PvZ: Reavers + Sair | Goon - Page 2

On October 24 2004 17:41 BigBalls wrote:
The ONLY thing reaver sair goon is good against is a 1 base zerg. thats it

On October 25 2004 03:41 LastWish wrote:
If u have corsairs quite early u can slow down zerg greatly, since he must cut down on drone production and must go eigher spores or den. I personally think that if u decide for spores, you waste 125(50 for drone) for evolution chamber, if u build 2 spores another 175*2=350 minerals. Otherwise u force zerg into using hydras early, being low on economy. Now u can try to use revear, i often see it with like 1:1 zeal,goon ,1 shuttle with revears, producing only goons from this moment.
Since perfect timing and micro is needed not many players use it.
Fisheye uses it on LT along with dropping 2 goons on expand cliff first, this way zerg must invest to another 1-2 sunken colonies to protect the cliff and withdraw drones till it's safe. Therefore on LT this strategy is quite safer i think.

On October 25 2004 10:56 NonY wrote:
I feel like your analysis is naturally leading into an invalid direction. Allow me to explain...

Many of PvZ problems stem from the fact that Zerg is fast and versatile, and can switch units, strategy, and style very quickly. The Protoss is often left guessing what units to build and what strategy to apply to a particular game. For example, if a Protoss rushes with zealots, but can't win the game instantly, then the Zerg can effectively get lurkers, mutas, upgraded hydras, lings, or a combo of these without the Protoss knowing exactly what the Zerg is doing. So the Protoss has to prepare for all of it, generally getting storm and cannons, then reacting more specifically once the Zerg is found out.

What is the solution to this? The Protoss can make moves to force the Zerg into doing something. Corsair/goon/reaver forces a reaction out of a Zerg, which you can see in real-time. You can see what units are hatching out of the eggs, what buildings are being built, and how his current army is being allocated. Thus, in a general sense, you can counter his strategy instantly, rather than as a reaction, and see the game several moves ahead.

By playing this way, you never expect one particular move to win the game. Instead, you just expect for your moves to put you a step ahead. It could be that you win on your first advantageous move, and it could be that it takes 40 minutes. To me, this is the "correct" way to play PvZ, given all the nuances and unique qualities of the matchup.

So, if I were to go corsair -> goon/reaver, it would be so that I can possibly kill a few overlords, harrass with reaver drop, safely establish my natural, and see what my opponent is doing the entire time. In this way, I'm controlling the flow of the game. I can decide if it's a good idea to try for a "finishing blow" by actually taking my utility army of corsair/goon/reaver, and turning it into a real attacking army. Otherwise, the utility army makes a great defensive army, and allows for me to get a real attacking army (templars) while maintaining that utility.

On October 24 2004 22:10 ShadowMaster wrote:
This_is_not_a_smurf, in the example I was referring to with the original notes, it was all about two corsairs -- the only two that were made in the game. As far as Protoss units go, I don't think Corsairs are generally considered overly expensive; sure, the 150 gas Stargate + 100 gas Corsair could be usefully spent elsewhere, but countless Korean gosus seem to think that the Corsair is worth it, even just as a scout. I think that that one extra Corsair might be worth it for how much more dangerous it makes your overlord-hunting/harrassment expeditions.
Yes, shuttles are definitely higher priority targets than Corsairs. But if you check the replay I was referring to, you'll see what I mean. Again, Spiretech is a whole different game, but against Hydras, there are several AI abuse type things you can pull that give you that extra second you might need. Just an idea, though.
You've seen the way Yellow and other Zergs like to send out ovies all over the map as soon as they have the speed upgrade, surrounding the enemy base and so scanning for any shuttles or probes leaving. With just two Corsairs, this is suddenly much more difficult for the Zerg. It's like an anti-hack
The topic of whether the Corsair is worth it early game is definitely debatable, but by that very fact I think their value is apparent.

On October 26 2004 15:27 S(O)ME(O)NE wrote:
i think i would rather make zealots than goons speedy zealots. It would probably be great on a map where there is a freebee expand like biofrost. You could just turtle up and go out with reavers and millions of zealots. and if u have an citadel its not so bad to do tech switch. A siar would do great to socut also.