|
Related:
Part 2: PvZ: Reaver Midgames
PvZ: The Main-Line
ZvP Reavers
Protoss BOs and Strategies: PvZ Land
The Many Uses of Reavers
An examination of the early game of PvZ Strategies incorporating Reavers, particularly Corsairs + Reaver to Reaver + Goon.
In a recent thread I started to look at the PvZ strategy of going Corsair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon. As many of you have surely noticed, Reavers are a relatively rare sight in progaming PvZs. While there are definite reasons for this beyond any strategic "fashions", the objective of this thread is to give this strategy the further examination that I feel it deserves.
Why?
Protoss are currently considered something of an underdog in the Starcraft scene -- and this is after making a big rise in the last year or two! Many of the top gamers have been reduced to playing crazy "cheese" strategies to catch their opponents off guard and play for a win. Further more, the number of Protoss top gamers is traditionally much fewer than the Terran and Zerg gamers. Even those just-for-fun gamers on a WGT level have noticed the lower number of good Toss players. It should be obvious that the Protoss game is somewhat lost; it needs a rehaul, to find itself again.
This strategy has many virtues, a few of which will be listed here and hopefully more to be found shortly as part of this thread.
- Psychological. Although this is only a temporary sort of advantage -- and less applicable at the pro level -- this strategy offers a long-term change of pace. All of the favorite Zerg strategies seem ineffective against Reaver/Goon. Mass hydras don't specifically counter anything; Ultra/Ling, the favorite finishing blow of Zergs these days, is useless. And Lurker containment simply doesn't exist; stubborn Zergs who are stuck on their lurkers will quickly find themselves totally run over.
- Physical. Because of the Reaver element in this strategy, players will find that the game immediately takes on a micro-based tendency. Micro can quickly mean the difference between victory and defeat as the all the play for both players revolves around those Reavers. This may be good or bad depending on your personal style.
- Practical. Those cheese strategies that so many are trying to use these days tend to have the effect of producing a do-or-die game; hardly better than gambling, these strategies are not particularly reliable. Reaver + Goon offers a much more solid game plan that will probably still take the Zerg out of his game.
Why Not?
Why is it that we don't see this strategy used at the top level? On a whole, I feel it is largely because the strategy has been overlooked or they just haven't made it this far. There are a few things to worry about, though.
- Tactical problems. This strategy can be tough for a Protoss to pull off and disaster can occur quickly. Losing all your Reavers to just a few scourge is disheartening for anyone. This strategy is not for the faint of heart.
- Physical Considerations. It is possible that in many games the Protoss will end up putting in a lot more effort than the Zerg without being able to clearly see the benefits. The Protoss player cannot afford to be lazy with this strategy.
- Strategic Considerations. There are certain strategic considerations that must be taken into account, most notably dealing with the Zerg Mutalisks and Scourge. It is these considerations that the this thread aims to examine, and that I hope the readers will take the effort to overcome in their games.
Goals
I hope for two things to be accomplished by this thread.
1) Evaluation of whether or not this strategy is suitable for a pro level. Obviously, we can't find this out for a surety due to our weaker skill, but we can do our best.
2) Refinement of this strategy to be useful for those who are NOT pro-level.
Down to Business:
So, that's the theory. How does it hold up against different situations?
The Standard: Mass Hydras. Mass hydras has always been and probably will always be the favorite Zerg strategy, when they feel they can get away with it. However, it is by no means an obvious counter to Reaver + Goon. True, a few Hydras can demolish Reavers, but Reavers never were designed for stand-up fights. They serve two rolls: support and harrassment. This is something that must be tested and experimented with, as there are a lot of variables.
For more on mass-hydra , refer to this post.
Counters: Because mass-hydra is not itself a direct counter to Reaver-Goon until late in the game, you don't need to change strategies. The counter is to out-micro and out-maneuver them.
The Sharp: Spire Tech. This is definitely dangerous to the Protoss, as both Mutalisk and Scourge can ruin pure Reaver ideas and Dragoons suffer vs. MutaLing. However, this is actually not very good for the Zerg is the Protoss isn't out-microed. First of all, using the Corsairs + Reaver to Reaver + Goon path means that Protoss should not be surprised early on by Spire, and will have time to prepare. Secondly, the timely switch to Templar from Reavers is absolutely required in every situation with this strategy and may provide a respite against Spire Tech. But even before Templar are needed, Protoss can crush Zerg pure-Spire strategies by maintaining Corsair production. The only time pure-Spire might be genuinely worriesome to the Protoss is in near positions like 9 vs 6 on LT, when Zerg can almost simultaneously defend his base while pressuring Protoss.
The Critical: Spire/Hydra This is without a doubt the best strategy for Zerg against Stargate to Reaver in normal situations. The idea is to maximize flexibility by keeping Hydras as a strike force and anti-harrassment while keeping Mutas and Scourge to harrass and hunt shuttles.
Miscellany: What other options are there for the Zerg player? Post your thoughts.
