On October 11 2017 13:37 evilfatsh1t wrote: if you build bay first you MUST get shuttle reaver combo + speed asap and pressure the opponent, either with 1 reaver or by waiting for 2 if you know he hasnt gone dt.
I disagree. Reaver-expand does not get either of those things (Shuttle or Speed), yet can open Support Bay-first. It depends on what you know of the opponent's build and what you are trying to achieve.
On October 11 2017 16:09 ajmbek wrote: 1. Obzes are not the way to go do defend reaver drops. Use pilons, put them in a ring around the base, eventualy even 1 or 2 outside the base.
Agree/Disagree. In general, yes, Pylons are much better for spotting Shuttle. The advice you give about Pylon at 3rd (I put it in the other adjacent 3rd on FS as well), and the ring in your main, are of course correct. However, there are two spaces where you need Observer to have a decent chance of spotting Shuttle: behind your natural and to the side of the 3rd minerals (on FS). Of course you do not need these until you take either of those bases, so in effect you are correct - at the very start, you do not need Observers to spot Reaver harass. However, it is helpful to get one around the time you get your Nexus in Reaver-expand because you do need a concrete scout to know if you have to prepare for frontal attack, drop, or something else.
is reaver expand a thing? i dont watch sc nowadays but reaver expand was never a thing when i still played/watched why open with support bay only to relinquish the early reaver timing and sit back and def? might as well go nexus first and then follow up with reaver, it would still allow you to defend any other build that didnt also rush support bay. reaver expand would also just straight up lose to dt as you cant pressure without the shuttle nor do you have observers fast enough and i would imagine if the opponent also rushed support bay with shuttle and speed you will get outmicroed in engage or have to deal with harass with no retaliation of your own because you dont have speed
also when i say reaver expand im assuming its literally as you said, you get support bay first but dont get the shuttle or speed upgrade. if you are talking about a scenario where you expand after you get both of those things, then that is a standard reaver rush opening
The reaver expand is a good and viable BO. I can't imagine you beeing really good while ignoring this opening. It allows you to hold reaver pressure while expanding faster cause you cut the shuttle.
I do not know why you have that idea that shuttle speed is that important. It is an upgrade that we see like one time in 10 or more games (counting only games with shuttle openings). At progamer level it is much more a PvT thing than a PvP.
because i havent seen any game of this build, explain how opening support bay and then getting a nexus is in anyway better than what the opponent is doing except he has much stronger pressure because of shuttle and his nexus is not that much later than yours. i would legit like to see a game where a pro is trying to hold his nexus with a shuttleless reaver whilst the opponent comes at him WITH a shuttle. i would imagine your shuttle comes out at best, when the opponent is at your doorstep which theoretically allows you to hold, but he has all the map control and the opportunity to harass or drop into your base whilst you have to wait for your expo to kick in. if you want the faster expo, open with the nexus and then get a robo support bay after. it defends the exact same timing push assuming you are willingly playing blind by skipping observers and you have no intention of harassing with shuttles. i cannot see any reason why you would follow up a reaver rush build with an immediate nexus and no shuttle or speed upgrade. like what is the point? if you want to defend you could open with observers and then go reaver whilst skipping shuttle and defend the exact same way except at least you dont straight up lose to a dt rush as well.
also unless things have changed, shuttle speed was a must in every pvp game. good luck trying to reveal vision with shuttle/moving across map with shuttle or trying to run away after a harass attempt with shuttle that has no speed. you are gifting away 1 or 2 reavers and a shuttle for like...nothing
skipping the obzerver is not a must, you can do it occasionaly. Of course that if you see dts coming you go fast obz
The idea of the opening is to get nexus before shuttle. Of course that you can go nexus before robo, but many times you need early robo to be able to play normal, then you see what your opponent is doing and you change your bo.
There is no much PvPs on progamer lavel nowdays, but i remember WhiteRa using it in the first TSL.
this game is an example of this bo vs dts game 5 is a better example of reaver expand, the commentator even says that. and Draco goes for robo, reaver and expand without a shuttle too.
there are many different possible variations.
