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On February 28 2017 19:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2017 18:54 InDi wrote:On February 28 2017 18:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 23 2017 20:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I notice that a lot of people who go gateway nexus forge end up dead to zergling pressure. Pulling that off really requires you to pay very close attention with your scouting probe - you have to know where his zerglings are before and how many he ended up building before you apply any pressure. (As zerg, I avoid engaging his zealots and just run through instead.)
Meanwhile I also notice that when I'm p and I go gateway forge nexus, I usually still enter midgame with economic advantage, or at least not disadvantage; going about it this way allows me to pressure with impunity. At the very top level I'm sure gateway nexus forge is a better build, but I think a lot of people who play less perfect than that, will have more success with gateway forge nexus. Nice info. And a thank you to you, EvilF, Indi, Empathy, and all the other helpful repliers.  Toss is the race I play as the least, and when I have I've usually Forge FE'd in pvz. 1 Gate Expand seems like a lot more fun/less passive (plus is kinda the 'hot' opening right now), and I like the quicker tech. Was kind of hoping ppl would be of the opinion that a 'nearly-naked'/quick FEs are worth a go, but looking at the walling more closely, yeah, it's pretty hopeless without an early Forge. So yah, gate-forge-nex builds seem like the ticket. Thanks again for the replies. (btw, why no Liquipedia page for 1 Gate FE? Forge FE has its own (very well-detailed) page.) 1 Gate openings are indeed way more fun to play than FFE. Just for the record, the idea is to do gate-nexus-forge not gate-forge-nexus At considerably increased risk, of course.
Isn't really that risky, the idea is that since your 1st zeal will be already putting some pressure up the Z can't punish your unfinished wall and they also buy you enough time to build the forge behind, but as Drone said you need to pay attention to the timings and get it going, also it depends a lot on the Z's response, if he went greedy you can get the cannon later to speed up ur tech, if he went something like 12 lings, you need to get ur cannon asap, since he can kill the gateway before the cannon finishes. Just remember to not suicide zeals for nothing, which is the harder thing to do in this BO in my opinion
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On March 01 2017 00:37 InDi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2017 19:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 28 2017 18:54 InDi wrote:On February 28 2017 18:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 23 2017 20:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I notice that a lot of people who go gateway nexus forge end up dead to zergling pressure. Pulling that off really requires you to pay very close attention with your scouting probe - you have to know where his zerglings are before and how many he ended up building before you apply any pressure. (As zerg, I avoid engaging his zealots and just run through instead.)
Meanwhile I also notice that when I'm p and I go gateway forge nexus, I usually still enter midgame with economic advantage, or at least not disadvantage; going about it this way allows me to pressure with impunity. At the very top level I'm sure gateway nexus forge is a better build, but I think a lot of people who play less perfect than that, will have more success with gateway forge nexus. Nice info. And a thank you to you, EvilF, Indi, Empathy, and all the other helpful repliers. Toss is the race I play as the least, and when I have I've usually Forge FE'd in pvz. 1 Gate Expand seems like a lot more fun/less passive (plus is kinda the 'hot' opening right now), and I like the quicker tech. Was kind of hoping ppl would be of the opinion that a 'nearly-naked'/quick FEs are worth a go, but looking at the walling more closely, yeah, it's pretty hopeless without an early Forge. So yah, gate-forge-nex builds seem like the ticket. Thanks again for the replies. (btw, why no Liquipedia page for 1 Gate FE? Forge FE has its own (very well-detailed) page.) 1 Gate openings are indeed way more fun to play than FFE. Just for the record, the idea is to do gate-nexus-forge not gate-forge-nexus At considerably increased risk, of course. Isn't really that risky, the idea is that since your 1st zeal will be already putting some pressure up the Z can't punish your unfinished wall and they also buy you enough time to build the forge behind, but as Drone said you need to pay attention to the timings and get it going, also it depends a lot on the Z's response, if he went greedy you can get the cannon later to speed up ur tech, if he went something like 12 lings, you need to get ur cannon asap, since he can kill the gateway before the cannon finishes. Just remember to not suicide zeals for nothing, which is the harder thing to do in this BO in my opinion
Obviously, most of what's going to drive the decision between gate-forge-nexus and gate-nexus-forge is scouting information. You have to see what's going on, then decide.
My comments were more along the lines of which build would be my 'comfort food' build. We all have our preferences/go-to openings and builds that we default to unless there's a good reason not to (such as early-enough scouting info).
I'm just trying to get away from going Forge FE reflexively when I'm Toss, for reasons we've already talked about (i.e. boring, passive, later tech).