[UPDATE]: Established: Conclusions and Theory
These are things that are evident either from practice or simple common-sense, or seem to have been established in the progress of this thread, as well as things that need to be examined in particular. If you disagree, say why and, if possible, post examples. Below they are marked whether they seem to favor [++] the strategy or [--]oppose it.
- [--]Mass Reavers is not an option. Don't even think about it. For a demonstration, check this.
- [--]Spire/Hydra Zerg is the most dangerous for the Protoss.
- [--]Lazy Protoss will die. This is a relatively high-energy strategy.
- [++]Pure Spire is not good. Pure Spire allows Protoss steadily produce Corsairs and Dragoons to go along with his Reavers, usually over powering Zerg once he has 5-6 Corsairs: with Muta/Ling/Scourge the Zerg does not have the power to stop a Reaver push. See this game.
- [++]Hydratech is not convincing as a strategy in the early game and might even be favorable to Protoss, but in the least offers chances to both sides.
- [++]Colonies seem to be required if the Zerg wants to ease the harrassment pressure, as most units may be out-maneuvered or spread too thin. Can Spire-Tech Zerg's safely forego investing in colonies?
- [++]Sauron Style Zerg (no colonies all game) without much Spire Tech is extremely risky for the Zerg player as he is especially vulnerable to harrassment.
- [++]The Zerg must be unusually conservative.Zerg trying to go mass expansions will have a hard time, as this strategy affords the Protoss a MUCH greater than usual degree of maneuverability.
[Update]Resources:
See what Beast says about this strategy in this post.
What Protoss need to worry about: how to counter Reaver Sair to Goon.
NonY's post on the different nature of this type of game.
What not to do with Reavers.
So, post your thoughts and practice here. I will update with links to informative replays, posts, and articles when possible.
|
All of the favorite Zerg strategies are ineffective against Reaver/Goon. Mass hydras don't counter anything; Ultra/Ling, the favorite finishing blow of Zergs these days, is useless. And Lurker containment simply doesn't exist; stubborn Zergs who are stuck on their lurkers will quickly find themselves totally run over.
- hydras rape it. ultraling rapes it. it does beat lurkers though. 1 for 3; you should play baseball. psst mutaling rapes it too.
Because of the Reaver element in this strategy, players will find that the game immediately takes on a micro-based tendency. Micro can quickly mean the difference between victory and defeat as the all the play for both players revolves around those Reavers. This may be good or bad depending on your personal style.
- blah blah blah
Those cheese strategies that so many are trying to use these days tend to have the effect of producing a do-or-die game; hardly better than gambling, these strategies are not particularly reliable. Reaver + Goon offers a much more solid game plan that will probably still take the Zerg out of his game.
- no
GOOD EFFORT OK I LIKE HOW YOUR POST LOOKS
|
The ONLY thing reaver sair goon is good against is a 1 base zerg. thats it
|
Fisheye is pretty good with goon reaver vs zerg 
|
Well, he did structure the post beautifully
as a zerg player i hate playing against reavers, but they arent hard to counter, and if the protoss' multitasking isn't very good, it is an automatic gg
[edit]:missed a "u"
|
First off, thanks for the quick replies. The interest is great.
"Only good vs. one-base Zergs" and "Mass Hydras rapes it" are just what I want to hear -- but a little more elaboration please Replays that demonstrate these statements, or further explanation.
Man, for all I said in the thread header, there sure is a lot I didn't say...
|
Reaver goon sair is simply DOMINATED by hydra muta. Mass muta also dominates it. 3 hatch hydra/ling counters it well, but toss needs to expo relatively fast and turtle+mass afterwards.
If the zerg goes 1 base OR expands really late to a non gas expo, the strat can work. But if zerg has 2 gases then toss shouldnt be able to win.
|
Corsair/reaver to reaver/goon is only good for early game. I'm gonna have to disagree with BigBalls and say that it's a valid strategy against zergs who take their naturals on lost temple. However, you have to put the zerg on the defensive from the start with corsair harrass, to reaver drop harrass.. and finally you'll have the opportunity to make the only attack that can win the game- setting up the goons and reavers properly right outside of the natural so that the zerg is pinned in. If you fuck up the handling of the game, then you're going to miss the opportunity to make that attack, and you'll have to use the goons/reavers on defense to take your nat and switch to high temps.
The other situation is where the Protoss early expands, and the zerg counters by expanding twice. The toss can go corsair/reavers safely with the economy of two bases, and then use the mobility of a corsair/reaver army to pick off the spread-out zerg. These games are pretty risky, although I've seen a lot of Korean Protoss do this.
Casper is pretty much right if you think of going goon/reaver/corsair for the entire game under any circumstances. However, in a lot of cases, you can finish a game before the zerg "goes" anything.. and if you don't finish it, you come out with an advantage + the technology of robotics/stargate. Then you switch to templar tech accordingly.
