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Probemicro
3708 Posts
-shinee irradiates a mutalisk at coordinates (x,y) -shinee pc sends a data packet to effort pc that a mutalisk at coordinates (x,y) has become irradiated -effort pc realises there are multiple mutalisks occupying the same coordinate at that point in time (because of stacking glitch). but 1 mutalisk HAS to be irradiated so it decides to choose a random mutalisk at that point to be irradiated simplistic i know, maybe some expert on BW engine can elaborate lol | ||
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RedW4rr10r
Switzerland749 Posts
Thank you, Baku! I totally forgot about that Korhal vod project. On March 06 2017 15:07 Jealous wrote: Seems you are right! + Show Spoiler [Proof] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SomTFzC.jpg) That's very interesting. Good eye! I learn something new about Brood War every damn year; just over 2 months into 2017, the trend continues. Crazy. Thanks for the proof pics!  On March 06 2017 16:53 chrisolo wrote: Wow that is actually very interesting. Pretty big disadvantage for EffOrt right there. Imagine it being the other way around and EffOrt having a much easier time pulling out the irradiated mutalisk. Shinee's stream was ahead by like 1-2 seconds (close enough for enjoying a dual stream) and when I saw that irradiation going down I was like: "Ah, gonna be ezpz for Effort pulling out that guy". However, when I saw that on Effort's stream I was like "O____O" On March 06 2017 20:14 Probemicro wrote: so i guess its something like -shinee irradiates a mutalisk at coordinates (x,y) -shinee pc sends a data packet to effort pc that a mutalisk at coordinates (x,y) has become irradiated -effort pc realises there are multiple mutalisks occupying the same coordinate at that point in time (because of stacking glitch). but 1 mutalisk HAS to be irradiated so it decides to choose a random mutalisk at that point to be irradiated simplistic i know, maybe some expert on BW engine can elaborate lol Yeah, it must be something like this, at least it sounds plausible. Maybe our so beloved real-time strategy game isn't as real time as we thought xD edit: Unfortunately that frame can't be seen on Effort's pov, but Shinee clicks on the mutalisk that's to the most left side at one point when they're not perfectly stacked, so I assume that eventually the "correct" mutalisk gets irradiated. If the engine decides it randomly to the process described above, it could be bad because if you purposely irradiate a healthy mutalisk but the moste weakened muta gets irradiated in the end (though I doubt that terran players have the chance to check the muta they want to irradiate^^). Would be interesting to exactly know what happened there. | ||
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Jealous
10263 Posts
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RedW4rr10r
Switzerland749 Posts
On March 06 2017 22:07 Jealous wrote: Now I'm curious - will both their replays show different Mutalisk on top? If so, that along with the above goes against what I read earlier, where someone was testing how air units stack or something and it was due to time built or unit# or something? Damn, I wish I remembered enough to search for it ): I think you're referring to this thread? | ||
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Jealous
10263 Posts
Yes. Seems we did not get the full story there! People had succeeded in figuring out how the game stacks the units for one player alone; the question is now, what is the discrepancy between both players' game engines in interpreting this information (along the lines of what Probemicro was theorizing)? We need R1CH or someone from SCAI here I think T_T; | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Jealous
10263 Posts
On March 07 2017 01:07 B-royal wrote: Since we're on the topic of replays. How do replays replicate workers bugging out/mining? I thought replays were very simple files with only the executed commands saved, and the game essentially gets played out with those commands. How do they then manage to perfectly replicate how the workers mine? I guess that proves that the worker will fuck up in an identical manner every time it is put in a certain scenario? | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Highgamer
1447 Posts
My 2 cents: First of all: 2fac into 3rd CC is quite greedy, depending on what P does. So oftentimes, establishing the 3rd isn't safe before getting fact number 3 and 4 anyways. Reading the situation and getting sufficient map-vision after starting the 3rd CC is actually key to not mess up this strategy again and again... sometimes you have to get as many units out asap to defend, sometimes you can be sure that you won't get attacked any time soon. I'd say, as a rule of thumb, if you have 2 fact and plan to take your 3rd, keep pumping tanks throughout, add 1-2 gols only if you need/prefer, and build fact 3-4 in time before floating the 3rd if you need vulture support/distraction. You're planning a 3base-push, so you have to work on your tank-count or the push will be too late too weak. You want to have some 18-20 tanks (for +2/+1-push), building those alone from roughly 2 facts throughout will take around 8 minutes, and apart from the first tank you don't start tank-production before min 6 or so (roughly). Also only tanks will really protect you against anything else but a mass-zealot attack. If you take your 2nd and 3rd gas at reasonable times, build SCVs, depots throughout and advance your tech properly, there will be this moment when you have 4 facts (2 addons), +2/+1 on the way, vessel in the making... and suddenly you have excess gas and minerals start piling up. THAT is the moment to 1) add 2, 4, and so on facts until 10 or so, go up to 3-4 addons and 2) go into triple depot production for the vulture pumping. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2041 Posts
