EPTAlso, what the hell am I supposed to do as far as finding out the zerg's strategy? Guess lurker or muta? I know fast obs is out of the question.
Just some basic pvz things, and the scouting tech tips would be nice. thanks. :O
[Request] PvZ woes
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
RiSE
United States3182 Posts
Also, what the hell am I supposed to do as far as finding out the zerg's strategy? Guess lurker or muta? I know fast obs is out of the question. Just some basic pvz things, and the scouting tech tips would be nice. thanks. :O | ||
|
Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
| ||
|
dronebabo
10866 Posts
| ||
|
ChApFoU
France2982 Posts
sry i cant help you, i suck too much with protoss ^^ | ||
|
Yuljan
2196 Posts
| ||
|
NonYold
United States2814 Posts
perhaps the counter-argument will be "oh but nony, these people dont want to be the best.. they just want to improve in their own niche in starcraft, and they can do so by considering the tips and advice of their peers on teamliquid" and my response would be that although i execute starcraft.exe, join games, and hit the keys and move my mouse like them, i am playing an entirely different game.. and i dont understand the enjoyment that they get out of theirs =[ | ||
|
Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
| ||
ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
"you can tell if he is going muta or lurker by looking at the ling and game flow" (garimto) There is no way you can expect to scout the zerg. If it is a 2 gas map and he got his expo safe it is all about your ability to pressure and keep him spending his money - and take your exp before he has lurkers out. PvZ IS hard - prectice. | ||
|
MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
It takes a lot of practice to know what they are doing. If you get lucky and scout a hydra with probe scouts then lay back on he mineral cannons, just make 2 in case of fast lurk drop and focus on your expo. It's hard to explain this MU over a forum because it is mainly a feeling and you don't get it by reading something. | ||
|
RiSE
United States3182 Posts
On August 29 2004 13:27 NonY wrote: i dont recall any of the current best players becoming so skilled by reading advice on a messageboard.. why are so many people convinced that it's the smart thing to do now? who are these people on the top that got there from reading this shit? perhaps the counter-argument will be "oh but nony, these people dont want to be the best.. they just want to improve in their own niche in starcraft, and they can do so by considering the tips and advice of their peers on teamliquid" and my response would be that although i execute starcraft.exe, join games, and hit the keys and move my mouse like them, i am playing an entirely different game.. and i dont understand the enjoyment that they get out of theirs =[ I don't quite know why you're saying this on a brood war forum, but okay. | ||
|
Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
The best advice is to download a shitload of winning pvz games and copy what the pros do. Then play the game and mimmick those strategies as much as you can. And dont give me that "oh but I dont wanna copy people, I wanna be original" crap. If you wanna win then do what you gotta do to win. EDIT: Go download those replay packages on starcraftgamers.com. Do exactly what Nal_Ra, reach, and kingdom do. | ||
|
NeverTheEndlessWiz
Singapore827 Posts
| ||
|
ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
But using good builds is important, you have very small windows for success in PvZ. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
If in doubt; 2 templar and make an archon. If you know den tech, 1 ht 1 dt. If you know spire, obviously 1 archon. No you do not make more than one archon, just expo and get goon storm. DT scouting the most probable place of expansion on patrol between nat and expo, most zergs send ol so basically you just want to get the drone so he has to send another one. Halt zealot production after your expo, robo as soon as you have secured front and main with cannon ht (all depends on situation and zergs tech) and mass unless he's doing something obscure. Bringing more than 3 hts when you attack is usually not good as you won't be able to use all. Make a shuttle as soon as robo completes so you can cannon your own cliff (it helps a lot) or just storm drop. 2 gate = good, 1 gate = risky especially if you are palying ladders or julyzerg wannabes (you'll die unless forge or battery). 6 o clock being the exception pretty much, sair dt strong there. Don't do stuff like 1+ after your citadel, make sure you time it right. I mean, that's usually too late -.-;; Bleh, but this is really just stuff I've found out through tips and most of all PLAYING A LOT.. Lots of this might not work for you, PvZ can be played in more ways than one you just need great timing. Timing, timing, timing, timing, timing. (Like that video with that guy repeating 'development development development development development development' someone posted on here) Timing is no.1, good storm, good micro macro and multitask is of course important but timing is #1! | ||