And as far as i know speed shuttle was never the standard way to play in PvP.
?? the link you provided shows white ra opening with the safest and most standard robo opening. he goes obs first followed by reaver and then expands, which is not even close to what you are suggesting a "reaver-expand" build is. im pretty convinced at this point you just dont know what youre talking about in game 5 white ra would have lost to dt straight up, he took a risk and it paid off because draco opened with the safest robo opening and thus didnt have early enough reaver pressure. it doesnt even help that neither player didnt even attempt to build a shuttle and pressure each other despite draco knowing full well white ra went full greed. thats just bad play and luck from both players and the games you are mentioning are like 10 years old. the game isnt a good example of how "reaver-expand" is a legitimate build, its a good example of how you can get completely lucky on your build order especially if your opponent isnt proactive about abusing his strengths (stronger ground army due to later nexus).
going obs after you see dt coming is already a lost game because its too late. if youre lucky you will defend after having lost like your entire dragoon army by trying to block any ramps. also shuttle speed is standard in pvp, the 2nd upgrade gotten in pvp tech in literally every robo opening.
On October 12 2017 18:55 Golgotha wrote: Been doing pretty well in PvP! I had an awkward moment though against a DT opening. I saw the citadel and so I knew he had to be going DT most likely. So I just made a robo and then obs right away. Then I made some reavers with shuttles. I got lucky, he was bad and he just died to my goons since my obs could detect his DT.
BUT what if he was actually good? What he if waited for my army to leave the base and THEN attack? What if he split his dts and attacked two locations at once? I get the feeling that DT force you to play really defensive. It takes away the initiative and I am just sitting at home. So what do I do? What's the best way to react?
Was i correct in dropping down a robo right away and getting obs? Then I went for the usual shuttle and reaver. I simply attacked as soon as my reaver popped. I attacked his front while dropping his main and I got lucky with some big hits. But if he had split his DT and snuck into my base...I would have been 100% fucked.
I guess I should try the DT opening myself to see what the weakness is and how to exploit it. Cheers!
you dont need to leave your base asap when you get your reaver. make your first obs and just leave it with your goons at your nat entrance to stop any dt. the following shuttle reaver can fly solo to his base and do some harass. at that stage you are almost guaranteed to land at least 1 scarab, more if the opponent reacts badly. after the shuttle reaver you should be making a 2nd obs and then you can move out with your army and 1 obs + reaver and just win the game. the 2nd obs stays behind to defend any dt that comes through with new dragoons that spawn. you can skip some parts of this if you know hes not going to backstab or you know you can defend well enough without having to wait for everything, but the absolute safest methodical response would be as i said. for example if you know he only made 1 dt from 1 gate and you kill it at your doorstep, then you can just rush him with your first obs like you did because theres pretty much no way the 2nd dt is going to go behind your army and kill you. in 1 gate dt its not even common for players to produce the 2nd dt as the 1st dt will either win the game for you or show you that a 2nd dt wont be effective
On October 12 2017 21:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: ?? the link you provided shows white ra opening with the safest and most standard robo opening. he goes obs first followed by reaver and then expands, which is not even close to what you are suggesting a "reaver-expand" build is. im pretty convinced at this point you just dont know what youre talking about
going obs after you see dt coming is already a lost game because its too late. if youre lucky you will defend after having lost like your entire dragoon army by trying to block any ramps. also shuttle speed is standard in pvp, the 2nd upgrade gotten in pvp tech in literally every robo opening.
In the video he skips the shuttle to get a faster nexus after going robo first. This is the reaver expand!
You spoke a bout shuttle --> obz --> reaver --> speed --> second reaver --> harass as the standard And you told the 1 gate nexus to be the alternative.
We mentioned the reaver expand as a good opening.
You told that this bo does not give you any advantage and that pros don't play it. I gave you a link, told you game 5 (the most important one as they are 2-2) both players goes for robo --> nexus --> shuttle
You still have something to say?
