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On March 18 2017 01:29 B-royal wrote:
Yes protoss takes quite a risk [going 11 nex, 11 forge] because a 5 pool and 9 pool are most likely auto-wins. But I'm not talking about series, where you should and have to mix up your build order. Just talking about ladder games, which are in my case 99% of the time overpool.
I haven't had the situation occur to me where I went 12 hatch vs this build.
If I'd already gone overpool and was worried about this build, I'd scout fairly early, cancel pool when I saw the early nex, and go 3 hatch before pool.
Seems like it's only a strong P build if Z insists on sticking with their overpool start, or is just late to see it.
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Interesting suggestion. I think it's worth trying but I have my doubts... You cancel pool, your third hatch is not going to be that much earlier (20 seconds roughly), your lair timing stays about the same but protoss can skip cannons at his natural and can even cannon rush your third (or natural).
I think InDi is right in just treating it like a regular build order. "Ok he has a small economic advantage, but he won't put up any zealot pressure. Now play out the game like normal while taking advantage of the lack of pressure."
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^ Try both a few times, see what works better, then tell us your war tales. 
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I think it's like you said, classic risk->reward situation for the P. Only wanted to say that since cannons finish after lings spawn, if he sees 3 drones he can cancel and speed up core even more, so making a pair seems better. Also 3 hat before pool only works properly with something like 12/13 imo, even 12/11 feels akward because you can't really tech and take advantage of all the larva properly (could be better with 4/5hat followup though)
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Norway28650 Posts
I don't think cancelling pool is viable. Have not tried, but you'd probably end up cancelling so late that your first hatch is delayed, and well, everything would be delayed.
I like scouting and seeing whether p makes gateway before second cannon or not. it normally feels like when they go forge nexus cannon gateway or nexus forge cannon gateway, I can start 4 pairs of lings instead of 3, and get there with 8 lings before second cannon or zealot is out. And then 8 lings deal quite a lot of damage, either he blocks with many probes and you get to kill 4-5 and halt mining some, or he doesn't and you get to kill the cannon while having 4+ lings left and then you can just keep making lings and win if you do well.
The timing is close, sometimes p has second cannon just about finishing when I come, but usually I beat them with enough seconds to spare that I deal enough damage to even out some of the BO advantage he had, or even just flat out win if they didn't notice the 4th ling pair building, which happens. (This is less likely to happen the better the p is though)
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On March 18 2017 09:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think cancelling pool is viable. Have not tried, but you'd probably end up cancelling so late that your first hatch is delayed, and well, everything would be delayed.
It's not really meant to speed up your second hatch [first xp hatch], it speeds up your third.
Of course, it depends on what variation/follow-up of overpool you were going with. A lot of 'em set down an early second hatch, like on 11 (which is a good eco response to nex-first; pool cancel and earlier third hatch just follows through greedily on that).
Since you were already banking money for second hatch, you're not really waiting on a pool cancel to start that.
Of course, if you were thinking of an aggression response instead, like the rest of your post talks about, then things are different.
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On March 18 2017 12:07 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 09:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think cancelling pool is viable. Have not tried, but you'd probably end up cancelling so late that your first hatch is delayed, and well, everything would be delayed. It's not really meant to speed up your second hatch [first xp hatch], it speeds up your third. Of course, it depends on what variation/follow-up of overpool you were going with. A lot of 'em set down an early second hatch, like on 11 (which is a good eco response to nex-first; pool cancel and earlier third hatch just follows through greedily on that). Since you were already banking money for second hatch, you're not really waiting on a pool cancel to start that. Of course, if you were thinking of an aggression response instead, like the rest of your post talks about, then things are different.
Do you have any VODs or reps of this?
EDIT: Guess that's a resounding "no" from the peanut gallery.
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If you cancel the pool and go for 3 hatch, P will cannon rush your 3rd. Already faced this, but it can also depend on luck of scout, I have lost to 3 hatch no pool, since I scouted it last and couldn't react to it (then 3 hatch hydra allin went on  ), but if scouted a cannon rush can hurt you badly (won at least 1 game like that too).
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On March 20 2017 19:28 InDi wrote:If you cancel the pool and go for 3 hatch, P will cannon rush your 3rd. Already faced this, but it can also depend on luck of scout, I have lost to 3 hatch no pool, since I scouted it last and couldn't react to it (then 3 hatch hydra allin went on ), but if scouted a cannon rush can hurt you badly (won at least 1 game like that too).