|
STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
| ||
|
Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 29 2004 15:44 ApollyoN wrote: You cant just copy replays and strategies, thats retarded. You'll never learn the game that way, just watch your own replays that you lose, clean up your builds, and try to actually understand the matchup. Think your way through each game and play a lot, you'll improve a quickly. But using good builds is important, you have very small windows for success in PvZ. If you incorporate the mindset and use the protoss vision only you will succeed a lot. Trust me. I used to do this and I got from around a c2-c3 noob all the way to b3 in 2 seasons. Im not saying im a pro or anything but I can say that watching professional replays have helped A LOT. You have to see exactly what these pros do whenever they are faced with a certain situation. Or how do they defend their base when being dropped, or how do they fight ledges, or how do use their army to attack. Watching your replays only is retarded. What new things are you ever gonna learn? | ||
|
mmm.beer
Canada412 Posts
They are completely unprepared for at least one of (a) mass lings, (b) muta, or (c) lurk + drop. Of which the zerg can choose 2 of to go after you in a short period of time. | ||
|
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
On August 29 2004 16:33 mmm.beer wrote: the problem is we dont get a cake to start off withAlot of toss that try to have their cake and eat it too. They want to 2 gate zeal rush...and make a sair or two...and expo...and research storm....and.... They are completely unprepared for at least one of (a) mass lings, (b) muta, or (c) lurk + drop. Of which the zerg can choose 2 of to go after you in a short period of time. | ||
|
Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
| ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
| ||
|
Servolisk
United States5241 Posts
I went to WGT to try and find what ID he used on there but those ads (which I just saw for the first time) are too ugly to stand. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
SupFace
United States20 Posts
| ||
|
Pomozite
Croatia647 Posts
| ||
|
RiSE
United States3182 Posts
| ||
Arbiter[frolix]
United Kingdom2674 Posts
On August 29 2004 13:27 NonY wrote: i dont recall any of the current best players becoming so skilled by reading advice on a messageboard.. why are so many people convinced that it's the smart thing to do now? who are these people on the top that got there from reading this shit? perhaps the counter-argument will be "oh but nony, these people dont want to be the best.. they just want to improve in their own niche in starcraft, and they can do so by considering the tips and advice of their peers on teamliquid" and my response would be that although i execute starcraft.exe, join games, and hit the keys and move my mouse like them, i am playing an entirely different game.. and i dont understand the enjoyment that they get out of theirs =[ Very strange post. Getting advice from people better than yourself seems to me to be a pretty standard way of learning anything in life. I haven't the faintest idea why you think asking for Brood War advice in a Brood War forum is in any way unusual. | ||
|
JoeUser
United States684 Posts
| ||
|
SpiriT-DemoN-
United States684 Posts
| ||
|
ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
| ||
|
Tossim1
714 Posts
On August 30 2004 21:56 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote: If you don't have problems playing pvz on temple.. either your i.d. is PlayGrrrr... or your getting lucky.. pvz temple is friggen impossible i feel ya brotha | ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
before you could just storm your way out of trouble. expand, get a spotter with cannons under (usually a sair for the free ovie kill), get storm lurker contain? just kill his lurkers with clone storm and a zealot lead. come out, kill his other main and it's over. 3 hat muta was a pain, but tolerable and pretty readable. now you need robotics. that 200 gas+observatory+obs is way too much. he can snipe your obs with hydra if you find yourself in a tough spot. even if you do break out he's had time to make his other main untouchable. the game is automatically extended, and now you have to deal with ultras. if it goes further, he can plague your army and auto kill your min only with swarm. against this you have no defense, and a very small window to prevent it from happening. just arg. | ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
