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I would like to highlight a point made in a post by Hatamaki: Reavers are NOT front-line troops. They cannot be the spine of your army and attempts to make them so against even mediocre opposition will fail. In head-on fights the Reavers will suffer; 3 hydras can beat them, or even 6 Zerglings. It's true that intensive micro can win small battles for you, but this is only applicable in small battles and there are a lot of counter-micro tactics the Zerg can use.
Mass Reavers
Mass Reavers: it's a classic. It has been tried countless times both the the explorers of early Starcraft theory and newbies. And it sucks. The primitive logic goes something like this: "If one Reaver is good, and two Reavers is twice as good, how about 6 Reavers? or 8?" The truth is, after 4 Reavers, extra Reavers add almost nothing. In fact, even 4 Reavers is usually not much better in a fight than 3; it's more like a precaution when one of the Reavers is destroyed, or so that you can leave 2 at home while 2 harrass.
As an ideal example of this is the game Smuft - Tsunami, LT 9 vs 12, 1.09. Smuft favors Reavers instead of Dragoons or Zealots and Tsunami thrashes him off of just one base with Hydras. The Point: Reavers don't win in stand-up fights. They require micro and support.
Besides; check out the damage Reach did with just a single Reaver.
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On October 25 2004 14:35 ShadowMaster wrote:
[...] Game Analysis: ArtToss vs. JulyZerg (Gurince), LT 9 vs 6.
[...]
Isn't JulyZerg ArtToss? He played WSL with that nick right?
And is the game Smuft - Tsunami, LT 9 vs 12, 1.09 aviable some where?
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I have the game Smuft - Tsunami but I am having real difficulties uploading it for some reason. It was played in January of 2002 and I haven't found it anywhere else.
I knew one of the players was JulyZerg and figured it was... well... the Zerg. In anycase Zerg played well.
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Bah, I remember so many times great zerg players have lost vs this.Yellow vs Nal_Ra on Gaema.I was playing some pgtour these days with random and found out it was pretty hard for me to win zvp vs a good reaver user ,while the opposite almost always ended as an easy win.You just gotta be very agressive and adaptive the whole time.I dont see the point of going sair at all if you see him making 3 hatch.Youll have 2zeals and a reaver drop early enough to get his spire if he hasnt made hidras.The problem for the zerg is to balance between making enough hidralisks and getting the spire in time(not to get killed by the first 5-6 protoss units + the reaver) with some gas left.Mass hidras is NOT a counter.It should die horribly (yellow vs nal_ra..)Directly mutalisk is not a counter ,either.A cute move that some guy did vs me was making his spire in the edge of his base and placing 1 sunken so that I couldnt target it without fist killing the sunken, but I killed it anyway.
You dont go for reaver drop vs a 2 hatch lair ,though..
I think ppl underestimate thouse builds ,because they require incredibly skilled scouting,timing and adapting to pull off.
I tried pulling off several times this build - 7p/7gate/13p ,if i see hatch before pool i can do massive damage with the first 2-3 zeals and see what hes playing for for a long time microing the zeals around in his base and can choose what to tech for - robotics for sure if hes 3 hatching.If hes going for 2 hatch lair ,making army usually works better,cause he cant have enough units to stop you and must turtle.Doesnt matter if its 2nd gate + citadel or 3 gates goons or smth.You just gotta pressure.
If he has went pool before hatch, a late 2nd gate zeals may be better than teching as well,to force him use his (not so many) larvas to make lings instead of drones.On far positions I would still go for gas ,though.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 27 2004 10:53 Falc wrote: Show nested quote +On October 25 2004 14:35 ShadowMaster wrote:
[...] Game Analysis: ArtToss vs. JulyZerg (Gurince), LT 9 vs 6.
[...]
Isn't JulyZerg ArtToss? He played WSL with that nick right? And is the game Smuft - Tsunami, LT 9 vs 12, 1.09 aviable some where?
Gurince.. Isn't that someone from T.3) -.-?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Btw with 80 supply reavers I beat 80 supply ultra ling (on a mess around test map).
Was great fun but reavers really are retarded when 20 of them are firing :[!
