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JoeSaddles
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States344 Posts
September 03 2004 02:58 GMT
#61
i have some decent pvz reps showing good zealot micro vs players like h_paul_wii, rs.day[9], satanik[pg], and a lot more. email me at joesaddles@yahoo.com if you want them or msg fk.saddles on europe
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/SaddleS.html
Louder
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States2276 Posts
September 03 2004 05:13 GMT
#62
pvz is all about hard counters and not overcountering. toss needs to hard counter whatever zerg is doing to get a strong advantage, or to make some strong offensive move and pray zerg isn't prepared for it. the problem is you typically have to do this blindly and on a map like temple, where zerg gets 2 free gas, you can't really afford to guess wrong. on maps where it's not so easy for zerg to hide behind a wall of sunkens and build whatever he wants, this isn't necessarily the case. just another reason to avoid LT altogether =)
JoeSaddles
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States344 Posts
September 03 2004 10:52 GMT
#63
yah LT is pretty crappy but i think it's easier to pvz on LT than it is on korhal T_T. and korhal is a wcg map... that sucks. watch the koreans and see how they handle certain situations. but that's only part of it. just watching reps won't make you better T_T
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/SaddleS.html
MaTRiX[SiN]
Profile Joined September 2003
Sweden1282 Posts
September 03 2004 15:15 GMT
#64
On September 02 2004 18:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2004 18:43 Pomozite wrote:
On September 02 2004 15:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard..

Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that.

PvZ at really high levels is hard on temple.
PvZ at most peoples level is not imbalanced at all -.-;;

What you described is caused by errors on the protoss part.. Fucking up your timing or the like. Basically, when you are being lurk contained you must know WHEN zergs are prone to start their mass expanding, as that is when you have a clear window, you must have as great a force in time for that window as possible, that is when you make or break PvZ!

Unless you are intotherain you have to be breaking out around the time that the zerg is gaining expansions.

Sunkens are defeatable by heavy goon + upgrades (though you do not really want to go head on, you just want to disrupt and gain equal economy so you can do something like carriers or reavers or some higher tecH), also I long had immense troubles with just that because of me not taking enough expansions because I wasn't used to that kind of turtle.

Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.-

well if u look at it as wich race is the strongest or have the advantage i guess pvz is balanced on non-pro level but! as i see it imbalance isnt just what race is the strongest but wich one is the easiest to play...for a toss player pvz u have to have GREAT timing +good micro when breaking out of contains,counter the right way in early game,if 2 gate u need to do some serious damage not to get terrible outmacro'd etc...but for the zerg player all he needs to learn is to go lurk/ling/scourge and macro like fuck...now if u take 2 average players who r supposed to learn this match up isnt it quite obious that its alot easier to learn pvz as zerg? especially since very few of us have the luck to get taught by 1600 gamei koreans..once u get above average level but still below pro level at around mb b6+ wgt i guess its balanced but for average and below its alot easier for zerg than for protoss...
aka StormtoSS
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
September 03 2004 19:47 GMT
#65
On September 04 2004 00:15 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2004 18:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
On September 02 2004 18:43 Pomozite wrote:
On September 02 2004 15:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard..

Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that.

PvZ at really high levels is hard on temple.
PvZ at most peoples level is not imbalanced at all -.-;;

What you described is caused by errors on the protoss part.. Fucking up your timing or the like. Basically, when you are being lurk contained you must know WHEN zergs are prone to start their mass expanding, as that is when you have a clear window, you must have as great a force in time for that window as possible, that is when you make or break PvZ!

Unless you are intotherain you have to be breaking out around the time that the zerg is gaining expansions.

Sunkens are defeatable by heavy goon + upgrades (though you do not really want to go head on, you just want to disrupt and gain equal economy so you can do something like carriers or reavers or some higher tecH), also I long had immense troubles with just that because of me not taking enough expansions because I wasn't used to that kind of turtle.

Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.-

well if u look at it as wich race is the strongest or have the advantage i guess pvz is balanced on non-pro level but! as i see it imbalance isnt just what race is the strongest but wich one is the easiest to play...for a toss player pvz u have to have GREAT timing +good micro when breaking out of contains,counter the right way in early game,if 2 gate u need to do some serious damage not to get terrible outmacro'd etc...but for the zerg player all he needs to learn is to go lurk/ling/scourge and macro like fuck...now if u take 2 average players who r supposed to learn this match up isnt it quite obious that its alot easier to learn pvz as zerg? especially since very few of us have the luck to get taught by 1600 gamei koreans..once u get above average level but still below pro level at around mb b6+ wgt i guess its balanced but for average and below its alot easier for zerg than for protoss...