in pvz now you have to be right on top of whatever the zerg is doing, all the time | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 30 2004 21:56 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote: If you don't have problems playing pvz on temple.. either your i.d. is PlayGrrrr... or your getting lucky.. pvz temple is friggen impossible Apparently my id is PlayGrrrr... then. Intotherain would have been a better example though. Everyone is just insanely whiney about pvz because they have no timing. | ||
|
SpiriT-DemoN-
United States684 Posts
| ||
|
baelrog
Austria705 Posts
| ||
|
[vital]Myth
United States588 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 11:00 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote: either way unless you get ahead of the zerg or harass well early.. your not goin to be able to keep up very well. i maxed units within 15min and still got whooped even with my storm kills. Zerg on temple isn't right.. Then you either a) Missed the timing completely (being maxed is no fucking use if you just let zerg build up until then..) b) Got raped by harass because you couldn't read the zerg c) Zerg was wastly superior to you d) You suck. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 13:17 baelrog wrote: why are u diing to julyzerg wannabes if u make 1 gate tech?^^ Because his response to 1 gate tech is sending 30 zerglings at you. It works-_- | ||
|
KiLLme1st
United States1824 Posts
 Seriously, everyone should listen to FA he is explaining the basic idea better than I think anyone I have ever talked too could. If you want an explanation listen to him, otherwise just play a lot and you will basically learn the same things he is saying. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 18:10 KiLLme1st- wrote: Frozenarbiter <3 Seriously, everyone should listen to FA he is explaining the basic idea better than I think anyone I have ever talked too could. If you want an explanation listen to him, otherwise just play a lot and you will basically learn the same things he is saying. ^_^ Thanks <3 I remember when I learned the "If in doubt; 2 templar and make an archon. If you know den tech, 1 ht 1 dt. If you know spire, obviously 1 archon. No you do not make more than one archon, just expo and get goon storm." I had played for like a few months and this 1600 korean gamei toss was teaching me, he had me repeat counters to the different zerg openings and like how to read the zerg and stuff for like 1 hour+ (would obviously have been shorter if he was fluent in english). Good times. Good times! He's in the army now -_- | ||
|
MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
 ~ They are good for offense and even if you do perfect storms on their army, they will still have sunks that stop you from advancing. Arch is safer + it looks cool. And, your 2 temps woudl normally already be on the way.And casper, PvZ isn't nearly as impossible as you make it sound. If that happens and you try to win by pure macro alone ofcourse you are going to lose. You need to harass because it is an uphill battle And it doesn't matter if YOU are maxed out, the Z can also be maxed out. And if his econ is way stronger than yours, good chance your fucked. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 20:43 MiniRoman wrote: I normally just archon anyways. Even if I scout hydra ~ They are good for offense and even if you do perfect storms on their army, they will still have sunks that stop you from advancing. Arch is safer + it looks cool. And, your 2 temps woudl normally already be on the way.And casper, PvZ isn't nearly as impossible as you make it sound. If that happens and you try to win by pure macro alone ofcourse you are going to lose. You need to harass because it is an uphill battle And it doesn't matter if YOU are maxed out, the Z can also be maxed out. And if his econ is way stronger than yours, good chance your fucked. Well, if they lurker yeah - then I archon too as they will mostly be lurker ling - archon is really great vs that and you really don't need storm as much as you need the robo quickly. However, the DT+HT is so you can expand vs a zerg going for hydras specifically, (not any other den tech to start with) you will want to play defensively (not because you can't win offensively, but because that is playing the zerg player right into his/her hands if they are committing to rushing). In that situation HT+DT and faster storm helps more than an archon. However, you will almost never know tech for sure until you are ready to build your archon so I end up making archon in almost all of my PvZ's (I, like you, feel it's a really nice unit, and it's great for sneaking together with zealots) To sum it up, vs a zerg going hydra you don't want to play offense but rather defense and then just break and kill as there will be a period during which the zerg is rather weak following after the hydra opening (provided it's the typical attack hydra build). Since you won't want to attack until you have a solid eco and production either way, the archon doesn't help as much as storm dt +_+ Mmm it's 6 am and I find myself unable to form coherent sentances I'll call it a day now, nite. Actually no I'll pull an allnighter instead  Need to change sleeping schedule. | ||