Lost like half ;o
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i remember i once lost my shuttle but got the reaver out clean about halfway on the ground path to some z's base
so i made 6 cannons at home and escorted it with about a gazillion goons on it's walk towards the thin red line
suffice to say mr muta got raped
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On October 27 2004 15:32 Beast_Bg wrote:
Bah, I remember so many times great zerg players have lost vs this.Yellow vs Nal_Ra on Gaema.I was playing some pgtour these days with random and found out it was pretty hard for me to win zvp vs a good reaver user ,while the opposite almost always ended as an easy win.You just gotta be very agressive and adaptive the whole time.I dont see the point of going sair at all if you see him making 3 hatch.Youll have 2zeals and a reaver drop early enough to get his spire if he hasnt made hidras.The problem for the zerg is to balance between making enough hidralisks and getting the spire in time(not to get killed by the first 5-6 protoss units + the reaver) with some gas left.Mass hidras is NOT a counter.It should die horribly (yellow vs nal_ra..)Directly mutalisk is not a counter ,either.A cute move that some guy did vs me was making his spire in the edge of his base and placing 1 sunken so that I couldnt target it without fist killing the sunken, but I killed it anyway.
You dont go for reaver drop vs a 2 hatch lair ,though..
I think ppl underestimate thouse builds ,because they require incredibly skilled scouting,timing and adapting to pull off.
I tried pulling off several times this build - 7p/7gate/13p ,if i see hatch before pool i can do massive damage with the first 2-3 zeals and see what hes playing for for a long time microing the zeals around in his base and can choose what to tech for - robotics for sure if hes 3 hatching.If hes going for 2 hatch lair ,making army usually works better,cause he cant have enough units to stop you and must turtle.Doesnt matter if its 2nd gate + citadel or 3 gates goons or smth.You just gotta pressure.
If he has went pool before hatch, a late 2nd gate zeals may be better than teching as well,to force him use his (not so many) larvas to make lings instead of drones.On far positions I would still go for gas ,though.
Thanks for an excellent constructive post. So, it sounds like you usually Zeal rush into your Reavers or Stargate, using the Zealot rush as a sort of aggressive recon? If you happen to have any replays of yours demonstrating this, it would be great.
Oh, and congratulations on your WCG success!
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This is a really GOOD post z(-_-)s
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1 reaver is plenty if you micro it right
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On October 28 2004 04:59 Casper... wrote:
1 reaver is plenty if you micro it right
Reach definitely demonstrated this 
Also, later on in the game (and often even early game), double Reaver drops are devastating and can do much more than just eliminating the drones at an expansion. With attack forces I think 2 Reavers is optimal for most damage and least overkill, while the main purpose of a third Reaver is to reduce the effects of anti-Reaver micro (ie -- assassinating a Reaver). Four Reavers are fairly common in many Reaver midgames and are the "pure" investment into a Reaver strategy. This is good because you'll have the full power of two Reavers, in two places! (I hope I didn't lose anyone with this complex mathematical reasoning). However, note that usually four Reavers TOGETHER in a combat zone do noticeably no more than two Reavers, unless the Protoss is putting an exhaustive effort into microing each one, and has them spread well.
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The Many Uses of Reavers
Reavers can serve many purposes in a PvZ outside of the first initial drop (attempt). Although one of the most difficult units to use effectively, when the Protoss is up to the task the Reaver offers a host of tactical and strategic resources.
Reaver Harrassment
This is the first thing, and often the last thing, most players think of when they see Reavers. Usually the first motion made with Reavers in a game, it has the capability to immediately shut down the Zerg economy. However, it doesn't have to be limited to early-game mineral drops and Reavers used to their full harrassment capacity can wreak havoc in a number of ways.
Drone drops are available throughout the game should the Zerg began to get lax in his defence, and once two Reavers are acquired it will take Zerg much more than a few sunken colonies to even pause the Protoss. These are especially effective against those Zerg who try to mass expand, as every new base offers the Protoss a new target.
Strategically, just the possibility of drone drops gives the Protoss an unusual maneuverability that Zerg will probably try to counter with Mutalisk and Scourge.
Surgical Strikes in the early game can be particularly effective, as mentioned by Beast: with a Reaver and two Zealots or, even better, a pair of Reavers, Protoss can destroy early Spires in construction before the Zerg can get an airforce in operation.
Reaver Support
With speedy shuttles (and sometimes even the slow brand) Reavers can quickly be brought to any battlefront, immediately providing a massive force in the Protoss's favor. In this capacity they are perhaps the fastest anti-ground unit in the game and are useful for anti-harrassment from ground threats.
Reaver Defense
One of the most vital performances of the Reaver in the early game of Reaver/Goon and Reaver/Corsair strategies is that of key defender. Crucial to securing the first expansion, a well-controlled Reaver means the difference between victory and immediate loss.