Well then hf. There is no any more reason for me to speak with you. I just hope that the man looking to improve his PvP will know something more now.
On October 12 2017 21:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: ?? the link you provided shows white ra opening with the safest and most standard robo opening. he goes obs first followed by reaver and then expands, which is not even close to what you are suggesting a "reaver-expand" build is. im pretty convinced at this point you just dont know what youre talking about
going obs after you see dt coming is already a lost game because its too late. if youre lucky you will defend after having lost like your entire dragoon army by trying to block any ramps. also shuttle speed is standard in pvp, the 2nd upgrade gotten in pvp tech in literally every robo opening.
In the video he skips the shuttle to get a faster nexus after going robo first. This is the reaver expand!
You spoke a bout shuttle --> obz --> reaver --> speed --> second reaver --> harass as the standard And you told the 1 gate nexus to be the alternative.
We mentioned the reaver expand as a good opening.
You told that this bo does not give you any advantage and that pros don't play it. I gave you a link, told you game 5 (the most important one as they are 2-2) both players goes for robo --> nexus --> shuttle
You still have something to say?
Well then hf. There is no any more reason for me to speak with you. I just hope that the man looking to improve his PvP will know something more now.
yeah i just told you your link was worthless rofl. a 10yr old game with white ra whos scrub compared to korean pros and a player ive never even heard of. again, the build would have straight up lost to a normal dt rush build so you are taking a massive gamble. even if its not a dt rush build, a standard reaver rush (robo->shuttle + bay -> reaver) would have just won the game right there due to stronger ground army and shuttle support for reaver. the build auto loses vs 2 very common pvp builds. the only reason white-ra didnt get stomped that game is because draco went obs before reaver and draco didnt build a shuttle and front an attack, which was a MISPLAY by draco. highlighting draco's non-shuttle build as a good example of why your build is a good opening just shows lack of pvp knowledge. draco's decision to not apply pressure and just follow white-ra at that point was the incorrect decision. since you value the commentators so much listen to what they said in the game. they said white ra and dracos builds both were unusual, not standard
On October 12 2017 08:19 Jedi2 wrote: Hello, I am a new Terran player and would like to ask a few simple questions about some annoying things in TvP matchup, and assume Terran is doing siege expand (hope they are not too stupid)
1-How should I response against pylon blocking factory add-on? Is it ok to relocate factory even if my opponent aggressively send units to my base?
2-Should I always wall-in, I mean is it possible to defend against proxy gate + probe haras etc. with correct play?
3-Is getting a single wraith for defend against some reaver haras in the early/mid game is okay?I feel like on Fightning Spirit even if I place turrets on my natural expo it is easy for protoss to come and drop reaver due to cliffs near base.
Thank you.
They are not stupid questions at all. Basic questions are not stupid questions.
Adding a few things that the other two didn't mention:
1) Basic rule of thumb would be that you don't lift the factory if there is a chance that Protoss will be able to block it from landing - but if you killed the probe and know that no other probe or zealot is coming, yes, you can lift and relocate (or just lift and land again sometimes, because Protoss will cancel the pylon). Against zealot pressure you want to build a vulture before add-on, but against goons you want fast tank, so don't forget to scout while he is doing the pylon-harrass.
2) Wall-in is very safe against zealot-harrass, but don't understimate attacks with 2-3 zealots or more. Bring enough SCVs to repair and keep 2-3 close to the ramp for a while if he has many zealots, better safe than sorry. It's also unlucky if he scouts your first and blocks the wall, but that's just bad luck,you have to micro your heart out then. Expect him to come with zealots, and if no zealots come: prepare to fight goons on the ramp soon.
Also: It's hard to defend the wall vs early 2-gate-goon because Protoss can snipe marines/SCVs from behind the wall and your tank comes quite late, at a point when he has 3-4 goons already. This is especially difficult if you don't have a ramp or an inverted ramp (you start on bottom). On such maps, you might want to start with a 1rax expo with bunker or just build a bunker anyways if you're a beginner (and block with buildings/SCVs so that Protoss doesn't just walk past the bunker). Also: start mining gas earlier so that you can start tank + siege-mode right away when the add-on finishes. It's also just hard to wall-in on certain maps, you have to remember 4 different loctions oftentimes.