Hehe, he just gave me a jumpstart :O 1600 old gamei he was btw, which is like 1200-1300 neogamei ioi

And I would disagree with you, if you take a P player and make him ZvP and a Z player and make him PvZ.. I think the Z player would rape the living shit out of the P's Z

You say 'go lurker ling scourge and macro like fuck'.. Go play zerg on WGT 20 games, or on neogamei. You'll get horribly raped, I bet you won't be able to get your expo up and running even.

At the very start, learning ZvP is much harder than PvZ!

At the mid levels, most every P is focused so much on playing PvT well that their PvZ suffers + you need more experience to play PvZ so at midlevels Z>P.

At prolevels it's damn equal as long as it's not bullshit maps :O Yellow said that P's only become really really hard to play once they reach that (currently) highest level.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
September 03 2004 20:34 GMT
#66
i agree with FA, especially on the "At the very start, learning ZvP is much harder than PvZ!" part. simply because p units are so strong and low zergs dont know how to deal with storm, while a low p might be able to place some at least decent storms -_-
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
MaTRiX[SiN]
Profile Joined September 2003
Sweden1282 Posts
September 04 2004 14:27 GMT
#67
On September 04 2004 04:47 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2004 00:15 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
On September 02 2004 18:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
On September 02 2004 18:43 Pomozite wrote:
On September 02 2004 15:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard..

Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that.

PvZ at really high levels is hard on temple.
PvZ at most peoples level is not imbalanced at all -.-;;

What you described is caused by errors on the protoss part.. Fucking up your timing or the like. Basically, when you are being lurk contained you must know WHEN zergs are prone to start their mass expanding, as that is when you have a clear window, you must have as great a force in time for that window as possible, that is when you make or break PvZ!

Unless you are intotherain you have to be breaking out around the time that the zerg is gaining expansions.

Sunkens are defeatable by heavy goon + upgrades (though you do not really want to go head on, you just want to disrupt and gain equal economy so you can do something like carriers or reavers or some higher tecH), also I long had immense troubles with just that because of me not taking enough expansions because I wasn't used to that kind of turtle.

Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.-

well if u look at it as wich race is the strongest or have the advantage i guess pvz is balanced on non-pro level but! as i see it imbalance isnt just what race is the strongest but wich one is the easiest to play...for a toss player pvz u have to have GREAT timing +good micro when breaking out of contains,counter the right way in early game,if 2 gate u need to do some serious damage not to get terrible outmacro'd etc...but for the zerg player all he needs to learn is to go lurk/ling/scourge and macro like fuck...now if u take 2 average players who r supposed to learn this match up isnt it quite obious that its alot easier to learn pvz as zerg? especially since very few of us have the luck to get taught by 1600 gamei koreans..once u get above average level but still below pro level at around mb b6+ wgt i guess its balanced but for average and below its alot easier for zerg than for protoss...

Hehe, he just gave me a jumpstart :O 1600 old gamei he was btw, which is like 1200-1300 neogamei ioi

And I would disagree with you, if you take a P player and make him ZvP and a Z player and make him PvZ.. I think the Z player would rape the living shit out of the P's Z

You say 'go lurker ling scourge and macro like fuck'.. Go play zerg on WGT 20 games, or on neogamei. You'll get horribly raped, I bet you won't be able to get your expo up and running even.

At the very start, learning ZvP is much harder than PvZ!

At the mid levels, most every P is focused so much on playing PvT well that their PvZ suffers + you need more experience to play PvZ so at midlevels Z>P.

At prolevels it's damn equal as long as it's not bullshit maps :O Yellow said that P's only become really really hard to play once they reach that (currently) highest level.
wow these became alot of quotes I'm actually trying to learn some t/z right now so i'll get back to u in a week or so and we'll see how hard it was for me to play zvp
aka StormtoSS
pooper-scooper
Profile Joined May 2003
United States3108 Posts
September 05 2004 05:00 GMT
#68
holy entries batman
Good...Bad... Im the guy with the gun
SpiriT-DemoN-
Profile Joined January 2003
United States684 Posts
September 05 2004 08:30 GMT
#69
i'm not gonna read all this but ya plz get some FrozenArbiter pvz temple reps up! i'd like to see the crazy PlayGrrrr... styleZ
An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind - Gandhi
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
September 05 2004 09:01 GMT
#70
On September 05 2004 17:30 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote:
i'm not gonna read all this but ya plz get some FrozenArbiter pvz temple reps up! i'd like to see the crazy PlayGrrrr... styleZ