- If you go fast 3cc after FD you only make armory after the CC starts, hence you don't make goliaths - Rule of a thumb is, factories with tank production = amount of refineries. You only add your 2nd gas after starting 3rd CC, hence having 2 factories = 1 makes tanks other makes vultures. - Just after you start your 3rd CC add armory/gas and 2 extra factories. Above can vary of course but these are the principles. For example if there is a reaver drop you'll need eb/turrets asap. Same with DT, you need eb/academy. Also another story is if you like to go for fast upgrades, so then you need your armory and 2nd gas before 3rd CC and I also suggest making 3 factories w. goliaths/academy (unless map is favorable to take an easy 3rd or opponent goes mass expand too). All is based on scouting but I hope I've helped. | ||
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Highgamer
1447 Posts
Ports are open just like they were when I had Win 7, I checked. PC is the same. When I had 7, a few people couldn't join my games cus of lat, but I found games within seconds/minutes during european evenings, even when Iccup had less active players. The moment I had installed Win10 I have hardly anyone joining, and so far I know that some who could join can't anymore. Have been observing this a few days, and I doubt it's a coinicidence. There are some threads about graphic/fullscreen issues with Win10 and the like, but I couldn't find one about hosting-probs (cus it sounds unreasonable!?) | ||
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RedW4rr10r
Switzerland749 Posts
On March 10 2017 06:16 Highgamer wrote: Does anyone know of any hosting problems connected to using Win 10? Ports are open just like they were when I had Win 7, I checked. PC is the same. When I had 7, a few people couldn't join my games cus of lat, but I found games within seconds/minutes during european evenings, even when Iccup had less active players. The moment I had installed Win10 I have hardly anyone joining, and so far I know that some who could join can't anymore. Have been observing this a few days, and I doubt it's a coinicidence. There are some threads about graphic/fullscreen issues with Win10 and the like, but I couldn't find one about hosting-probs (cus it sounds unreasonable!?) I doubt that this might help you or is even the case for you ... but when i upgraded my computer with a wireless lan card, no one could join my games anymore, either, although portforwarding and such was correct. However, I'm still using a cable (I wanted that wlan card just in case I take my computer to a friend or so). I had to disable thad WLAN card for both in my system settings and the router and ever since it worked again. | ||
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Jealous
10263 Posts
On March 10 2017 06:16 Highgamer wrote: Does anyone know of any hosting problems connected to using Win 10? Ports are open just like they were when I had Win 7, I checked. PC is the same. When I had 7, a few people couldn't join my games cus of lat, but I found games within seconds/minutes during european evenings, even when Iccup had less active players. The moment I had installed Win10 I have hardly anyone joining, and so far I know that some who could join can't anymore. Have been observing this a few days, and I doubt it's a coinicidence. There are some threads about graphic/fullscreen issues with Win10 and the like, but I couldn't find one about hosting-probs (cus it sounds unreasonable!?) Are you sure your machine's local IP address remained the same? Also, make sure it is set to static IP? | ||
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Highgamer
1447 Posts
I think the issue was that switching to Win10, the new OS somehow fixed something about my connection, so I could actually connect via ethernet, which seeminly I didn't do for a long time, I had an ancient manual broadband-connection. I tried to start fresh and reset the modem, now I don't even have a standard gateway, can't access my modem to set the ports... but people can join so w/e | ||
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Jealous
10263 Posts
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TooLate
7 Posts
I want to play Terran. I would like to practice one BO per matchup that doesn't require too much intensive micro, as I want to focus on macro cycles, getting used to control groups/camera hotkeys, the standard compositions... and hopefully, that can defend itself against cheese, as I'm sure I will encounter a lot of that in D/D- iCCup. Ah, and I'd play mostly Fighting Spirit/Python, as those seem to be the most common maps. In case that affects the build choice Sorry if this question is asked too much, but with this game having been played for so long, I find resources from many years ago and I don't know if they're outdated in today's metagame or not. | ||
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Jealous
10263 Posts