|
juSblazin
United States691 Posts
 | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 31 2004 23:00 juSblazin wrote: wow that guy who trained u must've been a nice guy Ya, one of the nicest people I've ever met :O I was fortunate enough to meet like four 1400-1600 gamei people just after starting and they all were INSANELY nice :O Like first person I met after I started playing BW was this 32 year old 1400 gamei korean guy :O He helped me a lot, like he taught me how I should macro PvT and stuff. Good 'ol days ~~ | ||
|
mazaGhal
Sweden73 Posts
I USE alot of Zerglings on fast exping (I mean pylon.nexus forge 3 cannon gate) Mutta on defensive ones (like have shit load of units but ony stands and get expos) | ||
|
baelrog
Austria705 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 01 2004 08:36 baelrog wrote: what to do if the zerg has made it to like 3-4 gas and hass upgraded crackling/ultras. any conters to this? DT archon zealot is what you should be making once he starts utilizing his hive tech to make ult/ling. Also shield grades become important at this stage. Sair + DT (like 2 stargates) can be great, especially if you want to secure another main, throwing in a corsair or two can also be good, if you have the gas to spare, as it will be of some annoyance to the zerg as it chases overlords out of your way thus giving your dt's free kills (like it will reposition ols positioned in defensive places, and while zerg will certainly move it, he wont always notice this as there is plenty of 'under attack' noices and blinks going on). | ||
|
z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
On August 31 2004 04:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Apparently my id is PlayGrrrr... then. Intotherain would have been a better example though. Everyone is just insanely whiney about pvz because they have no timing. ![[image loading]](http://www.emotioneric.com/complacent.jpg) | ||
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
1. I 2 gate 90% in pvz. the only time i don't 2 gate is 9 position vs 3 position, where instead i do sair into either citadel or robo. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE your zealot micro, it's very important, the first zealot that gets there should try to harass drones, either that or attack a sunken colony that's building, then when you have 3 zealots you can engage his first 8-10 zerglings with proper micro. proper micro = getting into the most advantageous position with your zealots. a good trick is to just turn around and run from lings, get them to run in a line towards you, then quickly turn around and fight with your zealots IN LINE FORMATON (so they can all attack together). also using the ramps/minerals/buildings/whatever you can in order to gain good position on the zerglings. avoid getting surrounded (just keep running backwards when you need to) also of course pull back the ones that are gonna die and bring them quickly back into the battle once the zerglings stop targetting him. if your zealots are losing pull them back and wait for the next 2, then fight. really the best way to know how to fight is just to play hundreds and hundreds of pvzs, so you have experience and you know when to engage zerglings and when to wait for more zealots to get there. here is what i think is the best build order for 2 gate zealot rush. 9 pylon, 9 gate, 10 gate, 1 more probe up to 11. then 1 zealot when first gateway is done, then another pylon. when your first zealot is done your other gateway should also be done, so you make 2 more zealots bringing you up to 17/17 with a pylon more than halfway done. right when pylon is done make 1 more probe (only 1) bringing you up to 18/25, then 2 more zealots brings you to 22/25. make another pylon now. after this it depends on how well your zealots are fighting, if they're losing and he has sunks completed, make gas now and start pumping more probes. if they're doing really well, don't stop making them from both gateways (with proper pylons) also make sure you make everything right when you have the minerals. if you make your pylon on 150 minerals instead of 100 minerals it's gonna hurt you a lot. really this makes a big difference. it's hard to do the build perfectly while microing zealots perfectly, but you just need to practice and you'll get better with each game. i hope this helped a little. | ||