The Reaver Push
Finally, the aspect of the Reaver that can prove most dangerous to the Zerg: the Reaver Push. If the Zerg leaves the Protoss to his own methods too long, he will quickly find himself dealing with a very serious threat. Using the Reaver's superior range the Protoss will launch an attack on the front door of the Zerg position. The high damage of the Reavers causes the push to progress more quickly than most Tank pushes while the nearby Shuttle provides vastly superior maneuverability. Supported by Corsairs, Dragoons, and occasionally even Zealots, the possibility of this advance keeps Zerg in check and can severely punish them if they get too greedy or too hasty.
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On October 27 2004 10:18 ShadowMaster wrote: I would like to highlight a point made in a post by Hatamaki: Reavers are NOT front-line troops. They cannot be the spine of your army and attempts to make them so against even mediocre opposition will fail. In head-on fights the Reavers will suffer; 3 hydras can beat them, or even 6 Zerglings. It's true that intensive micro can win small battles for you, but this is only applicable in small battles and there are a lot of counter-micro tactics the Zerg can use. Mass ReaversMass Reavers: it's a classic. It has been tried countless times both the the explorers of early Starcraft theory and newbies. And it sucks. The primitive logic goes something like this: "If one Reaver is good, and two Reavers is twice as good, how about 6 Reavers? or 8?" The truth is, after 4 Reavers, extra Reavers add almost nothing. In fact, even 4 Reavers is usually not much better in a fight than 3; it's more like a precaution when one of the Reavers is destroyed, or so that you can leave 2 at home while 2 harrass. As an ideal example of this is the game Smuft - Tsunami, LT 9 vs 12, 1.09. Smuft favors Reavers instead of Dragoons or Zealots and Tsunami thrashes him off of just one base with Hydras. The Point: Reavers don't win in stand-up fights. They require micro and support. Besides; check out the damage Reach did with just a single Reaver.
I updated the post with a link to the Smuft - Tsunami replay.
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Game Analysis: Froz(Hero[s.R]) vs Veg (Dante1), LT 12 vs 6, 2003.
Category: Countering Pure Spire
Replay: Hero[s.R] vs Dante1
Froz opens with a 1-gate tech to Stargate while Veg goes 9-pool speedlings to 1-base Mutas and 3rd hatch exp. Froz opens with a Scout instead of Sair and finds the Spire. He plays carefully, immediately making a Forge and cannons before making a Reaver. He maintains Corsair production all the while and puts down a second gateway, pumping Dragoons. Once the Reaver finishes he doesn't bother trying any harrassment; he immediately pushes on the entrance at the Zerg natural. Zerg had a few hydras and moves in with his Muta/Ling force but the mutas and Scourge only succeed in destroying a Corsair and the shuttle. By the time Veg manages to take out the Reaver, all of his Zerglings and sunks are gone and it's Hydra vs. Dragoon and scout. Froz's reinforcements arrive and seal the deal.
Constant Corsairs > Pure Spire.
Nazgul, Rekrul, Liquid`Drone and a posse of others were observing this game. I wonder if they remember it 
EDIT: Got the upload working.
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Great job, guys. I think this has been a very successful thread. It has become clear that Hydra/Muta is without a doubt the Zerg's best counter to Reaver strategies. Pure Muta should usually get crushed by the constant production of 1-Stargate Corsairs with Dragoons, and pure Hydra in the early game usually gives Protoss superior maneuverability and no out-of-the-ordinary threats, as long as he remembers to switch to Templar tech before the Hydras grow too much, or when the Zerg starts the Muts.
So, as the concluding factor on whether Corsair to Reaver is a sound strategy suitable to be a mainstay in the Protoss repertoire, let's examine the Hydra/Spire buildup. Please post replays and experience for both sides of the matchup, and thanks for those good posts we have already seen on this subject.
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There was some great Vod featuring Nal_ra vs some z at Enter the dragon ,where Nal_ra went for robo before fighting unit, then attacked with 2z+g and forced the z to cancel his spire and when he finally had it ,Ra had the island + 6-7 sairs off 2 stargates and it was obviously over.
Of course it is a sound strategy.It requires a lot of practice to perfect ,though and you cant just start the game ,knowing what youre going to do ,no matter what happens..Its a very adaptive strategy and thus - pretty hard to pull off.And I'd say that robo first may be better stargate vs most of the z builds.