Yah, can be a lil' bit risky in the face of early scouting + luck of the draw, agreed on that.
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Concerning stasis... Is it an immediate spell, or a projectile? In other words, can two arbiters freeze each other? Can stasis be dodged?
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It's immediate but idk about freezing each at the same time.
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Norway28650 Posts
two arbiters can freeze each other (small window between activation and it landing, if you tell two arbiters to stasis each other, they'll both be stasised). Stasis can't be dodged if it's targeted at a specific unit.
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On March 21 2017 06:05 shall_burn wrote:
Concerning stasis... Is it an immediate spell, or a projectile? In other words, can two arbiters freeze each other? Can stasis be dodged?
It`s an "instant" spell (unlike the EMP rocket, hussar for terrans), but having some phases of spell initiaiton so you may dodge it with a perfectly timed recall/burrow even if it`s pointed on the specific unit.
And if the stasis was issued out in such manner that the first phase was already initiated EMP won`t be able to stop it, just like in the case of "zimp-recalls".
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They can freeze each other at the same time. I think this is true for every instant spell/shot, just not very likely to happen. Like when an observer tries to kill his starting scvs, it is very rare that they kill each other simultaneously.
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Germany3128 Posts
Does anyone know if Starcraft commentators Lee Seung Won 이승원 and Park Sang Hyun 박상현 are the former players CoolweN and SoMa respectively?
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Do you ever get in a complete slump? Past few days I'm playing like ass (lol), constantly misclicking hotkeys, my fingers feel really slow, I'm misclicking with my mouse constantly.
![[image loading]](http://cdn.samuraitradingacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Trader-Learning-Curve.jpg)
Admittedly I've been playing, but playing with people that are a lot below my level, and off racing a lot too (CPL league). I've barely been playing with people at my level or above it. Maybe that's why these past 4 days feel so bad...
It's the first time I've felt this bad while playing, I've had days where I'd play worse than I could but not like this or this long.
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On March 22 2017 05:23 B-royal wrote:
Do you ever get in a complete slump? Past few days I'm playing like ass (lol), constantly misclicking hotkeys, my fingers feel really slow, I'm misclicking with my mouse constantly.
Admittedly I've been playing, but playing with people that are a lot below my level, and off racing a lot too (CPL league). I've barely been playing with people at my level or above it. Maybe that's why these past 4 days feel so bad...
It's the first time I've felt this bad while playing, I've had days where I'd play worse than I could but not like this or this long.
I took maybe 4-6 months "off" between when I was at my recent peak (getting C+) and now. I spent my time coaching, casting, and doing IRL stuff.
Last week I had a break from IRL stuff, more or less, and I felt like I could just play a couple game and get back on my feet. I played two tournament series, three teamleague matches, and about 60 ICCup matches in one week, and I feel like I haven't won a single meaningful game but I've lost every single one that had any weight attributed to it mentally and results-wise. Every game feels like it would have been an embarrassment if I lost, an embarrassment because I lost, or an embarrassment because of how hard I lost. I can feel my self-esteem in the game decreasing rapidly, and I think it has had an impact on my gameplay. As you know I am also a coach in CPL, and right now I have a losing record against 2 of my students and lost 2+ games in a row vs. a third. It's a downhill slope that I think is heavily reliant on mentality. I lose a game I feel that I didn't deserve to lose or against a player I should have beat, and I instantly get pushed to mental extremes, like anger, playing hyper-aggressive when it's dumb to do so, or super-safe when it's equally dumb to do so. I also see myself getting an advantage and get premature elation because I feel like I am in the clear for a win and then I obviously start fucking it up for myself.
I'm sure it's different for everyone, but my best suggestion (at the potential expense of CPL, admittedly) would be to take a week off of StarCraft entirely and approach it with new eyes when you get back. You will notice things you did not notice about your play when you were mentally locked into some zone which may have been unfavorable to your play. Some of the best results I've achieved in StarCraft and other games have come from a 1-2 week break prior to competition, like Bisu going to Thailand.
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Exactly the same is happening to me at the moment, but for me when you get into this state of losing everything, there is a moment when something just "clicks" on your brain and you improve from then on... but I have been doing like shit for the last week :D Losing to people I was winning 1 month ago, although I am trying to play vs "good" people now
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Another thing to consider is that ladder reset pretty recently on ICCup, if that is part of your issue.
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EPT