|
RiSE
United States3182 Posts
 | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Main Entry: com·pla·cent Pronunciation: k&m-'plA-s&nt Function: adjective Etymology: Latin complacent-, complacens, present participle of complacEre to please greatly, from com- + placEre to please -- more at PLEASE 1 : SELF-SATISFIED 2 : COMPLAISANT 1 3 : UNCONCERNED - com·pla·cent·ly adverb http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=complacent ? I'm sure it's hillarious I'm just not sure what complacent means -.-Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard.. I just feel the same as when I lose any other matchup (used to be like 'okay how can I improve, lately I've been more like 'fucking hell I suck/I hate my opponent and want him/her dead this instance , need to get back to humble--).Bleh ;( I write too much! | ||
|
JoeUser
United States684 Posts
| ||
|
Pomozite
Croatia647 Posts
On September 02 2004 15:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw, I'm not saying I'm some kind of god PvZ (unlike what rain and grrr used to be), just I feel that when I lose PvZ, I lose because I got outplayed - not because of imbalance or PvZ being extremely hard.. Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 02 2004 18:43 Pomozite wrote: Sometimes I see that my opponent is fast and has good micro, but mostly when I lose PvZ I feel like I lost because it is too hard. After zerg expands and gets sunken it is impossible for me to scout and he can see everything I do. If I build corsair I don't do much damage and my tech is slower, so zerg can exapand and make many sunkens. At the end ultras and cracklings just run over me. Many times I lose faster or I win, but still I feel that pvz is imbalanced and many statistics indicate that. PvZ at really high levels is hard on temple. PvZ at most peoples level is not imbalanced at all -.-;; What you described is caused by errors on the protoss part.. Fucking up your timing or the like. Basically, when you are being lurk contained you must know WHEN zergs are prone to start their mass expanding, as that is when you have a clear window, you must have as great a force in time for that window as possible, that is when you make or break PvZ! Unless you are intotherain you have to be breaking out around the time that the zerg is gaining expansions. Sunkens are defeatable by heavy goon + upgrades (though you do not really want to go head on, you just want to disrupt and gain equal economy so you can do something like carriers or reavers or some higher tecH), also I long had immense troubles with just that because of me not taking enough expansions because I wasn't used to that kind of turtle. Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.- | ||
|
z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
I just think that was a very unexperienced/uneducated opinion,now if only i cared enough to debate it. shrug | ||
|
Pomozite
Croatia647 Posts
On September 02 2004 18:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.- I can see that in replay, but it is hard to know that in game. I don't thing ballance is obvious only at high levels. Sometimes zerg wastes many units, but still wins. Zerg can make comeback with good micro, but for toss one mistake is lose. That's why 9/10 rush is good, one mistake is deadly for zerg too. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 02 2004 19:36 z7-TranCe wrote: The facial expression suited my thoughts on your particular opinion.Has nothing to do with 'Complacent' ;p. I just think that was a very unexperienced/uneducated opinion,now if only i cared enough to debate it. shrug Well I never said I am at a really high level of play (where I admit PvZ on temple is not perfectly balanced) The person I was replying to said "If you don't have trouble with PvZ on temple your id is either PlayGrrr or you are getting lucky".Well, I don't have any problems with PvZ on temple (my level of play) hence, I must be playgrrr If someone like you or nazgul complains it's understandable as you would be playing much much better zergs, which is when imbalance comes into play. Everyone here is just soooooooooooooooo whiney about PvZ it's ridiculous, and it's all because they have no clue as to how to play it for the most part (not talking about you here, as I think your PvZ is really good from what I've seen and you might have reason to think PvZ is imbalanced, whereas most people here do not play with progamers or people close to progamer level, hence imbalance doesn't affect them). And the only real imbalance there is (well most of it!), is position dependant +_+ But please do debate it as I know you are a very good player (I'll make Phi refuse you sex if you dont -______-!) | ||
