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Hi I'm pretty depressed with ZVP
I fended off his zealot rush, and tried to muta harass him and he just mass cannons on his base and highground, I tried to mass expand and counter his cannons but he just mass cannons everywhere and camp each choke point with a HT.
I tried everything from swarm speedlings, guardians (gets raped by corsairs), or hydra bust but they just keep killing me with cannons from the base+highground and storming the choke points
I"m pretty depressed right now and I don't know how to counter this shit
I'm D level in ICCUP
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Philippines8437 Posts
guardians + devourers + queens to broodling templars.
Or try to starve the fuck out of him, take the whole map...
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1 can = 1 zeal and a half. The more he makes cannons, the less units he has, the more you can expand without anytrouble. Just take the whole map, and since he doesn't have many units, deny any attempt of a new expand.
The best advice I can give to you is leaving a zergling/overlord in every potential spot for an expand. And either snipe the probe, either attack before cannons are up.
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Mass expand and pretty much swarmed any unit will kill it. I'd suggest ultras if storm is that bad for you.
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use 9 - 11 mutas and kill the ht(s). Then proceed with swarms on canons and then send in the lings. Or you can drop 40-60 hydras in his main.
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The most standard and natural counter to mass cannons is mass drones. If you're in no position to be adding a lot of drones despite your opponent adding many cannons, then you've got your economy killed somewhere earlier.
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Hydras do very well against cannons, just don't get stormed. If your hydras won't break then just expand everywhere and don't let him expand. If he is still camping then just drop in the back of his base.
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If toss turtles, take whole map, drone whore, make a lot of hatcheries, tech to ultras, upgrade +3 carapace, +3 melee, get greater spire in case he goes air faggotry. Defend your expansions though, don't let your drones get killed by DTs or storm drops.
Attack expansions with ultra/ling + defilers. Just make more if they die.
Drop a lot of them on toss main, next to gateways if you can't take out expansions.
And IMHO forget hydras in ZvP lategame.
Zerg lategame is like the easiest of them all. Just attack and drop a lot.
Edit: Oh come on, that toss was terrible. Didn't even have templar tech till the 34 minute (or was it destroyed?). You shouldn't have had any problems beating him.
Also, pure hydras + dark swarm don't mix. Attacking with a puny 1 or 2 control groups won't do anything, either.
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If he barricades his chokes really well, doom drops are really the only way to go. I don't think hydras are good for attacking high ground. Especially when he has temps.
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if he turtles hard core just take map control.. by turtling he forfeits all expos to you just make sure that you are able to hold them and maintain control.
and then you can just roflstomp him ultra/ling/darkswarm style at his natural. (don't let him get a third if he turtles at his nat)
make sure you macro well
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watching the replay now, commenting on every important thing i see. (i'm only c- on iccup, but I think I can give you at least some tips...)
- your opening looks ok. the protoss opening doesn't. maybe you could have used a drone scout (i tend to scout with the 9th drone on 4 player maps). his bo is completely fucked up. (2 pylons, 2 gates, assimilator...in this order) normally all you've got to do from here is: play safe, defend his zealot aggression with lings/sunkens and choose a tech to kill him.
- okay, your defense was not good. but you still are ahead in terms of tech. ofc he's hiding behind cannons, that's what all protoss noobs do.  just scout the cannons and expand. think of the "concept of threat" (thx day9). he has to build a shitload of cannons, because his tech is so late. that means mapcontrol for you.
- oO. you're attacking with...3 mutas? wait until you've got 10-11, clump them and try to do some damage. if you see 4-5 cannons and 2 sairs just don't fly in there, because the damage is already done. and don`t fight sairs when your mutas are clumped up and your muta micro is not that good. split them.
- no. you wasted a lot of stuff to his sairs/cannons. that's bad. and you've got 1,6k minerals by now. that's very bad. remember: always try to expand WHILE you're attacking. that's not hard to do! your opponent has spent so much money on defense...just expand, don't waste units, deny his expansions, and win...
- stop wasting units! and don't panic when you see a lot of corsairs. if corsair numbers become too large, scourge are hard to use. if you're ahead economically, you can spend some money on defensive structures (spores) to save the ovies.
- now you start whining.  some dts kill your 4th base, because you expanded blindly. don't do that. on python it's important to establish the 4th base (sometimes the 3rd) at a natural to secure your late game gas. cannons aren't OP, in fact they suck against zerg.
- good drop. that's the game...don't tell me you've lost this! you killed his tech. this means: no dts. no corsairs. total map control for you. EXPAND everywhere now!
- 2,4k gas, 2,4 k minerals. you really need to work on your macro. even if I'm repeating myself: all you've got to do now is: expand 2 times, tech to ultralisks/cracklings/swarm. win.