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First, ShadowMaster, I must congratulate you on the success of this thread and its consistency. Second, I must say that I am not a Protoss player, but after much evaluation of replays and reading of this thread, I thought I would give the Sair + Reaver strategy a try. After four games of putting it to use, I ended with 2-2. Emphasizing much of the conclusions we have already came to, I feel I must add my two cents:
- [++] Sair + Reaver is especially effective against Zerg who go Lurker/Ling or Hydra, and at the far positions. In one game I played, where I was 12:00 and my Zerg enemy 6:00, I was able to effectively kill 5 Overlords with only two Sairs, severely halting his unit production and hurting his economy. He had taken his natural, and taking advantage of my harassment early-on, I had two Zealots and a Reaver in a Shuttle back home. (I must note that in order for this strategy to be as effective as it was for me, the player must be very skilled in multi-tasking and again, as already stated, laziness is not an option). In an "unsuccessful" raid on his natural (where Corsairs provided distraction), I lost a zelaot and he managed to get his Drones out of harm's way. However, in smart thinking I quickly did a roud-about, knowing he would brings his Drones vainly back, dropped again and my Reaver managed to attain 23 kills! Though I left two Zealots and a Corsair less, my Reaver was unscathed. By the time I returned back home I had expanded and had a small army of Zealots, Goon, and some ob, plus another Reaver. My enemy then chose to expand again at his mineral-only, which he protected with some Lurker/Ling/Hydra. Seeing that he was over-extending his units, and because manueverability with my Reavers was so easy now, I attacked his mineral-only with my rag-tag army and simultaneously dropped my two Reavers at his natural, bringing that Reaver's kill count to 30+!. He did not have enough units to protect both positions, and I was rewarded with a flat "GG." Overall, I was overjoyed at the success of the strategy and saw how it is by far easily superior to Zerg choosing Lurker/Ling or Hydra as their modus operandi.
- [--] Mutalisk Rush and close positions is especially dangerous to Corsair + Reaver. In the second game I played, where I was 12:00 and my Zerg enemy 3:00, my Corsairs were useless as harassment against him. He had a colony at his main, around which his Overlords were safely shepherded, and he quickly dispatched of my Sairs with some scourge, which were quickly followed by a group of Mutalisks who made quick mince-meat of my main. Of course, I made some mistakes, mistakes that I am sure ShadowMaster covered -- such as being too hatsy and not setting up cannons effectively. However, the close positions, the Zerg's choice of Spiretech, and his overall smart gameplay, took the day. I did not attempt this strategy on any other maps. [Note: In both of the games I lost, the Zerg went Spire tech and was able to dispatch my Sair easily with scourge -- furthermore, each one was at close positions: 12/3, 9/6.]
Although I am not a Protoss user, and probably less-skilled than many players here (my APM ranges between 115-130; I see that sadly, many people think this a barometer of "skill" so I use it now, albeit hesitantly), I feel that I had both success and failure with the Sair + Reaver strategy and I almost immediately saw its advantages and disadvantages in real-time.
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On October 29 2004 18:46 ShadowMaster wrote: Game Analysis: Froz(Hero[s.R]) vs Veg (Dante1), LT 12 vs 6, 2003. Category: Countering Pure Spire Replay: Hero[s.R] vs Dante1Froz opens with a 1-gate tech to Stargate while Veg goes 9-pool speedlings to 1-base Mutas and 3rd hatch exp. Froz opens with a Scout instead of Sair and finds the Spire. He plays carefully, immediately making a Forge and cannons before making a Reaver. He maintains Corsair production all the while and puts down a second gateway, pumping Dragoons. Once the Reaver finishes he doesn't bother trying any harrassment; he immediately pushes on the entrance at the Zerg natural. Zerg had a few hydras and moves in with his Muta/Ling force but the mutas and Scourge only succeed in destroying a Corsair and the shuttle. By the time Veg manages to take out the Reaver, all of his Zerglings and sunks are gone and it's Hydra vs. Dragoon and scout. Froz's reinforcements arrive and seal the deal. Constant Corsairs > Pure Spire.Nazgul, Rekrul, Liquid`Drone and a posse of others were observing this game. I wonder if they remember it EDIT: Got the upload working.
Rofl this is the game i tried to embarrass veg by beating him without my keyboard
He's gotten a lot better since then though =[
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.windweaverskites.com/images/rvrharrass.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.windweaverskites.com/images/rvrsupport.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.windweaverskites.com/images/rvrdefense.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.windweaverskites.com/images/rvrpush.gif)