3) I saw Flash do this the other day, build a fast starport, get one wraith and lay mines under the shuttle while the wraith is driving it out. But that's stuff Flash can have fun with, he also knows exactly what to do with the fast starport, it's not worth building only for one wraith - You want to learn to defend with properly placed turrets first (imo), because the wraith-thing takes good mini-map-awareness and good control (and will keep you from macroing). Practice good turret placement in the single player, use the full range of the turrets so that you don't need so many. Also: The turrets can only kill the shuttle if Protoss stays too long, and they cannot prevent the drop if Protoss wants to drop. You build the turrets to stop him from just flying around your base endlessly, but you will have to use your units actively to kill his drop. And most importantly: transfer your SCVs away in time against reavers/templars, because if your SCVs survive, his drop has failed generally. Also: while he is dropping in the back, he might attack the front with the rest of his units, so if you are low on units and he is going shuttle, you might want to build a few rines and a bunker in the natural or wall-off the natural.
On Siege-Expand: Siege expand gives you no option to gain map control (like FD for example), and generally no good means to scout. So you cannot play very reactively. The advantage is: It gives you a fast 2nd command center and the relative safety of siege-mode, but be careful to take your natural against 2gate-openings because 2-3 siege-tanks can die quickly to 6-7 goons, and be prepared for an attack with a shuttle soon after you took your natural. You should then either opt for a very early 2base-push (like 3/4/5 factory) to punish a fast 3rd or to break out of your natural - or you go for tech right away, staying on 2 base for a while on only 2 factories and with very defensive, economic play but starting your 3rd CC soon, then adding more factories. Maybe a surprise-dropship is another way to gain map control after a siege-expo.
On October 12 2017 21:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: ?? the link you provided shows white ra opening with the safest and most standard robo opening. he goes obs first followed by reaver and then expands, which is not even close to what you are suggesting a "reaver-expand" build is. im pretty convinced at this point you just dont know what youre talking about
going obs after you see dt coming is already a lost game because its too late. if youre lucky you will defend after having lost like your entire dragoon army by trying to block any ramps. also shuttle speed is standard in pvp, the 2nd upgrade gotten in pvp tech in literally every robo opening.
In the video he skips the shuttle to get a faster nexus after going robo first. This is the reaver expand!
You spoke a bout shuttle --> obz --> reaver --> speed --> second reaver --> harass as the standard And you told the 1 gate nexus to be the alternative.
We mentioned the reaver expand as a good opening.
You told that this bo does not give you any advantage and that pros don't play it. I gave you a link, told you game 5 (the most important one as they are 2-2) both players goes for robo --> nexus --> shuttle
You still have something to say?
Well then hf. There is no any more reason for me to speak with you. I just hope that the man looking to improve his PvP will know something more now.
yeah i just told you your link was worthless rofl. a 10yr old game with white ra whos scrub compared to korean pros and a player ive never even heard of. again, the build would have straight up lost to a normal dt rush build so you are taking a massive gamble. even if its not a dt rush build, a standard reaver rush (robo->shuttle + bay -> reaver) would have just won the game right there due to stronger ground army and shuttle support for reaver. the build auto loses vs 2 very common pvp builds. the only reason white-ra didnt get stomped that game is because draco went obs before reaver and draco didnt build a shuttle and front an attack, which was a MISPLAY by draco. highlighting draco's non-shuttle build as a good example of why your build is a good opening just shows lack of pvp knowledge. draco's decision to not apply pressure and just follow white-ra at that point was the incorrect decision. since you value the commentators so much listen to what they said in the game. they said white ra and dracos builds both were unusual, not standard
draco's easily one of the best non-korean players of all time he played in korea for a while
On October 13 2017 13:50 Alpha-NP- wrote: How do Zergs micro 2 control groups to spawn broodling siege tanks? Is it like shift clicking that Siege Tanks use against Goons?
queens are the perfect unit for the 'cloning' technique. You make sure you have vision of the siege tanks (I like parasiting one), then you have the entire control group, then you press spawn broodling on one, deselect one queen, spawn broodling on another, deselect one, etc, until you're out of queens and he's out of tanks. It's really recommended to change the broodling hotkey - I found that cloning became significantly easier when I have it at D compared to the old B.
