by one? There is make the same amount of probes/scvs/drones of the minerals path you have. Send all of them to mine from a single path. Don't let them return to nexus, instead press stop and wait for all to have minerals. Send them to mine again. Select all and press return cargo. Observe. In a few laps you will see the difference. For more precise testing just look at how much minerals are missing from paths after a longer time. | ||
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