Haha I don't play anything at all like Grrr, skill or style wise :O
I think Zeus or reach would be closest to how I try to play :O
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
SpiriT-DemoN-
Profile Joined January 2003
United States684 Posts
September 05 2004 15:40 GMT
#71
i was just using the Grrrr name since he was imo the best pvz player of all-time during his prime. but ya i'd like to see your reps just because i think it would be entertaining
An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind - Gandhi
Chivalry
Profile Joined September 2004
United States70 Posts
September 05 2004 16:44 GMT
#72
uh, pvz is alright if you ask me until the zerg reaches the hive stage thus getting bags of imbalanceness (ultras) =]
ngi id: MiracleToss DL this MMORPG: http://www.ryl.com.my
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-09-05 21:22:21
September 05 2004 21:21 GMT
#73
On September 06 2004 01:44 Chivalry wrote:
uh, pvz is alright if you ask me until the zerg reaches the hive stage thus getting bags of imbalanceness (ultras) =]

They also have lesser-bags of greater imbalance - zerglings. Zeriouzly zergling dropz are fucking annoying if you azk me. Zerglingz with adrenal glandz are inzanely annoying with drop + they fucking eat zealotz with plague.

If I play any good game I'll upload it somewhere -.- Sifting through replays is annoying -.-
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
iD.Surv
Profile Joined April 2004
Belgium827 Posts
September 05 2004 22:19 GMT
#74
Go zeal pressure but dont lose a single zeal without a reason. Dont fight battles you cant win. If you make zeal and dont wate them you will force him into more ling and sunken. This means slow tech for him. It hurts his economy more than yours cause he has 1 building that produces everything. He uses larves for lings you use gate for zeals. You can make non stop probes he cant make non stop drones. Dont get over confident. Build an archon with your first tempz and dont lose it. Build at least 1 canon at your ramp and if you didnt see any hydras build at least 2 cannons at your mineral line. Dont get all down because he got an exp and you dont. Hold your unit advantage and expand when you can. Mostly after you have the right tech to counter his (vs muta can/archon and vs lurkers robo) Zeal/archon is a good opening it can fight of lurk/ling and muta/ling but it will not own it. You need the 2d gas.

CORSAIR SUX
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
September 05 2004 23:54 GMT
#75
Surv is wise.

Btw, you can expand before robo, just make sure you start it pretty much immediately after -.- Cannong your own cliff good too, if you suspect drop :O

Btw, 2 cannons won't do ANYTHING, I mean seriously, nothing. 3 cannons needed, also helps if he's dropping :O
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
September 06 2004 00:32 GMT
#76
On September 06 2004 06:21 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2004 01:44 Chivalry wrote:
uh, pvz is alright if you ask me until the zerg reaches the hive stage thus getting bags of imbalanceness (ultras) =]

They also have lesser-bags of greater imbalance - zerglings. Zeriouzly zergling dropz are fucking annoying if you azk me. Zerglingz with adrenal glandz are inzanely annoying with drop + they fucking eat zealotz with plague.

If I play any good game I'll upload it somewhere -.- Sifting through replays is annoying -.-


yeah ;(

some lone cracklings kill a nexus so fast, asdf
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
iD.Surv
Profile Joined April 2004
Belgium827 Posts
September 06 2004 14:52 GMT
#77
yea crack drop on the gates is mostly game finisher
Casper...
Profile Joined October 2002
Liberia4948 Posts
September 06 2004 16:39 GMT
#78
On September 06 2004 00:40 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote:
i was just using the Grrrr name since he was imo the best pvz player of all-time during his prime. but ya i'd like to see your reps just because i think it would be entertaining


garimto
JAM THE FUCKER!
Promises
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands1821 Posts
October 25 2004 18:10 GMT
#79
Im finally getting to grips with PvZ, not that I win them all but when I lose I dont feel like "what the fuck could I have done better?". I'm a little unsure on build orders on Nostalgia, experimented a bit with fexpo (nu lurkerdrops=thx) but Its rather dangerous as you can't really stop a zerg from running in anyway (a compact earlybase guarded by some cannons usually saved me here). I do not agree that a Z player would own a P player if they switched races, as in my experience I've done this a few time and I severly raped the Z playing P, even tho his Z totally rapes my P (admittedly he has a poor P overall).
I'm a man of my word, and that word is "unreliable".
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
October 25 2004 19:09 GMT
#80
There some 1+ build that is pretty popular on nostalgia.

Zealot/reaver a la kingdom works well too ;o
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
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