Another cool thing is that if you have like 12 queens and only 7 of them have energy, you can tell all of them to broodling, and then only the 7 ones with energy will start moving forward. So then you can first select all 12, broodling 1 tank with them, then select the 7 that start moving forward and clone from that point.
On October 13 2017 17:28 AcMilan91 wrote: What is the fastest way to check saturation at mineral patches with zerg?
You can just box the area between the Hatchery and minerals. If you think there are more than 12 then box the top half then the bottom half. I've never really had to do this so maybe there is another way but that seems the easiest.
On October 13 2017 22:03 Liquid`Drone wrote: Another cool thing is that if you have like 12 queens and only 7 of them have energy, you can tell all of them to broodling, and then only the 7 ones with energy will start moving forward. So then you can first select all 12, broodling 1 tank with them, then select the 7 that start moving forward and clone from that point.
What are you supposed to do against a fast siege mode in TvT if you 1 rax expand. Even economic factory first builds seem to have too much stuff in my natural before I can defend myself. I have been trying to stall until my siege mode is finished, but I still have less tanks and can't hold.
I tend to be on the fast siege mode side of that equation when I play tvt. The koreans I face usually make two bunkers, first one far out, then one closer to their cc, to stall my tanks from being able to reach their cc/mineral line before their own tanks manage to position themselves. It's pretty much always 'very close', but they also almost always end up managing to hold, sometimes with the aid of wraiths. It basically seems to come down to execution - but the first far-out bunker (which they also spend some scvs repairing) seems pretty crucial.
Even if you can't out-produce the other Terran in units for a while, you can out-produce him or her in SCVs. Ideally you don't want to use those as fighters/tanking-units but instead to grow your economy advantage even bigger, but if you have to, you can pull some to break/push back a contain.
If you learn when it's viable to pull SCVs and how many against his first few sieged tanks, you can make it a lot harder for the other Terran to siege you up. He will need marines and bunkers himself or vultures, giving you a chance to out-produce him in terms of siege-tanks quicker, at which point his other units won't do much.
One simple question, how do u control groups in Zerg, i go 2 for first overlord, 3 for second, and then 1 for first drone scout 5,6,7,8,9,0 hatches and then 1 for mutaa, 2 for lings 3 for hydra den until lurkers, 4 for lings or other units, what about you?
Do good Zergs ever make Devourers in ZvT for against Valkyries?
Do good Zergs ever make Devourers in ZvP for against Corsairs?
How come Terrans don't use EMP Shockwave against mass Queens? I saw some games of Koreans making 2 control groups of Queens to Spawn Broodling Siege Tanks. And I thought to myself that in 2v2 those would lose their energy from EMP Shockwave so fast in 2v2.
No, they don't make devourers against Valkyries. EMP could be good against queens if they stacked and weren't defended, but researching EMP in anticipation of that happening is a waste of money. It's really unlikely to pay off the 200/200 cost, and irradiate is already good against queens and readily available.
On October 15 2017 23:58 Alpha-NP- wrote: Do good Zergs ever make Devourers in ZvT for against Valkyries?
Do good Zergs ever make Devourers in ZvP for against Corsairs?
How come Terrans don't use EMP Shockwave against mass Queens? I saw some games of Koreans making 2 control groups of Queens to Spawn Broodling Siege Tanks. And I thought to myself that in 2v2 those would lose their energy from EMP Shockwave so fast in 2v2.
By the time zerg get the tech to get devourers protoss usually stops making corsairs.
I think emp is definitely worth it but Zerg usually hides their queens deep in their base so getting a vessel there is pretty hard.
EPT