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Gate FE doesn't get you faster tech unless you go core before cannon
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What do you mean with later tech? Opening with forge gives a faster cybernetics than opening with gateway first unless you're going 10 forge 2 cannons, nexus, gateway or some other horrible opening every game.
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What about relative to spire timing if you force out a lot of lings?
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Zerg will still have their tech at the time they need it they just wont have as many drones because protoss forced so many lings.
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Yeah, Zerg relative timing is actually faster (corsair can't kill ovie except maybe near P base) but 3 hatch lair economy is awkward since you need around 20 lings for the usual 5 zealot attack (and you are on 3 hatches for a long time). There are variations where you stop zealots and get faster tech though (Movie vs Soulkey on EotS, ASL 2)
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On March 02 2017 00:18 B-royal wrote:
What do you mean with later tech? Opening with forge gives a faster cybernetics than opening with gateway first unless you're going 10 forge 2 cannons, nexus, gateway or some other horrible opening every game.
Hey!... Some of my Toss openings resemble that remark.
But srsly, not sure what's so horrible there. Forge on 10 is pretty common with FFE, probably 'cuz if it's any later you can't get your 1st cannon up at the nat in time to defend 5 pool, even if you saw it in time. And 2 cannons early is not an uncommon response either to early ling pressure or attempted run-bys.
It *would be* a horrible opening if you built cannons before nex with no scouting info that told you that you needed to. 
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It's only horrible in a standard game. It's a good thing if your opponent is going 9 pool speed for example ;D
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I sometimes see terrans go for a 3 fact timing in tvp after their FE, either mine or siege. Why would someone want to go 3 factory as opposed to 4 etc?
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On March 03 2017 00:44 B-royal wrote:
It's only horrible in a standard game. It's a good thing if your opponent is going 9 pool speed for example ;D
Yup, 'xactly.
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On March 03 2017 11:56 Dazed_Spy wrote:
I sometimes see terrans go for a 3 fact timing in tvp after their FE, either mine or siege. Why would someone want to go 3 factory as opposed to 4 etc?
I'm not a Terran, but my guess is to punish an extremely greedy third from toss such as taking a third off of 1 gate or before robo. 3 fact vs a 2 base protoss probably isn't very effective.
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When I, for example, am transferring workers from my main to my nat - and I have no "active vision" of the nat's mineralline (because no unit nearby + nex not finished), i noticed that clicking on the empty gas extractor works much better to make the sent workers mineralwalk through their colleagues. Does anybody know why that is, and whats the difference in this regard between gas- and min-patches?
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That's because you don't have vision on mineral patches from morphing hatch/nexus. On FS this happens to be the case with naturals, but you usually have vision on at least one mineral patch at the third.
Lol that's what you said, I guess it's because you have vision on gas
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I'm watching dual streams by Effort and Shinee and I noticed something. Shinee irradiated a muta in a group and on Shinee's stream it appeard to be the top one which had that irradiation cloud on it, however, on Effort's stream the irradiated muta was somewhere in that group and not the top one. So do stacked air units indeed appear differently from other player's views? I always thought that it's 100% the same view for any of the players in a game.
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On March 04 2017 10:29 RedW4rr10r wrote:
I'm watching dual streams by Effort and Shinee and I noticed something. Shinee irradiated a muta in a group and on Shinee's stream it appeard to be the top one which had that irradiation cloud on it, however, on Effort's stream the irradiated muta was somewhere in that group and not the top one. So do stacked air units indeed appear differently from other player's views? I always thought that it's 100% the same view for any of the players in a game.
When the VODs go up it would be helpful if you could pinpoint the times
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On March 05 2017 17:09 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 10:29 RedW4rr10r wrote:
I'm watching dual streams by Effort and Shinee and I noticed something. Shinee irradiated a muta in a group and on Shinee's stream it appeard to be the top one which had that irradiation cloud on it, however, on Effort's stream the irradiated muta was somewhere in that group and not the top one. So do stacked air units indeed appear differently from other player's views? I always thought that it's 100% the same view for any of the players in a game. When the VODs go up it would be helpful if you could pinpoint the times
Well, I've found the scene in Effort's vod but I don't find any vods by Shinee, unfortunately.
The scene alone from only one point of view doesn't make that much sense when the referring scene from Shinee is missing, but anyways, here's the link: VOD at 2:13:40
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Seems you are right!
+ Show Spoiler [Proof] +
That's very interesting. Good eye! I learn something new about Brood War every damn year; just over 2 months into 2017, the trend continues. Crazy.
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Wow that is actually very interesting. Pretty big disadvantage for EffOrt right there. Imagine it being the other way around and EffOrt having a much easier time pulling out the irradiated mutalisk.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SomTFzC.jpg)
