On January 30 2017 20:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not really sure going quick 4 bases is that good anymore,there are so many ways to punish it and behind this protoss doesnt really need to go entirely all in,just with delayed third he is gonna be ok,on top of that he can double expand u cant do much about it.
What are the good ways to punish it? It is still very popular at lower levels.
Gateway first is so hard to punish them, at my level zerg just tend to make 1 sunken early game (which is bad i know... but it means that i cant run around killing drones)
Again 2 base speedzeal is hard against zergs who know proper simcities these days.
2 base dragoon heavy styled attacks? seems quite effective IMO..
Opening 1 gate into exp may be hard for low level players, try to get your micro right and learn when NOT to attack, if you make 2 zeals + exp, and you forced 1 sunken and 10 lings you are already ahead with your ~17 probes against his ~9.
If Z takes a 3rd natural and sunkens up and simcities you want to avoid him gathering units (hydras) you don't need to attack suicide your zealots, just keep them alive, while you add templars to the mix and get your 3rd. Its a matter of knowing what the Z is doing to react accordingly.
If you preffer a more aggressive style early dragoon pressure punishes those builds a lot, but it is quite weak if spotted. I recommend that you take a look at the CoDra guide, which I used to quite a lot of success. But in the end I recommend you get a feel for the sair/speedlots openings in PvZ as they are more flexible and overall safe.
On January 30 2017 20:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not really sure going quick 4 bases is that good anymore,there are so many ways to punish it and behind this protoss doesnt really need to go entirely all in,just with delayed third he is gonna be ok,on top of that he can double expand u cant do much about it.
What are the good ways to punish it? It is still very popular at lower levels.
Gateway first is so hard to punish them, at my level zerg just tend to make 1 sunken early game (which is bad i know... but it means that i cant run around killing drones)
Again 2 base speedzeal is hard against zergs who know proper simcities these days.
2 base dragoon heavy styled attacks? seems quite effective IMO..
To add to what indi is saying, the thing is more that when protoss opens with gate first, they manage to force so many lings out of zerg that for them to have spire in time for sairs and sim city in place for the zealot followup, they need to sacrifice their econ pretty heftily. Zerg can still take a different natural and manage to defend that+ their main - but then they completely lose map control in the mid game, and this basically allows the protoss to take another main+natural of his own. And while 4 base zerg does decently against 3 base protoss, 4 vs 4 is solidly to protoss' advantage. Essentially the way to punish this as protoss is to use your units and map presence to constantly force zerg into playing defensively and non-greedily while you get such a solid advantage entering the late game that not even the crackling swarm ultra lurker combo beats it.
Like, as a zerg, what I dislike playing against the most (if I take another natural as my second expansion) is protosses doing a 1 gate zealot pressure (where they don't send single zealots - those are easy to fend off) into corsair into a 2 base dragoon heavy attack ; but then upon forcing me to turtle quite heavily to defend, they avoid attacking, drop the goon production, take another natural and main base of their own (so we're 4-4 on bases), and then focusing entirely on stopping me from establishing a 5th while doing storm/dt drops (with sair fleet intact to hinder my map presence and drop abilities). It ends up being a long game, it's not an easy style, but good protosses who simply avoid attacking and are comfortable with fighting big army vs big army battles are imo the hardest to beat.
When zergs instead take their own second natural rather than another main natural, defending it is much easier (it's closer so lings/hydra can reinforce, and you have a ramp), and then they don't get economically disadvantaged in the same way, meaning that they can compete for map control during the mid game (this forces protoss to take their own second natural as their third base), which in turn makes it more possible to keep them on 3 gas longer, which makes the super heavy archon force come into play at a later point of the agme.
On February 14 2017 13:10 Jealous wrote: Anyone know where I can find this short YouTube video of Best running his probes away from Protoss harassment (I forget if Storm or Reaver)?
I think it was SPL vs. Pure but I'm not sure. He was at 6 o'clock and he ran his probes from his main to his third and his nat to his main really fucking fast. I think someone uploaded it as a mini-clip of its own. I couldn't find it because "best probe run" doesn't give great results.
at 11:15
This is probably the one! Thank you so much for a quick answer.
I'm making a unit test map, it's sort of working aside from getting upgrades to work.