- another drop. now it's over. you defense at the bottom right was bad. did u upgrade lurkers? they are your friends in terms of base defence against zealots.
- 30 minutes over. 2,5 bases to 1. you're still in some kind of rage mode. calm down, play it safe! scout the map. expand everywhere and defend with lurker/ling/swarm. don't let the protoss expand again. his cannons can't move...
- 32 minutes. horrible attack. swarm the front, and finish the gates w/ masslings and ultras. hydras are tricky to use with swarm, especially when there are cannons on the high ground. just drop some ultraling on the cliff and kill the cannons there. your whining gets absurd. (but that's okay, I like nerdrage) don't a-move little armies into his defensive structures.
- 5000 minerals. FIVE THOUSAND. instead of flaming your opponent, you need to build some hatcheries.
- oh my god. you stopped doing anything. carrier has arrived. end of game. what. the. 8000 minerals.
summary:
good:
- opening
- usage of drops
bad:
- scouting and decision making
- macro
- army control
- manner
-> seriously, work on your macro and your overall decision making. this can only be done by playing a lot of games and analyzing them correctly. u need to THINK while you`re playing.
-> expand on purpose. all u need is to be 2 expansions ahead. in this game, ultraling with swarm would have sealed the deal at least twice.
-> you also don't seem to understand the economic concept of zerg. if you expand a lot, you need MORE HATCHERIES. and if your macro is bad, you need EVEN MORE HATCHERIES.
kill the protoss with your mobility. mass a shitload of shit, when you're ahead like this. use defilers.
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You (as others have said) need to assert map control, and mass expand.
Then you simply starve the P.
If you do not have the patience to do that, hydra/guardian will clean anything up; minimal storm dodging might be needed. If you are fancy, add plague.
Note: guardians clean up cannons, also babysit them to snipe temps - generally spread them out; hydras cover guardians vs. sairs and may assist in cleaning up cannons).
In any case, do not attack too early, wasting your troops, and then being countered.
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And, supporting virpi:
As a Z, everytime you have 300 minerals, despite you have no idle larvae, no upgrades to order or tech buildings to make, you plant a hatchery.
The only exception is when you are saving money for some timing, e,g, 9 muta in a 3 hatch build.
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Dark swarm + zergling / ultra rapes cannons so much its not fair. Watch the game between Hero and Tempest on Matchpoint that was played yesterday in STX cup when it gets uploaded on youtube (jon747 or nevake). Its not mass cannon but it shows the power of swarm and lings against cannons
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He's massing cannons... Even if he reavers up, all you have to do is mass expand and macro.
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Even mass hydras counters cannons.
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Hydras are actually pretty terrible against massed cannons (read: not cost-effective). The best strategy by far would simply be dark swarm coupled with ultra/ling.
As a matter of fact, I just played a game a few days ago where my protoss opponent cannon-turtled with 3 gas bases and massed a full supply of carriers. I suicided about 4 overlords to see the mass stargates and carriers, and just tailored my army accordingly:
4 queens w/ ensnare researched
6 defilers
Drones
2 scourge for each carrier that I saw
Rest = crackling + ultra
I had denied my opponent scouting the whole game by placing overlord + scourge mines around his base perimeter. I sacrificed my queens to ensnare and parasite the carrier fleet, then plagued them as they left the base. It was then a simple matter to scourge-clone the whole bunch, and he GGed as my swarms went down over his cannons.
Now for a few general words on strategy against turtles:
This will seem counter-intuitive, but a turtling opponent actually gives him/herself the initiative with regard to pushing out. After all, there is no way in hell you are going to launch a successful attack if they are committed to the turtling strategy. What you should then do is match your army to counter theirs. Take every expansion on the map, even if you don't mine just yet. You also don't need as many workers as you otherwise would had your opponent taken a more aggressive stance. As soon as you hit 200/200 supply, start sinking about a 1/3 of your resourcing into production buildings (be they hatcheries, gateways, factories, etc.). Bank the rest of it. Seeing as your opponent has chosen to remain on limited bases, you will likely max out far ahead of them. The rest of the game comes down to you biding your time, and getting more unit production capabilities and a larger amount in the bank. When they push out, you should hopefully have the correct unit composition to ensure that you don't get steamrolled completely, and you can use your 20-or-so hatcheries/gateways/factories to overrun the push.
On a closing note, the advice given in this thread is precisely the reason why turtles are overwhelmingly terran. A 200/200 supply mech army with full upgrades can and will destroy every other maxed out army of any race, given the right composition of goliaths and tanks. Great care must be taken to use spells efficiently so that the non-turtle has a hope of stopping the inexorable push towards his/her bases, as units alone are likely to be insufficient.
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EPT