On March 13 2017 08:48 TooLate wrote: Hey guys, I really want to start playing and learning SCBW, but I'm kinda lost about what build orders should I focus on as a beginner. I've been looking at Liquipedia, but there seem to be a lot of options. I want to play Terran. I would like to practice one BO per matchup that doesn't require too much intensive micro, as I want to focus on macro cycles, getting used to control groups/camera hotkeys, the standard compositions... and hopefully, that can defend itself against cheese, as I'm sure I will encounter a lot of that in D/D- iCCup. Ah, and I'd play mostly Fighting Spirit/Python, as those seem to be the most common maps. In case that affects the build choice Sorry if this question is asked too much, but with this game having been played for so long, I find resources from many years ago and I don't know if they're outdated in today's metagame or not. If you want the latest in build orders, I'd recommend going to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/429855-recommended-fpv-games-post-kespa Look at Flash/Last/other top Terrans. Watch a few of their games until you find a build order/playstyle you like. Then write down when they build something, when they send the scout, so on and so forth. Then you practice, practice, practice More specifically to your question, playing safer may be appealing but it's not optimal. I'd suggest Siege-Expand for TvT and TvP if you wanna be safe. I'm not sure what to suggest for TvZ - perhaps a better Terran can answer that. Maybe 1 Rax + float CC from main but with more Marines first? And SCV walling the ramp for lings? Seems like that would be pretty safe most of the time. | ||
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TooLate
7 Posts
On March 13 2017 09:07 Jealous wrote: Look at Flash/Last/other top Terrans. Watch a few of their games until you find a build order/playstyle you like. Then write down when they build something, when they send the scout, so on and so forth. Then you practice, practice, practice Thanks! I thought about it and I've been watching a lot of Flash' streams (him being the reason why I wanted to play SCBW haha) but I thought it'd be aiming too high to try to copy one of his builds lol. Guess I will hunt down which ones look the most basic. More specifically to your question, playing safer may be appealing but it's not optimal. I just said safe as in not play too cheesy/aggressive nor way too greedy. I just don't want to fall into bad habits basically, I don't want to just turtle either. What do you mean with playing safe not being optimal? Also, thanks a lot for your suggestions, I'll make sure to try those! | ||
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Jealous
10263 Posts
On March 13 2017 09:20 TooLate wrote: Thanks! I thought about it and I've been watching a lot of Flash' streams (him being the reason why I wanted to play SCBW haha) but I thought it'd be aiming too high to try to copy one of his builds lol. Guess I will hunt down which ones look the most basic. I just said safe as in not play too cheesy/aggressive nor way too greedy. I just don't want to fall into bad habits basically, I don't want to just turtle either. What do you mean with playing safe not being optimal? Also, thanks a lot for your suggestions, I'll make sure to try those! For example Siege-Expand is very safe because you are pretty much immune to early Zealot and Dragoon pressure without requiring very much micro. However, it is also somewhat dated because you can get a Command Center earlier if you do the more micro-intensive Zealot-tight semi-wall in your main and then follow up with an FD push. This is a more flexible and economic build, and is better suited for the more common Protoss openings, most of which have a relatively early Nexus (after 1 to 4 goons). So, Siege-Expand is worse than FD in almost every scenario (except vs. 10-15 gate, 9/9 gate, stuff like that), but it is safer. There is a general flow-chart in terms of your build vs. your opponent build, and it goes something like: cheese > greedy > standard > safe > cheese So while the "safe" build is better against the cheesy ladder players you may run into, it will leave you in a disadvantage against someone who played standard or greedy. Standard can still hold some cheese relatively well (even against 10-15 you are unlikely to outright die if you go FD; you just won't be able to take your natural for a while). Greedy loses to cheese most of the time. My overall point I guess is that while going "safe" is okay when you're just learning the game and want to get into the midgame and macro, don't be surprised if you're consistently behind people who played standard or greedy. Once you feel a bit more comfortable, pursue more standard builds. Safe: I already listed what I think are "safe," but I guess in TvZ "safest" would be 1 base 3 rax pressure into fast Vessel? Like some old school Boxer stuff. Will be hard to keep up with a 3 base Zerg though unless you do a lot of damage. Safe and aggressive kinda overlap here? Standard: FD vs. Protoss, Rax FE vs. Zerg, I'm not sure about TvT but maybe Rax FE as well? Greedy: 14cc all 3 MUs. Cheese: BBS, 2 Fac vs. P, Strong FD might be considered cheese since it is hard to scout? vs. P, 2 port Wraith in TvT and TvZ might be considered cheese I guess. Some builds I guess are more "aggressive" than outright cheese, like fast Dropship play. EDIT: Page 300 post 6000! My little thread has grown so much ^-^; | ||
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