Currently I have workers of all 3 races, I make whatever army I want, I send it to a location on the map and a computer takes control of it. However, when I lose control, the +1 attack or armor upgrades vanish... I can't seem to find any triggers on how to set the upgrade level.
On February 18 2017 08:37 Ty2 wrote: Shouldn't we avoid use of the word "you" in liquipedia? Just keep it formal and don't call the reader out by talking in the second person.
I think you're referring to me? Maybe. I don't see the need to always stay impersonal. Constructions can get boring with the constant repeating of "Zerg should do this", "The player that opened with 12 pool should do this",...
On February 18 2017 22:37 shall_burn wrote: you seems kind of alright. But there is "I prefer.... I like...." in some articles (can't provide). It really felt awkward and a bit out of place.
If people find pages like this and don't feel like fixing them, send them my way please.
If people find pages like this and don't feel like fixing them, send them my way please.
Noted. There has been an attempt to find these pages, but to no success as of yet. *** There's something that I find confusig. I'm not sure about drone or scv, but 100% sure that a probe can attack zealot, that is on hold position, and zealot won't fight back because of smaller attack range. Same with lings (on hold). But liquidpedia says that probe (scv and drone), zealot and ling all got 1 range. What am I missing? Also, another question regarding workers. It's said that they are ranged. Are they affected by highground advantage? Say, a probe is on the edge of the highground, and an scv is on the lowground. This might be important for blocking ramps with workers, as normally scvs pwn probes 1v1, but with highground advantage probe will win (won't it?).
Workers are kinda funky like that. They all have 1 range, but probes have slightly longer range than drones and drones have slightly longer range than scvs. Probes and drones can attack hold positioned zealots with impunity, scvs can not. I can't confirm this 100%, but I definitely think I've seen probes miss when attacking up a ramp.
Also, none of the workers deal damage under dark swarm. So I think they count as being ranged units (even scvs, that don't have any range at all).
On February 20 2017 22:46 Liquid`Drone wrote: Workers are kinda funky like that. They all have 1 range, but probes have slightly longer range than drones and drones have slightly longer range than scvs. Probes and drones can attack hold positioned zealots with impunity, scvs can not. I can't confirm this 100%, but I definitely think I've seen probes miss when attacking up a ramp.
Also, none of the workers deal damage under dark swarm. So I think they count as being ranged units (even scvs, that don't have any range at all).
Are you sure SCVs don't do damage under swarm? I was fairly certain they do.
Speaking of high ground mechanics, does Lurker have uphill miss chance as well?
On February 21 2017 00:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: lurkers never miss, their damage is regarded as 'entire splash' or something. (No damage reduction under swarm, either).
And yes I am certain scvs don't do damage under swarm.
The more you know! I had a hypothesis that Lurkers might miss shooting uphill because they benefit from Ranged upgrades (even though I know they work under swarm). Thanks!
I had a hypothesis that Lurkers might miss shooting uphill because they benefit from Ranged upgrades (even though I know they work under swarm). Thanks!
Sometimes one can't rely on logic purely. E.g., for quite a huge period of time I thought that zealots are medium, because you can get 4 of them in a shuttle, as well as goliaths. Guess what. Zeals are atually small, and goliaths are large. Now imagine 8 zealots drop. Or 8 DTs. Scary.
I had a hypothesis that Lurkers might miss shooting uphill because they benefit from Ranged upgrades (even though I know they work under swarm). Thanks!
Sometimes one can't rely on logic purely. E.g., for quite a huge period of time I thought that zealots are medium, because you can get 4 of them in a shuttle, as well as goliaths. Guess what. Zeals are atually small, and goliaths are large. Now imagine 8 zealots drop. Or 8 DTs. Scary.
And thanks to Liquid'Drone too
There are lots of things in SC that seems odd. But it is these oddness that make the game balanced.
I.e. why won't workers trigger mines... can imagine probes floating but scv and drones???? also imagine if vultures would trigger mines....
also imagine if lurkers cant attack under dark swarm....
On February 23 2017 05:13 HaFnium wrote: I.e. why won't workers trigger mines... can imagine probes floating but scv and drones????
It's time to think, what scvs actually are. You can heal them. And repair. And maelstorm. Lockdown too. Quite... versatile? And you can't broodling probes for some reason (really, why?), but no problem with spawning broodlings on scvs and drones
EPT
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