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I normally just archon anyways. Even if I scout hydra  ~ They are good for offense and even if you do perfect storms on their army, they will still have sunks that stop you from advancing. Arch is safer + it looks cool. And, your 2 temps woudl normally already be on the way.
And casper, PvZ isn't nearly as impossible as you make it sound. If that happens and you try to win by pure macro alone ofcourse you are going to lose. You need to harass because it is an uphill battle
And it doesn't matter if YOU are maxed out, the Z can also be maxed out. And if his econ is way stronger than yours, good chance your fucked.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 20:43 MiniRoman wrote: I normally just archon anyways. Even if I scout hydra ~ They are good for offense and even if you do perfect storms on their army, they will still have sunks that stop you from advancing. Arch is safer + it looks cool. And, your 2 temps woudl normally already be on the way. And casper, PvZ isn't nearly as impossible as you make it sound. If that happens and you try to win by pure macro alone ofcourse you are going to lose. You need to harass because it is an uphill battle And it doesn't matter if YOU are maxed out, the Z can also be maxed out. And if his econ is way stronger than yours, good chance your fucked.
Well, if they lurker yeah - then I archon too as they will mostly be lurker ling - archon is really great vs that and you really don't need storm as much as you need the robo quickly.
However, the DT+HT is so you can expand vs a zerg going for hydras specifically, (not any other den tech to start with) you will want to play defensively (not because you can't win offensively, but because that is playing the zerg player right into his/her hands if they are committing to rushing). In that situation HT+DT and faster storm helps more than an archon. However, you will almost never know tech for sure until you are ready to build your archon so I end up making archon in almost all of my PvZ's (I, like you, feel it's a really nice unit, and it's great for sneaking together with zealots)
To sum it up, vs a zerg going hydra you don't want to play offense but rather defense and then just break and kill as there will be a period during which the zerg is rather weak following after the hydra opening (provided it's the typical attack hydra build). Since you won't want to attack until you have a solid eco and production either way, the archon doesn't help as much as storm dt +_+
Mmm it's 6 am and I find myself unable to form coherent sentances
I'll call it a day now, nite.
Actually no I'll pull an allnighter instead 
Need to change sleeping schedule.
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wow that guy who trained u must've been a nice guy 
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 23:00 juSblazin wrote: wow that guy who trained u must've been a nice guy
Ya, one of the nicest people I've ever met :O
I was fortunate enough to meet like four 1400-1600 gamei people just after starting and they all were INSANELY nice :O
Like first person I met after I started playing BW was this 32 year old 1400 gamei korean guy :O He helped me a lot, like he taught me how I should macro PvT and stuff.
Good 'ol days ~~
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ITs all about scouting and it will always be ! Scout the P (I ZERG) with overlords allt he time harrass like hell!! I do drop on teching tosses I masses Ling Lurker Hydra on offensive ones.
I USE alot of Zerglings on fast exping (I mean pylon.nexus forge 3 cannon gate) Mutta on defensive ones (like have shit load of units but ony stands and get expos)
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what to do if the zerg has made it to like 3-4 gas and hass upgraded crackling/ultras. any conters to this?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 01 2004 08:36 baelrog wrote:
what to do if the zerg has made it to like 3-4 gas and hass upgraded crackling/ultras. any conters to this?
DT archon zealot is what you should be making once he starts utilizing his hive tech to make ult/ling.
Also shield grades become important at this stage.
Sair + DT (like 2 stargates) can be great, especially if you want to secure another main, throwing in a corsair or two can also be good, if you have the gas to spare, as it will be of some annoyance to the zerg as it chases overlords out of your way thus giving your dt's free kills (like it will reposition ols positioned in defensive places, and while zerg will certainly move it, he wont always notice this as there is plenty of 'under attack' noices and blinks going on).
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On August 31 2004 04:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Apparently my id is PlayGrrrr... then.
Intotherain would have been a better example though.
Everyone is just insanely whiney about pvz because they have no timing.
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heres some tips that helped me. note that any of these could be changed depending on what you scout.
1. I 2 gate 90% in pvz. the only time i don't 2 gate is 9 position vs 3 position, where instead i do sair into either citadel or robo. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE your zealot micro, it's very important, the first zealot that gets there should try to harass drones, either that or attack a sunken colony that's building, then when you have 3 zealots you can engage his first 8-10 zerglings with proper micro. proper micro = getting into the most advantageous position with your zealots.
a good trick is to just turn around and run from lings, get them to run in a line towards you, then quickly turn around and fight with your zealots IN LINE FORMATON (so they can all attack together). also using the ramps/minerals/buildings/whatever you can in order to gain good position on the zerglings. avoid getting surrounded (just keep running backwards when you need to) also of course pull back the ones that are gonna die and bring them quickly back into the battle once the zerglings stop targetting him. if your zealots are losing pull them back and wait for the next 2, then fight. really the best way to know how to fight is just to play hundreds and hundreds of pvzs, so you have experience and you know when to engage zerglings and when to wait for more zealots to get there.
here is what i think is the best build order for 2 gate zealot rush.