If you think of just having 1 shuttle w/reavers and 1 or 2 scouting corsairs, then well controlled reavers/corsairs have very effective places against any zerg strategy
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
16987 Posts
I always thought with good enough micro Mutalisk/Few Scourge would counter Corsairs easily...
Shadow Master, you have brilliant formatting. Consider a job designing web pages ^_^'
|
Yes, spire tech is definitely the critical line: it is what will decide whether this strategy is worthwhile or not. I think the question of whether the Corsairs can be countered or not is a little off-the-mark, though. There what will you counter? They aren't designed to cripple the Zerg or even to do much damage. Here are a few of their uses that I'll copy from another post:
The Power of Corsairs
1) Emergency damage soaks when things started getting hot for a Reaver Drop: the corsairs
would intercept the incoming hydralisks and distract them, giving the Shuttle time to get
away.
2) Constant full-map scouting. There were no secrets for the Protoss -- and every experienced
Toss player knows how much this means in a PvZ game.
3) As annoying as can be for the Zerg. I mean, really, how would you feel if someone was
constantly poking you in the eye? Distracting, no?
True, having anti-Corsair hunts will alter this -- but not eliminate it. Good micro should be able to preserve the Corsairs.
|
is awesome32274 Posts
The strat is very map dependant. I think of reaver as an option only when i had an early advantage/preassure in the game. Maybe its my reaver skills but i feel less protected with reaver than with temps. Plus while microing reaver and shuttle reaver auto target and hydra not a zone as storm does....so if he sends in a cuople o flings the reaver will hit them 1st and they hydras will get free shots. Same if he sends an hyrda forward and splash doesnt work for you.
but yeah, its hell of a help to take down the sunken line in fornt of a zerg expansion.
|
you die to muta/hydra, by the time you have enough sairs he has the map and the game is over
|
16987 Posts
On October 24 2004 18:35 ShadowMaster wrote:
Yes, spire tech is definitely the critical line: it is what will decide whether this strategy is worthwhile or not. I think the question of whether the Corsairs can be countered or not is a little off-the-mark, though. There what will you counter? They aren't designed to cripple the Zerg or even to do much damage. Here are a few of their uses that I'll copy from another post:
The Power of Corsairs
1) Emergency damage soaks when things started getting hot for a Reaver Drop: the corsairs
would intercept the incoming hydralisks and distract them, giving the Shuttle time to get
away.
2) Constant full-map scouting. There were no secrets for the Protoss -- and every experienced
Toss player knows how much this means in a PvZ game.
3) As annoying as can be for the Zerg. I mean, really, how would you feel if someone was
constantly poking you in the eye? Distracting, no?
True, having anti-Corsair hunts will alter this -- but not eliminate it. Good micro should be able to preserve the Corsairs.
1) Expensive units whore only function is to soak damage and easily countered? If I had a few Scourge laying around, I'd target a Shuttle over Corsairs, regardless of whether I think there are units in them or not.
2) Agreed, though what are you going to do, patrol them over the map?
3) I never really found Corsairs to be that annoying... I just set a Spore Colony over each expansion, and I find that Protoss players never really bother to ever research Disruption Web... I don't know, maybe it's the newbie level I'm playing at -_-p
|
This_is_not_a_smurf, in the example I was referring to with the original notes, it was all about two corsairs -- the only two that were made in the game. As far as Protoss units go, I don't think Corsairs are generally considered overly expensive; sure, the 150 gas Stargate + 100 gas Corsair could be usefully spent elsewhere, but countless Korean gosus seem to think that the Corsair is worth it, even just as a scout. I think that that one extra Corsair might be worth it for how much more dangerous it makes your overlord-hunting/harrassment expeditions.
Yes, shuttles are definitely higher priority targets than Corsairs. But if you check the replay I was referring to, you'll see what I mean. Again, Spiretech is a whole different game, but against Hydras, there are several AI abuse type things you can pull that give you that extra second you might need. Just an idea, though.
You've seen the way Yellow and other Zergs like to send out ovies all over the map as soon as they have the speed upgrade, surrounding the enemy base and so scanning for any shuttles or probes leaving. With just two Corsairs, this is suddenly much more difficult for the Zerg. It's like an anti-hack
The topic of whether the Corsair is worth it early game is definitely debatable, but by that very fact I think their value is apparent.
|
isn't reaver too slow,and goons are slow too, what if they go for early muta rush? no ht or archon?and do u go for reaver first? or not,and isn't reaver damages ur own units too? then speed lings will own
|
As has been mentioned, Spire is definitely the most dangerous way Zerg can go. That's one reason you go Corsair + Reaver first: not because the Corsairs would counter the Muts, which they wouldn't, but so you can see it coming and prepare. To see exactly what I'm talking about, check here under Nucleus Strategies and follow the links. And no, Reavers do not splash your own units.
|
you need 2 gas, you need to fast expand then go reaver / sair
|
if the zerg is going muta you should give up on attacking and just expo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