|
Pomozite
Croatia647 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I guess I could sift through a few of my neogamei games -.- I'm not amazing by any counts but PvZ is my best matchup and for my level of play it's not bad. | ||
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
| ||
|
Louder
United States2276 Posts
| ||
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
| ||
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On September 02 2004 18:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: PvZ at really high levels is hard on temple. PvZ at most peoples level is not imbalanced at all -.-;; What you described is caused by errors on the protoss part.. Fucking up your timing or the like. Basically, when you are being lurk contained you must know WHEN zergs are prone to start their mass expanding, as that is when you have a clear window, you must have as great a force in time for that window as possible, that is when you make or break PvZ! Unless you are intotherain you have to be breaking out around the time that the zerg is gaining expansions. Sunkens are defeatable by heavy goon + upgrades (though you do not really want to go head on, you just want to disrupt and gain equal economy so you can do something like carriers or reavers or some higher tecH), also I long had immense troubles with just that because of me not taking enough expansions because I wasn't used to that kind of turtle. Most times when a P loses to heavy sunken turtling there's some moment in the game were he could have won rather easily -.- All about timing -.- well if u look at it as wich race is the strongest or have the advantage i guess pvz is balanced on non-pro level but! as i see it imbalance isnt just what race is the strongest but wich one is the easiest to play...for a toss player pvz u have to have GREAT timing +good micro when breaking out of contains,counter the right way in early game,if 2 gate u need to do some serious damage not to get terrible outmacro'd etc...but for the zerg player all he needs to learn is to go lurk/ling/scourge and macro like fuck...now if u take 2 average players who r supposed to learn this match up isnt it quite obious that its alot easier to learn pvz as zerg? especially since very few of us have the luck to get taught by 1600 gamei koreans..once u get above average level but still below pro level at around mb b6+ wgt i guess its balanced but for average and below its alot easier for zerg than for protoss... | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 04 2004 00:15 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote: well if u look at it as wich race is the strongest or have the advantage i guess pvz is balanced on non-pro level but! as i see it imbalance isnt just what race is the strongest but wich one is the easiest to play...for a toss player pvz u have to have GREAT timing +good micro when breaking out of contains,counter the right way in early game,if 2 gate u need to do some serious damage not to get terrible outmacro'd etc...but for the zerg player all he needs to learn is to go lurk/ling/scourge and macro like fuck...now if u take 2 average players who r supposed to learn this match up isnt it quite obious that its alot easier to learn pvz as zerg? especially since very few of us have the luck to get taught by 1600 gamei koreans..once u get above average level but still below pro level at around mb b6+ wgt i guess its balanced but for average and below its alot easier for zerg than for protoss... Hehe, he just gave me a jumpstart :O 1600 old gamei he was btw, which is like 1200-1300 neogamei ioi And I would disagree with you, if you take a P player and make him ZvP and a Z player and make him PvZ.. I think the Z player would rape the living shit out of the P's Z You say 'go lurker ling scourge and macro like fuck'.. Go play zerg on WGT 20 games, or on neogamei. You'll get horribly raped, I bet you won't be able to get your expo up and running even. At the very start, learning ZvP is much harder than PvZ! At the mid levels, most every P is focused so much on playing PvT well that their PvZ suffers + you need more experience to play PvZ so at midlevels Z>P. At prolevels it's damn equal as long as it's not bullshit maps :O Yellow said that P's only become really really hard to play once they reach that (currently) highest level. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
| ||