9 pylon, 9 gate, 10 gate, 1 more probe up to 11. then 1 zealot when first gateway is done, then another pylon. when your first zealot is done your other gateway should also be done, so you make 2 more zealots bringing you up to 17/17 with a pylon more than halfway done. right when pylon is done make 1 more probe (only 1) bringing you up to 18/25, then 2 more zealots brings you to 22/25. make another pylon now. after this it depends on how well your zealots are fighting, if they're losing and he has sunks completed, make gas now and start pumping more probes. if they're doing really well, don't stop making them from both gateways (with proper pylons)
also make sure you make everything right when you have the minerals. if you make your pylon on 150 minerals instead of 100 minerals it's gonna hurt you a lot. really this makes a big difference.
it's hard to do the build perfectly while microing zealots perfectly, but you just need to practice and you'll get better with each game. i hope this helped a little.
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K, thanks 
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Sweden33719 Posts
Btw, not sure if I mentioned this but, generally, 1 sunken/4 zealots. So if you have 12 zealots and see 3 sunkens you oftenwise can attack, this of course depends on time in game and how many zerglings he has, are they speed graded etc.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 02 2004 11:32 z7-TranCe wrote: Show nested quote +On August 31 2004 04:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Apparently my id is PlayGrrrr... then.
Intotherain would have been a better example though.
Everyone is just insanely whiney about pvz because they have no timing.
Main Entry: com·pla·cent
Pronunciation: k&m-'plA-s&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin complacent-, complacens, present participle of complacEre to please greatly, from com- + placEre to please -- more at PLEASE
1 : SELF-SATISFIED
2 : COMPLAISANT 1
3 : UNCONCERNED
- com·pla·cent·ly adverb
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=complacent
? I'm sure it's hillarious I'm just not sure what complacent means -.-
Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard.. I just feel the same as when I lose any other matchup (used to be like 'okay how can I improve, lately I've been more like 'fucking hell I suck/I hate my opponent and want him/her dead this instance , need to get back to humble--).
Bleh ;(
I write too much!
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High templar always good bet.
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On September 02 2004 15:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard..
Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 02 2004 18:43 Pomozite wrote: Show nested quote +On September 02 2004 15:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard.. Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that.
PvZ at really high levels is hard on temple.
PvZ at most peoples level is not imbalanced at all -.-;;
What you described is caused by errors on the protoss part.. Fucking up your timing or the like. Basically, when you are being lurk contained you must know WHEN zergs are prone to start their mass expanding, as that is when you have a clear window, you must have as great a force in time for that window as possible, that is when you make or break PvZ!
Unless you are intotherain you have to be breaking out around the time that the zerg is gaining expansions.
Sunkens are defeatable by heavy goon + upgrades (though you do not really want to go head on, you just want to disrupt and gain equal economy so you can do something like carriers or reavers or some higher tecH), also I long had immense troubles with just that because of me not taking enough expansions because I wasn't used to that kind of turtle.
Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.-
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The facial expression suited my thoughts on your particular opinion.Has nothing to do with 'Complacent' ;p.
I just think that was a very unexperienced/uneducated opinion,now if only i cared enough to debate it.
shrug
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On September 02 2004 18:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.-
I can see that in replay, but it is hard to know that in game. I don't thing ballance is obvious only at high levels. Sometimes zerg wastes many units, but still wins. Zerg can make comeback with good micro, but for toss one mistake is lose. That's why 9/10 rush is good, one mistake is deadly for zerg too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 02 2004 19:36 z7-TranCe wrote:
The facial expression suited my thoughts on your particular opinion.Has nothing to do with 'Complacent' ;p.
I just think that was a very unexperienced/uneducated opinion,now if only i cared enough to debate it.
shrug
Well I never said I am at a really high level of play (where I admit PvZ on temple is not perfectly balanced) The person I was replying to said "If you don't have trouble with PvZ on temple your id is either PlayGrrr or you are getting lucky".
Well, I don't have any problems with PvZ on temple (my level of play) hence, I must be playgrrr
If someone like you or nazgul complains it's understandable as you would be playing much much better zergs, which is when imbalance comes into play.
Everyone here is just soooooooooooooooo whiney about PvZ it's ridiculous, and it's all because they have no clue as to how to play it for the most part (not talking about you here, as I think your PvZ is really good from what I've seen and you might have reason to think PvZ is imbalanced, whereas most people here do not play with progamers or people close to progamer level, hence imbalance doesn't affect them).
And the only real imbalance there is (well most of it!), is position dependant +_+
But please do debate it as I know you are a very good player (I'll make Phi refuse you sex if you dont -______-!)
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FrozenArbiter, can you upload somewhere you pvz replays. I would really like to see how you play that matchup.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I don't have too many good recent replays (well WCG maps excluded) :O
I guess I could sift through a few of my neogamei games -.- I'm not amazing by any counts but PvZ is my best matchup and for my level of play it's not bad.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.emotioneric.com/complacent.jpg)