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On September 04 2004 04:47 FrozenArbiter wrote: wow these became alot of quotes Hehe, he just gave me a jumpstart :O 1600 old gamei he was btw, which is like 1200-1300 neogamei ioi And I would disagree with you, if you take a P player and make him ZvP and a Z player and make him PvZ.. I think the Z player would rape the living shit out of the P's Z You say 'go lurker ling scourge and macro like fuck'.. Go play zerg on WGT 20 games, or on neogamei. You'll get horribly raped, I bet you won't be able to get your expo up and running even. At the very start, learning ZvP is much harder than PvZ! At the mid levels, most every P is focused so much on playing PvT well that their PvZ suffers + you need more experience to play PvZ so at midlevels Z>P. At prolevels it's damn equal as long as it's not bullshit maps :O Yellow said that P's only become really really hard to play once they reach that (currently) highest level. I'm actually trying to learn some t/z right now so i'll get back to u in a week or so and we'll see how hard it was for me to play zvp | ||
|
pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
| ||
|
SpiriT-DemoN-
United States684 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 05 2004 17:30 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote: i'm not gonna read all this but ya plz get some FrozenArbiter pvz temple reps up! i'd like to see the crazy PlayGrrrr... styleZ Haha I don't play anything at all like Grrr, skill or style wise :O I think Zeus or reach would be closest to how I try to play :O | ||
|
SpiriT-DemoN-
United States684 Posts
| ||
|
Chivalry
United States70 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 06 2004 01:44 Chivalry wrote: uh, pvz is alright if you ask me until the zerg reaches the hive stage thus getting bags of imbalanceness (ultras) =] They also have lesser-bags of greater imbalance - zerglings. Zeriouzly zergling dropz are fucking annoying if you azk me. Zerglingz with adrenal glandz are inzanely annoying with drop + they fucking eat zealotz with plague. If I play any good game I'll upload it somewhere -.- Sifting through replays is annoying -.- | ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
CORSAIR SUX | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Btw, you can expand before robo, just make sure you start it pretty much immediately after -.- Cannong your own cliff good too, if you suspect drop :O Btw, 2 cannons won't do ANYTHING, I mean seriously, nothing. 3 cannons needed, also helps if he's dropping :O | ||
|
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On September 06 2004 06:21 FrozenArbiter wrote: They also have lesser-bags of greater imbalance - zerglings. Zeriouzly zergling dropz are fucking annoying if you azk me. Zerglingz with adrenal glandz are inzanely annoying with drop + they fucking eat zealotz with plague. If I play any good game I'll upload it somewhere -.- Sifting through replays is annoying -.- yeah ;( some lone cracklings kill a nexus so fast, asdf | ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
| ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
On September 06 2004 00:40 SpiriT-DemoN- wrote: i was just using the Grrrr name since he was imo the best pvz player of all-time during his prime. but ya i'd like to see your reps just because i think it would be entertaining garimto | ||
|
Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Zealot/reaver a la kingdom works well too ;o | ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
rally 2 gateways to his expo and just keep harassing. make him spend money on sunkens which cost a lot of min 50 for drone 75 for creep and 50 for sunken each. thats 175 EACH. usually i try to keep my scouting probe alive as long as possible. and find out his tech. you can even do some cheese and take his gas if you want lol. usually i look at how many sunkens lings and hatcheries he has. after playing for a bit you will know what he is getting. also with the first 2 templar that come out i get an archon thats it. then just get templar goon as someone posted here. ultralisks are freaken awesome units but remember that they are not the source of damage. use storms on his lings or maelstrom his ultras and he cant deal that much damage. the only real time i use dark archons i versus long game zergs. the feedback really hurts defilers and the maelstrom is great on ultras. if your da tech is really early you can even try mcing his overlords and kill with dts or even mc his ultras lol. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
! | ||
|
Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
And I guess gas rush is doable on nost =] | ||
|
ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 26 2004 04:09 FrozenArbiter wrote: There some 1+ build that is pretty popular on nostalgia. Zealot/reaver a la kingdom works well too ;o What Kingdom game(s) is that? | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Dahlia of jungle. WCG Kor prelim. | ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
Ideal times to delay are 6v9 or 9v6 on LT when OL scouts you early and you show 2 gates. Z will sometimes 2 hatch in main (on that ledge) so as to get a later pool and more drones. He will do this IF you show 2 gates. If you only show 1 gate and go tech then he definitely will expo with first hatch. Don't get any lots with those 2 gates (wait for the pool) and take your gas around 14 or so. His second OL will be showing up in about 5 seconds and when he sees your gas taken he will take his and plop down a nother hatch. You need to take his gas before he takes it. This will force him to use those 3 larva for lings, even though you still have zero lots. As lings start building you should have a cyb starting and a pylon about to finish. Build 2 lots as soon as its done and then 1 more lot and a later goon (cyb takes longer than lot build time) Now you have a cyb and 3 lots and a goon to tech safely (lower corners) for whatever tech you want. I HIGHLY suggest 2 probe scouts right now. He is eihter powering of 6-10 lings, or he expoed again. Or he is massing lings (18+) with speed. If it is the last you need to get forge ASAP and 1-2 cannons at ur cliff. You can go either sair or reaver with this. Or play it completely safe and go for temp tech. Scouting is vital to see his response. He COULD be going mutt, so see if he has a gas up at his expo. If he does, assume mutt. then its either cannon/sair expo into archon or striaght to archon. Thats the basics, but you should be able to figure out the proper responses. THe key is just misleading the Z until you choose what to go. | ||
|
Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
As for the initial reaction im basing this all on; you need to be able to keep a probe alive in their base for 2+ minutes. I mean christ, he doesnt even have lings til the end of that time and hes busy killing an assimilator...so really if your doing things blindly the problem is not the BO. Its you. You scout so u KNOW what BO to do. | ||
|
ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 29 2004 14:44 Promises wrote: Hmm interesting build but my problem with this is often (probably also my problem that when I blind(ish)ly follow BO's like this) that my opponent doesn't quite have the insight he/she should have, thus powers lings stupidly or not so at all and comes running in with an army he shouldn't have ^^ (thats why I just stick to my own strats, tho I take advice from others ^^ the "just build 1 archon, storm the rest" against mutas was kind of an eye opener and when I checked some reps I indeed saw I made to much archons). Anyway I'm ranting. Umm... does he mean "blindly" as in without altering his BO, or as in little recon? I thought he meant without changing his BO... | ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
| ||
|
AMD_STorM
China50 Posts
| ||
|
PtL)ZerG
64 Posts
On August 29 2004 13:14 Yuljan wrote: As Zerg i find it hard to handle early mass zealot pressure. Right I have that problem too ! maybe harass Z in beginning ? dunno | ||
|
dork_of_death!!
United States374 Posts
| ||
|
AMD_STorM
China50 Posts
| ||
|
oPtioNaLk
Korea (South)564 Posts
On October 29 2004 14:50 FrozenArbiter wrote: Yeah that's garimto's advice ^_^ (1 archon then goon storm) Yes, it's the most annoying thing ever. 1 archon > MANY mutas. | ||
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On October 30 2004 21:09 oPtioNaLk wrote: Yes, it's the most annoying thing ever. 1 archon > MANY mutas. u can take out 1 archon with 6~~ muta's if u know how to micro...(if the archon is unsupported that is) | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
If it is completely unsupported you can do it with 1 (if ideal micro) ;o But you always should have cannons :O | ||
|
Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
| ||
|
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On October 31 2004 04:39 FrozenArbiter wrote: If it is completely unsupported you can do it with 1 (if ideal micro) ;o not in open field though Oo | ||
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On October 31 2004 04:39 FrozenArbiter wrote: Actually you can do it with 4 or less ;< If it is completely unsupported you can do it with 1 (if ideal micro) ;o But you always should have cannons :O I've only seen it ingame and then it was 6-7 muta's so thats why I said 6~~ mutas :p and if u get more than 1 archon (I know u shouldnt thats not the point) adding 6 mutas per archon is about how many u need to beat the archons like 6 muta>1 archon 12 muta>2 archon 18 muta>3 archons etc.. :p | ||
| ||
